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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:18 AM
Original message
If Fl and MI primary votes had benefited Barrack
Barracknids would be howling to seat them, as is, and how undemocratic it was to disenfranchise voters and all sorts of hypocritical shit.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nope. I'd be supporting Howard Dean
the way I always do. I think more of Dean than Obama. Sorry.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Word
n/t
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. Same here
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. Yep...
:shrug:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. The same guy who is for a revote and who has said in the past seating them was going to happen?
Me too!
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. You're being very selective in your hearing.
I know Howard Dean. He was my guv for 11 years. I can assure you that the seating of the delegates as is, is not going to happen. There is no one in politics who sticks to their guns more than Howard. He'll find a solution, but it won't be one that give either candidate an unfair advantage or that rewards FL or MI for their rule breaking.
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
42. Sorry, but this was not Howard Dean's finest moment.
He's kicking himself in the ass now. He got played by the R's, and big time. If he has a re-vote, he looks like a spineless idiot. If he doesn't have a revote, several million Democrats have been disenfranchised by their own party. Great!!! :eyes:
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sueragingroz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. yep.
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featherman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
3. Not true... I'm a Democrat and support the party rules
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 09:24 AM by featherman
I would be angry at the FL and MI DP's for willfully causing such a mess and pushing for a re-vote, caucus or convention so my guy could get his qualified delegates
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. The rules were clear
No candidate visits to these states!
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. That isn't even close to what the rules stated. So much for clarity. nt
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. Nope
and neither would the party allow such a thing.

Why are there so many threads that not only condone, but encourage and promote cheating by the Clinton campaign? :shrug:
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. From what I'm reading/hearing, there will be no do-over down here...n/t
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. we read last night
about a possible mail-in vote monmouth...I'll tell you-my two daughters and my son-in-law didn't even bother voting-I did only because I didn't want them to take my name off the rolls like they did in 2000 to me down here in PBC
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. I could live with that..and by the way...I hear Susan Bucher is going to
go up against Arthur Anderson...He's soooo inept..
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. and we had such hope for him when he came in
ya know? He turned out to be another wolf in sheep's clothes-just another GOPerative who will do anything to help republicans steal elections down here-they have ruined this state and what is sad is they don't even care as long as they win-scurrilous scumbags
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. Absolutely. To tell the truth though, I think he's in way over his head. n/t
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
39. Right. Florida's primary mess is all Obama's fault. In 2007 he unilaterally forced
the DNC to institute harsh sanctions on the state to which no other candidate agreed.

Is that the way it happened or did all the candidates agree last year with the DNC's sanctions against Florida and Michigan only to have one candidate change positions after the "early" primaries/caucuses ended with South Carolina?
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Sulawesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
7. How can you argue MI was a fair primary. seriously.
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Im not arguing that at all

I was just making an observation about the hypocrisy.
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Sulawesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Nobody from the Obama camp wants to seat MI...no hypocrisy.
Now if HRC thinks a do-over in FL is ever ok, that is hypocrisy, because that is tacit admission that the original vote was never fair
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
32. I'm for Obama and I want to seat the Michigan delegates
as soon as Michigan arranges to hold a primary or caucus to select eligible delegates to the DNC convention.
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
8. Then they REALLY would not have counted. (By definition)
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
10. Very true. n/t
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
12. This is another of those "Obama would have done the same, if..." theories,
like the IWR, like throwing the kitchen sink at your Democratic opponent, now like Florida/Michigan.

Where are the instances where the Obama supporters defending him with the weak "well Hillary would have done it too, if..." defense?
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. As Certain As Death And Taxes
Take that to the bank. K & R
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
15. My position would be the same.
I would push for a compromise position and if MI anfd FL kept refusing even though it's their fault where we are, I would take Dean's initial position (because it is the right position).
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
16. You're wrong and you're certain- the worst possible combination
I can assure you that, for many of us, that isn't even close to the truth. Hillary's efforts in this regard are appalling and shameful. They are the very thing that has pushed me over the edge into having absolutely no respect for her.

Anyway, that's a very scientifically conceived and well substantiated argument you've got there.

Nice worthless opinion.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
21. It doesn't really matter at this point if were counted or not
Because come the GE the after effects of this in-fighting, and, Nelson and Crist trying to help the folks of florida have there vote counted but the DNC isn't listening I hate to think, but it wont go over very well for our party.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
22. Bullshit.
In you dreamworld scenario, Hillary would be calling to adhere to the rules.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
23. Uh...
we wouldn't be having this discussion if they had benefitted Barack. Mr. Dean would, magically, have figured out a way to count them.

