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hedgetrimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:16 PM
Original message
Can I have an agreement?
I really do not want to vote for Kerry. It is not even a matter of holding my nose. The very essence of a country that I was raised and educated to believe in does not exist in that man or the current pResident.

I find ourselves as a nation upon a precipice with the weight of anti-democracy, corporate rule and oligarchy pressing on our hands which hold the constitution. This weight is attempting to destroy that constitution and let it and ourselves fall off the precipice thereby collapsing this nation into a form of feudalistic oligarchy.

The people of this nation are lethargic consumers and care not for what is transpiring around them as long as they can continue to consume. Consume they do, the constant barrage of misinformation, lies and cover-ups. 17% of the eligible voters voted for bush in 2000, times that by 2 and add the fringe votes and you've got the voting public.... the rest of this country is asleep behind the wheel.

With that I feel a need for an agreement, an agreement where a vote for Kerry will not lessen our burden, but will hold us from the ascent. The need for us as a people to not look to Kerry as a savior but as a chance to fight back. A moment where the tiny portion of this country that does vote halts the slide off the precipice. And in that moment, our moment we begin to groom our candidate, we begin to groom our party for the country and Representatives we want and can get.

I do not agree with Kerry, I find him to be yet another pawn for the power brokers and not for the people. He is not a savior, he is not the answer to the plight of our people... he is an acidic pause that will continue to corrode at the foundations of the common man. And in knowing that, the agreement comes... that we do not accept or expect Kerry to save this nation yet we will vote for him to halt the ascent. We will be critical of his acidic corrosion, we will call him on his anti-common man actions, and yes we will applaud his pro-common man actions... and in all of this we agree to not lose sight of the goal where we work to find our candidates and bring them forward as the party we want, the nation we want and be the beacon of ideals put forth by our constitution and bill of rights. True patriots oppose Bush!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. So who the Hell should I vote for then?
And how many states does this phantom candidate plan on winning?
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hedgetrimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I did not think it was to hard to understand what I was saying.
There is no phantom candidate ... When Kerry is the acidic pause we find someone who really represents the people who can neutralize the corrosion of our nation.

Please take some time, remove yourself from being condescending, read my thread again and if you think I have misled you in some way or another please let me know how I could have better stated my position.

Thank you. - many blessings.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well for one thing, the use of the word "we"
Speak for yourself- I dont have the same negative revulsion of the man as you do.

I wanted Clark, but I like Kerry and I dont share your outlook on Democrats. I voted for Kerry in the primary after Clark bowed out- and I will vote for him again in 2004- and I cant WAIT.

Its very easy to understand your point- I've heard it a million times...you are discouraging people from voting for the man or giving him a fair shake- a bunch of gloom & doom hypotheticals that have nothing to do with his postions on the issues...



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hedgetrimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You are short-sighting me.
I did not say not to vote for him, please I implore you one last time to remove the goggles of misinterpretation and read the words I've used in my statement, not what you want to read. I at no point discouraged anyone from voting for him. I said that he was a halt to a slide, not a savior and we, you included, need to build a peoples replacement to the status quo during the Kerry administration who better fits the people and not the power brokers.

I am sorry if you are offended by my lack of entrancement of the situation i.e. Kerry.... the peoples of this country deserve better and it is our responsibility to give that to ourselves.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Totally disagree. In fact, I think Kerry will be exactly the right man
for this time. If I beleived in predestiny, I would save that God planned for Kerry to be delivered to America to fight the deciding battle against the dark forces of evil. Why you ask?

(1) A man whose character was tested in war and came out a hero.
(2) A man who fought to end a war that was unjust...and can take large credit for helping to bring it to an end.
(3) Became a federal prosecutor
(4) Took on Iran/Contra and BCCI
(5) Voted to further a progressive/liberal agenda in Congress

Is Kerry gonna single-handedly change things overnight and without help? No. But he will be the turning point and he will be the man that will lead us back to a sane and just path for this country.

I know no man alive that is wartless, maybe you do. But I'll gladly fall behind Kerry and work to make this a better country. Hope you will too.
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Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I, too, have hope in Kerry.
For myself, maybe that's really only a measure of my desperation.

That being said, if it turns out that Kerry seems more than he is, will you be critical of him (while still trying to make things better), or will you criticize the criticizers?
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. Very few
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 02:55 AM by fujiyama
are under any illusion that Kerry is some sort of savior.

However, many people here (rightly) believe that in the situation we have now, we can do much better (in terms of who is sitting in the WH), and the only realistic way of any improvement is to vote for Kerry, a man that has served in the senate for many years, and has voted more often in favor of the "common man" (I find the term somewhat condescending) than not.

Kerry isn't perfect. I myself would have appreciated a more clear rationale for the war in Iraq as well as a more candid discussion regarding the current hellish situation.

People had a chance to vote, to make their decision, in the primary process. Kerry ended up winning the number of delegates required to secure a nomination. That is all there is to it.

I would urge progressives to vote for Kerry (especially in a swing state), but not get lazy were he to get elected, but rather hold his feet to the fire. Make it clear you want a say in those he appoints in his cabinet. Another very good idea is to help get progressive/ liberal members of the House elected -- H. Dean is doing a great job mobilizing people wrt to this goal.

Kerry won't bring a revolution, but he'll be an improvement. At the moment, that's more than we can imagine with the current administration.
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hedgetrimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. agreed.
That was my intent with this thread.

