Aha...Dean says FL and MI would not negotiate with the DNC...took it public instead.

Here is an 8 minute interview he gave on NPR today. I knew how they treated the DNC and Dean early on in the process, but apparently the two states made this latest public move while refusing to deal with the DNC. That is a low blow and disrespectful.

It is getting very obvious now that FL and MI leaders do not recognize the DNC as the authority. May I post The Nation article which points that out?

The Dean Legacy



There is no transcript of the interview with NPR, and it is abou 8 minutes long. Near the end he says the two states took it public while refusing to have discussions with the DNC.

NPR: Dean weighs in on the primary

This has been the pattern all along. Ignore and laugh at the DNC, and do what they want to do. Then later blame him for the fiasco.

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Here is the DNC's final offer today.

Thanks for posting

look to the people responsible and give them hell. this is at least the second time that dean has compromised trying to get the people their vote.

they close their ears and go na na na I can't hear you.

Could not possibly be that people feel like we should all have the right to vote? I don't support either candidate at this point, so give up your silly notion that this is only about which cult leader you prefer. I hate primary time here. It brings out the worst in people. It exposes that many of us have no real values, only value getting what we want.

That pretty much sums up what is wrong with the country in general. We have become a bunch of selfish narcissists that have no core values other than instant gratification.

Here I thought that was just a Repuke thing? You learn something everyday I guess.

...when the few i talk to tonight yell about their vote being disenfranchised, please look to the people responsible...

And the people responsible AIN'T the DNC. Dean is not the villian, the people who changed dates are. And the candidates are not the real victims, the voters are.

This is nothing less than a coup attempt on the progressive end the of the Dem party. I wouldn't be surprised if there was DLC involvement.


rocknation

then it is not the progressive end of the party - that is where Dean is - it is a coup attempt by the dlc faction - read The Nation article - the only reason the dlc/Clinton campaign were not able to cut Dean out is because she was losing(which never figured into their campaign plan) and ran out of money.

The dlc is the pnac of the Democratic Party - not to be trusted.

staged by the dlc, amongst others.

the DLC notably left him out of "their" group of suitable candidates. Yep.
Almost same party.

The permissible candidates were showcased on their web site. Howard Dean was not there. He was never mentioned.

Just happens to be the flip side, as you say, the pnac bunch.

Please try to remember that this early vote was put up by the rethug controlled Fla legislature. If the Dems had refused, they would not have been able to vote on a property tax issue. This stuff is not all black or white. I'm not saying they were right, but there is reason to believe there was rethug s behind it.

I have tried too hard and written too much to have people try to blame the Republicans. Florida was in on it all the way.

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

on how this came about. will look into your links. thanks.

I have read every thing you wrote about the debacle and I have now made a madfloridian folder on my favorites. Your work has been outstanding.

and I believed her. Seems there's more to this that she chose to leave out. My respect for her is diminshing, like a slow bleeding wound. I'm disappointed because I really liked her.

tried to amend it which the GOP legislature vetoed and so Dems had no choice but to pass the bill as was, since they had fought for a papertrail since 2000. It's unfortunate that a Dem initially introduced the bill to move the primary date but like I explained the whole thing got snagged up into the games of the GOP.

that lie to rest.

as on the way home Randi Rhodes was going on about how it was (only) the R lege's fault, and the DNC was picking on the Florida D's through no fault of their own.

my party affiliation by end of year on 2007. I voted against the property tax amendment, so technically the earlier date of the caucus didn't lock the doors on the voting booths, so it should not have prevented anyone(Dem, Repug, Indy) from voting pro or con on the tax issue. The "beauty contest" was a separate issue entirely.

Be that as it may, the tax law fooled a lot of people and it was in fact a give-away for the rich developers and their Repugs who control the political apparatus in Florida these days.

The state's economy is souring already and it's predicted to go further south as we approach the summertime. I'd be surprised if the tax rebate does much to turn the tide of red numbers back back into black again.

I supported Hillary when she ran for Senator of NY but I don't like any war mongering, I don't know how she is gonna straighten up her act and portray herself as the peace candidate now, maybe with a mighty big magic wand and with Obama on her side, but otherwise I'm not voting for a battle-axe in the White House this year.

for over a year. They all worked together on it.

her position on the war (which you rightly should), and use a crappy sexist phrase toward a woman at the same time (which you should not, know that, but picked the most careful phrase to make sure you did anyway). Very clever.

however note that is in the past tense. She did not need to vote for IWR for political ambition. It didn't win her any hugh leads against Obama and in fact, I would argue that her stance wrt IWR cost her a large winning margin in the Dem caucus. A miscalulation? Or did she really believe the "yellow cake" propaganda, ect.

