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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:00 AM
Original message
Obama Should Step Down
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 11:58 AM by wienerdoggie
Don't get mad at me, fellow Obamites. I say this with a heavy heart, a sick stomach, but clear vision. Last night's results show that the lowest common denominator will kill him in the crunch. He couldn't pull it out, not even after all the previous wins, after all the money raised and spent, after rallies and excitement unprecendented in modern politics, after speeches that inspired a demoralized nation, after very solid debate performances and with a well-run, well-organized campaign working for him--what does this say? It says he hit a wall, and that wall will be even higher in November.

Hillary has proven that even the flimsiest of charges, even the merest suggestion of dishonesty or corruption or laziness, even the slightest intimation that Obama might be a Muslim or has unpatriotic motives, will stick to him like glue and subvert his message. For all the Hillary supporters who want to crow that this proves that "he can't take a punch"--perhaps that's true. He is an honorable and decent man, his "dirt" is a bucket-full compared to the Clintons' dump truck of sleaze--and you know it in your gut, for all your jubilation over the essential nothingness of Rezko and NAFTA-Gate. But people expect sleaze from the Clintons, it's a comfortingly familiar feature of their political and personal lives, so they're inoculated from it--Obama, however, is ripe for the tarnishing. The Clinton team, and the GOP, will continue joyfully sliming him, and no amount of denial, deflection, or rapid response on his part will change the negative impact of that. He could run an absolutely flawless campaign from here on out, and do everything exactly right, but there's a sick and twisted impulse out there to watch him get taken down (and some "Democrats" on DU have even expressed their hope that the GOP tears him apart). He's been portrayed in the media as too good to be true, a "messiah", a cult leader, a saint, and now the American people are primed to be suspicious, to believe the worst and turn viciously on him, just as rapidly as they seemed willing to embrace him. And if Hillary's mud-slinging was clearly helped along by a complicit--even eager--media (it certainly was, especially in the last week), then that media complicity will only get worse when St. John McCain and the GOP ramps up its attacks.

Obama will not win Pennsylvania. I grew up there, my family still lives there, and the results will be similar to Ohio, no matter what the polls say. It's too elderly a population, too subtly racist, and too resistant to change. That's a Rust Belt reality. The next 7 weeks will be a waste of time and money, for Obama, for Hillary, and for the party, and then he'll lose. The superdelegates will drift away from him after that, and then the game is over. I hope I am wrong, but that's the way I see it playing out.

Better for him and for the party to end it soon, graciously, and on a high note. That pains me deeply to say, and yes, I know he leads in pledged delegates--but Hillary exposed his multiple weaknesses: his PERCEIVED lack of experience, his short time on the national stage, his race, the suspicion around his religious affiliation, and his suggested lack of patriotism will ultimately doom him. People certainly seem to like him as a public figure, they'll listen to him, they'll be inspired by him--but they will scurry to the old white guy who's been around forever and served in the military come November, no matter what the polls say, no matter how much voters say they want a change. Had the results been different last night, I would have been very optimistic that he would defeat McCain, but the kitchen sink strategy worked in crucial states. That proved to me that our most basic fears and instincts, our craving for familiarity and the status quo, will always defeat our better angels and higher ideals in the end.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Alter Ego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for doing exactly what Hillary Clinton's campaign
wants you to do.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. No offense but....wow, you fold easily
:o

Buck up skip!
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
102. when he wins the next three or four, what then? Considering he won
my state, hell central for idiots, shows me the opposite.

RV in alaska
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. Fuck that.
He's going to win NC. We have lots of delegates and already a ground game for him here.
I'm upset about last night too, but I'm not giving up. :patriot:
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. He's not giving up; why are you? - - - >
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03...

What Experience? Obama To Agressively Engage Hillary's Claim To Foreign Policy Readiness
By Greg Sargent - March 5, 2008, 11:37AM


Speaking to reporters on his campaign plane, Obama makes it very clear that he will be taking on Hillary's claim to superior foreign policy experience and readiness a good deal more aggressively in the weeks ahead:

Over the coming weeks we will join her in that argument. Was she negotiating treaties? Was she handling crisis? The answer is no.

Separately, the Associated Press reports that the Obama camp is planning to hit her harder on multiple other fronts, too:

A senior Obama adviser, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Obama's team will respond to Tuesday's results by going negative on Clinton -- raising questions about her tax records and the source of donations to the Clinton presidential library, among skeletons in the Clintons' past.

That's according to an anonymous adviser, so take it for what it's worth. Judging from his quote, it seems pretty clear that Obama's idea for the way forward -- direct engagement with Hillary on her core argument -- is the sounder course.

Late Update: Ben Smith has some good quotes from senior Obama adviser David Axelrod mapping out what's ahead.

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Again, I hope I am wrong--but the exit polls proved that the late-breakers
always seem to favor Hillary, no matter how close the polls are--that's a huge red flag for me. There seems to be a gut instinct to turn away from Obama, and I am afraid of that in a general election. I will watch what happens in the next couple weeks, but I am trying to be realistic.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. I am also looking at the states she is winning...
and I don't trust the states he has won, I think there was a little crossover. I thought it should be over by now but I think that Hillary needs to stay in because I don't think we have seen enough of how the Obama will react if he is continuously attacked, which will be done by the CONS..
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MollieBradford Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
77. what did you think of him walking
out of that news availability the other day? I thought it showed he couldn't stand up to tough questions by himself.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. That bothers me too
But before last night, that seemed to have lessened. He won the late deciders in Wisconsin and Virginia, though by smaller margins than he won other voters.

I expected him to do poorly among late deciders yesterday...it was obvious that over the weekend something had changed in the direction of the race.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. And the exit polls were wrong. They showed OH and RI close.
The results we saw here were exactly what was predicted two weeks ago. Unfortunately, the only error the Obama campaign did was to behave like a frontrunner. It allowed the Clinton campaign to show this as an upset.

Hopefully, they will continue to say that PA is a hard state, as it is.
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MollieBradford Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
76. you are right
he can not close the deal for whatever reason and that is a problem in the GE.

You know I find it really unfair that people talked him in to running this time around. They have really used him in a way and I think his instinct was that he was not ready but then he was blinded by some fast talkers like Axelrod, who really is the scum of the earth when it comes to political hacks.
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CitizenLeft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
97. I don't know how to say this without offending somebody...
...so I'm just going to say it.

