I am not an Obamaite or an Obamaton I am a Fucking Democrat

[walldude]

Who up until two days ago supported both candidates with my wallet. I didn't care who won as long as we got a DEMOCRAT in office. Well two days ago one of the DEMOCRATIC candidates had this to say about her party opponent:

"I have experience. John McCain has experience. Obama has speeches." Today that same candidate compared her esteemed opponent to piece of shit Repuke lawyer Ken Starr.

Being a democrat, I have a slight problem when another Democrat is willing to throw the whole party under the bus if she doesn't get her way. I announced 2 days ago that because of the 3am ad and the statements made by HRC I have no choice as a Democrat but to throw my weight behind Obama. I can't in good conscience send any money to a person who has shown that she cares nothing about the party or the American people, only about winning(quite the Republican philosophy, win at all costs).

You can call me a cult follower, a fool, an Obamaite, an Obamaton, a sucker, or any of the many other names I have been hung with over the last 2 days. Sticks and Stones. I, up until 2 days ago was undecided, if being a Democrat who supports the party before a specific candidate makes me a cult follower in your eyes then so be it. I'd much rather have that on my head than support a candidate who would rather see a Republican in office then her Democratic opponent.

[jobycom]

1. I dumped Obama when he praised Reagan and accused Clinton of attacking MLK.

So we're even. :)

[leftofcool]

3. I did too

[JorgeTheGood]

9. ditto here + his threat to pre-emptively attack Pakistan ... n/t

[krkaufman]

119. So you're in the camp that real live terrorists (some do exist) ...

... can be allowed to have known safe havens, protected by either complicit, ineffective or constrained governments? That's a great strategy.

Obama's "~last resort~" conditionals are eminently different than Bush (and Clinton) preemption.

[walldude]

5. MIssed that one.. got a link?

Oh and if what you say is true then I assume you have no defense for what either of them did? Did Obama tell the American people that he and McCain were worthy of the office but not Hillary?

[jobycom]

15. You're a donor, just search DU. nt

[walldude]

22. Ok done.

I saw where Obama "praised" Reagan. Don't agree with what he said but agree with his right to say it. Just like I agree that Hillary had every right to throw my money out the window when she endorsed McCain. I couldn't find anything about the MLK comments.

Comparing what she did and what he did are two different things. He did not endorse a Republican opponent over her for President, he said something um.. stupid. If that were a criteria for supporting candidates I'd not be voting. If he does throw a bone to McCain, then he will also lose my financial support.

[jobycom]

35. She didn't

She didn't endorse McCain, she pointed out that without experience Obama was going to have a hard time beating McCain. I've said the same things many times, and I'm glad to see her finally striking out on important issues.

I'd be willing to overlook Obama's "stupid" comments if he had some record for me to judge him on. But since all he has are words--which are admittedly at times brilliant and breathtakingly inspiring--I have to judge him on his words, and what he chooses to do with them. So far he claims to be a new politician with a message of hope, but every time he falls behind he becomes the same old politician, slinging mud, making misleading accusations--you heard his comments on the Daily Show about having to say things he knew weren't true, I'm sure.

If he had a record for me to look at, I could get over some of this. But it's all he has, and while he often inspires me, he doesn't inspire my confidence in his ability to be president. His Reagan comment, and his race-baiting of Clinton over MLK, decided the matter for me.

[walldude]

43. Bullshit. What she said, and she has said it more than once

was that McCain is more qualified to be president than Obama. Which besides being bullshit, sounds like a ringing endorsement to me. And if you don't think McCain will use those clips in the general if he faces Obama, you are sadly mistaken. I can see the ads now, "Even his own party says he's not experienced enough".

[dajoki]

91. Then I guess...

we'll have to nominate Hillary, so the thugs can't use those clips.:rofl: BTW, I have still not decided which one I will support, and being that my state (PA) may finally have some say in the outcome, I am taking it very seriously!!

[dajoki]

92. Double post n/t

[bvar22]

95. The outcome HAS been decided.

Obama WILL go to the convention with the MAJORITY of pledged delegates.
The MATH is indisputable.

What happens in Pennsylvania, Florida, or Michigan will NOT change that fact.

[dajoki]

103. I don't think it has n/t

[RazBerryBeret]

73. IF he had a record?

what? you obviously are computer literate...why don't you google Obama and Legislative Record....

I find that pretty offensive, and it makes you look uneducated. Obama sponsored 823 bills in his eight years in the Illinois Senate (that would be over 100 bills a year) .


HOW can you call 233 Bills on HEALTH CARE nothing?

125 Bills re: POVERTY and PUBLIC assistance? NOTHING?

Ps. these are issues near and dear to most Dem's hearts.....

[lmbradford]

101. because....

