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Clinton won Ohio? 12,000 registered dems produce 28,000 dem votes.

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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:17 AM
Original message
Clinton won Ohio? 12,000 registered dems produce 28,000 dem votes.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=203&topic_id=498484&mesg_id=498484

Remember good old Warren County? The 2004 Terrorist
lock down of the vote count.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200...

snip

"From what I understand, it's a pretty widespread trend across the state. I want to be optimistic and think that a lot of people have seen the light. In the back of my mind, though, I think it's an attempt to dictate who the Democratic candidates should be. If there was a concerted effort to vote in the Democratic primary, I don't believe they (Republicans) will vote for the person they think is the strongest."

Clermont and Warren counties are heavily Republican, yet almost as many people voted Democrat as Republican.

Of Clermont County's 128,128 registered voters, 37,714 are registered Republicans and 14,496 are registered Democrats. With all precincts counted, 26,279 people had cast Democratic ballots and 28,032 had cast Republican ballots.

Warren County has 12,440 registered Democrats and 41,377 registered Republicans. With all precincts reporting, that county was reporting 27,855 Democratic ballots cast and 28,683 Republican.

*********************


These #s are so big that just cross over vote might not explain the totals.

Without a doubt the republicans want to run against Hillary.

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hillary will fight any investigation of this
And they'll use the same methods to steal the election from her in the fall.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I wonder, if Obama loses will your sig change to "60% behind Hillary"?
Just wondering.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Nope.
It will probably be something like this:

Proud to be 100% behind Dennis Kucinich ... um ... 90% behind John Edwards ... ok ... 80% behind Barack Obama ... aw crap
Proud to be... 100% AGAINST John McCain




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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. No need for an investigation.
26,044. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Warren County.

25,887. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Clermont County.

There are the votes there to produce these results.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. Rush Limpballs, Laura, Neil Boortz, had all been exhorting their
listeners to vote for Hillary--as had that local RW asshole Cunningham in Cincinnati. I wouldn't be too proud, Hillary.
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I'm starting to think Rush wants her to be president
so he can crap on her for 4-8 years. He'll have the only secure job in American that way.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. he's afraid that his true nature will come out
in one of his drug-induced hazes ... and he will, on air, tell the President to "take the bone out of your nose" ...
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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Rush wants Hillary as the nominee ...

They've got years of smear on Hillary. It's simply a matter of going into reruns. People will believe as soon as it's said because they were already convinced of it and the Clinton's dragged the whole thing out instead of responding to it and fessing up to the few things that they were actually guilty of.

Limbaugh et al, also know that the right wing will NOT show up to vote for McCain (at their own bidding). They've painted themselves into a corner. But they can effectively convince the right wing to show up and vote AGAINST Hillary in a general election.

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. His career was catapulted by Bill's Presidency. His numbers waned
after Bush took office. Of COURSE he wants her to be President. He's even admitted that if Obama is the nominee/President, he runs the daily risk of being accused of racism--no more "Barack The Magic Negro".
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. No doubt the right wing nuts crossed over but the #s are so big ..
... that I doubt "they" account for all of the vote. I would bet
that the BOEs had something to do w/ the outcome.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. don't forget the theoretical, alleged disappointment of McCain being their new
standard-bearer ...
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. Ah Tommy You Are Up Against It But Good Keep Fighting Baby
Momma would want that! Still hoping I get to be your FAV!
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Did I ever tell you that you are my Fav?


I got to spend some time w/ Steph last weekend.

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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. If only it were a solid argument.
26,044. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Warren County.

25,887. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Clermont County.

There are the votes there to produce these results.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
11. K/R.
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
14. I bet Hillary believes
those numbers would be there for the GE.

They would VAPORIZE for the GE, or turn up in the mc ain't column.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. They were there for John Kerry.
26,044. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Warren County.

25,887. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Clermont County.

There are the votes there to produce these results.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
35. So more people voted in the primary than a general election?
Clarmont Primary Vote (Dem) 2008 26,279
Clarmont Vote Kerry 2004 G.E. 25,887
(however a good case can be made the 2004 # was manipulated to
be smaller)

Warren Primary Vote (Dem) 2008 27,855
Warren Vote Kerry 2004 G.E. 26,044

(however a good case can be made the 2004 # was manipulated to
be smaller)
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. There were nearly as many votes statewide period.
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 11:17 AM by Zynx
Also, these are very rapidly growing counties, particularly Warren. Warren grows 4% per year.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. Granted Warren is growing.
But the #s seem troubling to me.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. Okay let's do some detailed math on this one.
There were about 2.2 million votes in the Democratic Primary. There were about 2.7 million in the general election in 2004 for John Kerry. That works out to be 80% of the GE turnout.