Note that a new war may be brewing in South America, and Columbia is an instigator in spreading the "uranium dirty bomb" lies, against the FARC, but it's the same old story. Will she buy into this crap again? Does 1 million dead civilians in Iraq count for anything in the vote for the POTUS? I think it should.

Neither of the three candidates is going to end the occupation. Basically McCain will keep troops as they are. The Dems will most do a gradual redeployment of the troops to surrounding allied nations and fill the security vacuum with blackwater mercenaries. Neither is a good option, but politicians can hide the true cost of war by using private contractors and that is most likely what they will do to respond to a hostile public.

and that would still make Obama as the one who has at least been more public about supporting a peace initiative. Maybe he won't, but at least he is making a statement in that respect.

choice but to pass it since they've been fighting for a papertrail since 2000. MadFL should tell the whole truth!

That is pretty rotten. Governor Granholm was part of this media stunt.

They are going around the DNC to get attention. They got it.

I have a couple of questions...

What did the Fl (and/or MI) Democratic party have to gain from this?

Has it resulted in any kind of concessions or benefits from the Florida GOP?

Why do they seem to have it in for Dean so much? The whole thing almost seems designed to spite him.

Is it or could it be a proxy struggle between DLC and DNC interests? If so, what would the benefits for the DLC be and how might they have figured on it turning out in the GE?

You really don't like my posts, do you. Why not put me on ignore and you will feel better.

NT!

tried to amend the GOP vetoed and so Dems had no choice but to go along in order to pass the paperballot bill since they had fought for papertrail since 2000. Madfl hasn't included that fact!

Paper trail was just a cunning way to spin it.

NT!

Much better these things are worked out behind closed doors by our masters. God forbid the public actually have an interest in people's right to vote.

I feel like I am reading Free Republic in 2000.

Thanks (yet once again) madfloridian.

You can't choose not to have or recognize elections in Multiple States. What is the DNC leadership smoking!? This is not a game. There is nothing more fundimental than assuring free and fair elections. They need to get off of their butts and fix the problem that they created. Any strategic gain that anyone thought might have been gained from this has been completely overshadowed by the problems that it has caused. Just fix it!

creating the problems.

took a measured response. They took away some of the delegates, not all. They have had no problem with FL R voters. The DNC went heavy handed and disenfranchised ALL the D voters in two states. I sure would not like to have been raised by a parent who did not know how to be measured in their punishment. DNC's rules were totally heavy handed and now they are facing the backlash.

so it was not ignorance on the part of these two states. dnc gave options to the two states and they refused them. the two states broke the rule well aware of the repercussion. now they are dealing with the repercussion at the expense of the voters. dnc again tries to work with the two states and they refuse.

NOT dnc.

to blame them because they didnt let yawl break the rule and back down is so indicative of our whining woe is me victim society we are become.

be mad

but be mad at the right people

nothing worse than to blame someone who is NOT responsible. you look beyond foolish and certain accomplishes NOTHING>

and the republicans made their own decision.

the parent that never stands by their rule has children that push it further and further and further until it is out of control. any issue in my home that is important, there is NO leeway. and there is no battle over it because of consistency. and peace reigns. if you really want to put the voters of these two states in the category of children being disciplined.

I really don't like the idea of one party rule. The government, our elected officials make the laws, not the parties. That sounds like some sort of dictatorship. Let people vote and be heard, period. My loyalty is to my fellow citizens, not Howard Dean. Voting is far too important to be fucked with like this.

Regardless of what state legislatures decided the DNC chose to "punish" citizens in one of the most offensive ways possible. It was a huge mistake and we will regret it. Most likely all hell will break loose if those states would make the difference, and if I was in one of those states I would give the finger to the party come GE time. Hell I am in NY and I am so offended I may have lost the motivation to support anybody in this sham of a dog and pony show. I vote my conscience and what has been done to my fellow citizens by my party in FL and MI is unconscionable.

and I think the only reason anyone went along with the DNC barring of FLA delegates is that noone thought it would matter.

But, as Murphy's law would have it... now it DOES matter. And a remedy had better be short in coming, because Crist and the MSM are making the DNC look like fools to the entire country.

I feel sorry for Howard dean. I really do. But..... he needs to figure a way out of this.

The ongoing race between Hillary and Barack will not be a problem for us... unless the Repubs can paint it that there were "back room dealings" and "disenfranchisement." Then we'll be doomed.

we clearly know they were willing to throw floridians under the bus to get dean and we are allowing it. that is what we are.

dean is offering something and they turn backs and we blame dean

voters didnt vote knowing it wouldnt count, now we say surprise it counts, and those people shouldnt be outraged? or are they expendable?

the public perception is what matters.

I hope the DNC can figure out a way to stop the RNC from painting the dems as evil disenfranchisers.