Hillary has SO MUCH foreign policy experience. Once Laura Bush serves a term as senator, she will also be a HUGE opponent for president. She will have all of that experience plus it was in a time of war. OMG! I dread the election in four years. I'm scared of Laura! Help, what will we do?

snark/

[RazBerryBeret]

120. forget Laura....

How about Barbara?

[MH1]

110. And that record has been posted scads of times at DU.

Any non-newbie DUer claiming Obama doesn't have a record to look at is either lying or not trying.

[RazBerryBeret]

121. exactly....

not trying and with blinders on. but if you keep saying something over and over again, it becomes true.... crazy!

[OnionPatch]

98. That's really not how it sounded to me.

If she had said it in the same context that you did, it would be different, but it sure sounded like she thought McCain was much more qualified than Obama. Period. I'm sure I'm not the only one who heard it this way.

[ginnyinWI]

127. you could read his book, The Audacity of Hope.

That's how I got familiar with his policies, positions, philosophies and accomplishments.

[ginnyinWI]

126. what he said about Reagan was a simple fact.

He certainly wasn't endorsing Reagan policies. He simply stated that Reagan's presidency was transformational in this country--because it was. He was illustrating the kind of presidency he himself hopes to have. He compared it with Bill Clinton's which he said was, unfortunately not transformational.

To me this shows the ability to think above partisan politics. He was actively working against Reaganomics in Chicago at the time, so nobody should misconstrue this as admiration for Ronny.

[Kajsa]

Isn't the one making the claim(s)

suppose to back it up with a link?

That method really cuts down on the BS around here.

[olkaz]

6. it blows my mind that the hillary camp is still trying to compare these two things

McCain is the Republican candidate for the 2008 election.

Reagan... IS FREAKING DEAD.

Swish that around a little bit, and when you still can't see the difference, then we'll know for sure.

[jobycom]

29. It blows my mind that you accuse me of being in the Hillary camp.

I'm a Democratic voter, just like the OP. I don't like what I see of one candidate, I somewhat like what I see of another. I don't camp with anyone, and if I did, it wouldn't be a politician. :)

As for her McCain comments, they seem accurate enough to me. She'll support Obama in the GE if he wins, right now she's just campaigning. Her point was more that if Obama faces McCain in the GE, he's going to get creamed because he has no experience.

Reagan kicked off his campaign in 1980 in Philadelphia, MS, implicitly praising the unpunished murders of three civil rights activists and promising to support the South against the federal attempts at desegregation. He was the most vile human being to ever hold the presidency, even more so than W. Combine that with his race-baiting of Clinton over her LBJ remarks, and I don't trust the guy. He says he is new politician, but when he falls behind, he begins campaigning just like the old ones. Where's his judgement? Where are his new ideas? Is he going to fall back on the old methods if we are attacked or our gas prices keep climbing?

Your answers to those questions may be different than mine, which is why we hold elections. But I don't like my answers to those questions.

[olkaz]

34. I just don't know how to respond to that

How can you dance around this? Seriously, forget everything for a second.

McCain is the Republican presidential candidate. The guy that you want to defeat. The guy that could keep us from taking the country back in the right direction.

Reagan... is... dead. DEAD.

This is such a low hurdle. Seriously.

[jobycom]

40. I'm equally at a loss for words.

She didn't endorse McCain, she pointed out an Obama shortcoming by referencing McCain. Obama praised the most racist, vile president we've ever had. You are right, it's a low hurdle to get over. One shows Clinton making a valid comparison, the other shows Obama praising a force of evil.

And only Reagan's body is dead. His soul--that evil soul--drives the Republican Party. Obama inspired more people to vote Republican than Clinton did by praising the soul of the Republican Party.

[olkaz]

84. here are the quotes

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/04/clinton-mccain-has-more-_n_89758.html
"I think that I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002."

Paraphrased:
I have experience.
McCain has experience.
Obama does not have experience.

"She didn't endorse McCain, she pointed out an Obama shortcoming by referencing McCain."

Examine the paraphrased version. It's so obvious. But in case it's not, consider this. Would you consider this a wise tactic? Buying into your angle here, do you think it is politically wise (and good for our interests) to reference positive examples of living and currently running Republicans against living and currently running Democrats?


http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/01/obama_reagan_changed_direction_of_country_in_way_bill_clinton_didnt.php
"But I think, when I think about great presidents, I think about those who transform how we think about ourselves as a country in fundamental ways...And, you know, there are circumstances in which, I would argue, Ronald Reagan was a very successful president, even though I did not agree with him on many issues, partly because at the end of his presidency, people, I think, said, “You know what? We can regain our greatness. Individual responsibility and personal responsibility are important.” And they transformed the culture and not simply promoted one or two particular issues."

I agree with you completely about Reagan. He was a butcher and a charlatan whose damage will resonate for decades. Period. We're on the same level here.

But consider the objective truth of what Obama is referencing.