Warren County produced 27,711 votes in the primary versus 26,044 in the GE in 2004. This is 106% of GE turnout. However, apply 4% growth per year over 4 years to our 2004 Warren County vote in keeping with population trends. We get a projected 2008 vote in the GE of 30,467, all other things held constant. Now apply the math. You get 91% of GE turnout in this case.

That's still higher to be sure, but as Warren county is a middle class suburban county, their voter turnout tends to be higher than in more working class areas consistently.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. You very well might be right but:
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 12:15 PM by Botany
Using 2004 Ohio vote data for any sort of baseline is problematic
because of what happened.

The turn % out for a primary v G.E. still seems high (granted 2008
in dem turn outs in primary have be very strong)

With Warren county being a "bedroom community" for growth I
think a good % of the growth in Warren county might be young
family members who are too young to vote.

Pennsylvania might let us see if the cross over factor is big or
not ... closed primary.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. The turnout in other states has been similar.
Georgia for example was about 77% of GE turnout.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
15. THE SAME FUCKING TWO PLAYERS!! Where the hell is Brunner on this?
God dammit to hell!

I HATE Warren County, bunch of THUGS, and Clermont is no better. Someone needs to throw their BOEs overboard and hire some new people. Preferably those not affiliated with DIEBOLD.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. If only this argument had more backing.
26,044. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Warren County.

25,887. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Clermont County.

There are the votes there to produce these results.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #20
44. The votes in red counties of Oho are where they manufactured votes in the 04 election.
Run up the totals in red counties to account for the manufactured results.

They adopted this strategy after Gore foolishly failed to challenge
the results in Red counties of Florida, which is where most of the
undercounted Dems were, because Republican county officials were doing
the undercounting (duh!) Which is why Gore lost.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. How does this undermine my argument?
If anything it would seem to bolster it.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. Thank you for your sanity.
It's as if there's collective amnesia around her on behalf of the Clintonistas.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. It did not do anything to undermine my argument, however.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Well, you pretty much blew off post #42.
The Texas evidence is stronger than the Ohio evidence, because the vote was closer. You blew it off and essentially said "I don't care, people vote for lots of reasons blah blah blah."

Look, the GOP crossovers in Ohio didn't give Clinton her victory. She was going to win the state even if she did it fair and square, and we'd be foolish to argue otherwise. But there were certainly enough GOP crossovers to rob Obama of delegates in strategic congressional districts, and certainly enough GOP crossovers to widen her margin of victory in my state.

Rush Limbaugh endorsed Hillary, and so did Bill Cunningham. Wingnut sycophants followed their gods and switched registrations. It happened in larger numbers then you're willing to concede, but I really do know what's going on where I live. So does Botany. So does Mod Mom.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Had the GOP cross over vote not existed at all, Hillary would have won the state by more.
If it were a closed primary, she would have won the state by more than 10. All evidence points in that direction. It is absurd to say that some Republican cross-over is fine, but some isn't. I know of plenty of Republicans who call Obama "The Black Dukakis" because they think he will be easier to beat.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. You know it.
Maybe you have to have actually lived in this area to understand how this happened or something.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
54. HERE'S A NUMBER OF ARTICLES INCLUDING COMMENTS BY BRUNNER:
Turned away at poll? Click here
Some are told to wait - or come back later
BY JESSICA BROWN AND BARRETT J. BRUNSMAN | [email protected] | [email protected]

-snip
In that heavily Republican county, officials weren't prepared for the high number of Democratic ballots requested. Some voters waited for more than an hour for new ballots to be delivered; others were asked to come back later or asked to go to the county Board of Elections to vote.

The reason: a wave of "crossover" voting, in which normally Republican voters asked for Democratic ballots. In Clermont County, turnout surged to 43 percent Tuesday - compared with just 31 percent in the 2004 presidential primary.

-snip

Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner said there was also a "crossover problem" in Akron and elsewhere in Summit County where many Republicans and non-enrolled Ohioans voted Democratic.

