let's be democratic: Hillary leads the popular vote: Clinton ==13,574,463

[amborin]

Obama== 13,533,300 Clinton ==13,574,463


by any true democratic standards, Hillary should get the nomination

voters have spoken, and more voters selected Hillary

what are "pledged" delegates?

they are delegates who are unfairly awarded....by an arbitrary process....some states it is (primary) 'winner take all'

other states, the delegates are divided up among the candidates

"pledged" delegates are not a democratic way to decide anything

[anonymous171]

1. link(s)?

[papau]

41. Clinton 13,521,832 to Obama 13,497,175 is the official count

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/obama_still_has_popular_vote_l.php

[ingac70]

43. Obama was not on the ballot in MI...

so no way is that race going to factor in at the convention.

[ingac70]

2. She does not lead the national popular vote. n/t

[democrattotheend]

3. Over 24 million people have voted so far in the Dem primaries

Where are you getting your numbers from?

[amborin]

8. omg: i admit it: i goofed, was looking at Ohio

i admit my mistake

how's that?

but my point remains: whoever wins the total pop vote should get the nomination

what do you all think?

[Mass]

15. So, she should withdraw, as including Florida where the 2 candidates were running, Obama is ahead/

[IsItJustMe]

69. LOL. Thats bad dude.

[Dawgs]

4. MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA DON'T COUNT!!!!

[pbca]

6. Not unless they decide to do it all again n/t

[democrattotheend]

5. No states are winner take all for Democrats

Democratic Party rules ban the use of winner take all primaries. Republicans use winner take all in many states, but no Democratic primaries are winner-take-all.

[C_U_L8R]

7. Sorry it doesn't work that way.

you get delegates... you win. Stop trying to change the rules.

[LSparkle]

9. Her margins of victory in the large states weren't that big

Meaning he also picked up millions of votes in California, New Jersey, etc. ...

[DUyellow]

10. huh? check your numbers

[Mass]

11. Your numbers are way off.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/obama_still_has_popular_vote_l.php

DNC-Sanctioned Contests
Obama 12,920,961
Clinton 12,322,695

Including Florida
Obama 13,497,175
Clinton 13,193,681

Including Florida And Michigan
Clinton 13,521,832
Obama 13,497,175


It takes MI, where Obama did not get ANY votes, for her to get the popular vote. Even with Florida alone, he has the popular vote.

[Independent-Voter]

12. Holy shit - what a dumbass post. Math must be sexist today.

[Obamaniac]

68. Independent-voter...

That was so funny.

"Math must be sexist today."

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

13. Your numbers are completely wrong

Or are you saying the outcome of one state should decide the entire primary? Get a clue.

[amborin]

17. typical nasty obama supporter? name calling, spewing, as usual

i admit: i was looking at Ohio

i take responsibility for my mistake

i goofed

but my point remains: pop vote is a good basis for the nom

[redqueen]

21. "typical nasty obama supporter?"

*sigh*

[lapfog_1]

23. Good... if you believe that than you ARE supporting Obama

because he is still ahead in the popular vote... and will be come convention...

And, despite the Charlie Crist meddling today, the FL and MI votes will not count (unless there is a do over).

And, oh yeah, there are NO winner take all contests in the Democratic Primaries... you must be thinking of Republican primaries.

[mmonk]

14. Wow. Not many democrats out there voting considering all

those states so far.;-) Sorry, couldn't resist.

[blm]

16. Be an HONEST Democrat - no real Democrat protects BushInc and closed government

Clintons protect Bushes. They always have and always will.

http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

I wonder why so many who call themselves Democrats want to see the protection of the Bushes continued into the next decade.

[amborin]

18. but wait: obama wants to cozy up to rethugs

[tridim]

20. No, he wants republican crossover voters.

Huge difference there.

[amborin]

31. no, he said he wants to get along with rethugs===appeasement

[damonm]

50. With that attitude, YOU are part of the problem...

You're just a Bushie from the other side of the fence. If you ilk ever attain power, you'll be every bit as big a disaster.

We achieve when we work TOGETHER. When we treat the other side as the enemy, we've lost, and so have they. Sit down and let the grownups run things.

[tridim]

53. Thank you.

The Bush regime has really messed up our system. People have forgotten that the President isn't supposed to be just his/her party's President.

[VolcanoJen]

57. And that's what I like to call....

... a most excellent post.

:thumbsup: damonm :thumbsup:

[blm]

59. Clinton covering up for BushInc throughout the 90s = Complicit.

Deal with it.

[GihrenZabi]

22. Popular vote?

Since when does that mean anything? Tell Gore he should have won due to the popular vote.