As an Ohioan, I'm not a bit surprised he lost Ohio bigger than he lost TX. There's a reason why the demographic so loyal to Hillary Clinton - those making less than x-amount of dollars, and those with less than x-college education - didn't go for Obama. There was a very quiet statistic in there that was mentioned by Nora O'Donnell last night that went by without comment: 1 in 5 of this demographic admitted that RACE played a part in their decision, and 80% of that group voted for Clinton. Hello. Is this surprising? Some pundit mentioned Parma, OH the other night... this is a suburb of Cleveland that she was supposed to win handily. Let's just say this: the Wikipedia entry for Parma includes this paragraph:

"1. Such major newspapers as The New York Times covered allegations from the 1970s onwards that Parma's government worked to resist racial integration. Former Parma City Council President Kenneth Kuczma famously said, "I do not want Negroes in the city of Parma," and even federal courts ruled on the matter.<11> In Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism, James W. Loewen recounts these problems and thereby labels Parma a "sundown town."<12>"

As recently as the 1980's, a black woman was murdered there for buying a small house- they burned the house down with her in it. She was the first black person to move there, and she refused to leave, even after the burning crosses and the graffiti and the threats to her life. There's no doubt that there are many residents - most residents, I'd wager - who'd like to erase that image and would welcome a better reputation for their city, but the fact of the matter is, undercurrents of racism in lower-middle class white neighborhoods all over Ohio are not so... "under." There's a Parma in every pocket of OH, where people still blame their own problems on those who they think get "everything." You know them. They're there, and OH has more than it's share of them.

However, having said that, in my heart I believe that there are many more people like those in VT and WI and IA who could offset that racism, just enough for me to say DON'T QUIT YET.

But I understand the sentiment. That part of America that is ugly and won't go away IS depressing.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #97
131. As a native Ohioan, I (sadly) agree with your assessment.
A lot of people think that racism is a problem entirely of the south. In fact, white supremacist groups have always been a powerful force in states that include Ohio, Indiana, and others in the north.

In the south, the white racist vote was offset this year by a highly motivated black vote that is very excited about Obama. Except in urban areas, there aren't that many black voters in Ohio, Indiana, and other racist hot spots of the country.

This does not mean that Obama can't win. It means that we still have the terrible problem of racism. Personally, I would love to see Obama be elected. Most extreme racists will vote Republican in the general election anyway. Wait. They hate McCain too. Boohoo for them. I hope they all stay home.
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CitizenLeft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #131
135. so true.
And I wish it didn't have to be just a large African-American electorate to offset it, but that's what was necessary in Ohio. Except for the urban areas, where there ARE whites who would and do vote for Obama, there's that vast hardcore Alabama in between - just like they say of PA - made up of people EXACTLY like that guy on 60 Minutes who really wanted to vote for Obama, but feared he is a Muslim. Very sad. That's what's worrisome about PA. It's precisely these "blue collar Democrats" - which are, truly, "REAGAN Democrats" - that shift Ohio back and forth between being blue and red. They make Ohio "purple."

And, as you say, many of these same people voted for BUSH anyway.

STILL... don't give up yet!

:hi:
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. I don't want him to step down, but I'm having a hard time arguing with you
You make a lot of good points. I want Obama to be president so much but last night made me wonder if it can happen. I don't think he should step down now, but if he loses Pennsylvania by a big margin, you may be right. At that point, Clinton would have a hard time winning the general anyway, and maybe in 4 years he can come back with more experience as a senator and get the nomination and have a better shot in the general, at which point McCain will be 76.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
7. good one
had me going there
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. Not while he is still ahead
..
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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. Give in to racism.
That's a really uplifting theme. You know, ultimately I could give a damn about winning the GE if it means giving in to sexism or racism in politics. Pardon my french, but fuck that. The lowest common denominator does not decide our way forward.
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. but you're forgetting
that this isn't just about Obama. What about the millions of people who have supported him and have been moved to get involved in the party, in politics and so on? I respectfully disagree with you. Those folks deserve to see this thing through. I think he will go on fighting for them first and then for himself.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
12. Say it with me: he's WINNING
And there's no way he won't still be WINNING when the convention rolls around.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. It's not a function of him winning against Hillary--it's a matter of
what I foresee happening against the GOP in November. If the SD's stay with him and make him the nominee, AND he wins PA, I'll take it all back and admit I'm wrong, with great joy. But I think the SD's are going to weigh yesterday's results, and all of the factors that went into them: the Muslim card, the patriotism card, the mud that stuck, the money he spent on ads--they are looking at this very carefully, and I'm guessing that they will hedge their bets and head for Hillary as the safer bet in November.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. Your concern is noted.
:eyes:
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MollieBradford Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
78. yes
that is their job and I hope the take it seriously.

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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
113. Hear this, super-delegates. If Obama goes to the convention with
the lead in the popular vote (which he currently has) and with a lead in pledged delegates (which he currently has), and you super-delegates throw the nomination to HilBilly, I will forever renounce any interest in the Democratic Party. I will no longer work for its candidates (have worked as a volunteer in every prez election since 1984, save 1996) nor will I donate any money to them. I know I speak for many of my colleagues in the Los Angeles anti-war movement who plan to leave the Dem Party for good if HilBilly is able to thwart the will of the popular vote.
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scoobiedavis Donating Member (196 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
13. The simple facts:
1)If the nomination is awarded to the candidate trailing in the popular vote and pledged delegates, the nomination will not only be worthless but the nominee will be radioactive for the rest of the party in the general election.

2)Hillary doesn't inspire people. Obama does.

3) If you want to alienate the young voters who are becoming involved in politics, then have the superdelegates overrule the pledged delegates.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
14. I agree, it's just not in the cards.(eom)
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
108. yep, it's in the votes. (eom)
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Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. That would be rediculous. He's going to end up on the ticket.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
16. Bite me.
What part of he's winning don't you understand?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
17. That's just frickin laughable. (nt)
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
19. I live in Pennsylvania and he CAN win here!
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 11:14 AM by Kristi1696
Are you working the grassroots in this state? No. So don't belittle the efforts of those who are. There are an astounding number of volunteers working their asses of here.

But, even if what you say is right, your logic is flawed because you assume that Hillary would win against the McCain, which SHE WILL NOT. So, if Obama is as weak as you say he is, then the end result is that the Democrats will lose no matter what. Given that, which "loser" would you prefer to represent the Democratic party?
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Fuck this noise.
I'm going out to register voters.