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
25. Not at all
I'm against the unfair results of invalid primaries being counted for anyone, regardless of who might benefit.
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
26. ONE "R"
Look, I can't spell worth a hoot so it's isn't that I'm being the spelling monitor. But come one, this late in the game, a DEMOCRAT really needs to know how to spell the man's name.
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
27. Nope
Don't try to legitimize Clinton's desire to change the rules by accusing Obama of wanting to do so in a "what-if scenario."

That is insulting, illogical, speculative, and not based in precedent.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. I live in florida and I don't care if our votes count or not
Because I'm tired of the fighting. And whether you believe me or not, Florida will go red come GE. Y'all really don't know how this is playing out with the DNC/FDP/FRP, Crist and Martinez. If you lived here you could see how this is all working out and how all of the sudden Crist and Martinez is stepping in. Again, I'll stress the fact I don't care if our votes are counted or not because it wont matter in the big picture.
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. Crist will probably be McCain's VP
Crist is making himself a convenient hero. I agree with you, FL is likely to go red no matter what happens to the primary count.

I would have liked this to have been worked out in early January. I wish it would have been.

I love your state btw. When I was a kid we vacationed in Sarasota. It has been my favorite place for as long as I can remember.

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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. Gore1FL That's what I see as well
That's why I think Crist is making the rounds on TV. It's obvious to me why he's doing this to be the "HERO". And, I think he wants to be the VP candidate. Remember, Crist is very well liked in Florida so that would help with the vote.

However, I'm just curious if Crist is the VP candidate what skeletons will be found in his closet. He's never been married. When he ran for Gov rumor was he was a closeted gay man. He has a girlfriend but I think that's for show. I'll say it shouldn't make a difference whether he is or not but in politics people will use it for slime and mud slinging.
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. wrong..........he has been married
Crist's divorce is on file at the Pinellas County clerk's office. It shows Crist married Amanda Morrow in Delray Beach in July 1979. Seven months later, the marriage ended. The couple had no children.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/15/State/To_tricky_quest...
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. bluedog, I think people thought he had never been married
Anyway, there was a rumor in the part of florida I live in about him. It doesn't really matter but in politics I guess it does.
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. It'll get the GOP base in a tizzy!
but I agree it should be the last thing to worry about--right after "does he have a pulse."
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
29. No, Obama can't get away with being power hungry like Clinton can
people expect it from Clinton but Obama doesn't wear it as well. I don't think Obama would have pulled this kind of crap.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
30. Thank you for telling me how I feel and what I think. As an Obamist, I have defended Clinton...
I believe in playing fair. I even defended Bush that one time back in 2002 when he said something right (something about the sky being blue, as I recall). The thing about Florida and Michigan is that they went out of turn after receiving ample warnings that they shouldn't and couldn't work outside the DNC system.

They tried to break the system by going outside of the system. They tried and they failed. That's okay. But the failure is complete now and some of us want their decisions to count in the convention anyway. I want Florida to get a chance to vote, even tho current polls show that my candidate will lose Florida by 15 points.

I'm sorry that you can't accept fair play. Frankly, you don't have the ability to choose otherwise.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
35. This is 100% true. However, the supporters, as testified by this post, have no problem with...
...yaknow, outright lying.
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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
36. No. This has nothing to do with the candidates. This has to do with continued stupidity!!!!
by Florida DEMOCRATIC Party leaders who agreed to this despite the well-known consequences!!!!!!!


The DNC should grow a set and enforce the decision or else we'll see this kind of crap again.

The votes won't likely change the outcome which will be decided by SDs.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
37. Well, I wouldn't...
and anyone on my side of the aisle that would do so would be an idiot in my book.

Everyone was clear on the rules before the contest started. Trying to change them in the middle of the contest is like starting a game of golf and then, halfway through getting your ass kicked, trying to change it so that the highest number of strokes wins. It is a bullshit argument regardless of who makes it, and anyone arguing that the delegates should be seated as is just wants to cheat so their candidate wins.



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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
44. true that!
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NastyRiffraff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
46. I support Hillary, but I support Howard Dean on this issue
As much as I'd like to see Hillary win, I have to go with Dean here. It would be a horrible precedent if he allowed the rules to be changed for these two states. After all, FL & MI decided to flaunt the rules KNOWING what would happen. God knows, Dean and the DNC gave them more than one unequivocal warning.

I think Dean has been very good about not showing favoritism to any candidate, which is what he should do until the time of his own vote.
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