-snip

Of Clermont County's 128,128 registered voters, 37,714 are registered Republicans and 14,496 are registered Democrats. With all precincts counted, 26,279 people had cast Democratic ballots and 28,032 had cast Republican ballots.

Warren County has 12,440 registered Democrats and 41,377 registered Republicans. With all precincts reporting, that county was reporting 27,855 Democratic ballots cast and 28,683 Republican.

-snip
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080305/NEWS01/803050380&template=printpicart



GOP voters crossing over in large numbers

Posted by Tom Ott, Michael Scott, Joe Wagner & Maggi Martin March 04, 2008 14:51PM
Categories: At the polls

Poll watchers throughout Ohio are noting large numbers of Republican voters crossing over to vote in the Democratic Primary between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.

In the Republican roost of Chagrin Falls, veteran poll worker Liz McFadden was amazed at the number of people jumping the party's ship. Democrats accounted for 70 percent of the voters in her precinct, one of seven at the village's high school.

"That's a complete reversal of what it normally is, even more so," she said. "I've never seen a switch like this."

The defectors had motives both pure and sinister.

-snip
http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2008/03/gop_voters_crossing_over_in_la.html

FROM OSU ELECTION LAW:

Cross-over voting under Ohio law

March 4, 2008

Edward B. Foley
Director, Election Law @ Moritz
Robert M. Duncan/Jones Day Designated Professor of Law
Moritz College of Law


Blogs at both the Plain Dealer and Dispatch are reporting Republican cross-over votes in the Democratic candidate for Senator Clinton on the ground that she would be an easier nominee for Senator McCain to beat. It is unclear how widespread this phenomenon is and whether, if calculable, could make a difference in either the statewide total popular vote or the awarding of delegates between Senators Clinton and Obama. There is also the question whether it is legal, and if not, whether it is remediable in any way.

Although it is widely reported that Ohio permits Republicans to vote in the Democratic primary (and vice versa), that is not technically true. Ohio law does permit voters to switch party affiliation on the day of the primary, but it has a rather awkward mechanism that attempts to ascertain that the switch is sincere—and to prevent insincere “party-raiding” of the kind that (as described above) is being reported today.

Section 3513.19 of the Ohio Revised Code states that it is the “duty” of poll workers in Ohio “to challenge the right of person to vote” in a particular party’s primary if a poll worker “doubts” the person’s eligibility based on the ground (among others) that the person is "not affiliated with or is not a member of the political party whose ballot the person desires to vote.” The same section further specifies that the poll worker is to determine the voter’s previous party affiliation by examining the voting records of the past two years. If those records show the voter to be a Republican, for example, then before giving the voter a Democratic ballot in the current primary, the statute then directs the poll worker to have the voter sign a “statement, made under penalty of election falsification, that the person desires to be affiliated with and supports the principles of the political party whose primary ballot the person desires to vote.”

This statement is supposed to be the test of the voter’s sincerity in switching party affiliation. Section 3513.20 of the Code make clear that a voter who refuses to sign the statement is to receive a provisional rather than regular ballot. Indeed, even if the voter is willing to sign the statement, but the majority of poll workers at the precinct believe the voter is not sincere in switching parties, then the poll workers are to give the voter a provisional rather than regular ballot.

-snip
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/freefair/articles.php?ID=367

From the Warren County BOE (Warren is a Republican stronghold outside of Cincinnati where the faux "Level 10 Homeland Security shutdown of the BOE occurred in 2004) web page and found that the democrats voted at 223% of the total Dems in the county. Some turnout!

BALLOTS CAST - TOTAL 57,396
REGISTERED VOTERS - DEMOCRATIC 12,440
REGISTERED VOTERS - REPUBLICAN 41,377
BALLOTS CAST - REPUBLICAN 28,683
BALLOTS CAST - DEMOCRATIC 27,855
source: warren county BOE http://snipurl.com/212z3

http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2008/03/ballot_1.html

Board of Elections Director Jane Platten said Democratic ballots ran out at the Grantwood Golf Course in Solon at 6:15 p.m. "A significant line of people waited 45 minutes to vote," she said. Nobody was turned away, Platten said.

There also was up to a 30-minute delay at the Lonnie Burten Recreation Center, on East 46th Street, in Cleveland, while more ballots were delivered, Platten said.