Catch you all in a month.
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Fox Mulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
20. Geez. He's still ahead in delegate count.
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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Hello! nt
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
24. Wiener, you suck. Give us back your avatar!
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. LOL! I was off DU all day yesterday, mulling all of this over. I had
a bad feeling, and it came true. I am, and will always be, a proud Obama supporter, but there is no doubt that there is a setback today, and alarm bells might be ringing in the party that must be addressed, no matter what the delegate math is. It doesn't change my view of Obama as a potentially great President, better than Hillary and certainly McCain, but it does change my view of his likelihood to get there--through no fault of his own. I hate to see the party go through convulsions as the GOP sits back and laughs. I hate it.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. To be honest, I checked DU early on Tuesday from a little
village in Austria, then went skiing. Had a bad vibe all day. Called my mom at 4AM for the news. :(

This still does not mean it is over. But I agree it is bad for all concerned. I want this done. I am sick of it all, and sick of DU.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. I think the urge for this to be over is a common sentiment--I was so hopeful
up until the day after last week's debate. I watched the media coverage of the race turn really, really strange and pro-Clinton. They ran her 3 am ad relentlessly for free, they discussed it, they showed her SNL clip, they showed all of her attacks and her rallies--and they didn't show Obama hardly at all, except in a very negative light. RW talk radio has been HAMMERING him for weeks now, clearly threatened, and I do believe the Muslim thing was ultimately a killer. The tide turned against him, and I don't know yet what impact it will have, but it shows to me that his message and his appeal couldn't overcome that sort of negative press, at least for this round. Sick of it, too, myself.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. Don't give up the hope man
My family is all in PA, they are voting Obama. My friends are all voting Obama, and even some Repubes I know are voting Obama.

Buckle up man! :hug:
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Thanks--I'm just thinking through the worst, and bracing for it.
:hug:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
26. You Are Right In Many Ways.
Not sure he should drop out just yet, but you do have a lot of strong and objective logic in your post. That's why Hillary will have a lot of ammunition at the convention. With all his money, momentum and victories, he still couldn't win the big states. If with all that on his side he was still able to fall in both Ohio and Texas, he now carries with him some huge risks he has to prove he can overcome in the GE. And SD's don't like uncertainty...
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
28. If Ohio does one thing, PA often reacts against it.
PA people hate being considered like OH people.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
42. Well, Pittsburgh hates Cleveland, so I hope that old rivalry comes into play!
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
134. All the Ohio teams suck
Go Steelers!
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
65. there is some truth to that
:rofl:

:hi:


It's part of that Steelers/Browns thing.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. Vote against the Cleveland Brownies, for Myron!
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
29. I think you give up too easily
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 11:20 AM by nomad1776
Obama has just been hit with a Rove like broadside, from the Clinton camp. Give him a chance to show he can shake off the slime and continue to be a positve agent for change and hope.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
30. Are you drinking? n/t
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
39. Naw, I wish. I only have an old Seagrams wine cooler in the fridge left over from New Year's, and
that wouldn't be enough to do anything meaningful to my mood.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #39
48. You can quit, but Obama is going to win even if Hillary takes PA by 20%
Your OP, especially the part ranting on about attacks on Obama being a Muslim, etc. smacks of feigned concern.

You and anyone who props up the myth about McCAin really need to read this.

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. No, it's not feigned concern. It's GENUINE concern that the American people
tend to be fearful, stupid, and creatures of habit, that's all.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. The American people are giving Obama a win, and you are hoping that he will quit
because of stereotypes. That's ludicrous.


Do you know that he's ahead by any measure?

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #55
61. I know--I acknowledged that he is certainly ahead in my post, but
I think last night's results will be spun (sucessfully, by a very pro-Hillary media) of "buyer's remorse" and "can't close the deal"--and I believe there is some truth to that. It's not Obama's fault--there are some things he can't change: his relative youth, his race, the media build-up and tear-down that happens with ALL of our candidates. I'm not blaming his losses solely on race or the Muslim smear or on any one thing--but there seems to be a weird disconnect in some parts of the country between what people seem to want, what they tell pollsters, and what they actually vote for when the chips are down, at that last crucial moment. Here in the whitey-white Great Plains, they love Obama and don't hesitate to vote for him, but the population-rich, ethnic states (those that we need in November) seem to have a real hard time voting for him, for some reason, even when they show up in huge numbers to see him speak. It's disquieting to me. Hillary has to bus people in to fill seats. What does this say about Obama's support?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. None of what you write changes his lead, and your only evidence is stereotypes. n/t
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
90. Can't disagree on that.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
31. lol when ever we pick teams for anything remind me to pick you last
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #31
44. I was always picked last. I smell like a quitter from a mile away, apparently!
Actually, I always just try to be realistic and truthful, even when it's terribly painful. I hope I am wrong, but I am not optimistic.
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progdog Donating Member (435 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
146. TRY "HOPE"
It works.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
32. No. He shouldn't.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
34. Relax. There are MANY other states to go. But, Obama does
need to adjust his campaign and go on offense.
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
35. Man up dude!
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SoonerPride Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
37. Wins in other states count, too
.........and Obama will sweep the others besides Pennsylvania.

Hillary should drop out.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #37
118. HilBilly would rather McLame be Prez than Obama, based on
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:07 PM by coalition_unwilling
her putative endorsement of McLame's experience over Obama's "speech in 2002". Abso-friggin-lutely reprehensible.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
38. Wiener, come on. We're Democrats, we don't give up this easily.
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 11:25 AM by goldcanyonaz
Now, pull up your big girl panties and fight on.

:loveya:

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #38
105. Kind words, thanks.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
40. It is ironic that the one who would benefit from Obama giving up the inside track
(though no guarantee) on the nomination for the sake of the party's unity and electoral prospects would be someone who would not give up an "outside track" to the nomination for the same reason.
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Westegg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
41. Bullshit.
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
45. neither should give up
it simply isn't over yet. It's primary season and unfortunately, this is way politics tends to work.



I don't get why folks are always so eager to throw in the towel, when there is still so far to go?
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #45
58. I understand what you're saying, but...
the longer this drags out the better it will be for McCain. It's not that folks are eager to throw in the towel as much as it is trying to come to some resolution of this thing as quickly as possible for the good of the party.
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. this has happened a lot in the history of our party
we are a big rowdy, sometimes conflicted tent and we don't march in lockstep like the Reps do. No reason for that not to be a strength.

We already know what the Reps will throw at our candidate, anyway. I don't think it going all the way to the convention is that much of a problem. It seems to make the primary more exciting, more interesting, engenders more debate and gets out more voters.


Lots of campaigns drag on, it's the nature of the political process.

