Let’s Step Back From The Bullshit Of This Forum And Take A Look At Where We Are

[matcom]

First things first cause some idiot will ask: I am an Obama supporter but will vote Hillary enthusiastically if she is the nominee.

Now for the meat…

Tonight, March 5, 2008 the Dem party is in real trouble.

Obama can’t lose the delegate count. The math says so.

Unless…

Floriduh and Michigan break the rules (yet again) and somehow get their delegates seated. If there is no runoff, Hillary wins. Argue the merits of that scenario in another thread. That isn’t the point of this one.

What happened in Texas and Ohio? Many good dems voted their conscience and I had no doubts the races were going to be tight anyway. What else happened?

The republicans voted. They voted for Hillary. Why? They were told to by every Right Wing radio host in this nation. From Limbaugh to Hannity to my local guy. Hell, my local guy was GUSHING on my ride home this afternoon. He PLEADED with Rhode Island REPUBLICAN voters to get out the vote for HILLARY yesterday. The memo went out this week and the repukes lapped it up. Every RW radio host used the SAME LANGUAGE over the last 2 days to plead their case to their sheeple. They want the Dem Party to destroy itself from the inside and they are succeeding.

Barring that, if Hillary doesn’t get out now (remember, she mathematically CANNOT win currently) she and Obama will throw what, $50-$60 MILLION at each other between now and Pennsylvania? Again, Penn doesn’t matter as currently, HILLARY CANNOT MATHEMATICALLY WIN. What will come out of Pennsylvania will be 2 bloody and battered candidates. Fodder for McCain. Let there be no illusions there.

So, what does it all mean? One thing it means is that WHOEVER GETS THE NOMINATION, IT WILL NOT BE THE VOTERS WHO DECIDE. Last night was the last chance for the VOTERS to decide this race. The party elders WILL be the ones to make YOUR decision.

So, do we stop the bleeding now or let it drag out for 7, 9, 15 weeks? Sensible people will vote to stop the bleeding now. Otherwise, we might end up with a nominee who is too wounded to face McCain in November. Folks it is VERY plausible.

Let’s get something straight. A ‘Dream Ticket’ is next to impossible ESPECIALLY if we have another month or two of fighting. Thought the ‘Kitchen Sink’ strategy was something? Got news for you. You ain’t seen NOTHING yet. From BOTH sides.
LET THE PEOPLE VOTE you say. They can’t anymore. One side will already be ‘disenfranchised’. No stopping that now. You Hillary supporters are going to be MAJORILY pissed off. You Obama supporters are going to be MAJORILY pissed off. You both have your right to be but it won’t last very long if things happen QUICKLY.

So, you agree with the above (or not) and you say, “Matcom, what about the SUPER DELEGATES?”

Ok DU member. YOU are a Super Delegate. IF things stay the same and Hillary cannot win mathematically, do you support her with your vote anyway? DO YOU DENY THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN THE CHANCE FOR THE PRESIDENCY BECAUSE YOU OWE CLINTON A FAVOR?

Can you IMAGINE the backlash?

Ok DU member. YOU are a Super Delegate. IF things stay the same and Hillary cannot win mathematically, do you support Obama with your vote? DO YOU DENY THE FIRST WOMAN (AND A CLINTON) THE CHANCE FOR THE PRESIDENCY BECAUSE OF FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN AFTER MONTHS OF INFIGHTING?

Can you IMAGINE the backlash?

Now, put on your DEM PARTY hat for a minute. Forget that I support Obama (as clearly stated, and forget whomever YOU support right now). Ready?

Ok. Just want to make sure we are ALL thinking here for a moment. Put the PARTY first for just this moment over YOUR candidate. Just for this moment.

What makes the most sense in light of the FACTS right now? Say all of the above stays the same. If your crystal ball showed that 8 weeks from now all that is true today remains true.

Clinton should drop out. Tomorrow.

Now, go ahead and yell. I THINK I have approached this rationally and with thought. Remember, whatever happens *I* am voting for either of them but before you flame (which you will anyway), take one final deep breath, reread my post from the beginning and know that I HOPE we can keep this an INTELLIGENT discussion.

Peace.