At least one precinct at Olmsted Falls High School ran out of Democratic ballots, according to Keith Smith, 27. He said he waited about a half-hour before leaving to tend to his family.

from an election integrity list serv:

On Monday Rush Limbaugh was advocating a "strategery" to his
listeners, suggesting that they should vote for Hillary where
possible to prolong Democratic in-fighting, reduce the coffers of the
Democratic nominee by having donors split between two candidates, and
force them to focus on each other rather than bloodying McCain all
the way until the convention.

I'm not at all surprised by crossover in Ohio because that state,
much like Harrisburg, PA where I currently live, is saturated with
stations that carry Limbaugh. I can get his hateful, ignorant
ranting on no less than 6 stations in and around the Harrisburg area.

I'm actually surprised no major news outlets have been talking about
this potential influence on the Ohio and Texas results since they
were so out-of-step with where the party is moving.

Ohio GOP roots for Hillary
BY HOWARD WILKINSON | [email protected]
One of the worst-kept secrets of the Ohio presidential primary is that Republican party leaders have a candidate they are rooting for on the Democratic side.

Her name is Hillary Clinton, and they believe that if she wins the Ohio primary and goes on to become the Democratic nominee, she will be the one who unites their dispirited and divided party and give them their best chance of keeping the White House this fall.



It is a belief that the Clinton campaign says is wrong-headed and they will campaign across the state for the next three weeks making the argument that their battle-tested, experienced candidate is the only one who can go toe-to-toe with John McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee this fall.

She’ll need to do some convincing, fast. For Clinton, Ohio’s March 4 primary is looking more and more critical.

-snip

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080213/NEWS01/302130097







Tuesday, March 4

Don't Call Ohio Too Soon
That's my advice to the news media tonight, in the event of a close Democratic primary. As returns start to come in from Ohio this evening, we should keep in mind circumstances that will probably result in more outstanding ballots on Election Night than in other states, and maybe even more than is typical for Ohio. If that's true, a margin that appears insurmountable on paper -- even with all precincts nominally reported -- may actually be smaller than it appears.

Here are the big things that might cause there to be a large number of yet-to-be-counted ballots than usual on election night:

- Provisional Ballots. Ohio heavily relies on provisional ballots, which are used for people who've moved, who don't have required ID, and whose names don't appear on the registration list when they go to vote, among other things. Most of us probably remember the delay in calling the 2004 election, when Bush led Kerry by some 136,000 votes with approximately 158,000 provisional ballots left to be verified and counted. When these ballots were eventually counted, they cut Bush's margin by about 18,000 votes. In November 2006, an even higher percentage of Ohio voters cast provisional ballots, over 3%. In light of Ohio's new ID rules, still not completely familiar to many voters, and potential problems with its statewide registration list, we can expect lots of provisionals today as well. Voters have 10 days after the election to bring in their information, and it will be a while after that before we know how many of the provisionals will be counted and who they're cast for.

- Residual Votes. These are ballots that don't register a valid vote, at least when they're run through automatic tabulators. They include undervotes (a ballot that doesn't register a choice) and overvotes (a ballot that registers more than the allowed number of choices). Both can sometimes result from ambiguous marks with paper-based voting systems, but some of the undervotes may be recoverable through a manual recount. Under Ohio law, a ballot on which a voter circles the candidates name or makes a mark with an instrument that can't be recognized by tabulating equiment should eventually be counted. As I explained in Sunday's post, we can expect a significant number of residual votes in Ohio today, because a large number of voters will be voting with central-count optical scan equipment that doesn't allow voters to check for mistakes before casting their votes. Cuyahoga County will be especially hard hit, but other counties will also be affected given that voters in touchscreen counties are allowed to vote a paper ballot on request. If the race winds up being tight, it will be important to know how many residual votes there are -- especially in the Cleveland area.

-SNIP
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/blogs/tokaji/2008/03/dont-call-ohio-too-soon.html
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
16. So, when Hillary gets crossovers it's fraud. When Obama gets crossovers, it's inspirational....nt
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Depends what the motive is for crossing over
There are Republicans who genuinely support one of the two Democrats because they are fed up with Bush. There are also Republicans who will probably vote for McCain in the fall but prefer one Democrat over the other and want to hedge their bets. In Columbus, I met some Republicans who were torn between Obama and McCain for both the primary and the general, and they probably voted for Obama in the primary because there was no point in voting for McCain.