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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. Two good examples of your scenario.
It was pretty rowdy in both 1968 and 1980 and as it turned out we lost both of those elections in the general.
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. but that doesn't mean we will lose
we have the Reg. advantage and we can get out the votes to win.



we need to get out of this "we will lose" mentality. We need to think, "we will win." :shrug:
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Mooney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
46. Don't let it get to you
If Obama becomes the nominee, he's going to have to weather a shitstorm that will make the last two weeks look like Hillary Clinton had never laid a glove on him. It's going to be absolutely brutal. So now, when the chips are down, is when we get to see what Obama's really made of. This is important, and he needs to go through this.

If he can withstand this change in his fortunes and the negativity that comes with it, then I think it will settle some questions for people about whether or not he's ready for this. If he simply crumbles in the face of adversity, then he's not ready for this yet.

I voted for Obama in the NY primary, and so far I think he's handled himself well. I think he knows what he's doing. But the real test of his character and his viability is how he fares when things are not stacked in his favor. Can he keep going and regain his momentum, or is he going to fold at the first sign of adversity?

This thing is a marathon, which both he and Hillary Clinton seem to understand.
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NYDem Observer Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
47. Your Logic Is Severely Flawed
1. He is up by a significant margin, why drop out now when there is absolutely no way she could overtake him in pledged delegates.

2. You write "He couldn't pull it out, not even after all the previous wins, after all the money raised and spent, after rallies and excitement unprecendented in modern politics, after speeches that inspired a demoralized nation, after very solid debate performances and with a well-run, well-organized campaign working for him--what does this say?"

Last I checked she was winning in Texas and Ohio by margins of 20+ pts less than a month ago and she barely won Texas and he made up 10+ points in Ohio, to me thats a moral victory especially when he is well ahead and all he needs to do is stay within 15 points of her in the remaining states. Making up 20+ points may not be pulling it out but it certainly was a step in the right direction.

3. So what if he doesn't win Pennsylvania. He will win at least 8 of the remaining 12 states including NC, which means Hillary's back will be squarely against the wall come convention time.

Seriously, one bad night and you're ready to throw in the chips, wow, looks like you weren't much of an Obama supporter to begin with.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
49. Turning your logic around on you.
You said that "Hillary exposed his multiple weaknesses" but how many of Clinton's weaknesses did Obama expose during his run of 12 straight victories? After Wyoming and Mississippi which are next on the calendar Obama will probably have 14 victories out of the last 17 contests. Yet you say Obama should be the one who drops out? Give me a break. I agree that the longer this contest goes on the more it helps McCain, but why should Obama be the one who drops out? Clinton has been much more divisive than Obama has and has gone really negative lately. Let's have her drop out for the good of the party, not Obama.
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
51. Step down? While he's ahead in the delegate count? And what is it that you're smoking???
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
52. Obama keeps gaining ground. Clinton does not.
Obama was far back in the polls in Texas and Ohio. He has the ability to gain support and move up. He did. Clinton does nothing but lose support over time. She hit her wall a long time ago and she'll never get a majority of voters in November.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
57. OFFS
she barely won two states she was leading by more than 20 points in just a few weeks ago.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
59. You are right to say that he will not win Ohio and Pennsylvania.
What HRC did to him was very minor. If he can't take the slighest amount of critisizm, then he will buckle in the fall.
I don't agree with you that she is the status quo. She is for change, change for the better.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. Look, this is not the thread to promote Hillary, because I'm not even
going to get into my horrible toxic feelings about her and her campaign--wouldn't be prudent at this juncture. I don't agree that what she did was "minor"--she bypassed legitimate issues and went straight for the lies, innuendoes, distortions, and smears, and it worked. My point is that if it worked now, it might stick and cripple him in November against the GOP--either that, or he's somehow inoculated now and will come back stronger, I don't know. That's all I'm going to say right now, or I'm going to start spitting nails.
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Scriptor Ignotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
62. see you in November
I'll keep fighting, thanks.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
66. It was a stupid suggestion when it was said of Hillary before TX and OH, and it's still stupid now
Nobody's dropping out.
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RoadRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
67. Umm.. No. Even if he DOES lose PA.. it will be
by a similar margin that he lost OH.. she gains what, 10 - 15 delegates? She's still over 100 behind?

Nope.. the only way she can have this election is if she steals it via the Super D's.. and that puts her in a lose/lose situation.

I'm not "giving in" to her just because she is content to tear this party apart at any cost. That's all the more reason Obama should (and will) stay in and fight for this nomination. He's played the right game.. kept his head out of the dirt & above the fray.. and it will pay out in the end.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
69. Of course he shouldn't step down - he's ahead.
Take a pill and chill out.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
70. your posts have been trending to the Hillaresque for some time
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 12:09 PM by JackORoses
You are seriously giving up based on last night's results?

He made up 20 point margins in 2 weeks even with all the shit Hillary was spewing.
People tire of shit quickly. She will not be the nominee.

You shouldn't make any determinations based on states that were always predicted to go for Hillary.
You should be amazed that Obama did as well as he did.
She made no dent in his lead.

Did you give up when Hillary won California? Probably so.
But then what happened?
Give Obama some credit.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. LOL! "Hillaresque"--that's funny. I have always been a staunch
Obama supporter, during my year on this forum. No, I didn't "give up" when he lost CA, I was happy overall with his Super Tuesday performance. I have said many times how amazing his accomplishments have been in this campaign, against the Clinton machine--he's matched her every step of the way, and that's a massive achievement for someone with the deck stacked against him. My view of his worthiness as a candidate did not change. I only question his viability against relentless smears, of all varieties--this upcoming period could prove to be a crucible that makes him stronger, or it could prove to cast a lot of doubt on his ultimate viability in the eyes of the SD's. I don't know right now, I'm just offering some food for thought.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #73
83. how is calling on Obama to step down food for thought?
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 12:53 PM by JackORoses
That is just lame, my friend. And it manifests pessimism.
Just look how many people's minds you have affected with this.
Did you even believe it as you were typing it?

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #83
94. I thought about it before I wrote. I have doubts, and as an honest
person, I thought I'd voice them and see what people thought. This is something that is painful to acknowledge, but must be faced--what are Obama's true strengths and weaknesses? CAN he prevail in November? Does he want to keep the race going if he gives it his all and still can't garner enough support at key moments, in key regions, among key demographic groups? This is what the party elders, and Obama, have to think about. Is he gonna listen to me? Nah.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #94
109. there is a difference between "Should Obama step down?" and "Obama should step down"
I think you know that. Which did you intend?
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
74. Any other Obama supporters agree?
I don't agree that he should step down now, but as much as it pains me to say it, the OP makes some good points. If she wins big in Pennsylvania, I think he might have to reevaluate things.