[Hardrada]

1. This makes excellent sense. Recommended advice.

[redqueen]

2. Agreed.

*sigh*

Good night. :hi:

[Tatiana]

3. You're absolutely right.

But I really don't think there is any way Hillary will drop out.

This thing goes to the convention, where Obama will win the nomination (because MATHEMATICALLY HE CANNOT LOSE) and the Republicans will have a field day in the general election because we will have done all their work for them.

I've resigned myself to that outcome. The rest of us should, too.

[NC_Nurse]

4. I would agree, but I don't think most Hillary supporters will.

And I'm sure it's easy to agree if you're for Obama. So I guess there's the rub.

[BenDavid]

103. Acouple of questions need to be asked and answers and they

are:Who was it that got us to stop fighting the Bush bastards so we could fight each other? Who gained power by splitting the party and getting Democrats to fight Democrats? My answer unless I am proven wrong was obama and his campaign.....

[Exilednight]

119. I would argue the other way....

Hillary felt she is owed the nomination, but she has to earn it like everyone else.

[Sir Jeffrey]

5. 100% true...

and there is no chance in hell this thread stays rational.

K & R anyway

[americanstranger]

6. Oh, now you've gone and done it.

You posted something that makes sense in here.

Get ready to be vilified by just about everybody.

Good post, tho.

- as

[Kurovski]

7. Gracious self-sacrifice for the greater good?

I suppose miracles could happen.

[Redbear]

8. You dont give any rationale as to why Sen. Clinton should drop out

as opposed to Sen. Obama.

There are many, many Democrats who think Sen. Clinton is the superior candidate in the GE. Ilm not one of them, but to tell them "tough game over" makes no sense to me.

[matcom]

9. I gave EVERY Rationale

the MATH

she cannot win as of today.

reread and get back to me.

[Posteritatis]

12. How so?

Asks the Canadian, baffled by the whole process...

[SoFlaJet]

18. Sorry Matt

makes too much sense-the fight will go on and the ripping to shreds of the democratic party will continue to be justified by all involved-to what purpose I don't know anymore. It almost seems like Hillary Clinton's side won't be happy until McCain is the president in January so they can try again in 2012-sorry but that's the way this Gore then EDWARDS and now Obama supporter sees it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. .

.

[Redbear]

58. I read every well-thought-out word you wrote, but it seemed to me you provided no rationale because

the MATH says we don't have one candidate who can't win mathematically. We have two candidates who can't win mathematically. Neither one will reach 2025 based upon pledged delegates alone.

If we allow the process to play out, someone WILL reach 2025 based upon a combination of pledged delegates and superdelegates. I'm pretty certain who will end up with more pledged delegates. But, who will get 2025 total? I don't know and neither does anyone else.

Short circuiting the rules of the party because we don't like them continues to make no sense to me.

The rules don't say the one with the most delegates after Puerto Rico wins. As much as you and I who voted for Obama might love that to happen, I doubt we would view it the same way if Sen. Clinton had a 140 pledged delegate lead.

I agree it would be great if somebody stepped down, but what criteria do we use?


The candidate more likely to have more pledged delegates should be the nominee? That would be Sen. Obama if FL and MI arent seated. If they are, it could be either candidate.

The candidate who has the support of more Democrats as of today? Gallup says that is Sen. Clinton. Rasmussen says its dead even.

The one who has won the most states? Sen. Obama

The one who Democrats are more likely to vote for in the GE? The Pew Poll says thats Sen. Clinton.

The one who Independents and Republicans are more likely to vote for?That appears to be Sen. Obama.

The one who has received the most votes so far? Sen. Obama

The one whose state wins total the most electoral votes? Sen. Clinton

The one who is more likely to end up with more popular votes? Who knows (especially if you count Florida).

I appreciate the basis of your argument. I simply disagree.

[JAbuchan08]

100. The only way that Hillary can win is with an anti-Democratic strategy

certainly it is within the RULES to rely on Superdelegates to trump the will of the voters, but it is exactly what *I* (and a lot of voters) are upset with the Democratic party for. We elect them to represent us, and then they condescend to us about why they had to vote for war, and why they continue to have to vote for war, or derregulation, or big gift bills to the health-care industry.

