What Nader REALLY doesn't get

[UnityDem]

Not much was made of what Nader said recently.
He said that Kerry should be crushing Bush right now in the polls.
Hello, Ralph, do you live in the real world?
Don't you know that at least 40% of people would vote for any repuke?
Don't you know that the mainstream media is either too lazy or too duplicitous to educate the masses?
Don't you know the tremendous advantage that Bush has in money and incumbency?
Don't you know that most people in the country just "ain't all that smart"?
Kerry will need EVERY person with a brain to vote for him to have any chance of winning.
When Nader rails on dems and Kerry for being in corporate profits just like the repubs....the answer is "duh"...we know that....but, fighting them right now is a losing battle. Remember when Gov.Dean tried that on Hardball talking about the control of the media by only 11 companies.....and, suddenly, and STUNNINGLY his reporting became almost exclusively negative.....
Hey, Ralph,,,first we get this REGIME out...then, we start working on the greater good. But, we may not be able to do it without you and every other THINKING person in this country. Vote Kerry!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Welcome to DU!!!

Glad to have you on board!! :grouphug: :yourock: :toast:

[qb]

3. More Nader lies

"Democrats = Republicans"
"I'll take more votes from Bush than from Kerry"
"A 'real' Democrat would be crushing Bush in the polls"

How can people support this guy?

[Nadienne]

6. How can people support this guy?

Tell me, if you have radical lefties (Nader) and radical righties (Bush), doesn't this make it easier to vote for the Kerry? Nader makes Kerry look moderate. Couldn't Kerry use this to his advantage?

[library_max]

8. No, the country is divided.

Nader doesn't give Kerry votes in the middle, he just takes away votes on the left. Probably this time he won't take enough to worry about, but after Florida 2000 we don't like the word "probably" too much.

[Nadienne]

10. So you don't think

a more liberal candidate makes Kerry seem acceptably moderate to swing voters?

You don't think some swing voters will think, "Kerry can't be very liberal. Otherwise, Nader wouldn't be running"?

[library_max]

12. Only liberals will think that,

if anybody does.

[Nadienne]

70. Hard to argue

with logic like that.

[Paradise]

2. Welcome to DU Unity :) !

Good post :hi:

[charlie105]

4. Speaking of corporate profits, when can we expect

Ralph to release his tax returns for the past years. Being the common man's champion, I would assume he has nothing to hide.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. We'll shake the junta out of the WH, as long as they don't cheat again.

And as far as that goes, my confidence level is not high. :(

[DaveSZ]

7. We can't allow them to cheat with BBV

We must initiate a paper ballot campaign in those counties.

[coloradodem2005]

9. Another thing to consider...

...is that Ralph is taking votes away from Kerry. If he got out, Kerry would be doing much more damage to Bush.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

11. Nicely said and welcome

Some people don't quite grasp how bad Bush really is.

[LandOLincoln]

17. I think it's more likely that a LOT of people don't grasp Nader's

true intentions, which are the same in 2004 that they were in 2000: he's a liar, a fraud, a good friend of that famous liberal Dem Grover Norquist (sarcasm, in case anyone's wondering) and he's deliberately doing his damnedest to tip the election to Bush.

Again.

[annak110]

45. Well, this is certainly absolute nonsense! Nader didn't "steal"

the election in 2000, remember the unconstitutional move by the Supreme Court, i.e., stopping the vote count and throwing the election to the idiot now in office (at least "in office" sometimes, when he isn't out raising money for his re-appointment). You know this and you know that you can't have it both ways-that should be simple.

I've known of Nader's work for many years now and I know why people smear him, they are propagandists for the corrupt fascist corporations which he has always fought against. It still makes me angry, compare this constant smearing to what Bill Clinton receives. You would think Clinton was the most powerful (and most corrupt) person in the world from the list of stuff the fascists accuse him of ...and you know that this rw diatribe is false, so is the crap about Nader.

[library_max]

47. Scalia and the other four justices stole the election.

Nader voters in Florida left the door unlocked and the keys in the ignition.