Last night's results made me pretty discouraged about Obama's ability to win the general. My boss said months ago that there are too many racists for him to carry Ohio, and I think he might be right. I also think Obama's perceived lack of experience is hurting him, although I personally consider it a plus.

I want to see Obama become the next president more than anything, but maybe he shouldn't have jumped in so soon. Maybe he'd have been better off, or at least perceived as better off, if he'd spent a few more years in the senate first. But I'd hate to have him become just another Washington politician and lose his idealism, and I am afraid that's what would happen if he waited 4 or 8 more years.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #74
93. He doesn't need Ohio necessarily. And I sure as shit don't agree.
Don't get me wrong, I think once Obama wins the nomination, he should fight tooth and nail for every state. But I think he can flip enough formerly GOP states (especially in the Southwest and Mountain regions) that he could lose Ohio and still win the nomination.

Even a big win in Pennsylvania (say 60-40) would keep Hillary behind in the numbers game.

Personally, I'm kind of shocked that so many of Obama's supporters are so angst filled after only a couple losses. What did you all think, that he'd win every state from 2/5 to the convention?
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MollieBradford Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
75. I am sorry to see you hurting, I really am
but here are some facts

there was 70 million spent to get something on the Clintons and they got what, evidence of nookyfibs. Sorry, how does that translate to sleaze?

Rezko is real, the guy bought Obama's yard for him and Obama made it possible for rezko to profit huge off of taxpayers and his slum lord land deals. It stinks and the republicans will not be afraid to attack him and risk being called racist. They don't give a damn about the black vote like Clinton does and must.

Obama is not losing because people are racist. Sure some people are and will not vote for him and some people are sexist and will not vote for Clinton. But it is that people in big blue states do not tend to be easily baffled by fluffy speeches. Seriously, who bunches of us do not find him the least bit inspiring but rather insipid and self righteous.

PA is a state with a low tolerance for Obama's brand of politics. They want a winner not an excuse maker and he has an excuse for everything.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #75
124. The blood of 1,000,000 Iraqi civilians dead and over 2,000,000
Iraqi civilians wounded is drip, drip, dripping off HilBilly's hands.

HilBilly claims she was "misled" about the intelligence on Iraqi WMD. Were you "mis-led"?

If HilBilly is telling the truth, she's the biggest dupe in American presidential political history (and so much for experience right there). If she's not telling the truth, then one must ask why she voted for the IWR. Was it to prove how "tough" she was on National Security?

Want to talk about "sleaze"? That's a textbook definition of it in my opinion. HilBilly may not be a war criminal but she sure collaborated with and enabled war criminals.
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MollieBradford Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #124
128. nice freeper language
and the hyperbole and hysteria were tasty too.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
79. you're catching on. those are some political realities that must be faced. nt
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #79
92. and thus "INEVITABLE" returns
Its a frikkin TIE, people!
Obama is ahead in delegates AND popular vote
Hillary can't catch up but she can wear you down with negativity.

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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
80. wiener, did you eat a bad hot dog last night?
Obama still has won 12 of the last 15 states!

He is ahead in delegates by close to 100 and he is ahead in the national popular vote by just over 600K.

He needs to counter punch far more aggressively and focus on Hillary - not McCain.

He by all accounts has the math to have won already - I think your logic may be flawed by disappointment, but it it not a rational argument.

Hang in there.

And take your real dog for a wonderfully long walk - bet you will feel better! :hi:

We need you and we need OPTIMISM for Obama! I just donated again last night.

peace~ :)
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. Thanks--appreciate the kind words.
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smotrage Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
81. Why is it racist for white people to vote for a white person?
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 12:51 PM by smotrage
More than 8 out of 10 blacks are voting for Obama. Are they also racist? Will you blame racism when he wins Mississippi?

The Obama campaign is surrounded by a thick layer of white guilt. Before we can elect a black president, we need to sort that out because it's not healthy at all.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. Wow, first comment and oh so wrong right out of the gate. I didn't
lay the blame for his losses SOLELY on racism--there are many factors involved. That's a component, though, it's undeniable. I'm not judging it either way, just acknowledging reality. Are blacks racist to vote for him because he's black? Probably not, because they're a minority, and there are so few historical opportunities for a member of their race to reach this level in politics--it's understandable for them to get excited over one of their own. They are certainly willing to vote for whites, so that deflates the racism argument. I don't charge sexism when females want to vote for the first female President, because women certainly don't hesitate to vote for men. These are traditional minorities (in power and politics, anyway) finally getting a chance to make a historic breakthrough happen. That's a far cry from some asshole who refuses to vote for ANY black, Jew, Catholic, Mormon, etc., no matter who's running--and THAT is unfortunately common.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #81
111. In OH, 20% said race was a deciding factor in their vote...85% of themvoted Hillary
Very sad statistics. No matter who you support.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
84. Not a loyal supporter are you? nt
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
86. re:"It's too elderly a population, too subtly racist, and too resistant to change.":
I agree with you on this statement about PA. Gov. Rendell said that people in PA were not ready to elect an African-American and he was called racist for calling it the way he sees it.

It is possible for Obama to win some more states (MS, OR, NC, WY, MT)- won't that help?
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
87. Obama sank himself...don't blame anyone but Obama
it was his judgement to continue to have dealings with Rezo long after Rezco's sleeeze was revealed

it was Obama's judgement to water down an Illinois bill banning nuclear waste in the drinking water supply, after getting big donations from Exelon, a nuclear reactor corporation

etc..................
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #91
110. Those aren't lies. Mr. Hope is in Exelon's pocket. That's just a fact.
Deal with it. He also LIED to Iowas voters about passing the Nuclear Bill, saying it passed when it DIDN'T because his buddies at Exelon didn't want it to pass.

You might also talk to the Maytag Union in Galesburg Illinois about Obama taking a TON of money from the Maytag Crown family before they moved their Galesburg plant to Mexico and he did NOTHING to try to stop them. Deal with it.

He also knew about the Rezko scandal LONG before he decided he should be king, so it's no one's fault but his own. Deal with it. NO ONE gets to buy a property worth $625,000 for ONLY $125,000 without some kind of favor in return. Those favors will come out in the trial. Deal with it.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #87
96. The Rezko thing is nothing compared to the massive level of sleaze
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 01:11 PM by wienerdoggie
and corruption that the Clintons have gleefully wallowed in, like pigs in mud, from their Arkansas days, so shove it up your heinie.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
88. Screw that noise.
I can understand you being down after last night (well, I can kinda understand -- really, Obama did what he needed to do: He held Clinton to only a marginal gain in delegates), but there is absolutely no reason to throw in the towel now.