I'm sorry, but when I think of Superdelegates I think of the 22 year old college student who graduated to deciding elections without a rat's-ass worth of life experience to guide his decision. I think of the Hillary supporters who's districts went 80% for Obama, but who won't listen to their own constituents because they owe Clinton a favor.

When I think of Hillary's superdelegate strategy I think of yet another in a long series of instances where the Democratic party felt it was more important to fight against their constituents than to fight for them.

[Hieronymus]

69. You did, thanks. Hillary can't win.

[msongs]

10. obama goes around telling everyone dems need repub votes. he got his wish nt

[MichiganVote]

11. Yeah right, like any of that is going to happen....in the GE the Dem's will vote for the nominee

whoever that should be under any circumstances. Why?

Because not even the Democratic party or its nominees is more important than the bullshit of the last years, the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, the money we are spewing out of every financial sector except among the wealthy, the lack of affordable energy, healthcare, education...

People want change...throw whatever bums are in office --- OUT!

[leftstreet]

13. For Party first, the answer would have to be Obama

An HRC win means Dean's 50 state strategy work is flushed down the toilet, because the Repubs would stunningly "gingrich" the Dems in the 2010 midterms.

[smiley_glad_hands]

14. Very well reasoned, and my sentiments also.

She can't win without the rules being broken, we can't have this process drag out any longer.

Please Hilliary, please drop out now.

[Redbear]

59. What rule has she broken if her total of pledged delegates and superdelegates

is greater than 2,025?

[JAbuchan08]

101. It's an undemocratic solution, but it's within the *rules* so it's okay

but didn't Hillary also threaten to break the rules in Florida and Michigan.

How's this, Clinton can rely on undemocratic measures to gain delegates - as long as they are within the rules, and I will continue to think of establishment democrats as being more interested in subverting the will of their voters than facilitating it.

[hogwyld]

15. You make sense, what are you doing here in GDP?

Of course, Hillary has way too much invested over the past 35 years to give up the dream so easily. She knows it's now or never, and she will claw at the prize until the party is destroyed. We will have a McCain presidency if this madness continues.

[Parche]

16. Oh Look There Is TM!!!!

distraction, distraction, distraction
distraction, distraction, distraction
distraction, distraction, distraction
distraction, distraction, distraction

:silly: :crazy: :silly: :crazy:


:hi:

[LisaL]

17. Why doesn't Obama drop out, for the good of the party?

I would be happy with that.

[smiley_glad_hands]

22. He will have and currently has the most delegates.

Hilliary cannot win without the rules being broken.

[Shine]

20. I think everything you say is right on, but I don't think Hillary would drop out

esp given her speech last night. I would think that would be hard to back down from. It's fairly evident she's in it for the long haul, which is unfortunate b/c of what it'll do to the party.

I agree with you, it would be great if she would drop out, given the math, but all of her supporters are going to argue that she has a "right" to take this thing through to it's conclusion.

We can talk about it til the cows come home, but ultimately and obviously the decision is out of our hands.

[blm]

21. Probably one of your most comprehensive posts analyzing the political reality ever.

.

[dionysus]

50. hey, it's Matcom, no surprise

:) he represents old-school DU, and he knows his shit

[bluerum]

23. One of the most level headed posts I have seen in this forum in a while.

Persuasive. The longer this fight goes on, the weaker the winner will be in the general.

I happen to agree, but what about voters in Fla. and Mi? We all had our say.
Clinton Team hints at re-vote

Howard Dean hints that Fla. and Mi. delegates could still be in play by petitioning the credentials committee at the convention. This committee is not governed by the DNC.
Howard Dean weighs in on Clinton-Obama Battle
BTW - the Repuke Fla. governor wants to see their primary count - anything to prolong the bloodletting.

Further stirring of the delegate stew.
The Battle for Florida and Michigan

IMO, if Clinton does NOT broker a truce, it is because she thinks she will be able have those delegates count.

[creeksneakers2]

24. I agree with you that Hillary ought to bow out now

if the math is so against her that she can't win a majority of pledged delegates. A brokered convention that goes against the verdict of the rank and file could be lethal. She lost my vote with the 60 Minutes interview and if she's willing to destroy the Democratic Party I'll hate her.