[Hippo_Tron]

64. We can't stop the 5 Justices from stealing the election...

We can't stop Bush from using every dirty trick and lie he can to win. We can't stop Jebbie from tipping the polls in his favor. We can stop BBV but only to a certain extent. However, we can try to get Nader to see the light and drop out to support Kerry. While there were bigger factors in Gore's loss than Nader, the Nader factor is the one that we have the most realistic change of changing, thus we try to do so.

[checks-n-balances]

13. Beware of BOTH Wolves in Sheep's Clothing

Yes, and what's worse is whatever followers he has who don't STILL may not get it before November!

Who at this website can’t see that he’s in bed with the Republicans? It’s obvious now that he can be bought by those willing to find and exploit his moral weaknesses. The American people are already paying the price for this shameless romp that continues to put us all at risk.

What's equally disturbing is that Nader apparently seduces and exploits the idealism of younger voters, who weren't around decades ago when the arguments of the Religious Right and Neocons began to overtake the Republican party (and later, the country). I hope it doesn't sound condescending to say that. People who believe Nader underestimate, or just don't understand, the further devastation that 4 more years of the Republican brand of creeping totalitarianism and fascism could do to this world.

Nader lost credibility with me long ago with his specious argument about no differences between the two political parties. Anyone with his amount of intelligence and who can’t detect the obvious differences - let alone the subtle ones – has to be either CONFUSED by the facts, or DEVOID of LOGICAL REASONING, or CYNICALLY DEVIOUS. Perhaps it’s all of the above.

This time around, who in their right minds would actually vote for someone who cannot think any more objectively, or speak more honestly than that, to be our PRESIDENT??? Or someone so easily misguided?? We already have someone like that in our highest office right now.

His own argument from 2000 could easily be tweaked and turned back against him:

THERE IS VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE IN MORAL CHARACTER BETWEEN BUSH AND NADER.

Whether Bush and/or Nader truly “know not what they do” because they were duped into their respective evildoing is not totally clear. But they undoubtedly are both misusing the power they have for their own selfish ends. And they obviously don’t care about the U.S. or the world or most of the people within it.

[zulchzulu]

14. Make sure to pie Ralph when he comes to your town

[Feanorcurufinwe]

15. Welcome!

Excellent points.

[balanced]

16. Hey Ralph,,,first get this Regime out...

Perfect

[Ardee]

18. Hello Unity ,here's the real world

Massive unemplyment, 600 plus americans dead in Iraq and over ten thousand Iraqis and counting. Our schools are dead broke, our seniors cannot afford their prescriptions, our national debrt is a record, after a surplus three short years ago.

Bush should be fleeing for his life one step ahead of the tar and feathers, but no, he is actually leading in the polls....Why, I wonder ,would that be? Could it be that the Democratic Party has been silent, complicit and slavishly devoted to gaining corporate monies instead of acting like th eopposition party?

Rail against Nader all you want to, if it makes you feel good, but it solves nothing , it remedies nothing and it serves no useful purpose other than to deflect you all from the real problems within your party....Gee, President Jeb Bush in 08, what a thing to chance.......

[sangha]

19. What Nader REALLY doesn't get

is that while his running may make him and some others feel good, it solves nothing, it remedies nothing, and it serves no useful purpose other than to deflect from the REAL problems the world faces.

[Ardee]

24. what Sangha REALLY doesnt get

Is that someone somewhere must speak out. The dems have been mute for three years, complicit for that same time period and now attempt to rail against what they voted for in the first place? Give me a break!

[sangh0]

39. What Nader doesn't get

is that people are speaking out all over the place.

[Touchdown]

20. Where do you propose that the Democrats get their message out?

Hannity and Colmes...Wolf Blitzer...Tweety...American Morning...Inside Politics...McLaughlin...Meet the Press...Limbaugh...Oh'Really Factor...Stephanopolis...Boortz...NY Post...Moonie Times...Anderson Cooper...the Tonight Show?

Has any of these shows actually let the criticism be told? No! Why? Because they're all busy "interviewing" St. Ralph and throwing softball questions at him, while cheering in glee at his ad-homs on Democrats.

You can't do a very effective job being an opposition party, when you're not allowed to get your message out by the corporate media.