The truth of the matter is, either one of our candidates can paint McCain as a warmongering degenerate. It won't be hard. So buck the fuck up, fasten your seatbelt, and keep fighting.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
89. Wow, WD...do you know what
it's like to be offline yesterday and come back and see an Obama supporter write that "Obama should step down"? Whoa..That was a sickening feeling! I didn't know what to think?

I'm glad to see it's nothing seroius that's for real.

Then I went to my email and got this from Obama whom I think is the one who should know these kinda things..

z --

We may not know the final outcome of today's voting until morning, but the results so far make one thing clear.

When the dust settles from today's contests, we will maintain our substantial lead in delegates. And thanks to millions of people standing for change, we will keep adding delegates and capture the Democratic nomination.

We knew from the day we began this journey that the road would be long. And we knew what we were up against.

We knew that the closer we got to the change we seek, the more we'd see of the politics we're trying to end -- the attacks and distortions that try to distract us from the issues that matter to people's lives, the stunts and the tactics that ask us to fear instead of hope.

But this time -- this year -- it will not work. The challenges are too great. The stakes are too high.

Americans need real change.

In the coming weeks, we will begin a great debate about the future of this country with a man who has served it bravely and loves it dearly. And we will offer two very different visions of the America we see in the twenty-first century.

John McCain has already dismissed our call for change as eloquent but empty.

But he should know that it's a call that did not begin with my words. It's the resounding call from every corner of this country, from first-time voters and lifelong cynics, from Democrats and Republicans alike.

And together you and I are going to grow this movement to deliver that change in November.

Thank you,

Barack


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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #89
99. That's a very nice email--I think I have it too, I just haven't checked my email
yet today. I have faith in Obama--just not the American people today, sadly. I hate to bring everyone down, but looking ahead of my home state of PA (because you know WY amd MS won't count), and seeing the same electorate lying in wait for him, I can't help but feel a little...hopeless. Maybe I'll buck up later.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #99
104. I feel your pain..that's why I was
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 01:38 PM by zidzi
offline yesterday 'cause I needed some R&R but we can do this.

New shit will come to light B-)

Edit~ for the money quote..

"We knew that the closer we got to the change we seek, the more we'd see of the politics we're trying to end -- the attacks and distortions that try to distract us from the issues that matter to people's lives, the stunts and the tactics that ask us to fear instead of hope.

But this time -- this year -- it will not work. The challenges are too great. The stakes are too high.

Americans need real change."

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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
95. I'm done with 1982 through 2008 smear politics.
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 01:09 PM by CitizenRob
I'm done with 80's, 90's and first decade smear politics. I'll vote based on a candidates ability to deliver the democratic dream.

Hillary voters see somebody who'll destroy anybody in her way, scorched earth politics. Kill all Republicans where they stand.

Obama voters see somebody who can rally the public to push both sides of the aisle to consensus.

I can't imagine voting to continue the scorched earth smear politics of the last three decades. If that makes me a fool, so be it, I'll be a fool who voted his conscience. I'd rather build a consensus then use a wedge.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
98. No Fucking Way!
NOT!
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Unsane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
100. As an Obama supporter myself, I understand where you're coming from.
Very thoughtful post.

Even if he were to pull out the nomination, Clinton is so hell bent on dragging him through the mud that he'd be damaged goods by then anyway. Who wants that? His career is really just starting. Why go through this bullshit? Be the '76 Reagan to her Ford. He has a future; she doesn't. She is old news. I almost think he needs to put in a good faith effort from here out and perhaps bow out in April--and let her ass lose to McCain.

What do you think his future prospects are for president?
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #100
106. Honestly, if he is not the nominee this time around, I don't know
that he will be President someday. There's a weird assumption, especially among Hillary supporters, that it's HER turn now, and it can be HIS turn in 8 years, but it rarely works that way. Sometimes I assume he would just try to run again, but I don't see how he can top this remarkable year. I just don't know.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
101. Never give up, never surrender! n/t
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BobbyVan Donating Member (502 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
103. Obama should fight, but he'll lose in the end
Hillary proved last night that the politics of fear works with Democrats. If that's the case, this whole enterprise is pointless. She voted for the war, and we all know that she'll continue our occupation of Iraq.

Does anyone really believe her when she talks about NAFTA, or Iraq? She's still a Goldwater Girl at heart.

Obama's words won't beat Hillary. She is just more ruthless, and that's what wins elections.

Game Over
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
107. For once I agree with you. Obama can only hurt the party

by staying in the race.

To be fair, though, McCain is not just "the old white guy who's been around forever and served in the military."

Let's first remember that no one chooses their sex or race or birthdate.

McCain can't help being an older white man (from a generation with no name) anymore than Obama can help being a younger black male Baby Boomer or than Clinton can help being an older white female Baby Boomer.

Read about McCain's military career and recognize that he served admirably in an unpopular war, spending 5 1/2 years as a POW. During the war he was not only badly injured but tortured. I was very much opposed to the war, but I never opposed those who served admirably. Some long-time DUers are Viet Nam vets and to say they "served in the military" is quite an understatement.

McCain graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, spent 22 years as a Navy pilot, then one or two terms in the House, and has been a Senator since 1986, is now in his fourth term. That's a lot of experience.

We may disagree with his positions on issues, and we should, but we shouldn't try to trivialize McCain's military or political career. We should remember that he has worked with Democrats, including Russ Feingold and Ted Kennedy, on bipartisan legislation. We'd also do well to remember that one of his children was a refugee in Bangladesh when he and his wife adopted her. Some Rovian operative (possibly the Devil himself) translated that into her being McCain's "illegitimate black child" in 2000, so he's a white man who's had the race card played against him and his innocent child.

We have to consider who has a better chance of beating a man with McCain's years of experience. Back when Nixon's presidency was falling apart, Hillary Clinton was one of only two women lawyers working on the Watergate investigation. After years of practicing law and working for causes in Arkansas, Clinton spent 8 years in Washington as First Lady and is now in her second term in the Senate. Obama has been in the Senate a mere three years, and has been running for president for two of those years. Of course he worked in Chicago before 2004 but Obama is simply too new on the national scene to beat McCain. Clinton was part of the Watergate investigation in 1972 so she began her career in Washington.

Clinton may not be your ideal candidate; she's not mine. But she can beat McCain, and she will surely be a better president than he would. That's the best deal we can get now.