I don't doubt that Obama has benefited from some Republicans who won't vote for him in November but want to bring Hillary down any way they can, just as some Democrats voted for McCain in the 2000 primaries because Gore pretty much had a lock on the nomination and they figured if the Republicans won they'd rather have McCain as president than Bush. This is not ideal, but it's not the same thing as an orchestrated campaign designed to get Republicans to cross over and vote in our primary solely for strategic reasons.

Given the dynamics of the race Tuesday night, I think it's fair to say that most of the strategic voters who voted in our primary went for Clinton, because a) there was an organized effort to get them to do so, and b) regardless of who they think will be the weaker opponent, keeping Clinton in the race was in their interest at that point because it kept our primaries going for longer.

I don't think Obama would have won Ohio without strategic crossovers, but he might have won the Texas primary if it weren't for Rush.
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. Personally, I don't think they care who wins. They're happy enough watching us kick our own asses
That's their end game here.
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ctaylors6 Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. I think you're right. I think many Rs crossed over simply to keep our primary going
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
18. Nice fuckin' try.
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 10:30 AM by Zynx
26,044. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Warren County.

25,887. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Clermont County.

There are the votes there to produce these results.

There is no huge disparity here and exit polling indicated that Hillary did best among Democrats.
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Ouch. That's what you call utterly destroying someone's argument.
nice.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Spreading rampant misinformation and lies is not acceptable.
I'm so close to reporting the author of this thread if they don't properly apologize for twisting the data without looking into it.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
45. You trust figures from the heartland of 2004 election fraud? nt
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. If anything Democratic voter supression during '04 would bolster my argument now.
Unless they were inflating Kerry's total back then because they knew that would help disguise fraud for Hillary now. Now that's some major ass tinfoil.
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awaysidetraveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
49. Okay, offering a link would help finish your argument. n/t
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Go to Uselectionatlas.org
The data is all there for you.
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
26. Does Ohio register Independent voters? I don't see any mention
of them in your figures. If so, could they account for some of the increased Democratic ballots?
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. They obviously do.
26,044. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Warren County.

25,887. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Clermont County.

There are the votes there to produce these results.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
39. Ohio allows any person to vote in the primary .... you just
have to ask for a certain party's ballot. No questions asked.

What one would need would to look @ ballots
w/ only votes for President and no votes for
other primary candidates .....

Also I would like the Sec. of State to look if the
vote totals match up with the # of voting slips
issued.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
28. Doh! I think Bubba just had his Homer moment.
Republicans for Hillary. Is there even a web site for that?

LoL
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
30. This is what happened in Ohio.
I don't care how many times Clintonistas try to tell me it didn't happen this way, but now that it's been a few days, it's become clear to me that Republicans registered as Democrats and voted for Hillary in staggering numbers.

Hamilton County is where I canvassed and voted (Cincinnati proper and close-in suburbs), and luckily, I feel we had the strongest team of Obama volunteers in the state, and our hard work paid off when he took the county big.

But the Republicans in this area, for the most part, live in Clermont, Butler and Warren counties. And over the last several days, my wingnut coworkers have finally come out of the closet about what they did. They are proud of their shady, sneaky vote. They are thrilled that they were allowed to tamper in our election. They did it in much larger numbers than anyone realizes.

I'm still convinced that Hillary would've won Ohio even if the vote-flip didn't happen, but there is no doubt in my mind that the actions of cynical, shitty Ohio Republicans added three or four points to her margin, and most certainly robbed Obama of delegates.

I've been so heartbroken about this since Tuesday that it's been difficult to even come here to DU and read the threads.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. The most republican congressional district 02 data form March 208
Dist 02 (Rep. Jean Schmidt) 109,295 cast for the Dems while 82, 730 for the R's

Any Doubt that people crossed over to manipulate the outcome of the
primary should be gone.

Some of the #s seem high enough to question if any other thing went on.

****************

p.s. thanx for your work .... reports of cross over vote in central & n.e. Ohio
have come in too.


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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. I find it amusing you have not one comment yet to my point:
26,044. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Warren County.

25,887. What's that number, you ask? That's the number of votes John Kerry received in Ohio in the general election in 2004 in Clermont County.

There are the votes there to produce these results.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. See post # 35
that is my post that produced the result
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. Tell me how amusing this is.
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 11:26 AM by VolcanoJen
http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/03/rushing-to-reas.html

Go and check the exit polls. In Wisconsin, Republicans made up 9 percent of the Democratic primary vote. Obama won them 72-28 over Clinton. Just as tellingly, 14 percent of primary voters said they were "conservative," and Obama won them 59-40, a bigger margin than he won with liberals or moderates. Tactical voters who said Obama stood a better chance of winning in November? They went for him 87-13.

