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Clinton now leads PA by 15 after dead heat prior to March 4

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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:36 PM
Original message
Clinton now leads PA by 15 after dead heat prior to March 4
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 11:41 PM by jackson_dem
Post-upset

H 52
O 37

Prior to the scheduled 3/4 coronation:

H 46
O 42

-snip-

In late February, before Clinton’s comeback victories in Ohio, Texas, and Rhode Island, the former First Lady’s lead in the Keystone State was just four percentage points. The big difference between that poll and the current result is found a among men. Clinton now leads by seventeen percentage points among women and eleven among men. In the previous survey, she was ahead by fifteen points among women but trails by fourteen among men.

On another hot topic, 25% of Likely Primary Voters in Pennsylvania say that the North American Free Trade Agreement—NAFTA—has been good for the United States. Forty-three percent (43%) have the opposite view. Clinton leads by twelve percentage points among union members.

Clinton leads by twenty-two percentage points among those who say the economy is the top voting issue. She leads by twenty-eight among voters who view health care as the top priority. Obama leads by ten among those who say the War in Iraq is most important. Fifty percent (50%) of those likely to vote in the Primary view the economy as the most important voting issue for Election 2008. Eighteen percent (18%) say it’s the War in Iraq while 13% name Health Care.

In the Keystone State, Clinton is viewed favorably by 77% of Likely Democratic Primary Voters. Obama is viewed favorably by 71% overall.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/pennsylvania/pennsylvania_democratic_presidential_primary

Fired up?

Two points, folks:

A) This shows how wrong it was to ascribe Obama's gains due to momentum as being due to Obama being a magical campaigner. What momentum giveth, it taketh.

B) This shows Hill starts off with an edge but with a 7 week campaign in which both will practically move to PA the current poll numbers mean little. The candidate who runs the best campaign will win.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. she won't after they find out about her "experience"!
HILLARY’S Commander In Chief Experience - The Red Phone Test

LISTING HILLARY CLINTON'S RED PHONE EXPERIENCE
ON NATIONAL SECURITY CRISIS



Tracing Hillary Clinton's '35 Years' of Experience


All Things Considered, January 24, 2008  When Hillary Clinton makes a campaign appearance, she almost certainly will highlight her experience — 35 years, she says — as one of her qualifications for president.

But Clinton is a little less specific when it comes to describing what exactly she was doing in the years before she became a U.S. senator in 2001.

Suzanne Goldenberg is author of a new book about Clinton, Madam President, and a U.S. correspondent for the British newspaper The Guardian.

Goldenberg says it's difficult to see how Clinton calculates her 35 years of public service, since her fulltime job for many years was working for a corporate law firm in Arkansas.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18391632


After earning her JD from Yale, Clinton worked as a member of the impeachment inquiry staff in DC. In 1974 she failed the DC Bar Exam and decided to move to Arkansas where Bill was running for congress. He did not succeed in this campaign. Both of them took jobs with the Arkansas University, Fayetteville Law School. By 1977, Bill had won the Arkansas Attorney General campaign and Hillary had earned a job with the Rose Law Firm in Little Rock. She continued to be involved politically, urging new laws to recognize children's rights, but her law practice focused on Patent Infringement and Intellectual Property law, though she rarely set foot in a court room. http://doubledemon.newsvine.com/_news/2008/02/06/1282777-obamas-experience-vs-clintons-experience?groupId=1675


Children’s Defense Fund -


Hillary Clinton & the Children's Defense Fund
http://www.peterglenshaw.com/peter_glenshaw_weblog/2008/01/hillary-clinton.html

How Hillary Clinton Betrayed the Children's Defense Fund for Political Gain:
http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/editorblog/034


While Clinton touts her decision to come out of law school and work not for Wall Street but rather for the Children's Defense Fund, the truth is that she spent only a year there. (And then omitted her mentor Marian Wright Edelman from among the 400 others she mentions in the acknowledgemets of her autobiography because Edelman had broken with her when Bill Clinton abolished the federal welfare saftey net in 1996).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marc-cooper/hillarys-5-million-dump_b_85534.html




She was twice named to the list of “The 100 Most Influential Lawyers in America.” She also represented and later served on the board of Arkansas businesses including TCBY ("Too Good to Be Yoghurt"), and Wal-Mart. As First Lady of Arkansas for twelve years, she chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee, co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, and served on the boards of the Arkansas Children's Hospital, Legal Services, and the Children's Defense Fund. Mrs. Clinton wrote a weekly newspaper column entitled "Talking It Over."
http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=43


Wal-Mart


Hillary Clinton and Wal-Mart: A Love Story
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0207-34.htm

Wal-Mart’s First Lady
Hillary’s Past Belies Her Support of Labor

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0021,harkavy,15052,5.html

WalMart Board - 1990





Clinton campaign downplays a large part of her career
By MATT STEARNS
McClatchy-Tribune

WASHINGTON — To hear Hillary Clinton talk, she's spent her entire career putting her Yale Law School degree to work for the common good.