Obama could win in the future and he will improve his chances for a future win by withdrawing now and supporting Clinton. While it's exciting to watch delegates arguing on the floor of the convention, we should give up the good theater and opt for a solid campaign against McCain. The GOP has their nominee, we need ours now.
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GihrenZabi Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #107
112. Kidding?
If Obama drops out, you lose:

1) All the young people who have entered the political process just to support Obama
2) All the independents who voted for Obama
3) All the moderates who crossed party lines to vote for Obama
4) All the people who Hillary polarizes against her

That's enough to cost Democrats the election right there, not even counting the increased Republican turnout you will see at the polls just because they hate her so much.

People aren't paying attention to the polls that give Obama a much greater advantage over McCain in a general election, whereas Hillary is in a dead heat - and she will have lost those four constituencies above in a general election.

Personally, I think the Dems are screwed either way at this point. It's dirty politics and smoke-filled-room dealings at the convention at this point. No one wins.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. Don't forget the Black Folks who are tired of the Clinton's shit......
and feel like they don't have anything to lose anyways, since they seem to remain at the bottom no matter who's on top.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #112
119. No, not kidding at all.

As for all those crossover votes "for" Obama, those people will vote for McCain in November. They voted for Obama in the primaries because the GOP wants the Dems to nominate Obama as he's the weaker candidate, therefore easier to beat.

Republicans always have high turn-out. Young people have never voted in general elections in large numbers. Maybe this year they would but more likely they'll follow the pattern of losing interest after the primary excitement.

Democrats who are polarized against Hillary Clinton will have to decide for themselves what to do. Republicans who are polarized against her KNOW what to do.

And you don't seem to realize how many Democrats are polarized against Obama and will not vote for him. That, combined with high Republican turn-out, will defeat Obama if he's the nominee.

It comes down to whether you prefer Clinton or McCain. I prefer Kucinich myself but the real choice is Clinton or McCain.
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GihrenZabi Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #119
122. Crossover votes?
Um, no. Republicans want Hillary to win, not Obama. Why is this even up for discussion? It's well-established at this point. The Republicans are absolutely salivating over the prospect of running against Hillary, because they know they can beat her.

Obama is who they DON'T want to run...so why would Republicans be crossing lines to vote for the candidate they don't want to run?

You cannot seriously suggest that as many people are polarized against Obama as are polarized against Clinton. That's pure partisanism looking way, way past the facts...
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #107
125. Don't mean to rain on your parade, but exactly how is it
"admirable" to fly fighter-bomber missions against a primarily agrarian society (Vietnam)? Call me contrarian, but I refuse to heroize those like McLame who rain death and destruction on civilians from the relative anonymity of 5,000+ feet altitude. If McLame's service was so friggin admirable, how do you square it with his hateful, racist comments as recently as 2000 about "gooks"?
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #107
150. that's an excellent post!
we do need to come to some kind of quick compromise

we are destroying each other and ensuring a nov loss

i always envisioned a Hillary/Obama ticket

this would give Obama 8 yrs to increase his exerience and be a shoe in for 2016

what do you say, folks?

otherwise...i can't see Obama winning against McCain

right now, the Iraq war is not even as divisive as it was a few months ago

i'm totally against it, but some dems are wavering, so are many others

hispanics like McCain for his fairly tolerant immigration stance

and McCain will have a huge national security advantage over Obama

sorry, but I can't see Obama winning against McCain

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
114. Wow. I disagree. And way to include a bunch of nasty stuff about Hillary.
Your post manages to put down both Obama and Hillary Clinton.

1. Hillary Clinton is not as bad as you portray her as being. She's not responsible for racism, for instance. We as a country have to own that ourselves.

2. Obama is not finished - not by a long shot. He still leads in delegates. He's likely to beat Hillary in most southern states.

As you note, Ohio and Texas are full of white racists. Some of them probably crossed party lines to vote against the black guy. They're not going to vote for a woman, either. This is no reason for the Democrats to concede.

I recently switched my support from Hillary Clinton to Barack Obama, because I'm impressed with the way that he has motivated so many people of all ages and backgrounds. Nothing has changed my mind.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. I didn't portray Hillary as anything other than the way I've always seen her.
I didn't accuse her of being responsible for racism. I do think her campaign is certainly behind some of the Muslim-rumor BS--that's pretty obvious. Will the GOP go there? Of course, which is why I'm not screaming too loudly. I'm not blaming everything on racism, just listing it as one of many factors that can and will hamper him. I've listed other things, such as his image of honesty and integrity that both Hillary and the GOP are trying to ruin. I don't know what will happen, just throwing my thoughts out there.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #117
129. I doubt that her campaign is behind the Muslim-rumor stuff - that's pure Republican tactics.
I thought that your characterization of Hillary Clinton is unduly harsh. She's a fellow Democrat. Why the hate?
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #129
132. Sorry if you think it's too harsh, but I have a low opinion of her. And
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 03:41 PM by wienerdoggie
since her camp was the one that started in with the madrassa-Hussein shit, and considering the timing of the photo leak, and her bizarre equivocating reply to the 60 Minutes question, it's clear they thought it might be a winning issue for them. You'd have to be stupid not to believe it.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. Thanks for the insult. I'm too bright to believe it.
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LVjinx Donating Member (711 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. Guess again
If you've ever been to FR you know exactly where the muslim madrassa stuff is coming from. And they truly believe it. Blaming Hillary for FR activities is just plain wrong.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
115. Please.....
not on your life will I give up on Obama.

You are buying the spin.

I'll PM you the real facts on the future of this race.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #115
120. I'm not buying the spin, I'm just trying to get down to the nitty-gritty, because
if it was just a math game, she would have dropped out after WI. She is going to get the SD's on her side by slinging even more mud at him, and I just don't have the stomach to see it happen. It's going to be bad.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #120
144. Obama will be the nominee. He actually won TX, dude.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #115
130. Why won't you post them here?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
121. That's what all y'all asked HRC to do when she was behing...
Turn about is fair play.

But I see by some of the posts from your buddies, this isn't going over too well... not shocking, but disappointing.

I see that only Hillary can save the party by throwing in the towel... unbelievable.

The most disturbing thing I keep seeing is people saying they won't vote for her in the general should she get the nom... now THOSE are the idiots who are guarantying McCain's win! Dumbasses.
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Sir Jeffrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
123. Give me a break...
Obama has been going relatively easy on Clinton because he knew how stupid it was to slime a fellow Democrat. He held his punches because he wanted to stay above the fray. That was a minor tactical mistake, since he narrowly lost TX and lost OH by *only* making up 7 points on Hillary in 2 weeks. He had an insurmountable lead before last night. Today he has an insurmountable lead. In three months, he'll have an insurmountable lead.

If Clinton wants all out war in a primary, I am fairly certain that she is going to get it. And I'd be willing to wager that for every Obama scandal she uncovers, there are about 10 Clinton scandals. The Clintons look like they have been throwing everything they have at him. Obama hasn't even started yet.