"people, I think, said, “You know what? We can regain our greatness. Individual responsibility and personal responsibility are important.” And they transformed the culture"

This happened. It really did. People believed in America and there was a wave of pride through the country. It happened.

That objective truth is what Obama wants to recreate. That's what he's saying. He's saying Reagan was successful in that he was able to create this. He clearly denounces Reagan.

He clearly denounces Reagan.
"even though I did not agree with him on many issues,"

He clearly denounces Reagan.
"even though I did not agree with him on many issues,"

He clearly denounces Reagan.
"even though I did not agree with him on many issues,"

"Obama inspired more people to vote Republican than Clinton did by praising the soul of the Republican Party."

"the other shows Obama praising a force of evil."

He praised the sentiment Reagan created, he didn't praise the man himself.

I give up.

[TheDoorbellRang]

88. It doesn't get much clearer than this.

Way to go, olkaz. :thumbsup:

You should post more often.

[MH1]

111. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

I agree, great post by olkaz.

[walldude]

46. Dude, she can't "support Obama in the GE" she already threw in

with McCain. Read my post above. What is she going to do deny she ever said what she did? The videos are all over the net. It's too late. If she loses the primary Obama has an even tougher battle because of what she said.

[bunny planet]

31. great 29th post

You are so right and you made me laugh

[stellanoir]

12. He didn't praise Reagan.

He said that he changed the trajectory of the country but added no qualifier as to whether or not it was in a good direction.

[jobycom]

16. That's a real stretch.

His words and tone were praising.

[stellanoir]

20. Not as I heard it.

[EmilyAnne]

33. Bullshit. And he said that the policies were not good. He has said that so many times.

[Alamom]

17. Yes he did...the qualifier was in the same sentence. He compared Reagan to Clinton (42.)

He said Reagan changed the trajectory of the country like no other had, even Bill Clinton. People were looking for change...something different and Reagan was it (sound familiar?)


It was praise.....


If you haven't seen it, you need to watch it.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaoYD7iZG9w



edit to add link

[stellanoir]

19. If you look at the reincarnated Iran/Contra players in this current

misadministration, his point is clear.

It wasn't praise as I heard it at all.

[Alamom]

25. I added the youtube link. It is praise.nm

[stellanoir]

30. Not Reagan "was it"

Reagan tapped into it.

Big diff

[Cha]

38. Yeah, that was a disingenous reason..walldude

has a real one..so you're not even.

hilary's dissembling dept put the smear out on that when it was her husband who actually enacted raygun type policies. So you got screwed by hilary again.

[krkaufman]

118. Exactly the same point I just tried making.

(here) Obama's statement was actually a subtle rebuke of Clinton's continuation of Conservative policies.

[SIMPLYB1980]

42. Yep me to. And the Donnie McClurkin thing.

[damonm]

52. Time to educate - AGAIN:

Obama DID NOT praise Ronald Reagan's policies. He commented on THE UNDENIABLE FACT (unless you're wearing the Democratic version of the reality-distorting partisan blinders - the Republican version makes you think JFK would be a conservative were he alive today & other absurdities)that Reagan had an uncanny ability to tap into the public mood, and used that to transform the dialogue in American politics.
Obama has a similar ability, and could well transform the dialogue to a more progressive-friendly one.
THAT is one of the reasons I support him - he could turn out to be the Anti-Reagan we've needed for over 2 decades.
Now, we throw in Clinton's scorched-earth tactics, and I support Obama even MORE strongly.

[Abacus]

53. For the sixth time, (so far no response)

can you provide a quote of Obama accusing Clinton of attacking MLK?

[damonm]

66. So it's BS, as I suspected.

[walldude]

71. I searched DU and Google and came up with nothing

We could go back and forth all day about what's true and what isn't. The fact is there are videos all over the internet of Hillary praising McCain and berating Obama all at the same time. Videos you know McCain will be using during the GE should Obama win.

[Abacus]

97. Yep. /nt

[Kokonoe]

67. And Now You dumped Obama for

McCain Are You sure your an Ass,(I AM)
Reread the post.

[SeaLyons]

68. Me Too

but we're going to see so much of this back and forth slamming over the coming weeks, I'm not going to pay any attention to it. I support Hillary, and nothing that will be posted on this board will change that.

[jeffrey_X]

70. Where did he praise Reagan exactly?

Please link the exact quote.

Thanks.

[lmbradford]

102. he simply said....

that Reagan talked to foreign leaders when others had been unwilling and accomplished something good because of it......he also said that Reagan brought a lot of Dems to the Republican Party because he was willing to listen to their concerns....also correct. Obama is using these same tactics for the good of the Democratic Party. What is wrong with that? nothing..........He also said that his economice plan will be the opposite of Reagans. He wants trickle up instead of trickle down.

[emilyg]

72. I did, too.

[stillcool]

106. Funny the things that don't bother...

some people...

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail

A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out."

"Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34

Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs

Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008

The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's Super Tuesday primary, which she won.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html

Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says.

Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.
Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."
Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proud Democrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.

January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET

The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis.
----------
Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused.

Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.
Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg
That whole Reagan think ran out of gas a long time ago...well...to those who actually read. Did you make it this far?

[Spider Jerusalem]

109. I suppose you're not bothered by Hillary's praise of Margaret Thatcher?

[krkaufman]

117. Great point. Except Obama never "praised Reagan."

Previous post on the matter.

I'm certain you inferred praise, but it wasn't stated or implied. The statement was actually a subtle criticism of Conservativism & Reaganomics -- and, most importantly, the fact that Bill Clinton effectively continued those policies.

[mmonk]

2. I with you.

Can't tell the good guys from the bad guys anymore. Can't get any elected officials to hear us. I'm pretty disenfranchised.

[blm]

4. I think now people are willing to SEE how Gore and Kerry as nominees were undermined

by TeamClinton as a way of keeping their own leadership of the Dem party. And how they are even undermining Dean's leadership of the DNC.

The difference now is that because it is Hillary's race they are more exposed to all of us AS they are maneuvering against the other Dem seeking to oppose them.

[RandomKoolzip]

7. It'd be nice if the liberal half of America had SOME sort of representation in government.

Right now, an Obama administration is the closest alternative I can foresee.

[Benhurst]

11. If that's the best we can do,

then I've lost all "Hope."

We had some good candidates, but we are now left with what has floated to the top.

[RandomKoolzip]

26. Think of it this way:

The conservative half of America gets their every whim indulged, their every wish fulfilled, when a republican is elected.

The liberal half is constantly told to stop being so demanding when a Democrat is elected; but occasionally, when the stars are aligned JUST RIGHT, a liberal piece of legislation gets passed. Even THAT slender hope is extinguished under a republican administration.

The ultimate irony is that the liberal half is larger than the conservative half. It's fucking sad.

But it's the only system we've got, so our only chance to get something happening is to vote for either Dem; and to my eyes (YMMV), Obama has a batter chance of winning.

[Benhurst]

41. I agree with most of what your saying,

but I think Hillary has the better chance in the general election.
:shrug:
Either is going to have a tougher time than most here are willing to admit.

Either way, it's a heads you lose, tails you lose-- but just not by as much as if McCain gets in.

[fascisthunter]

13. That's Where I'm at Right Now

[mmonk]

39. That's why I'm in his camp.

Mainly comparing the people and the advisors is how I came to the conclusion to support him. The fact the DLC will do anything to sabotage any possibility of him winning including taking the party into the sewer bears out my decision as the better choice.

[Bluerthanblue]

8. now her campaign is calling Obama "Ken Starr" for wanting accountability

This will prove to be her swan song.

America is tired of leaders who are not open with the public.
Hillary does not like scrutiny.
She thought she was immune.

peace~

[KoKo]

28. Maybe it's because Obama Campaign Op said "Hillary needs to be slapped around, more."

There's some pretty rough stuff coming from Obama's side, too. Plus his Ops were out this morning talking about Whitewater and Travel Office firings.

I wish they'd both go after Bush/Cheney rather than each other. But, then I guess that's a little dangerous considering they have to depend on the Bush/Cheney Secret Service for their protection.

[Bluerthanblue]

32. did Obama's campaign actually say that?

could you link it for me?

Thanks-

:hi:


peace~

[KoKo]

44. His Campaign Manager David Plouff....here's link:

I mispelled Plouff's name in my post. Looked up for correct spelling.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4923952&mesg_id=4923952

[purji]

54. amazingly i didn't see the words slaped around

[walldude]

64. Me neither, but I do think it would be a mistake for Obama

to bring up the Clinton presidency. Whether David Shuster says so or not. This election has nothing to do with Clinton's 8 years. That was a long time ago and much has changed since then. My weight may be behind Obama but I don't want him to sink as low as she has, she will still get my vote if she is the nominee and he doesn't need to arm the republicans like she did.

[Bluerthanblue]

60. Thanks, but geez, I must be really

slow KoKo01- I read the whole thread, as well as the replies, and didn't see the quote, or a link-

Did I miss it entirely?
:shrug:
Thanks

peace~

[anigbrowl]

75. Doesn't say anything about slapping anyone around.

Where's the beef?

[ginnyinWI]

128. I can hear her singing even now

It's right there between the lines. She is in self-destruct mode.

Oh and pay no attention to the talking heads on TV! All they want is a horse race. Whichever one is down, that's the one they try to revive and boost. They were doing it for Obama before; now they're doing it for HRC. Horse race=$$$$$$, an it's so much easier than actually committing journalism!

[fascisthunter]

10. It's Her own Negativity That Makes Her Unelectable

not only negativity, however just plain dishonest.