There's a reason why we don't use a straight popular vote system in the United States - it disenfranchises certain constituencies.

[blm]

24. To CHANGE them,not to protect BushInc criminality like Clintons did in the 90s.

But wait - underinformed voters don't know that Bush2, 9-11, and this Iraq war should NEVER have been possible.

http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

Do they?

They don't know that Bill recently banked twenty million dollars from the very same Dubai royals he protected on BCCI and who he advocated for on the ports deal so many Americans were against.

Do they?

[amborin]

28. tally is here

Popular Vote Count

State Date % Vote In Obama Clinton

Popular Vote Total Obama - - 12,957,086 12,375,168

Popular Vote (w/FL) Clinton - - 13,533,300 13,246,154

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)* - - Obama== 13,533,300 Clinton ==13,574,463

[JTFrog]

35. Please educate yourself. It appears you are posting things at whim.

Obama wants transparent government. He has a detailed plan (pdf, need adobe reader) available that shows his dedication to net neutrality and public access to information.

Clinton on the other hand, not so much.

http://obama.3cdn.net/780e0e91ccb6cdbf6e_6udymvin7.pdf

Barack Obama’s comprehensive technology and innovation plan will:

• Ensure the full and free exchange of information among Americans through an open Internet and
diverse media outlets.
• Create a transparent and connected democracy.
• Encourage the deployment of a modern communications infrastructure.
• Employ technology and innovation to solve our nation’s most pressing problems, including reducing
the costs of health care, encouraging the development of new clean energy sources, and improving
public safety.
• Improve America’s competitiveness.

=============================================================================


http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2369

Today, Obama is throwing down the gauntlet on internet freedom, telecom lobbyists, and on opening up government in general to the public. It's some genuinely radical stuff, and it includes the use of blogs, wikis, and openness in government hearings.

----

And then of course there is spectrum and net neutrality. Both Edwards and Obama have made it clear they will break the power of the wireless gatekeepers, the telecom lobbyists who gut our laws, and the Comcast traffic shaping tyrants. Clinton, though, has been a noted absence in the debate about spectrum, mumbling about it incoherently at Yearlykos, and her plan for broadband was written by the telcos and doesn't include net neutrality. She still hasn't come out clearly on retroactive immunity, as her campaign's ties to telecom lobbyists are not trivial, and it looks from her possible FCC choices that her administration would be a continuation of the Clinton-Bush years of media and telecom deregulation.

[Cha]

62. You're being disingenous..how

do expect to win anything that way?

[cali]

19. LOL!!! Invest in a dictionary, dear

and consider a course in logic. Guess there's not jackshit that can done about your little honesty problem.

The process is not arbitrary. It's anything but. You may not like it, but that's a problem for another year. There are NO winner take all states in the dem primary.

And you posted no links.

Learn the difference between fact and asshole opinions.

[bunnies]

25. What the hell kind of crazy-assed magic math is this?! nt

[lukasahero]

26. It'll be interesting to watch this thread

and compare it to threads regarding Gore winning the election based on the popular vote. (Regardless of what the actual numbers are, it'll still be telling to see the reactions.)

FTR, I voted for Obama in my primary but I'm sick of the bullshit I'm seeing here about Ms. Clinton.

[amborin]

34. so what is your view?

does it seem fair to base the nomination on the popular tally?

and, okay, we won't demand delegates from Florida and Michigan

but shouldn't those voters' popular votes be included in a final popular vote tally?

[lukasahero]

64. Take a deep breath

I know you've gotten beaten up here but if you read a little into my post, you'd see that I'm on the side of 1 person, 1 vote.

I've just been around here long enough to know that most of the people screaming at you about the value of delegates and the system were on the other side of the argument in 2000. Call me a cynic but this place slays me, really.

[madfloridian]

27. Another lie posted. Here is the link to the vote count

Obama leads except when MI and Fl are BOTH added and Crist just came out to support Hillary on this.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[amborin]

30. Hillary is ahead: realclearpolitics.com

[madfloridian]

37. How do you get away with telling stuff like that.

That is a shame.

[amborin]

32. Hillary leads in the popular vote....do you want to deny Fl and Mi voters?

[NMMatt]

29. Here's a novel idea

Whoever wins the most delegates wins. How's that for simplicity?

[featherman]

33. Obama leads in the popular vote by any measure

12,920,961 to 12,322,695 without FL and MI

With FL only, Obama still leads

For those that insist on including BOTH the invalid FL and MI totals, please remember that Obama was not on the ballot in MI.
So count the "unClinton" votes in that one for Obama and he still leads.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/obama_still_has_popular_vote_l.php

[amborin]

36. so Florida voters' votes are invalid? tell that to Florida

[Capn Sunshine]

42. Tell that to the assholes running the party in Fla

They knew the rules.