Now, look at Ohio. Once again 9 percent of voters were Republicans, but Obama and Clinton split them evenly, 49-49. Once again, 14 percent of voters were "conservatives," and Obama and Clinton split them 48-48. (Obama did better with them than he did with liberals and moderates.) Those tactical voters who thought Obama could win gave him a 80-18 victory, a margin twelve points smaller than the margin in Wisconsin.

It's a similar story in Texas, where Limbaugh has the most listeners of any of these states. Obama won the Republican vote 52-47, but conservatives (22 percent of all voters, up from 15 percent in the Kerry-Edwards primary) went against Obama. For the first time since Super Tuesday, they were Clinton's best ideological group: She won them 53-43. And Clinton won 13 percent of the people who said Obama was the most electable candidate.

Ohio didn't wind up being very close, but Clinton won the Texas primary by about 98,000 votes out of 2.8 million cast. If the exits are right, about 252,000 of those voters were Republicans, and about 618,000 were conservatives. Clinton truly might have won the Texas primary on the backs of Rush Limbaugh listeners.

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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. Considering the Republicans who voted for Obama because they wanted to deal
Clinton a death blow earlier simply by virtue of the fact they hate her, I don't care about this. Also, voters do vote on factors other than electability. Those differences mean nothing.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Mean Jean Schmidt OWNS the Clermont County Board of Elections.
I swear to God, if I were a good actress, I would have moled my way into that wretched, crooked BoE years ago and gotten their dirty tricks on tape for some kind of "60 Minutes" expose.

I can only imagine what they say about Democrats when we are not around.

And even if you're a Hillary supporter, don't EVER forget the way Clermont, Warren and Butler counties fucked John Kerry in 2004.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Or 2005 when Clarmont stopped the vote count in the ..
.. special election Hackett v Schmidt because of "humidity."
And a tie election swung to Schmidt with the last 90 precincts
all coming in for Schmidt.

S.W. Ohio does not have Air Conditioning?
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. I remember the Hackett election very well.
Worked my ass off for Paul in the OH-2. No doubt in my mind that election was stolen from him right there in Jean's backyard... the Clermont County Board of Elections.

My boss told me that while he was in line to vote (Clermont County), a woman in front of him, when asked which party's ballot she wanted, said "Democrat. But just for today!!!" My boss is a Republican, who voted Republican along with his wife. He told me that this woman was awful and that it upsets him as much as it does me.

Republicans in southwestern Ohio are convinced that "The Limbaugh Effect" robbed Obama of delegates and a few points in the victory margin, whether Clintonistas want to believe it or not.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Buck up the #s for Obama look very good.
The Hackett race still bugs me.

I remember seeing data that all precincts in Clarmont
with more than 200 people in them were inversely
proportional to the # of voters as per support of Hackett.
example the more people in a precinct the lower the % of
vote for Hackett.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #37
47. Humidity won the primary for Hillary and killed Kerry. The air was SULTRY, goddamnit!
It's too goddamn sultry in here. I'm going out for some air.



Suits Hillary just fine. She didn't want Kerry to win.

Whatever happened to Hackett anyway?
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. Paul's still lawyerin' away in Cincinnati.
I've run into him downtown many times. He's an amazing person and he never forgets a name. He's also very tall and devilishly handsome. ;-)

Paul attempted a run at the US Senate in 2006, but was back-doored out of the primary by Sherrod Brown. Sherrod won in a landslide, so I'm not as upset about it as I was at the time!
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. He started to run for Senate and got sand bagged by Schummer, Reid,
and Sherrod Brown so he had to drop out.

After that many people asked him to get back into the
Congressional race and he declined saying he had given
his word to the others runnning. That man has real
class ... from what I have heard he is so sick of politics now that
he is done running for elected office.