I did not intend anything condescending in my usage of the term "common man" it was the closest I found for myself to refer to the man Thomas Paine was refering to in "The Rights of Man". In which he was rebuttling another work that was pro-rich elititism post French revolution.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. It Seems To Me, SIr
That what you are saying is that you will vote for Sen. Kerry in hopes of slowing the race to disaster for the people our country is currently on, and hope to use the brake upon that speed his election will effect to try and change the course events are careening along. That is an excellent resolve, Sir, that many here, myself included, share whole-heartedly.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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hedgetrimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. It Seems To Me, Sir
That we have an agreement.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE FUEDALISTIC BASTARDS!"
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hedgetrimmer...well said and I totally agree...in fact
I have more or less come to the same opinion about the "acidic pause presidency of Kerry" and this has allowed me to be able to cast my vote for him come Nov.

It will perhaps buy us some time to get the party organized & energized.....I am with you here all the way Hedgetrimmer....I totally *get* your post ...it was very well thought out IMO.

Peace & Hope
DR
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hedgetrimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Thank you for an agreement.
I do agree with another poster who say's we need to start the process now. I believe that is what Kucinich is doing by holding fast to his platform and not quiting. We also can bring those platform idealogies to the DNC and have it as an agenda upon the table come the election. I find that at no point can we quit, wether we face gain, lose or stalemate.

many blessings.
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gate of the sun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. I saw Scott Ritter
last Saturday night . His speech was basically a plea to vote Bush out.He feels if Bush wins again that this country is done. Democracy over with. He recommended voting for Kerry, though he said personally he despises him. He feels Kerry is only a margin better than Bush "cut from the same cloth" is what he said. He seemed pretty desperate about the state of democracy in the US. He gave a good talk. Well I came home and spoke to Hedgetrimmer about this talk and after some good thought he agreed. He agreed that voting for Kerry would keep us from going over the abyss so to speak, I have been saying I would vote for Kerry even though I am not at all happy with him. After talking about Ritter's talk Hedgetrimmer felt it was true better to go with Kerry for any chance of saving our country.

I agree with Hedgetrimmer. Kerry doesn't represent me or many of the people I know. I would hope we could find someone to groom as a President for the people. One who would repeal the patriot act and restore our civil rights. One who would repeal Nafta and the Wto. Someone who will restore jobs back into this country. One who would bring accessible health care to all. One who would stop the senseless and unjustified Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. One who would feel that truth was more important than playing politics. Politics is just a game and the rules are only agreed upon by the elite. I could go on and on. I just really wanted to say that I hope we can find a better candidate next time and work to bring to the world to a better place. I know many of you will take offense to my words.


There are some of us here on Du still hoping for a better world. Not just a marginal candidate that people mostly vote for because he's not bush.



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Bill Todd Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
12. No, I don't agree
And I can't for the life of me understand why people keep asking me to.

It's early April. The party platform has yet to be set. This is the time to be vigorously disagreeing with the direction it seems likely to go in, while there's still time to affect it.

The time to ask for the kind of agreement you describe above is November 2nd (not that I'll necessarily agree then, either, but I'll at least consider the request appropriately timed). What we should be doing right now is everything we can think of to try to make sure that when November 2nd rolls around, there won't be any need to make that request.

- bill
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Then DO something...
These endless Kerry-bashing threads and pledges to vote for Kerry "only if" won't help you achieve your goals. Seems to me, DU would be an ideal forum for meeting with like-minded indivuals and planning strategies for moving Kerry leftward.

On the other hand, if you just want to grouse, that's fine. But acknowledge it for what it is.

Just a thought.

:hippie:
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DaveSZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. hedgetrimmer,
Tell me how we bring back the country more to the left if we lose the entire Federal Court system to the Falwell wing of the GOP.




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Bill Todd Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. This is a Kerry-bashing thread?
I thought it was an ABB thread: that's certainly what the original post is, albeit voicing what I'd consider to be entirely appropriate distaste at feeling one has no option but to take that tack.

So I felt it appropriate to make it clear that there's no reason whatsoever to think one has to take that tack 7 months before the general election. And I'll be inclined to make that response every time I stumble upon another ABB thread that seems utterly ignorant of the possibility that we don't have to settle for the current Kerry at this point in time: we instead can work to bring him, and the party, around before the election to eliminate the need to make an unpalatable choice on November 2nd (and the way things are going right now, any choice then looks like it's shaping up to be unpalatable).

Being a newcomer to DU, I've been keeping an eye out to see what more seasoned participants who seem to feel largely as I do have been doing on the organizing front, but have yet to find anything. Perhaps that simply indicates that DU is all talk and no action, which would hardly be unusual - but I'd still expect to see an occasional pointer to a more activist site if that's the case. I suppose there's always the option of actively supporting Nader or Kucinich, but the former doesn't directly address my desire for change within the Democratic party and the latter seems too likely to result in just a pat on the head and a brush-off at the convention.

But even if DU is all talk, it still seems like an appropriate place for people who disagree with the current attitude of Kerry and the party to make that public: there's not much tolerance for doing so at the DNC blog, for example, and while I have corresponded with the DNC to make sure they know exactly how I feel I don't think that addresses quite the same goals as visible public dissent. Stirring the public pot at least helps bring out those people of similar mind who might otherwise just cringe quietly in the corner if they didn't know that they weren't alone, and if enough of them surface publicly then the party will have to start to take notice even if we take no additional action besides voicing discontent sufficient to threaten the outcome in November.

But I'd be sincerely grateful for suggestions about other avenues to pursue along with this Internet discourse, should you be aware of any.

- bill
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hedgetrimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I can shake on that...
Start right now to redirect the current agendas, why wait. Beautiful.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. that's largely where I'm at.
It's crucial that we keep after whoever is there. No breaks, no honeymoons.
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hedgetrimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Agreed. As a friend of mine once said,
" I do not care who the elected official is, I will be just as critical of one to the next. For the power they have is capable of screwing me."
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