EDIT: And while we're on the subject....Where has St. Ralph been these last 3 years while all this shit has been going on? Al Gore has been actively criticizing Chimpy on a regular basis ever since the selection, and excoriated in the press for it as well. Where was Ralph this whole time? Not a peep. Now, he decides to enlighten us with his un-compromising wisdom <sarcasm> on how we are all being taken for a ride by these 2 parties...and as kismet would have it...it just coincidently happens during an election year...and to further the the syncronicity, he JUST HAPPENS to be running for President as well. Yeah, he's a REAL messenger there.:eyes:

[sangha]

21. And here's St Ralph "What me worry?" quote on ElectionTheft2000 -

http://www.damnedbigdifference.org/quotes

"I'm just amazed that people think I should be concerned about this stuff. It's absolutely amazing. Not a minute's sleep do I lose, about something like this - because I feel sorry for them. It's just so foolish, the way they have been behaving. Why should I worry?" -- Common Dreams 4-03-2001

[Ardee]

23. Im sorry things are so bad on your planet

But here on mine Nader spends as much time excoriating Bush as he does the democrats, and his criticism of the democrats is simply true, sorry you refuse to see, blinded as you must be by party loyalty.

You are moaning that a national party cannot get its message out? That simply doesnt fly, is a silly damned excuse for having no message for three whole years! The real truth is that 9/11 screwed the cowards into the ground, the Froms and McAuliffes were afraid to criticise a war President and now noone is listening.

Which Al Gore would that be I wonder? The one here on earth has been invisible since his aborted presidential run ( I attended the Commonwealth Club in SF to hear him and he was marvelous!)and disappeared fromt he earth, perhaps he went to your planet to campaign?

I dare you to go to Votenader.org and read what he has to say.Tell me what you find wrong there....but of course you will not.

[Touchdown]

31. Let me ask again Ardee.

Where was Nadir and his uncompromising vigilance in the last 3 years?

Do you speak english on your planet? That should be as clear as I can ask it.


Yes, I'm a Democrat. Amazing isn't it? You found an actual Democrat on a Democratic website, and he *GASP!* supports a Democratic candidate for President, of which Nadir is an OPPONENT OF! I'm not blind. Kerry has won more political races than Nadir, which has won ZERO! This is a competition, a race, and a fight. I've chosen sides, and I side with Kerry, not because I'm ABB, but because I think he'd make a great President...everybody else who wants the same job is the enemy. That's politics, pure and simple. Nadir has LIED about the Democrats, about Gore and about Kerry. Maybe YOU'RE too blind by your partisan loyalty to see that.

I have no use for union busting hypocrites who claim to be for the people once every 4 years, especially when they know the potential of the neo-con agenda if re-elected. Why would I go a competitor's website, from a Democratic one, at the behest of a supporter who's obviously trolling for more potential Nadir-zealots?

[sangh0]

42. Ardee doesn't answer questions

He only demands that you provide answers, complete with links for every assertion

In another thread, I said Nader only has three supporters, and Ardee demanded that I prove that obviously rhetorical statement

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[sangha]

58. Two posts in a row calling people liars

I'm impressed

[Ardee]

72. No you are not impressed

that is a lie.

[sangh0]

74. Three

I'm even more impressed

[hippiegranny]

25. no ardee, the real world

is that the media props up the little tin frat fuck which keeps him up in the polls. this is what happens when all three branchs of the government plus the media is on one side of an ideology. the dem party might not be perfect, but it's better than what has installed itself right now, and YOUR party isn't doing anything constructive to remove it.

[Name removed]

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[annak110]

46. Excellent answer Ardee!

I'm glad I read this truth on this thread...

[yardwork]

22. I overheard an example of this today....

I was in a little store that sells imported cotton clothing, incense, jewelry. There's a youngish guy in there with a strong country accent talking to the owner, who is an older guy with a long white beard.

This is what they said:

Country: Well, things are going real bad in Eye-rak today.
White Beard: I can't believe half the things they tell us.

That's generous, I thought to myself. I believe considerably less than half what the media and/or government tell us....