[Pachamama]

14. I have felt the same way as you...and up until the recent negative campaigning by the Clinton's and

her responses on 60 minutes to the question of Obama being a Muslim, I would have been happy with either candidate. But after these recent negative actions and comments from her, including the marginalizing of Obama and putting McCain ahead of her opponent in terms of qualifications, I have had it with her.

[Up2Late]

18. Prove it, start challenging the Obama Zombies who have taken over DU...

...and then the maybe the other Democrats here will believe you.

And if you don't think we have a problem with Obama Zombies, then you either haven't been paying attention, or you are one of them. The problem is real.

Don't believe me, just post something pro-Hillery and watch them come out of the wood work. The True Obama Democrats here need to clean house, no matter how much it hurts. We can't do it for you.

[walldude]

36. You're right I haven't been paying attention.

I just supported them both and was waiting for the candidate to be chosen so I could throw my full weight behind them.

And maybe you can explain what an "Obama-Zombie" is and how they differ from the "Hillary-Zombies".

After that, instead of calling me a zombie, perhaps you can explain your support for a Democrat who is willing to throw the party under the bus if she doesn't get the nomination.

I stood by both candidates until one of them did something to specifically damage the Democrats chances of winning. No Hillary supporter has been able to reasonably defend what she said. Like you, they just trash Obama's supporters or Obama, and continue to avoid the question.

Oh and I'll prove whatever it is you want me to prove about whatever it is you want me to prove as soon as you explain how Hillary's comment did anything but damage the party in the general.

[Up2Late]

63. See, there you go. I did NOT call you an Obama Zombie, I said to prove you are not one by...

...taking action against them.

Your reaction to my post, and either your failure to and comprehend my comment for what it was, or your willful disregard for what I wrote, and then the posting a clearly distorted reply to it, THAT is what we are talking about here. That is the reply of maybe not a lead Zombie, but you definitely are following a few.

More in a minute, I need to get my coffee IV going.

[walldude]

113. My bad, you didn't call me a zombie.. true

but I did respond honestly to your post. You want me to take action against the "Obama-Zombies" when I have already thrown in with Obama? They're my zombies! I'm sure you spend all day posting wonderful shit about Obama just so you can challenge the Hillary supporters :crazy:


And btw I don't "follow" anyone. Hillary played the Rove card with the 3am ad then she proceeded to insinuate that the Republican candidate is more qualified than Obama. I didn't choose to back Obama, I was pushed there by Hillary. Sorry if throwing the party under the bus wasn't enough for you, it was for me. That said I'll still vote for her if she wins the nom...

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. And I'm not a Hillbot. We are both Democrats n/t

[walldude]

27. Never called anyone a Hillbot or any other name.

And if you are a Democrat how to you reconcile your support for a person willing to throw Democrats under the bus if she loses?


No one has come up with a defense that would make me change my mind. If someone could explain to me how her statements help the Democratic party and aren't just self serving pablum I'd be happy to hear with an open mind.

[Redstone]

23. Well-said. That was a very inadvisable comment on her part.

Redstone

[grantcart]

24. tks

[burythehatchet]

37. DUDE!!

You decided to come in here. You were warned. Best advice: Don't come back and forget you ever came in.

[walldude]

48. It's like heroin... not that I got a taste, I can't stop!

Actually I can. And I will. I should have never thrown in, I still gotta vote for the Dem anyway and this forum is like chasing your tale. At least in coming in here for a few days I feel like I made the right decision.



Hey waitaminute! What are you doing in here. Get back in GD and post something good so I have a reason to leave here. The puppy story is just depressing me.
Great, my GD choices are depression in GD or stress in GDP. I love this place. :crazy:

[americanstranger]

51. Yeah, i've been here since last week.

Wandered in and now I can't seem to find the exit.

- as

[Omega3]

45. that's funny b/c most oblahmabots have done everything they can to discredit Bill Clinton, the

greatest Dem. President since FDR. they've actually called him a racist, tried to tarnish his reputation and record as President. Not too Democratic to me.

guess what: John McCain and Hillary Clinton both do have more experience than a 2 year junior Senator from Illinois. What important pcs of legislation has he passed? What committees has he sat on and deliberated on that have such a bearing on the election and the current Zeitgeist of politics? He's done nothing, has a blase voting record intentionally so he could run for the white house. we know next to nothing about him, can't realistically say what type of judges he would appoint.

He runs on hope and change b/c he's got nothing else! Any politician who has no experience runs on hope and change, but in today's complex world the American public demands more.

the thing that bothers me most is somebody says a few critical things about BHO and you all are up in arms about it. Faux outrage to the max! Like he's above critisism. How will you handle it if he gets the nom when the GOP hate machine attacks him. What's gone on is really tame in comparison to what may happen. He has so many negatives and so many way the gop can attack him, all dirty. The media has mostly given him a free ride, if he received the same coverage as HC has gotten it wouldn't be close.