She routinely tells voters that she's "been working to bring positive change to people's lives for 35 years." She told a voter in New Hampshire: "I've spent so much of my life in the nonprofit sector."

The overall portrait is of a lifelong, selfless do-gooder. The whole story is more complicated — and less flattering.
Clinton worked at the Children's Defense Fund for less than a year, and that's the only full-time job in the nonprofit sector she's ever had. She also worked briefly as a law professor.

Clinton spent the bulk of her career — 15 of those 35 years — at one of Arkansas' most prestigious corporate law firms, where she represented big companies and served on corporate boards....
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/5510369.html




Rose Law Firm



Clinton joined Rose in 1976, becoming the venerable firm's first full female partner in 1979, and she continued to work for Rose after husband Bill became governor of Arkansas.

Rose Law Firm focuses primarily on corporate litigation and transactions. She worked primarily on patent infringement and intellectual property litigation, though she did not do much court work. Rose Law Firm is well entrenched in Arkansas' business and political institutions.
http://doubledemon.newsvine.com/_news/2008/02/06/1282777-obamas-experience-vs-clintons-experience?groupId=1675


the Task Force on National Health Care Reform, headed by First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton


First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton was charged with coming up with a comprehensive plan to provide universal health care for all Americans, which was to be a cornerstone of the administration's first-term agenda.

Hillary Clinton's leading role in this project was unprecedented for a presidential spouse.<11><12> This unusual decision by President Clinton to put his wife in charge of the project has been attributed to several factors, including the President's desire to emphasize his personal commitment to the enterprise.<12>

The First Lady's role in the secret proceedings of the Health Care Task Force also sparked litigation in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit, in relation to the Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA) which requires openness in government. The Clinton White House argued that the Recommendation Clause in Article II of the U.S. Constitution would make it unconstitutional to apply the procedural requirements of FACA to Hillary's participation in the meetings of the Task Force. Some constitutional experts argued to the court that such a legal theory was not supported by the text, history, or structure of the Constitution.<13>Ultimately, Hillary Clinton won the litigation when the D.C. Circuit ruled narrowly that the First Lady of the United States can be deemed a government official (and not a mere private citizen) for purposes of not having to comply with the procedural requirements of FACA.<14>

In 1993, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, along with several other groups, filed a lawsuit against Hillary Clinton and Donna Shalala? over closed-door meetings related to the health care plan. The AAPS sued to gain access to the list of members of the task force. Judge Royce C. Lamberth found in favor of the plaintiffs and awarded $285,864 to the AAPS for legal costs; Lamberth also harshly criticized the Clinton administration and Clinton aide Ira Magaziner in his ruling.<15> Subsequently, a federal appeals court overturned the award and the initial findings on the basis that Magaziner and the administration had not acted in bad faith.<16>

Starting on September 28, 1993, Hillary Clinton appeared for several days of testimony before five congressional committees on health care.<9> Opponents of the bill organized against it before it was presented to the Democratic-controlled Congress on November 20, 1993.<9> The bill was a complex proposal running more than 1,000 pages, the core element of which was an enforced mandate for employers to provide health insurance coverage to all of their employees through competitive but closely-regulated health maintenance organizations (HMOs).

The 1994 mid-term election became a "referendum on big government — Hillary Clinton had launched a massive health-care reform plan that wound up strangled by its own red tape."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Clinton_health_care_plan





Ireland




The Facts
Chris Thornton, a political reporter for the Belfast Telegraph, said that Hillary Clinton's visits to northern Ireland contributed to the "mood music" that made an eventual settlement possible, but were hardly key to reaching an agreement. "Would we have reached a settlement without that kind of stuff? Yes. Would we have got one without the intervention of Bill Clinton and George Mitchell? No."

Hillary is making a lot more of her Northern Ireland role on the campaign trail than she did in her memoir "Living History." As the Boston Globe recently noted, her stories of bringing Protestant and Catholic women together have become more dramatic with each retelling. The claim that she brought Catholics and Protestants together "for the first time" seems dubious. This would not be the first time that she has mixed up her chronology.