I disagree with you about the recent Clinton wins coming from Republicans. I listen to right wing propaganda and there are as many people urging Republicans to vote for Obama as there are people urging votes for Hillary. The right wing is having quite the debate over which is the better strategy. I don't think that many Republicans actually voted in the Democratic primaries though, at least in Texas. I didn't dig deep but I've read that in other contests that the Democratic primary turnout exceeded the vote for Kerry in the 2004 general election. I figured that if any wave of GOP crossovers came the vote totals should bulge. I checked some counties in Texas and the vote totals were about equal to what Kerry got in 2004. So I doubt a significant number of Republicans crossed over. I think they just get a kick out of talking shit.

[FogerRox]

81. Maybe 1%

So I doubt a significant number of Republicans crossed over. I think they just get a kick out of talking shit.

[anigbrowl]

25. Minor correction: FL + MI =/= hillary win

Florida gives her a net of 35 delegates (210 total, C: 50%, O:33%).

We can assume Michigan's undecided delegates would go to Obama, since they already had the option to vote for Hillary, giving her a net of about 24 (168 total, C: 55% U; 40%).

Total (give or take a few) 57 delegates.

Just sayin'.

[matcom]

27. "If there is no runoff, Hillary wins. "

no discrepancy

[nancyr]

26. Agreed.

Makes sense to me.

[Armstead]

28. You make an excellent case

I never knew you could be so rational. :)

[Laelth]

29. Of course, you're right.

But what Hillary should do and what she will do may prove to be very different.

I'm spending my mental energy trying to figure out what to do based upon the reality of what I believe Hillary will do. I think she's staying in the race, and we'd better figure out how to win, regardless, with a badly bloodied nominee.

:(

-Laelth

[Fox Mulder]

30. This is the smartest thread I've ever read in the history of GD:P.

You did good, matcom. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. :thumbsup:

[stop the bleeding]

31. But Clinton has won 3 out of the last 17 states, she can't stop now that

she has Obama on the ropes.

This whole deal just tastes like a shit sandwich

[WDIM]

32. While I agree

Lets move on she isn't going to drop out no matter what the rationale. I just hope after all the pledged delegates are decided whoever is ahead (which it will be Obama) the other person (Clinton) bows out and they don't take it to the convention depending on super delegates. Can't we at least agree to that!

[BootinUp]

33. There is a lot of Americans and Super-Delegates

that disagree with your take. eom

[matcom]

35. disagree with the merits of the post

i'm interested

[BootinUp]

37. momentum can probably over-ride actual delegate counts that differ by less

than 2%.

[demo dutch]

34. Get yr facts straight Gop-ers also voted for Obama in droves!!!

Most likely all will return to their base come the GE

[matcom]

36. got a link?

don't think so. I know what I hear.

[Balbus]

47. Here's your link

http://www.suntimes.com/news/elections/826778,limbaugh030508.article

...Exit polls of voters in the two states found most Republicans who crossed over and voted in the Democratic primary voted for Obama...

I guess it's back to the ole' drawing board. Do you have the chalk that comes in the neato colors? Thought so...

[dionysus]

51. matcom's post is spot on, try again...

[donheld]

68. Your link isn't worth a whole lot

I'm sure you can find a number of links to republicans crossed party lines to vote for a Dem. What you cannot find would be a link to prove those people would go on to vote repuglican in November. I'm persuaded there are a great number of repugicans who are fed up with war, a disastrous economy among other things that will have them considering a Democrat in November too.

[knixphan]

38. matcom's argument is sound

I heard an interview that predicted that the PARTY ELDERS will enforce a 'no-fighting' rule on Barack and Hillary for the remainder.... That they'd only be able to throw sinks at McStraight, and if one of them did hit the other, the supers would automatically name the opponent the nominee...tough love.

[Sir Jeffrey]

43. If they're going to do this...

why not just throw support behind Obama now and end this shit tonight? Why waste all the time, energy, and money dragging it out?

[tnlefty]

44. Was this what David Bender was discussing on Rachel Maddow's

show? I missed the 'rules' discussion, but I did hear her reasons for wanting to unify the party prior to her taking calls about a unity ticket.

[walldude]

39. Thanks Matcom.. K&R

Too bad rational thought isn't part and parcel to the current election. If you ask me we need to get rid of the Electoral College, the Delegates, and the Super-Delegates, and go back to being a Democracy, one person, one vote, most votes wins.