[walldude]

56. Well I'm not an "oblahmabots" I am a Democrat

So your answer is it was Ok for Hillary to give McCain a ringing endorsement to use against Obama should he win. Good for you. Great plan too. Should help us out in the general election. :eyes:

Oh and BTW am I up in arms about something that was said about Obama? No I am up in arms about a Democrat throwing the whole party under the bus. I would have thrown in with Hillary had Obama done the same. Or with Edwards, or Kucinich. Doesn't matter to me who it was. What matters is what they did.


How will you handle it if he gets the nom when the GOP hate machine attacks him. Apparently I won't have to, Hillary already took care of McCains best commercial. "Even the Democrats think I'm a better choice then Obama" (roll clip of Hillary)

[damonm]

74. Try research before you spout your ignorance before the world...

What important pcs of legislation has he passed? What committees has he sat on and deliberated on that have such a bearing on the election and the current Zeitgeist of politics? He's done nothing, has a blase voting record intentionally so he could run for the white house.

From Wikipedia:
109th Congress -

"Partnering first with Sen. Dick Lugar (R-IN), and then with Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK), Obama successfully introduced two initiatives bearing his name. "Lugar-Obama" expands the Nunn-Lugar cooperative threat reduction concept to conventional weapons, including shoulder-fired missiles and anti-personnel mines.<61> The "Coburn-Obama Transparency Act" provides for the web site USAspending.gov, managed by the Office of Management and Budget. The site lists all organizations receiving Federal funds from 2007 onward and provides breakdowns by the agency allocating the funds, the dollar amount given, and the purpose of the grant or contract.<62>"

Also:

"As a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Obama made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. In August 2005, he traveled to Russia, Ukraine, and Azerbaijan. The trip focused on strategies to control the world's supply of conventional weapons, biological weapons, and weapons of mass destruction as a first defense against potential terrorist attacks.<64> Following meetings with U.S. military in Kuwait and Iraq in January 2006, Obama visited Jordan, Israel, and the Palestinian territories. At a meeting with Palestinian students two weeks before Hamas won the legislative election, Obama warned that "the U.S. will never recognize winning Hamas candidates unless the group renounces its fundamental mission to eliminate Israel."<65> He left for his third official trip in August 2006, traveling to South Africa, Kenya, Djibouti, Ethiopia and Chad. In a nationally televised speech at the University of Nairobi, he spoke forcefully on the influence of ethnic rivalries and corruption in Kenya.<66> The speech touched off a public debate among rival leaders, some formally challenging Obama's remarks as unfair and improper, others defending his positions.<67>"

110th Congress -

"In the first month of the newly Democratic-controlled 110th Congress, Obama worked with Russ Feingold (D–WI) to eliminate gifts of travel on corporate jets by lobbyists to members of Congress and require disclosure of bundled campaign contributions under the "Honest Leadership and Open Government Act", which was signed into law in September 2007.<68> He joined Chuck Schumer (D-NY) in sponsoring S. 453, a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections, including fraudulent flyers and automated phone calls, as witnessed in the 2006 midterm elections.<69> Obama's energy initiatives scored pluses and minuses with environmentalists, who welcomed his sponsorship with John McCain (R-AZ) of a climate change bill to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by two-thirds by 2050, but were skeptical of his support for a bill promoting liquefied coal production.<70> Obama also introduced the "Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007", a bill to cap troop levels in Iraq, begin phased redeployment, and remove all combat brigades from Iraq before April 2008.<71>

Later in 2007, Obama sponsored with Kit Bond (R-MO) an amendment to the 2008 Defense Authorization Act adding safeguards for personality disorder military discharges, and calling for a review by the Government Accountability Office following reports that the procedure had been used inappropriately to reduce government costs.<72> He sponsored the "Iran Sanctions Enabling Act" supporting divestment of state pension funds from Iran's oil and gas industry,<73> and joined Chuck Hagel (R-NE) in introducing legislation to reduce risks of nuclear terrorism.<74> A provision from the Obama-Hagel bill was passed by Congress in December 2007 as an amendment to the State-Foreign Operations appropriations bill.<74> Obama also sponsored a Senate amendment to the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) to provide one year of job protection for family members caring for soldiers with combat-related injuries.<75> After passing both houses of Congress with bipartisan majorities, SCHIP was vetoed by President Bush in early October 2007, a move Obama said "shows a callousness of priorities that is offensive to the ideals we hold as Americans."<76>"

You're welcome for the education.

[americanstranger]

47. Bravo, walldude.

I was an Edwards supporter and I don't have great enthusiasm for either candidate at this point, but Clinton has pushed it too far.

Whether you hate Reagan or not (and make no mistake, I loathed the old bastard), he did have one thing right - his '11th Commandment.' The one that said you don't harm a member of your own party.