Why be afraid of an actual contest? Let's have one in Florida. Plenty of time.

[featherman]

48. Yes, it was not an approved primary as far as delegate selection

Voters voted and I counted those in the second section of my post.

However,I am getting a little tired of the lack of understanding about the Democratic Party. I'm a member of the Democratic Party. Political parties are political organiations that are organized and validated by their rules and bylaws. These are legal standards without which a political party is not a political party but just a bunch of individuals. Here in the real world state Democratic Party organizations must adhere to the party rules if they wish to remain sanctioned by the national party.

Here in California, my local county Central Committee has approved procedures for electing members to the Central Committee. If these rules are not followed to the letter, the election is not valid.

This is what happened in MI and FL. The rules were not followed so the results as a valid delegation selection election were not sanctioned by the Democratic Party.

Politics 101.

[Hepburn]

The Dem Party officials already did.....

....try and keep up, OK?

[Hepburn]

61. Delete...dupe post!

[Zynx]

65. Let all the states vote before making a final statement.

[MojoMojoMojo]

38. I support whomever wins the popular vote of REGISTERED DEMOCRATS

We dopnt need Republicans or Republican Indys choosing the candidate.

[Capn Sunshine]

40. so, voters who are motivated to come out and vote for a candidate don't count?

Wanna give back Texas then?

[Bluerthanblue]

46. not if Hillary has her way- even reg. Dems who voted against her won't count

ask her man Ickky-

He said as much on NPR today-

The votes DO NOT MATTER-

:shrug:

[totodeinhere]

45. The problem is we won't know who got the most votes from registered Dems.

Many states that have open primaries don't break down their results between Democrats, Independents and Republicans. They just report the total votes each candidate got. So therefore we won't know for sure who got more votes among registered Democrats.

[amborin]

56. hmmm, that is a problem

[Viking12]

51. So Wisconsin doesn't count? We don't register a party affiliation here

[ISUGRADIA]

60. Change state laws then

a lot of states do not have party registration

[LSK]

39. YOU HAVE TO FUCKING LIE TO JUSTIFY YOUR POINT

OBAMA WASNT ON THE BALLOT IN MICHIGAN.

[Bluerthanblue]

44. welcome to a preview of life in America under Queen Hillary

:sarcasm:

[amborin]

55. Obama chose not to be on that ballot

[ISUGRADIA]

63. as did every other candidate except Clinton and Kucinich

[Hepburn]

66. Because is was NOT ethical to be on it....

...so he withdrew his name. Duh.......:eyes:

[Mass]

47. It takes Michigan to reach that goal and Michigan was a soviet election with one candidate on the

ballot.

In elections where the 2 candidates were competing, Obama is ahead.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4910846&mesg_id=4910952

[amborin]

54. Obama chose not to be on the Michigan ballot

wise?

[Mass]

70. He followed the rules. The Clintons do not think the rules apply to them. Too bad for them. but

the party should not reward them for that.

[madfloridian]

49. If I just made stuff up...

I would not be here long.

[karynnj]

52. As some states have caucuses it penalizes them

- not to mention - you counted Michigan, where Obama was not even on the ballot.

[Hepburn]

58. Since Obama is ahead in the NATIONAL popular vote...

I totally agree with your concept that the leader in the popular vote should get the nomination.

How about changing the title of your thread to reflect the NATIONAL numbers and not just the OHIO numbers and that Obama should get the nomination? Or does your position change now that you realize you fucked up and by your concept it is Obama and not Hillary that would be the nominee? Should we all point fingers at you and say, "Situational ethics?"

Just curious.......

[amborin]

67. Clinton ahead in national popular vote if you include Florida

[democrattotheend]

71. No he's not

Only if you include Florida AND Michigan and don't give him the uncommitted votes from Michigan.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

72. Democratic? You're counting a 328,000 Soviet-style "landslide" where Obama was

not on the ballot (Michigan), as well as a name-recognition contest with no campaigning in Florida. What proportion of Floridians may have thought they were voting for BILL Clinton, we'll never know. That's the only way Hillary could hope to net 38 delegates and 288,000 popular votes out of Florida.

See the spreadsheet at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4918049 . Claiming these 616,000 alleged popular votes in fraudulent unauthorized contests in MI and FL is the only way Hillary can hope to overcome Obama's hard-won margin in LEGITIMATE, DEMOCRATIC primaries and caucuses this year.