The Pinocchio Test
Hillary Clinton seems to be overstating her significance as a catalyst in the Northern Ireland peace process, which was more symbolic than substantive. On the other hand, she did play a helpful role at the margins, by encouraging organizations like Vital Voices, a women's group that takes a stand against extremism. One Pinocchio for exaggeration.


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/01/clinton_and_northern_ireland.html






China


During a 1995 visit to Beijing, at a time when her husband's administration was trying to press China on human rights, Sen. Clinton made a speech condemning abuses.


Kosovo


In May of 1999, she was in Macedonia visiting refugee camps near the Kosovo border and meeting with Macedonia's president and prime minister.

Sources with knowledge of her visit say she discussed the refugees' plight with those leaders. It's not clear how much she helped since CNN reported at the time that Macedonia reopened its border to Kosovar refugees before Clinton's visit.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/06/clinton.foreign.fact/




Senator From New York


Upon entering the United States Senate, Clinton maintained a low public profile, built relationships with senators from both parties and forged alliances with religiously-inclined senators by becoming a regular participant in the Senate Prayer Breakfast.

Clinton has served on five Senate committees: Committee on Budget (2001–2002), Committee on Armed Services (since 2003), Committee on Environment and Public Works (since 2001),<207> Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (since 2001) and Special Committee on Aging.
She is also a Commissioner of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe (since 2001).


Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, Clinton sought to obtain funding for the recovery efforts in New York City and security improvements in her state. Working with New York's senior senator, Charles Schumer, she was instrumental in quickly securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment. She subsequently took a leading role in investigating the health issues faced by 9/11 first responders.

Clinton voted for the USA Patriot Act in October 2001. In 2005, when the act was up for renewal, she worked to address some of the civil liberties concerns with it, before voting in favor of a compromise renewed act in March 2006 that gained large majority support.

Clinton strongly supported the 2001 U.S. military action in Afghanistan, saying it was a chance to combat terrorism while improving the lives of Afghan women who suffered under the Taliban government.

Clinton voted in favor of the October 2002 Iraq War Resolution.

In September 2007 she voted in favor of a Senate resolution calling on the State Department to label the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps "a foreign terrorist organization", which passed 76-22.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton



she opposes the international treaty to ban land mines.

She voted against the Feinstein-Leahy amendment last September restricting U.S. exports of cluster bombs to countries that use them against civilian-populated areas.

She opposes restrictions on U.S. arms transfers and police training to governments that engage in gross and systematic human rights abuses, such as Egypt, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Israel, Pakistan, Cameroon and Chad, to name only a few.

She has challenged the credibility of Amnesty International and other human rights groups that criticize policies of the United States and its allies.
Mrs. Clinton has been one of the Senate’s most outspoken critics of the United Nations, even serving as the featured speaker at rallies outside U.N. headquarters in July 2004 and last summer to denounce the world body.

She was one of the most prominent critics of the International Court of Justice for its landmark 2004 advisory ruling that the Fourth Geneva Conventions on the Laws of War is legally binding on all signatory nations.

She condemned the United Nations’ judicial arm for challenging the legality of Israel’s separation barrier in the occupied West Bank and sponsored a Senate resolution “urging no further action by the United Nations to delay or prevent the construction of the security fence.”

Mrs. Clinton has shown little regard for the danger from proliferation of nuclear weapons, not only opposing the enforcement of U.N. Security Council resolutions challenging Pakistan, Israel and India’s nuclear weapons programs but supporting the delivery of nuclear-capable missiles and jet fighters to these countries. This past fall she voted to suspend important restrictions on U.S. nuclear cooperation with countries that violate the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

At the same time, she insists that the prospect of Iran’s developing nuclear weapons “must be unacceptable to the entire world,” since challenging the nuclear monopoly of the United States and its allies in the region would somehow “shake the foundation of global security to its very core.”

She accused the Bush administration of not taking the threat of a nuclear Iran seriously enough, criticized the administration for allowing European nations to take the lead in pursuing a diplomatic solution and insisted that the United States should make it clear that military options were still being actively considered.
http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0309-23.htm














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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. The charm about Hillary is that there isn't anything that hasn't been
"found out" about her. Ken Starr worked with a staff & unlimited budget for 7 years to do what the Obama piss ants are trying to do now.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. There is plenty,
but please, keep your mask on, and keep repeating that to yourself.