[in_cog_ni_to]

40. Bull. Mr. Hope can't win it either. HE should drop out. n/t

[matcom]

41. you are an idiot and can contribute NOTHING to this thread?

point. set. match.

:eyes:

[JVS]

79. Why the question mark?

[dionysus]

yeah, the guy leading should drop out........ are you out of your mind?

[SKKY]

42. The Democratic Party is, and should be, first and foremost....

...It's the only party that will defeat the Republican party in November. We need to fix what we need to fix and move forward. If that means HRC dropping out in the face of mathematical inevitability? So be it.

[FlyingSquirrel]

45. I am not convinced that she could win mathematically even with MI and FL.

She would have to do 5-6% better in all remaining states than she has done so far, just to make it a tie with MI and FL (they only give her an extra 56 delegates).

The superdelegates would have to overturn the popular delegate vote, period. Plus she would have won by being the only one on the ballot in MI.

Nice democratic party that would be.

[TransitJohn]

46. Thanks matcom

From a Kucinich-->Edwards-->Clinton supporter, I really wish she would just bow out in the morning, preferably with a joint appearance/release from both campaigns saying we have a united Obama/Clinton ticket. Then get to work getting our collective Party ducks in a row, and go about kicking some McLame ass.

[Olney Blue]

77. Wow. I have had similar thoughts. It would be amazing if Barack and Hillary

worked out a deal, decided that they truly liked and respected each other, and then became a united machine to crush McCain.

[FogerRox]

87. Unfortunatly HIllary doesnt bring much as a VP, Like a Webb might.

[Kurovski]

48. Kick. (nt)

[Window]

49. ..

[bigtree]

52. naw

not going to happen.

Keep doing math. We'll be campaigning.

[matcom]

53. dare to clarify?

what are you talking about?

[robbedvoter]

54. The "GOP voted for Hillary" chestnut - not supported by exit polls numbers

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4889383&mesg_id=4889383
Clinton wins among Democrats in OH and TX . Republicans choose Obama (exit poll)

Republicans and Independents chose Obama, As per CNN exit polls.

Hillary won among Dems. by approx. 7% in TX and OH, and Republicans chose Obama by a 7% in Texas and 10% margin in Ohio.

[AZ Criminal JD]

55. Like most Obama supporters you only do the "math" on one side.

Obama can't win it mathematically either. Both sides need the superdelegates to win. But of course the math doesn't count for Leader Obama.

[matcom]

56. you didn't read. like usual

try it. Reading is FUNDAMENTAL

[AZ Criminal JD]

57. I read it

It said "HILLARY CANNOT MATHEMATICALLY WIN." No where does it say OBAMA CANNOT MATHEMATICALLY WIN. Reading is fundamental. I agree. Now you try it.

[FogerRox]

91. SO you are saying there are enough super delegates for HIllary to win ?

Its was over super Tuesday, Hillary supporters need time to grieve, we should respect that.

[AZ Criminal JD]

107. Yes. With the delegates she is going to win in the remaining primaries

She can win with the Super delegates. Just like Obama. I don't grieve for politicians. I'm not a cultist.

[RememberWellstone]

60. Obama said Rethugs

Liked him better than Hill...whats the deal? He said he has been able to cause Rethugs to vote for him. Where are they? I could care less what the right jackboots do from now on, they have stolen 2 elections and Hillary will stop the third. Obama is nothing but a row of shiny teeth and a good speech. We need a fighter and someone who knows how to beat the Rethugs. Period.

[tnlefty]

61. Did you happen to hear the first part of Rachel Maddow's show?

I missed David Bender and the 'rules' about the elders, but what she mentioned later has been bugging me for a while. Simply that the media who already fawns over McLame will have even more time to do so while our candidates are sniping at each other and not McLame, hence the thought of the party elders and super delegates stepping in to slap either one who throws barbs at the other and not McLame.

She mentioned a unity ticket with Obama and Clinton and then the phone calls about what people were thinking about that and who should be at the top of the ticket. The first few callers didn't seem to favor the idea as they didn't think that the 2 could work/campaign well together after this primary. I don't know whether they could or not, but for the sake of the party maybe they should just suck it up and make it work. In fairness, since Obama is leading I think that he should be at the top of the ticket, but I'm not so sure that Sen. Clinton would accept the VP slot.