White Beard: They're going to bring back the draft you know.
Country: I heard that. Lucky I'm too old to be drafted. That Bush, he's doing a terrible job. I'm not going to vote for him again.

Good, I think to myself.

White Beard: Well, you know Kerry's just the same (short laugh). We'll have the draft with Kerry, too. He'll be batting clean-up after Bush.

You asshole, I thought.

Country: I'm a registered Republican, but this has gone so far beyond what Republicans stand for.
White Beard: Well, the Democrats are just as bad.
Country: I think I'll change my registration to Libertarian.

Nice going, I thought. Chase another disaffected Republican AWAY from the Democrats! With buddies like this, who needs Freepers?

I left without buying anything.

[zulchzulu]

27. If Freepers vote third party, that's OK by me

Better yet, if they are too lazy to show up to vote, that's cool too.

[Ardee]

53. so what kind of nation do you seek?

One in which everyone is in lockstep with you? Bah, find a democratic politician who didnt vote for every damn Bush agenda item, one who speaks out with courage and conviction and corporate cash be damned.....give up yet?

Im sure that there are many ,many folks like the two you cite, voters who dont think Kerry is the answer either...two folks dying to find a decent candidate.

[IndianaGreen]

26. Nader called for Bush's impeachment

I am waiting to hear Kerry call for Bush's impeachment...

chirp, chirp, chirp

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. It just shows how out of touch with reality Nader is.

I am waiting for Hastert and Sensenbrenner to join Nader in this call and push for Articles of Impeachment in the GOP controlled House.


chirp, chirp, chirp


If Nader really cared about ousting Bush, he'd drop out, refuse all media interviews till November 3rd, and donate $2000 to the Kerry campaign.

[IndianaGreen]

29. And how many people will die in Iraq between then and now?

We don't have the luxury to wait!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

30. If Bush is reselected, countless thousands more will die.

But Nader doesn't care. The deaths of innocent children mean nothing to him.

"We don't have the luxury to wait!"

Who's waiting? We're working hard every day to defeat Bush, unlike Nader, who is working hard every day to have Bush re-selected.

[IndianaGreen]

32. I don't hear anyone calling for troop withdrawal

What we are hearing is talk of escalation and troop buildup, the twin poisons of Vietnam.

Looks like saving lives and ending the occupation are less important than partisan politics.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. What you are talking about is Bush's policy. We must and will beat Bush.

Nader will make our work harder, but we will still succeed.

Since we know you are not lying, and since it would be a lie to say Kerry is talking about escalating the conflict, you are talking about Bush.

[IndianaGreen]

34. It will become Kerry's policy next year

Kerry will, as Bush intended to do, continue the occupation of Iraq and the lucrative contracts that went with it. As Seumas Milne wrote in a blistering piece in The Guardian:

Like all occupying powers, the US fears genuinely free elections in Iraq. In any case, according to existing plans, the US will maintain full effective control - of security, oil, economic policy, major contracts - under a rigged interim constitution whenever the formal "transfer" takes place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1188142,00.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

35. It is Nader's policy NOW.

[annak110]

49. Yes, and Kerry is already announcing that Bush is "soft" on

Chavez in Venezuela, (and Cuba and, well, you name it) The Party Poopers in Washington must believe we've forgotten about the deaths and /or displacements of a growing number of duly elected officials in other countries.
I don't think there is room to name them all but of course examples are Allende in Chili, Mossadegh in Iraq, Aristide in Haiti (this was twice) I understand that our invasion of Haiti and the kidnapping of Aristide came about because Aristide wanted to tax the big tankers that moved into port in Haiti.

[library_max]

37. Troop withdrawal? Now?

While Bush is still the president and the Republicans control both houses of Congress?

Impeach Bush? Now? While Republicans control both houses of Congress?

Does your side have any interest in things that could actually be accomplished, or is it all about spitting into the wind?

[sangh0]

40. Nader won't actually do it

but he will talk about it.

BTW IG, Kerry called for regime change in the US over a year ago. Where was Nader then?