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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Yes, Starr & the GOP gave her a pass & left it up to you.
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
73. That's because she hasn't shared her tax returns with us
But Hillary has a long past of corruption that we DO already know about, hence her being a poor, unelectable candidate to run this country.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. They'll be there, not that you would possibly understand them anyway.
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 12:54 AM by The_Casual_Observer
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chitty Donating Member (918 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Throw in a
little Huma Abedin just for good measure.

WTF - Let's get muddy.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. The spin is making me dizzy.
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 11:42 PM by NJSecularist
:crazy: :crazy:

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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. K & R!
Go Hillary!
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. Woo-hoo! Negative campaining works! No worries.
Barack is just getting warmed up.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. is he gonna prove all that nice guy stuff was just a marketing strategy? nt
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Yes, swiftboating the Clintons to win SC and use that mo on ST was crucial for Obama
;)
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
74. There is nothing more ironic than seeing
a Hillary fan getting indignant over negative campaigning.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. 5 points? What's the margin of error?
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. She leads by 15. The margin of error is 4.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. her numbers only went up 5-6 points, big fucking deal. With margin of error of 4
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 11:42 PM by cryingshame
LOL
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Going from +4 to +15 is huge, especially since we were told O's momentum was unstoppable
:D
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. And she will still lose
in pledged delegates if she win PA by 15. And if they redo MI and FL.

Why is she still in the race again?
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. What about the popular vote?
She shaved 300k off of Obama's lead just this Tuesday and she beat him by 300k in Florida alone earlier...
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
40. Unfortunately, we count based on delegates rewarded.
In the state primaries and caucuses Obama's been in, he's simply won more delegates simply because he won a majority of the vote of a particular state.

If we had a national primary where everybody voted at once, yeah.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #40
54. We also count superdelegates
If the argument is a principled one that holds the popular will should decide it then the one who wins the most votes should be the nominee. Obama's camp is being hypocritical because they no there is a good chance they will lose the popular vote but narrowly win the pledged delegate count based on winning by huge margins in sham caucuses in which 6 people voted.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #54
76. Well, it doesn't seem like the superdelegates will overturn the pledged delegate count now.
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 02:48 AM by Selatius
That'll cause a schism between the leadership of the party and the the rank-and-file, at a time when McCain is already on the attack. If it happens, I guarantee you in the future the super delegate system will be removed permanently in the next round of reforms to the primary voting system.
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. my my my how fickled voters are
a little mo and people jump on the bandwagon.
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. VERY IMPORTANT for me to know, is PA
a closed primary?

Dont; want any republi-cans voting this time...
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. Yes, rethugs and other ringers can't save Obama in PA
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Great. Hillary will not be able to be saved by repukes
this time around..
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. Closed.
So the Limpball drones won't be able to slide over and vote for Hillary like they did in OH and TX.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Sad J_d. You know Obama won the rethug vote in both states
He just didn't get his traditional 75-21/70-30 split. Thankfully. Had he done so he would have won Texas on the rethug vote alone like he did in Missouri.
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Yes. PA is a closed primary.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. She may win the nomination, by saying mccain is more qualified then Obama to be president
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 11:42 PM by still_one
but she will NEVER get my vote

If she get the Democratic nomination, my response is not voting for president in 2008

what she has suceeded in doing is convert me from someone who would have voted for WHOEVER the Democratic nominee was, to anyone but, hillary or mccain

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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
46. Anyone but BO
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:42 PM
Original message
Let's "Hope" it goes up to twenty.
The Sniffers have been melting down at record speed since Tuesday.:hi:
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. Wow! If she maintains that margin (which she won't), she would net all of 15-20 delegates.
Hillary would only have to find 120(ish) more to catch up to Obama.

Of course, whatever gains she makes in PA will likely be offset by Obama gains in NC and OR.

Sorry.
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Quiet! Rodeo might come here and tell you to go someplace
else. Nothing hurts more than those subject line scoldings.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. Who leads NC post-3/4?
That is the point of this post. Momentum matters a great deal. Obama would be lucky to be tied in NC right now, not that it matters. Let's see how things stand when North Carolina rolls around.