I do NOT want the super delegates deciding who the nominee is as I think it would be incredibly damaging to the party.

I find it hard to believe that the 2 candidates who were always at the bottom of my list are now causing me so much angst, lol. My spouse is absolutely livid that Sen. Clinton hasn't dropped out already.

[Redbear]

63. I love this sentence!

"I find it hard to believe that the 2 candidates who were always at the bottom of my list are now causing me so much angst, lol."

Of course, the superdelegates WILL decide who wins no matter what. Neither candidate can win without superdelegates.

[tnlefty]

67. I should have been more clear:

If the super delegates select for the nominee the person who isn't leading in the popular vote and the delegate counts from the primaries and caucuses (sp?) I think it will be incredibly damaging to the party. In other words, why even bother going through the process of holding the damned things and voting? If the 2 left standing are just going to rip each other apart while the media is fawning over McLame...also spells a disastrous situation to me.

I heard Brent Budowsky earlier mentioning that Sen. Obama is gearing up to hit back hard and so it will go with our candidates swiping at each other while McLame goes untouched for the most part.:crazy:

It does blow my mind on a regular that the 2 at the bottom of my list are left standing and causing me so much angst, but I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to add the 'lol'.

[NashVegas]

96. Let's Be Specific About What You're All Asking

At this time, Obama has the delegate lead, while Hillary has the popular vote lead.

What this means for the SDs is a total toss-up.

The Obama supporters here and offline are asking and in some cases, demanding, that Hillary step aside even though her odds are just as good as Obama's at this time.

You all are demanding she essentially relinquish a viable candidacy and step aside in favor of the Obama campaign.

Party unity, my ass.

[tnlefty]

115. I'm not clear about how what I wrote prompted a "party unity

my ass" response.

[NashVegas]

118. Publicly Demanding a Candidate That Is Equally Viable

Step aside for another is not the way to encourage party unity.

Better?

[tnlefty]

121. I'm not publicly demanding anything.

Can't believe that you took it that way. BTW, the idea that McLame has more time to regroup and be fawned over by the media was discussed again today, but no one was publicly demanding anything. Actually, more like what are the consequences of his getting a free pass because neither of our candidates is focusing on him much.

That discussion is not a taboo topic for me.

[rug]

62. Makes even less sense now than when it was said Monday.

[RiverStone]

64. K&R - with all due respect to Hillary supporters - this is the only way

...that is BEST for our party and chances to win the GE.

[Kukesa]

65. Kick! n/t

[Beausoir]

66. Blah..blah...blah. CLINTON NEEDS TO QUIT!...blah...blah...blah.

That pretty much sums it up.

How about this, Matcom? How about we let everyone VOTE? How about that?

After reading over your posts from the past several days, you make it CLEAR that you will NOT "enthusiastically" vote for Clinton.

I read your post. And read it again. And no, I don't have a comprehension problem.

You can't stand Hillary Clinton. You've stated it over and over again.

That's your right.

[matcom]

71. what part of "the votors no longer can select the nominee" do you not understand?

voters will NOT select the candidate. it is now impossible.

[FogerRox]

84. I will vote, organize & work for Hillary, if she is the nominee

but she's a long shot, very long shot this year.

[amborin]

70. twist and spin all you wish, Hillary won big ,and she won 3 states

her Ohio win was b/c Ohio DEMOCRATS preferred her

but, hey....if she did get some republican votes.....and that bothers you....once again the hypocrisy of obama supporters is staggering....you all have been BOASTING about republicans voting for Obama in the primaries....but when they vote for Hillary, it's bad...insane!!!!!!!!!

[matcom]

72. post a link where I have boasted. I dare you

and by my last count the score is 12-3

3. :eyes:

[Spider Jerusalem]

73. Won approximately...seven to thirteen total delegates, with the gap remaining at almost 150...

not a big win. She needs sixty-two percent of all the remaining delegates to take the lead. It is NOT likely to happen. For Tuesday to have been a big win, she'd have needed to get much larger margins. And she didn't 'win' Texas, either; not where it matters (total delegates awarded....Obama's going to get more).