As I said, I feel very sorry for Howard Dean.

but i hear ya

And double damn!

Can someone please offer a tourniquet to stem the bleeding?

Dean is not going to remain silent forever. The NPR interview was only a start.

I will find it hard to vote for her now, I don't even like to see her face on TV.

That's sad.

The DNC is doing that all by themselves, they need no help in this area.

The DNC is NOT the government. They do not have the right to take people's votes away,, no matter how stupid/self destructive the head of the DNC is.

.

NT!

Dean took away my vote for the actions of others. In a civilized country, that would be illegal. I should personally have to do something wrong to be personally penalized.

Even the Republicans couldn't bring themselves to disenfranchise their voters completely.

The DNC apparently doesn't have the scruples of the Republicans. That should give anyone pause for thought.

and your people dont try to resolve. how can you seriously immediately and consistently point finger at dean. i really am so surprised people can see a rule, break a rule, know the repercussion, then.... surprised when they have to pay it for breaking rule, ... but even at that, dean try to help our, was refused HIS helping hand and still you go after him. odd

The DNC was NOT required to disenfranchise FL and MI voters. That's just sloppy thinking and completely untrue.

There is no justification to the DNC's reaction. I'm so damn tired of the "hey they broke the rules" chanters. Disenfranchising millions of Dems is a pretty huge penalty for a paltry rule violation, like the death penalty for stealing bread.

It's like the death penalty for us, because our grandfather stole bread.

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"Punishment shouldn't be so punitive."

You just don't want to face that fact.

links madfloridian PROVIDED you. Then come back and post something that actually makes sense and follows the thread.

I am totally exhausted by this willful ignorance by Democratic Florida voters. Madfloridian has done a stellar job in keeping up w/ this story AND keeping us all informed. I know more because of her diligence and have followed her postings w/ every development. And I don't even live in Florida!

there is no longer a way to get the truth out.

if you can not fight for it.

great info!

.

he beats those odds.

Freaking giant lump of Republican slime asshole. So glad I don't live there anymore.

Peace

in trying to disenfranchise your own state.

or do you just throw out random comments attacking people without fact

to make sure the Florida delegates don't get seated. She considers it an affront to the honor of St. Howard of Burlington.

Let me see...

Mr. X can rob a 7-11, then take the clerk in the back room and rape her, be convicted of multiple felonies, serve his time, have his rights restored, register as a Republican and have his primary vote for president count...

I'm a law abiding citizen and my vote in Florida for the nominee of my party won't count because I am a registered Democrat...

All the candidates did.

Don't feel disenfranchised, feel represented.

Last I checked the Republicans have the State House and veto proof majorities in both the Senate and House... And I didn't vote for any of them...

Anyway punishing me for something somebody else did is as morally justified as me being beating my neighbor's ass because his adult son stole my lawn mower...

Oh, so you were cool when thousands of Florida voters were disenfranchised in Palm Beach County in 00...After all the Supervisor Of Elections was a Democrat and she approved the flawed butterfly ballot...I also believe Dade and Broward had Democratic Supervisor Of Elections as well...

Right

if she and her minions continue to push for this issue and lie.

The voters of Florida didn't do a damn thing to deserve being disenfranchised...

The only difference between that and the Israeli Defense Force blowing up a house because a terrorist once lives there is the scope...

No to collective punishment...That's not how we roll in America...

It is the DLC Hillary folks who are refusing to see the truth.

She is running a scorched earth campaign.

The problem is nobody wants to pay for it...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

of us had nothing to do with his getting elected. Righteous indignation does no good when the whole ship is sinking.

But the way she is doing it will drive many people away.

What happens when people cut in front of you in line? You tell them to get back in line. Now what if they refuse to return to line? What your saying is they should be allowed to cut in front of you. Then the next election we should allow every state to do the same.

Clinton doesn't get to cheat. Sorry.

Because... no matter what he says now, the MSM is running with this idea that "the dems say every vote counts, but they aren't counting FLA & MI." Crist said it this morning. It is being played over and over.....

Bad for us dems.

Very bad.

They won't accept a chance to do it over under party rules. They just stamp their feet and send out surrogates to spin.

is a surrogate for who???

That doesn't make sense.

They worked together with Nelson and others to bypass the DNC and get this public to hurt Dean as chairman.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

as a Clinton surrogate. Do you?

Granholm I don't know much about.

But I think we have to be careful about where we place blame.

Crist is working with Granholm to undermine Dean and help keep Hillary in the race so McCain can coast a while without too much scrutiny.

Don't lecture me about placing blame when the wife of a former president is asking for do-overs so she can win.

and, BTW, I also see nothing "neutral" about your bloggery over this scandal.