Obama's camp is focused on pledged delegates but, curiously for folks who claim to have such a great interest in the popular will, say 0 about the popular vote. PA can allow her to erase another 250-350k off of Obama's slim popular vote lead, and pad her existing lead among Democratic voters.
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Bok_Tukalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. I agree about the popular vote
Clinton may take that because of the delegate strenth of Obama in caucus states (although I do not know how you factor in the Texas Two Step in that .... I voted twice).
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #42
51. Texas exposed the caucuses for what they are
Obama is winning the caucus (only 41% of the results are in) 56-44 while losing the primary where everyone has equal access to voting 51-47. In Washington he won the caucus 68-31 but won the primary only 50-47.
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Bok_Tukalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. People do not have equal access to the caucus?
I was there and only those who did not vote in the Democratic Primary could not participate. Is that what you mean? There was not equal access to those who voted in the Republican Primary or chose not to vote?
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. On paper yes, in reality now
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 12:31 AM by jackson_dem
It is much more difficult for working folk to attend caucuses than show up in a voting booth, cast a vote, then leave at any time of your choosing. Working folk are Hill's base and Obama's weakest income group and is a large reason for his caucus success.
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Bok_Tukalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #58
63. Ah. The problem with caucuses, I agree.
I prefer open primaries.

But I do not like the Electoral College either but we have to deal with what we have.

Personally, I think if it were all open primaries, Clinton would be closer in delegates but further behind in the popular vote but that is just speculation. How can we know? We can only judge by what is in front of us.
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. Don't worry. Hillary is going to win PA by 40%+
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. that's just
fuzzy math..
:rofl:
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. nope. Expect Obama to be in the high teens on April 22nd!
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Blondiegrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
52. Silly Obamite! NC and OR don't count!
Nor will Wyoming or Mississippi count. You should know that by now! :evilgrin:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. I think the garbage move she did on NAFTA is going to be temporary
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 11:43 PM by mmonk
and is fooling people right now. Remember, gloves are off now. Time to slime the slime machine.
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. is PA a closed primary?
doesn't anyone know?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
24. Pennsylvania is still ahead of other upcoming primaries. The momentum could be lost by then.
Depending on primaries and caucuses in Wyoming and Mississippi as well as future events, a lot can change between today and April 22. In that regard, April 22 is very far away.
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Tribetime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
27. delegate net ? it's over
supers said they wont overturn pledged. Daschle just said on Daily show, and they want to end it quick.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. Popular will=popular vote
Or at least that was the longstanding principle of the party of Jackson.
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Bok_Tukalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. Jackson was an ethnic cleansing monster
Bad form to use him as a standard bearer.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Why is the Democratic party called that?
Why was this name chosen?

Jackson is the founder of the party. There is a reason it is called the Democratic party.

Yes, every leader who doesn't match modern standards is a bad man. Let's get real. The world was different then and it is foolish to hold Jackson, Jefferson, Washington, Lincoln, FDR (segregation), or even JFK (appointed some segregationist judges and was no profile in civil rights courage in the senate) to today's standards. Even our current Democratic heroes will be looked at as backwards in the future given their opposition to gay marriage.
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Bok_Tukalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Some things transcend the temporal issues of the time
Jackson was a monster. Even the Supreme Court could not check his ethnic cleansing.

But perhaps I am biased with so much of my family being from Oklahoma. I am sure what he did was for the "greater good."
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #50
61. He was on that issue
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 12:17 AM by jackson_dem
And so were Washington and Jefferson for not only not outlawing slavery but owning slaves themselves or Lincoln for wanting to send all African-Americans out of the country, FDR for his own ethnic cleansing. Yet virtually all Americans revere these presidents today and rightfully so. For their time they were great leaders. Even Obama and Clinton will be looked at as backwards in the future given their position on gay rights.

He founded the party and we need to trace our history to understand the fundamental things our party has always stood for, being for the common man is the most fundamental Democratic principle and the party fought to maximize public participation and the franchise from the very beginning.
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Bok_Tukalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. You misunderstand
Jackson was considered backward in his time.

Not later.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. Yes
But it wasn't what it would be seen as today. A president who tried that, or what FDR did, today would be removed from office and what Washington and Jefferson did is now outlawed.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. and the currently unelected Daschle speaks for all 800+ superdelegates.
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 11:51 PM by jsamuel
:eyes:
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Tribetime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. that would mean tom's lying??
he wouldn't do that would he?
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #39
57. Funny how they demand the "will of the people" be followed but never mention the popular vote
They know Obama may lose the popular vote (well, he is right now if you count Michigan and Florida) but win the pledged delegate count narrowly because of lopsided wins in sham caucuses in which 6 people and ringers voted.
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Tribetime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. I agree with you
whoever wins the popular vote should win
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Tribetime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #57
68. I don't know what michigan /florida are
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 12:42 AM by Tribetime
scratch that she does have a slight lead 34,000 with them.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. Hill beat him by 300k in Florida and beat him 337k to 0 since he disenfranchised his voters in MI
In order to suck up to Iowa and New Hampshire.