The twisting and spinning is coming from the Clinton side, I'm afraid; numbers don't lie.

[ps1074]

74. well put

But shew won't quit UNLESS say 100 or 150 or whatever number needed uncommited super delegates meet with her behind close doors and tell her that they are ready to endorse Obama and even if she wins from now till the end with 60-40 he will still be the nominee.

Give her a chance to save face and leave the door open for another run or fight till the end and get humiliated at the comvention.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

75. Great post and I agree with the reasoning behind it. But I see the endgame

as this.

If we continue to limp along with essentially a dead heat, nothing will be gained and much will be lost. We could have continued if the campaign had not turned so negative. We went from having "2 GREAT candidates" to a holding a "Scratch and Dent" sale - both will be fatally flawed for the GE in short order if we continue down this path.

Both candidates cannot win with delegate count alone, so like it or not, it will come down to the super delgates. I think that the party elders should give Obama and Hillary one week to rally together their super delegate total. At that point, it will be clear who the ultimate victor will INEVITABLY be. At that point, whoever the loser is, should acknowledge that fact and drop out for the good of the party, and the nation as a whole and then we should unite and back the remaining candidate with our united strength and will and clean house from this horrific Republican administration.

(Side note - the last time I posted I said that in light of her McCain comments, I could never vote for Hillary Clinton. I said that in the heat of passion and I regret and take back those remarks. As usual, I would have no choice BUT to vote for the Democratic candidate whoever it may be)

[Timbuk3]

76. FL and MI should re-vote

That only makes sense with at least 2 candidates on the ticket.

It's not without it's flaws, but there are only 2 other options that I see:

Don't seat FL and MI's delegates. Not good, come general election time.

Seat them as already chosen. Not good, because it's easy to say that vote was tainted by the rules.

Thinking as a Democrat, I'd hate to go into the general election with FL and MI convinced that we don't care what they think, and the only way we can find out what they think is let them vote for the two remaining candidates knowing their delegates will be seated.

We can talk another day about how badly broken the primary system is. For now, just acknowledge it's broken. (I say, let IA and NH vote LAST next time.)

[JVS]

78. You deserve a Fresca.

GREAT POST

:thumbsup:

[Owl]

80. K&R

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

82. This is an OUTRAGEOUS USE OF LOGIC!

[Hutzpa]

89. There is always one,

you seemed bent in the Democratic party destroying itself.

tickle me silly, what is in the OP's post that you don't agree

with? that warrants an obscenely outburst from you?

:shrug:

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

95. I was being sarcastic, spokane. "outrageous" and "logic" don't go together.

usually I'm so amazingly funny it's more obvious.

[Hutzpa]

98. Ok, thanks for clarity eom

[truebrit71]

83. Excellent post Matcom...nicely done.

All that remains now is for someone to tell Hillary's ego that she should do what's right for the party and the country for a change, and we'll be alright...

If not...she will be reviled for YEARS in the party...with or without the nomination...

[FogerRox]

85. Hillary supporters need time to grieve, its like losing a family member

[arundhatiroyfan]

86. kick

:kick:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. Since Hillary Has A Good Shot At Getting The Nom, And In My Opinion Would Be A Better President,

I see no reason whatsoever for her to bow out. I'm glad she's fighting, and hope she continues to kick some more butt.

[joshcryer]

92. Agreed. And it'd actually take 1.4 million *more* votes for her to *tie* in pledged delegates!

It's an uphill battle all the fucking way, the system is framed against her.

[joshcryer]

90. Your post is full of bullshit, reflecting the same anti-democratic sentiment that *formed* DU to...

...begin with. What a repuslsive blather of text if I've ever seen one. My God. From such a respected member as yourself, too. I bet I get flamed for this.

[matcom]

104. thank you for your intelligent rebuttal to the facts in my thread

:eyes:

[Hutzpa]

93. Once again a level headed

thinker prevails.

wonderful analogy, thanks for reaching out to the confused souls.

Excellent post!

BRAVO :thumbsup:

[madfloridian]

94. And say thanks to Howard Dean for holding firm....

Just in case you thought a party chair did not matter.