I post the truth as I see it. And right now the truth as I see it and as I have seen it for a long time.....is that Fl and MI are acting like fools for a reason. I can't prove the reason, but I have done enough research to know that it only benefits Clinton and no one else.

Florida Dems worked with the GOP on purpose.

between the two parties in your state... it is really a stretch to call Crist a Clinton surrogate.

The Clintons get slammed with this kind of sh** all the time. It is just not necessary. They have dedicated their whole lives to the Dem party. And some of us here actually like them.

to benefit McCain.

I had no problems with Hillary until she demanded FL delegates count.

Now I can not look at her on TV. If a problem is there now that wasn't there before....then it is her. not me.

he is not a "surrogate" for Ms. Clinton.

That is the language I was objecting to.

Florida's delegates should be seated. They should re-do their primary (or not) depending on the decision of the DNC in collaboration with state level authorities. This is a democracy and people are entitled to vote.

Howard Dean is being made to look like a fool in front of the whole of the nation. This, more than the lengthy primary, is what will hurt is in the end. Why?

1) The Republicans are, quite rightly, pointing out via the MSM that the party for democracy casually disregards democracy.
2) There will be no end to the accusations that we, as dems, abhor "state rights"... after this is over. It won't play well to the general public.

Heck, it's not playing well to me... and I have been a dem for 32 years.

And the Clintons are part of that segment. McCauliffe has taken every opportunity to criticize Dean publicly (going back years now), and it's disgusting.

I just don't like the strong arming of the party, by certain party elders who are pushing him into the position he's in. They are allowing crossover republicans and independents to steal *our* election for us, and set our agenda.

your posting articles from talking heads. You could take this article and switch it with Obama's name and it would still be a gossip column. Unless you have a prudent and factual article I will take this as a grain of salt.

the last two years of actions by Clinton loyalists to undermine Dean at the DNC - just as they undermined Gore's in 2000 and Kerry in 2004, just to hang onto their dominance in a party structure they were using to promote only their own power.

over the past 8 years from Karl Rove from the posts I've been reading.

and have been for decades.

The day Rove points this out and discusses wthat alliance, THEN you can safely make your assertion, but we both know that is NEVER going to happen, don't we? You just regurgitate what SOUNDS good completely uncaring of whether you are making an accurate statement.

What does Rove have to do with Dean's statement on NPR about the refusal of Mi and Fl to discuss the matter before they went to the media?

Distracting from the actual issue is a Rove tactic. Isn't it?

It is going to start being very obvious. All the stuff you have said, that I have said. It may be too late for the party to hold together.

is not interested in facts. The facts would tell them that it will not/should not happen. If they want to know why this happened they can look at their state legislature(their representatives).

Did all of you FL and MI whiners contact your state representatives last year when they changed the date of the primary in spite of the DNC telling them their delegates would not be seated if they did?

Are there any facts supporting the idea of changing the rules in the middle of the primary season?

if I were a Michigan taxpayer I'd expect the Governor to disregard the wishes of the DNC.

Cute.

Very cute.

...that we DID NOT WANT the early primary
if it meant that all of our candidates were
not on the ballot.

The Governor DISREGARDED our wishes.

NH, Iowa, SC, NV did a darn good job of eliminating our choices here in MIchigan , regardless of when the vote was held.

I am so tired of this FL/MI issue. I wish people would read the excellent facts you post, but apparently the dis-information machine is on high again.

I have heard this FL/MI story a couple times already this morning on MSNBC.

It would be an illegitimate win for Hillary.

I am so tired of the lies, and the spin.

DU never used to allow flat out lies to be posted. It really worries me a lot.

It does not speak well for this election to see such stuff going on here and in the media.

I think we will lost in the general.

But I agree that the lies being spread are getting out of control. It is apparent one side has embraced republican "values", and we can see which side that is. Thanks for keeping the Truth out there, mad.

Or else...seat the delegates according to the results of the January 29th primary. ROFLOL!

Somehow I don't think Dean will be impressed with Nelson's appeal for a do over to be paid for by the DNC. I find it outrageously arrogant.

I despise Nelson, and I don't even want to see Hillary's face on TV. It is getting that bad.

Or allowed to be seated? Whoa whoa.

So Dean comes out today saying "A do-over is the best solution," and suggesting that state parties come up with the money to do it.

It's quite beautiful. Now if they bring the delegates he can at least say "I told you to do a do-over."

Whether it will wash is another story.

"Nelson is on MSNBC saying he wrote letter to Dean asking for the DNC to pay the $15M for a do over--"

That is $15 million that won't go to defeating John McCain if Dean for some reason gives in to the pressure.

Tell me again how her staying in a campaign she cannot possibly win is not hurting the party.

turd called the DLC that needs to get flushed.

because it's stopping up the works.

He and I can not even stand to watch her on TV now. To me truth and integrity matter.