If there is a revote and coupled with Pennsyvania and even just an even split in the other states (some are favorable to Hillary like Indiana, Kentucky, and West Virginia) while others favor Obama (Wyoming and Missisppi) she could very well win the popular vote. She shaved about 250k off of his lead in Ohio alone. Pennsylvania is a larger state and she won't be swimming against the tide like she was in Ohio. She could very easily gain another 350k there alone and then there are the revotes...
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Tribetime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. 34,000 lead for her
if he stays at zero in michigan which will probably change to some pct.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
31. hoot
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NoBorders Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
33. Or the slimiest campagin wins.
We'll see.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Damn, then Hill is toast
:scared:
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NoBorders Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Actually, I would say Clinton has run the slimier campaign.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
43. Any poll conducted so many weeks before the actual vote is
pretty much meaningless. Wait until both candidates get a chance to start campaigning there.

Besides that, even if Clinton did win by the margin specified in that poll, which I doubt will happen, all she would do is come close to making back the delegates that Obama will win in Wyoming and Mississippi.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
44. I am an Obama supporter, but also a fan of Hillary's. This also shows...
IMO, the contempt many show Clinton supporters by their treatment of their candidate. These Pennsylvanians -- the Ohioans, the Texans, the Californians, the New Yorkers who voted for Hillary -- are a large part of our party, folks. These are our people, just as much as the Gen Yers and intellectuals and others who support Obama. They have dignity and deserve respect, and they see in Hillary someone they can put their trust in. I hate that we dismiss and even hate our own.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #44
53. maybe its against hillary, and not her supporters. after all hillary endorsed mccain over Obama
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #53
69. Hillary did not endorse McCain.
She pointed out, rightly so, that Obama's experience would look very, very small up against McCain's.
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
47. They Polled 690 People Out Of 12 Million...
Just sayin'.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #47
62. Just like last week
When Obamites, rightfully, touted the poll as evidence of the momentum he had then. ;)
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. Last Week Was 820 - But Trending The Correct Way
:hi:
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
56. K & R ! For the lady, the fighter!
FIRED UP!
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TheDeathadder Donating Member (731 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
59. I'm loving it
It feels so good to be a Clitnon Supporter. It's awesome to know she's going to win and it's awesome to see it drive all the negative DU Obama Supporters crazy.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
65. "Clinton leads by twelve percentage points among union members"
Wow, that's gonna sting when they realize they've been duped. Mrs. WalMart, who sues unions to block voters, is getting union supporters? Ouchies.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
71. GO MAMA!!!!!
:woohoo:
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Yes We Did Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
77. PA is in Late April... Curb your enthusiasm... my friend
A lot will happen by the time the PA primaries hit. Clinton may not even be viable after the torrent of news in the coming weeks. Those polls never stay solid. And the demographic of PA has changed.

News for you. Clinton was supposed to beat Obama by HUGE margins in both Ohio and TX. She won Ohio by 10. She didn't really win TX if you put the Primary and caucus together. He won TEXAS. He got the most delegates as well.

Those polls are going to tighten up very fast after he wins Wyoming and Miss. He will take it to Clinton on the stump.

By time Obama is done with Clinton it will look like she's married to John McCain and cheating with Bush.
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Yes We Did Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
78. The Democratic Party sees what she is doing... Her only hope is...
that the Florida and Michigan delegates will be seated. That's not going to happen the way she would like. The Obama camp will never go for it. If Clinton and Obama can't come to an agreement then the rules as they were laid out stand. They can be at the convention but the delegates will not count.

This country needs a break from the likes of Clinton. That is what will happen. She is much too divisive for this country and people are tired of more of the same.
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Yes We Did Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
79. You think Vote rigging didn't happen in Ohio and Texas? Diebold
You are off your rocker if you can believe in those primary numbers. Ohio 08 is just like Kerry/Bush 2004. These two states use Diebold. You think vote rigging won't happen in PA?

Caucus' are the best way to stay transparent. They are very organized and people can see what you're doing.

In primaries, with diebold attached you know it's rigged.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
80. not enough
double that might be enough.

Sorry... you'll just have to vote for McCain, like Hillary would want you to.
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