[IndianaGreen]

61. Regime change implies policy change

I don't see a policy change with Kerry on issues such as Plan Colombia, PATRIOT Act, NAFTA, Iraq, Israel/Palestine conflict. All I see is more of the same, replacing the raw imperialism of PNAC with the lubricated imperialism of PPI.

[sangh0]

65. You sound like the "Anything But Clinton" Repukes

who insisted on doing the exact opposite of everything Clinton did, which helped bring on 9/11.

[Lexingtonian]

36. Ralph has his own mythological take

In Ralph's World, a planet very few of us live on, there is no such thing as History or Culture to confuse things. America is a country untainted by such things, we outsource that stuff and remain Forever Immigrants with vicarious involvement in the lands our ancestors left far behind.

In Ralph's World all people are pure rationalists, obeying individual economic and social interests and only accidentally behaving as a collective or according to the history of the group(s) each American is part of.

In Ralph's World there is no Culture War where people subordinate their material selfinterests for imaginary notions promoted by tradition. Basically, any ideal worth embracing has to be Pure Abstraction, and inability to implement it is really in fact a virtue.

In Ralph's World, the Pure People don't borrow or lend money on interest, don't speculate in real estate, and they mail dividend checks back to the companies with notes saying "No, we really shouldn't and it's much better if it's used to augment an underpaid CEO's base salary."

Ralph is an alien masquerading as an American. A Lebanese follower of Marx, or at best Trotsky, and definitely liable to the fallacies of the kind.

But no, Kerry could well not need all the Naderite votes. Maybe even none at all.

[no name no slogan]

38. What I find amazing is

the amount of hot air certain democrats are willing to expend on this electoral asterisk, who probably won't be on the ballot in most states.

Nader is right: Kerry should be mopping the floor with the asshat at 1600 Penn. GeeDubya is the WORST president in modern history, yet all the Dems seem to muster up is wonkish talk about how we'll run the war correctly, give tax breaks so corporations won't export our jobs, and "strongarm" OPEC into producing more oil-- and that's only when they're not playing suckass with the PNAC boys!!!

God Dammit, John Kerry, SHOW US THE VISION! People don't react to wonkish statements about shaving percentages and "incentives" to crooks who keep robbing us. STAND THE F*CK UP and tell them that there's no free ride!

Where's the John Kerry who exposed Iran-Contra? Where's the John Kerry who asked who'd be the last man out of Vietnam? Where's the John Kerry who exposed the BCCI mess?

Tell him to get his ass in here ASAP-- at this rate it will be another squeeker, with less than 50% even voting this year.

Give the people something to vote FOR, and they'll line up behind you. Show them you're not afraid of whatever BushCo unleashes. Get your supporters to hit the streets: register some NEW voters, and make sure your loyalists can get to the polls on November 2. And for Allah's sake don't count on your big media pals who hire your brother's law firm to help one bit-- because they won't.

[library_max]

41. It doesn't help if 5 or 10% of the people line up behind you

and you scare the other 90% into voting for Bush. Stuff we on the left think is self-evident is anything but self-evident to the great mass of American voters. Scorched-earth politics only works for the side that controls the media and has the masses convinced that it has a monopoly on Mom, apple pie, and the flag.

[sangh0]

44. Nader doesn't get 5%-10%

He got THREE PERCENT in 2000, and he needed the help of the Green Party to even get that little bit. This year, he's going to do worse. I'l be shocked, SHOCKED I SAY, if he does better than 1% in 2004.

[library_max]

48. I was assuming that the platform and rhetoric outlined in post 38

could get 5 to 10%, not Nader. A lot of the nation is really angry at Bush, but a lot more aren't.

[no name no slogan]

56. The can only vote for Nader if he's on the ballot

...and if Oregon is any indication, he'll have one hell of a time getting there. Most of the state Green Parties will NOT nominate him as their presidential candidate, either, so he'll be lucky if he even gets 1%, IMHO. Nader write-ins probably won't even be tabulated in most states, so he NEEDS to be on the ballot.

In my state (MN), Nader broke 5%, and because of that we have a fourth major political party in the state (besides the DFL, Reps, and Independence/Ventura Cult of Personality parties). One of the reasons many Dem leaners voted Nader in 2000 was to give the Greens major-party status.