How people fail to grasp that Hillary's campaign rhetoric is not poison to the Democratic (big-D) Party and the democratic (small-D) process is beyond me.

Too many people are willing to write it off as 'just politics' if you ask me.

- as

[Omega3]

49. reagan never said anything negative about a republican he was campaingning against? Bullshit

BHO has taken shots at HC in the debates, on the stump, etc. why is everyone so blind to that?

[americanstranger]

55. You're right, he probably did say negative things about his opponents.

But I'll give you a hundred bucks if you can find one instance of Reagan telling people that a Democrat would be a better choice than a Republican.

And don't even start with 'she never said that.' I'm sick of people taking an obvious qualitative comparison and trying to make it not a qualitative comparison. Thanks in advance for observing my 'no-parse' zone. :D

- as

[Omega3]

59. she never said he was the better choice, only more experienced, how long has he been in the Senate?

I'm sick of ppl taking an obvious truthful qualitative comparison and blowing it WAY out of proportion to gain some political advantage on a message board.

[americanstranger]

82. Then stop doing that!

No, seriously.

Let's boil this down.

Hillary said 'I have this thing. It is a good thing.'

She then said 'Senator McCain also has this thing, which is a good thing.'

She then closed by saying 'Senator Obama does not have this good thing that myself and and the guy that Obama will face in the general election both have. He is obviously not as good by definition as myself or the guy that he'll probably face in the General election.'

Under bus, thrown. How can you not see that?

BTW - I knew you wouldn't be able to leave the McCain thing alone. You guys are nothing if not 100% predictable.

- as

[Laelth]

107. I agree.

Way too many people just dismiss Hillary's comment as par for the course. It's not, and to say otherwise is either delusion, denial, or deception. Given how badly Republicans want Hillary to be the nominee, I usually suspect deception.

:dem:

-Laelth

[MagickMuffin]

50. I voted for Obama in Texas, because of Hillary's division of our party

As a white 50 yo woman, I could not vote for her. I originally supported Edwards, he left the race, so I tried to keep an open mind and researched their plans for the future.

Both their plans are very similar.

However, after Hillary started her SMEAR tactics, I could no longer endorse her candidacy. She doesn't represent the Democratic party, only her ambitions.

Her making fun with the skies will open up, her 3 AM fear mongering, her statements of only she or McLameBrain are only qualified to be president, plus a number of other missteps.

I don't think she IS qualified to be president.

Plus I don't believe she will hold the Bush MisAdministration's accountable just as her husband did. Swept all under the Oval Office rug. Out of sight, Out of mind.

She is just as calculating as the current administration.

NO thanks.

[Omega3]

57. smear tactics? welcome to politics. you probably thought John Kerry should've stayed above the fray

when he was being Swiftboated.

the dems need to get tough and start winning a few elections.

[walldude]

58. So you consider "getting tough" throwing the party under the bus?

You know what? If Obama had said the same thing the Hillary supporters would be doing the exact same thing I am.

[Omega3]

61. no I wouldn't , b/c he couldn't have said that b/c he's the least experienced canidate left

[walldude]

76. You know what? You have no argument, you have yet to

reasonably defend what she said. All you have used to defend what she said is attack her opponent. Please feel free to contact me when you have a suitable defense for endorsing a republican. Maybe you ought to call Joe Lieberman, I'm sure he can helkp you out with that.


Peace-

[Omega3]

79. Joe Lieberman? the Same Joe Lieberman Obama campaingned for?

as for defending what she said , here's the rundown in terms of experience

1. John McCain
2. Hillary Clinton
3. Barack Obama

now more than ever experience counts, (see GWBUSH) she's run on the theme she's more experieicned than BO and was hitting that point.

[walldude]

85. LIke I said you have no argument with the exception that

it's ok to throw the whole party under the bus. Good luck with that.

Oh and I searched Google and DU and the only link I can find to Obama endorsing Lieberman is yours.

[Omega3]

93. yeah I just made that up, (sarcasm) how much do you really know about Obama?

nobody is throwing anybody under a bus

[Starbucks Anarchist]

94. Obama has more legislative experience than Hillary.

[MagickMuffin]

62. John Kerry WAS being smeared by rethuglicons, NOT by his opponents within his party

Nice try.

[Omega3]

65. canidates say negative things about each other in primaries, get over it, are you oblivious to the

fact that he's said negative things about her as well?

[walldude]

69. Both candidates have run negative campaigns, thats politics

but in the end the party is what needs to get into office, not the candidate. In a different time and place, I might feel different, but this is probably the most important election in the last 100 years and to fuck up the Democrats chances by giving the Republicans ammunition to use if your opponent beats you is contrary to helping the party.

[Omega3]

77. if the republicon contest was still on and closer it'd be the same thing, they'd be attacking one

another, it's unfortuante that the race is still on but that's life, there's nothing you can do about it.