He is starting to speak out now. Says they bypassed the DNC.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1888

What if Terry were chair? Say hi to Hillary's FL delegates.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1882

[ozone_man]

97. Your premise is incorrect.

Clinton can win.

The way I count the delegates, she will be behind about 130 pledged delegates by the convention. If FL and MI have new primaries as it looks likely at this point, that will shrink Obama's lead by 50 delegates or so to about 80. This is not a large lead and 800+ superdelegates can easily erase that lead, depending on which way they break.

Clinton would be foolish to quit now.

Here is a good opinion piece for why neither should drop out. It's good for the Party, since it generates lot's of excitement.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/03/06/democratic_primaries/index.html?source=newsletter

I understand why you might want Clinton to drop out, being an Obama supporter, but from a Clinton perspective, it would make no sense.

[madfloridian]

99. Clinton will not quit. Even if it hurts the party.

.

[ozone_man]

114. Running a fair primary is healthy for the Party.

I think so far, the moral high ground goes to Obama. If the only way Clinton can win is by using desperate tactics, then I agree that she should bow out. And I prefer that Obama not follow her into the mud.

But he can't be swift boated either. He has to respond in measure. Always using his Zen control, like David Carradine in Kung Fu. :)

[Laurab]

102. K&R n/t

[live love laugh]

105. Ed Schultz told listeners today they voted for Hillary because of the "3AM call"...

:wtf:

[matcom]

106. the "3AM call" ran in ONE state

yet CNN and MSNBC played it FOR FREE about 100 times.

Ed is full of bullshit yet again.

[ulysses]

108. I think you're probably correct.

I also think there's no way in hell she drops out. Honestly? I'm beginning to think we're going to need a third party just to have someplace to go after we completely flame out.

[sofa king]

109. Hey, I got an idea!

Unfortunately, what we have here is one candidate leading the total delegate race by a mere plurality. The other candidate comes from a now-established family tradition of never giving up, and surfing the controversy to victory. We have conventions for just such a reason.

So how about a deal? I think the chances are that if you locked the two of them alone in a room together for twenty minutes, they'd come out both smoking cigarettes and announcing this: from now until the convention, they will run as a team, agreeing to minimize attacks on each other while continuing to reach the people with their own respective personal charms. Then, when the convention comes around, they'll play the cards they have, and whoever wins will request that the convention select the other candidate as the vice-presidential candidate.

And, they'll both want divorces. 'Cause they were locked in that room, see....

By convention time, the two campaigns would have combined resources and collaborated on coverage so that after the convention, they can hit the ground running. There's no campaign finance irregularity because the two are still running against each other, just not tearing each other up while doing it.

All the way up to convention day, the two are running a parallel campaign against John McCain and his current and permanent running mate, George Fucking W. Bush.

And we, the people, finally win.

What's wrong with that idea? Besides the fact that smoking causes cancer, that is.

[THUNDER HANDS]

110. is your buttcrack smilie on speed, he seems to be walking a lot faster than i remember

[matcom]

111. crack on speed.... speed on crack...

what's the diff? :P

[THUNDER HANDS]

112. the hippo seems to be drunk, though

he can barely slap anymore. the buttcrack is doing a whole lap before he can even get a slap in.

[matcom]

113. the hippo is on the evil weed

he THINKS he is slappin' ass at the speed of light!

[althecat]

116. I agree....

[Apollo11]

117. More registered Dems voted for Hillary than for Obama

The only reason Obama is ahead in the delegate count is because he has attracted votes from unaffiliated voters and registered Republicans - starting in Iowa - all the way thru to March 4th.

Is it in the best interests of the Democratic Party to let Republicans choose our nominee?

Is it in the best interests of the Democratic Party to ignore the wishes of folks in Florida and Michigan?

I hope that the Superdelegates will take all these factors into consideration.

Most of the Superdelegates are elected officials who know what it takes to win an election.

Peace B-)

[NDambi]

120. It's amazing..as I was flipping channels last night, I landed on

Bill O'Reilly and he was talking about the Blogs and how liberals are ripping each other apart and tearing each other to shreds! I mean, you actually have republicans reporting on places like this and other liberal spots and all the mean,nasty, vile attacks against each other.


It's simply amazing...that at this juncture, Democrats are at this juncture!