Sometime in 2008 he awoke to find people doing
damage to his property .... he got up (got his gun)
hopped into his car and drove after the crooks ...
caught them and held 'till the police came.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
53. Look at the down ticket undervotes in Hamilton county:
Ballots cast for the Democratic Party in Hamilton County Presidential v Congressional races:

Democratic Presidential 104,279 Ballots cast

Congress 01 UNDERVOTES 51,098
Congress 02 UNDERVOTES 6,866

Total UNDERVOTES in Hamilton Congressional Race =57,964

http://www.hamilton-co.org/BOE/inputdata/Electionsresults/RealTime/RealTime.pdf

I WOULD EXPECT IF YOU WERE GOING TO CROSS VOTE TO THE DEM TICKET-YOU PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE INTERESTED IN DOWN TICKET RACES.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Except that if you scroll down to the Republicans you find similar situations.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. NICE TRY BUT 77,489 GOP VOTES CAST FOR PREZ & 66,558 FOR CONGRESS!
Certainly not the level of undervotes seen in the Dem race!
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Except the undervotes were disproportionately in Disctrict 1, which Obama won heavily.
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 12:37 PM by Zynx
Hmmmmm....Explain that to me. District 2 undervotes, where Hillary won, were far far lower.

In fact, there were more undervotes in District 1 than Hillary's ENTIRE VOTE TOTAL. So even if all of Hillary's voters were Republican shills, it still doesn't add up. Argument over.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. WRONG AGAIN! DIST 01=6075 UNDERVOTES; DIST 02= 7071 UNDERVOTES FOR GOP!
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. I was talking about the Democratic side.
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 12:40 PM by Zynx
Which was your big complaint on the undervotes.

And calm yourself down.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
57. HERE'S AN EXAMPLE OF A DESPICABLE GOP CROSS-VOTER:
An Obama-Hater for Clinton, Temporarily
BY JASON HOROWITZ | MARCH 5, 2008 | TAGS: POLITICSBARACK OBAMAHILLARY CLINTONOHIO

Meet Todd Appelbaum, a 46-year-old from Columbus, who wore a shirt that says “Osama for Obama” to the Clinton campaign’s election-night event in Ohio last night.
The white t-shirt, with an image of Barack Obama dressed in traditional Somali garb, is adorned with a blue Hillary Clinton button, although Appelbaum is not what one would call a real Hillary Clinton supporter.
“I voted for Hillary today,” he said, “because I’m concerned that, God forbid, Barack Obama will beat McCain. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
http://www.observer.com/2008/obama-hater-clinton-temporarily



Controversial ABC Video of "Obama for Osama" Tee shirt wearer at Hillary's Election Night Party is Bexley businessman Todd Appelbaum :

Controversial Clinton Guest: 'Osama for Obama'

Email
Share
March 04, 2008 10:42 PM

ABC News' Kate Snow and Eloise Harper report: A controversial party guest was spotted at Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's election night party in Columbus, Ohio Tuesday.

He was hard to miss. He was the one wearing the "Osama for Obama" t-shirt.

Columbus resident Todd Elbaum told ABC News his friend makes the t-shirts.

Elbaum did not hold back on his views of Obama when he was interviewed by ABC within full view of a Clinton staffer.

"The truth is he was born a Muslim, his father was a Muslim, his mother married a Muslim after divorcing his father. His grandfather was a Muslim. It doesn't matter. But what does matter is when Obama said he was never a Muslim. He was a Muslim. He was born a Muslim. He was a Muslim for six years of his life," Elbaum said.

Watch the VIDEO HERE.

-snip

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/03/controversial-c.html

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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. I've been letting my wingnut coworkers have it for days.
They're so smug and self-satisfied and find themselves to be so devilishly clever. It's disgusting, the way they crapped on our most precious right with their cynicism and trickery.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. I filed a complaint w Brunner's office & with OSU's Election Law to see if this guy
could be prosecuted.

IANAL but I found this that says if a 5th degree felony. :

I was at Presiding Judge Training last night (in Ohio) and we were reviewing form 10 X--Change of Party Registration Form. The form states "I (name of person Challenged) of (Address) hereby state, under penalty of election falsification, that I desire to be affiliated with and that I support the principles of the (Designate Democrat or Republican) party and wish to cast a ballot in the party's primary election this year." It is left up to the Poll Workers to decide if the individual gets to change their party affiliation or not. I'm new to this arena--anyone have any experience with people switching party allegiance in a primary in order to vote in such a way that is beneficial to their original party? Has anyone ever been denied the opportunity to switch parties at a primary election? Our trainer would not even give us an example of when a Poll Worker would approve or deny this request. Falsely switching parties is a 5th degree felony.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/02/in-ohiowhoever-commits-electio.php

I hope they make an example out of this guy!
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