[walldude]

87. If the Republican contest was still on you can bet that

you wouldn't see McCain supporting Hillary or Obama over Huckabee or Romney or vice-versa.

[akbacchus_BC]

114. You hit the nail right on the head, it is not about ethnicity ...

It is about the person who can unite the nation. Doesn't matter if we are white, brown, black or whatever. We can see the writing on the all, Senator Obama is trying to unify America, I give him kudos for even trying. Experienced that once in my native Guyana, the guy got assassinated, anybody remembers Walter Rodney? And then my President allowed Jim Jones to enter and look at that massacre.

[Scurrilous]

78. K & R

:thumbsup:

[chill_wind]

80. And while we're at it- I am not an "UPSCALE" Democrat - OR a "DOWNSCALE" Democrat" (Grrr)

and not a "Latte Drinking" any more than a "Beer Drinking" Democrat, nor
any of those other obnoxious Corporate MSM language inventions we've seen being run into the ground these days.

"Upscale"? "Downscale"? Give me a break-- I'm an American voter concerned with a whole complexity of American living and voting issues, not a god-damn freakin *retail shop* in a shopping mall somewhere!

And most of all, I mightily resent the notion that me and my vote should't count in any overall perception if I don't live in one of Hillary's handful of *Important* states.

[Omega3]

81. is Utah important? how about Idaho? Kansas? Alabama? Georgia? South Carolina? North Dakota? Nebraska

[chill_wind]

99. Oh, you must mean AL ,AK ,CO, CT, DE, GA, HI, ID, IL, IA, KS, LA, ME, MD, MN, MO.

NE, NV, ND, SC, UT, VA, VT, WA, WI-- all those trivial states Hillary doesn't think she needs?

But hey, those unimportant 25 to her 14, plus Obama's 600,000+ more votes and 150 more pledged delegates...... don't count, as long as Hillary won big media "Perception" points in Ohio.... replete with confetti. I hope she enjoyed it- the confetti. It might be her last
phony spectacle of it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4921883#4922377

::sarcasm::

[question everything]

83. And I am not a Hillary "bot." (nt)

[walldude]

86. Good for you, never said you were

never made a single disparaging remark about her or her supporters which I was one of up till a couple days ago. Your point?

[LittleClarkie]

89. I prefer "minion" myself

Cheers.

[seabeyond]

90. i was willing to vote for her too. not a big fan of either. came in here monday

for the first time and saw the rove/bushco/swift boat tactics she was using and got disgusted. wont vote for another bush/rove. and i have worked ass off and lots of money for over 8 years to get a dem out. i have never threatened to not vote dem. i find the good in all dems...... but she and her supporters are too much like bushco and the repugs that walked blind and denied, and lived in non truth. i will not honor continuing that reality

[walldude]

105. Thanks, and while I will still vote for her if I have to

I'm not going to enjoy it as much as I would have had she fought with a little more dignity and a little less desperation.

[Seabiscuit]

96. I prefer

"Obamanoid".

It's so.. well.. "resistance is futile" Borgian.

[OzarkDem]

100. Clinton is absolutely correct

if Obama wants to get down in the gutter and use negative GOP style tactics, he should be prepared to be called out on it.

[walldude]

104. Clinton is correct? You mean in throwing the party under the bus?

She very clearly insinuated that if she loses McCain is the better candidate. Sorry, after waiting all this time to have my candidate chosen for me, I had to go ahead and back the candidate that will put the party and the American people first. I find it hard to believe if Obama had said something like this that the Hillary supporters would just "let it go". Matter of fact when Lieberman threw his weight behind McCain DU was united in it's stand against him. Funny how it's Ok for her though.

[ShaWee]

108. OBAMATON is the coolest term I've heard no matter how wrong it is.

"I want to win. McCain wants to win. Obama wants to help the American people."

[walldude]

112. Ouch.. nice shot.. and Welcome to DU

[ShaWee]

130. And thank you

[akbacchus_BC]

115. Senator Obama really does want to address the disparity in the US...

and welcome to DU

[ShaWee]

129. Why thank you.

[casus belli]

116. Right on! Good for you. n/t

[GeorgeGist]

122. I heard it was one of Hillary's aides.

Nonetheless it's laughable, because Ken Starr nailed the Clintons' with Monica's blew dress, not Hillary's tax returns.

[GOTV]

123. Is that different than a Regular Democrat? n/t

[smiley_glad_hands]

124. I have been a reluctant Obama supporter up until this past week.

HRC has shown she will do anything to get elected.

[ginnyinWI]

125. I don't think you are alone.

Lots of people will be disgusted with her and go to Obama's side.

A tough campaign brings out the worst in people, candidates, staff and supporters alike. HRC's desperate actions should be a wake-up call to all people who believe in decency, fairness and democratic principles over merely "winning". After seven long years of Machiavellian rule, I would think we'd have had enough.