The more Democrats throw hissy-fits about the Nader non-factor, the more attention he gets from worried Democrats-- who would rather trash him than talk about the issues he raises.

Nader will not lose this race for the Democrats-- only the Democrats can do that. But Democrats giving Nader more attention than he deserves will certainly not help us win.

[Name removed]

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[sangha]

59. You think Nader's 3% can change politics

and then you laugh at someone else's hyperbole?

:crazy:

[Name removed]

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[library_max]

66. I know it's hard to see it 'way, 'way out there in the fringe.

But if we run on nothing but hatred and left-wing absolutism, we could in fact create a huge landslide for Bush.

[Name removed]

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[sangh0]

43. "Nader is right: Kerry should be mopping the floor with the asshat "

If it's so easy Ralph, why can't you do it?

Ralph can't even get the support of one thousand Oregonians. He's not in the position to tell Kerry how to beat Bush*

[Name removed]

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[sangha]

60. Yes, no one can beat Bush* if they can't get votes

We're not diagnosing a patient. We're having an election

If you read what Nader says

I advise you pay more attention to what a politician does than what s/he says. Byrd's a good example of that. Great speaker, but he takes money from the energy corporations, just like the Repukes.

And you think that makes sense

[Ardee]

68. We are indeed diagnosing a very sick patient

Our political system is that patient, the death of the two party system is the disease, growth of third party politics is the cure.

As to your reference to Byrd and corporate funding ,every damned politician, repug or dem, takes corporate money, every single one. It is the need to face costly reelections,the ensuring of future employment as lobbyists, and ,in some cases, unbridled greed that maks this practice so pervasive.

[Hippo_Tron]

63. So if Nalph Rader thinks he can do it so much better, why is he at 5%?

[no name no slogan]

75. What's amazing is how worried Dems get about that 5%

That's the real issue.

Jeebus, you'd think St. Ralphie sacrificed a virgin or something. All this whining and winging about an electoral asterisk, when you could be focusing all that negative energy on bringing Kerry's message to eligible non-voters.

Don't forget, 1/2 of eligible voters didn't even VOTE in 2000-- that's a hell of a big pool to choose from. All we, as Democrats, need to do is get ONE TENTH of those non-voters to vote for our candidate-- just ONE TENTH, and we win.

IMHO it's much easier to get those votes than it is to browbeat and ridicule those who are dead-set on voting for Nader.

[sangh0]

76. "worried Dems" are "the real issue"???

Boy, are you confused. There are far more important issues than this.

Don't forget, 1/2 of eligible voters didn't even VOTE in 2000-- that's a hell of a big pool to choose from. All we, as Democrats, need to do is get ONE TENTH of those non-voters to vote for our candidate-- just ONE TENTH, and we win...IMHO it's much easier to get those votes than it is to browbeat and ridicule those who are dead-set on voting for Nader

SO why doesn't Nader get those votes if it's so easy?

[salonghorn70]

57. The Real World

He doesn't live in it.

BTW, this is my first post:)

[Hippo_Tron]

62. Welcome to DU salonghorn70!

Good to have another person who knows something about the real world.

[rasputin1952]

67. Welcome to DU!

:toast: :party:

:hi:

[PATRICK]

73. Left handed defense of Nader

Under assault by all the powers that be Nader chose a very narrow path down to every brain cell and lifestyle choice, attacking any of his allies who made compromises with that approach, never straying far from his chosen field of attack and expertise. Watching this man walk the narrow path with blinders on while saying this aimed toward the presidency or government reform is a dismaying spectacle. His own foray into a wider field with his narrow dogmatic life is like sticking a knife into the Staypuff marshmallow giant from "Ghostbusters". Brave, principled, true and feckless. Singleminded people can constantly be duped. Throwing them lifelines to actual messy political hope is like throwing women at Trappist monks. The more principled he is, the more irritated by criticisms from the impure.

There may come a conscious crunch point when he has to choose to appear principled over doing the right thing or to bend uncharacteristically to the needs of the times. Then- ironically- I bet he will instead find some middle ground accommodation.