I think Obama has more fight in him than you are giving him credit for. Stop being a defeatist. The only camp that should be defeatist right now is the candidate with high negatives, fewer votes, fewer delegates, fewer states won, and less money.
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Hope08 Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
126. Buck up man!
Nothing personal, your post is well-written and you seem like a nice guy, but it is just this type of throw-in-the towel attitude that cost us Florida in 2000, when Gore could have called for a national strike to protect the will of the voters. And the consequences of Gore's defeatism have been a gradual erosion of personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution, economic upheaval, and a messianic foreign policy that has killed thousands of Americans -- and tens of thousands of Iraqis.

We will not give in: we will keep donating; we will keep registering voters; we will keep reciting the narrative of what a wonderful story America is, and how it continually surprises. We will keep telling America that it is time to come together, Republicans and Democrats, to find common solutions to the problems we face.

Remember that any ground-breaking change finds resistance from those who make their living off the status quo. And we are working hard to elect a person who intends not only to open wide the door of opportunity, but blow that door off its hinges.

As for last night -- hey, when Bobby Kennedy sought the Democratic nomination, someone had to vote for Eugene McCarthy or Hubert Humphrey. We'll pull it out in the end.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
127. Math is never wrong
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Radical Agitator Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
136. Obama Should Drop Out of the Democratic Race
Neither candidate will get the required number of delegates.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. So why should Obama drop out?
If Clinton can't get the required number either and is further behind, why should he be the one to quit?

I actually agree with some of the OP's points, but I think this thread was designed to ask Obama supporters to step back and look at where things stand. You Clinton supporters coming in and calling for him to drop out will only make this diary less effective. If I were you I'd stay out of it.
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Radical Agitator Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #140
152. Hard Truths for Hard Times - The Swing-State Strategy
Focus energy...


Swing state
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Origin of swing states

In the presidential elections of the United States, the U.S. Electoral College system allows each state to decide the method by which it awards electors. Since legislatures want to increase the voting power of the majority of their states, most states (except Maine and Nebraska, explained below) use the winner-take-all system. Since a campaign only needs to win a plurality of the popular vote in a state to give the candidate all of that state's electoral votes, no benefit is gained from receiving additional votes above the margin necessary to win. In other words, there are no incentives for campaigns to spend resources in states that are surely slanted to vote for a campaign.

Since a national campaign is interested in electoral votes, rather than the national popular vote, it tends to ignore states that it believes it will win easily; since it will win these without significant campaigning, any effort put into them is essentially wasted. A similar logic dictates that the campaign avoid putting any effort into states that it knows it will lose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_state

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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #136
142. So she should let Hillary, who is losing right now, win?
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
138. Dude, no. Obama is WINNING! Why in the would would he quit?
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
139. hey--Obama's misjudgement brought this on him
imagine if he were the nominee.....

he'd be shredded by the RNC
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #139
143. I don't completely disagree, but I think he'll learn from it
The whole Canada thing turned out to be much ado about nothing, but he didn't handle it well, and I am a little concerned now that his support could collapse as quickly as it did these past few days. But I think that he will learn from this and get back on the offensive quicker next time. If we are going to hold all of their campaign missteps and misjudgments against them, Clinton would have been out of here a LONG time ago. This nomination was hers to lose and she should have it wrapped up by now. He has done just about everything right and the second he makes a misstep you are calling for his head.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
141. The only people recommending this thread are desperate Hillarites
who know their girl didn't manage to do anything substantial to revive her candidacy. Obama will be the nominee and she should start asking for the VP spot.
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
145. step away from the crack pipe and surrender your avatar
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workinclasszero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
147. So the winner with the most delegates and popular votes should step down??
GTFO! :eyes:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
148. I thought this thread would die but it keeps coming back
Obama lost the battle. The battle of spin.

This was Hillary's most favorable day on the calendar and Obama completely neutralized it leaving her with + 10 delegates.

In the meantime he picked up 6 super delegates so far this week.

His magic number is down to 466 and with over 1000 delegates yet to be chosen he needs only 45 % of the delegates left to win.

On the superdelegates over the last month he has won 80% 67-16

He has

won more votes
more delegates
more primaries
more caucuses

raised more money
has more donors

has more endorsements of democratic

govenors
senators

It is entirely possible that this will be over before PA.--

Obama has won it mathematically there is no way Clinton can win


But she continue to get $ 1 million a day which she can put away for future political battles

She has lost and she knows it - there is no upside for her leaving now. Watch what she does in Mississippi I am betting that she doesn't even bother to show.



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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. Hillary's done. It's a matter of one week or two.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. They will keep it up as long as the money is flowing in and then
she will pull out "for the good of the party" and walk away with $ 50 million. This is such a fraud.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
153. No one should step down... unless the candidate herself/himself so chooses
Voters in 12 more states, including Guam and Puerto Rico, should be able to have a choice.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
154. You have some great points
and I agree that last night showed some real weaknesses Obama has to work with and unfortunately race seems to be one of them.

It's evidently difficult for him to connect with white working class people and seniors especially in the rust belt - and OH and PA are absolutely crucial to winning the presidency. Also, I agree about Hillary's own campaign (and I'm disgusted with much of it) but it won't be anything compared to the type the republicans will wage. Granted, I don't think Hillary has a great shot against McCain either of those two states in the GE (and there are several others where she is almost guaranteed to lose)...but the OH results remind me why the state is losing younger people and dying in so many ways. No, it has nothing to do with the state going to Hillary - but rather I am referring to the poll about race and how those that found it to be a major issue went 80% for Hillary. Truly disappointing and somewhat disturbing.

I do vehemently disagree about Obama dropping out. This race is not ending anytime soon. Obama still has a lead in pledged-elected delegates and the overall popular vote. This will however fluctuate. Hillary will almost definitely win PA. There's little doubt about that. The demographics are way too similar to OH (though in presidential elections has leaned just blue enough to tilt our way in '00 and '04). I'm convinced though that the super delegates will sit this out for a while. After all, there is a large number of states that Obama won and superdelegates from those states won't be willing to just ignore those results.

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anamnua Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
155.  Re OP. For the first time since I started reading DU
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 01:12 PM by anamnua
a posting from an Obamite has pierced my soul. I was left thinking at the end of it 'maybe she is right'. Obejctively being Irish I am probably biased towards the Clintons because of their enormous contribution the peace process here. The are effectively regarded as 'family'.
On the other hand I've read similarly eloquent and persuasive postings about the traduction and character assassination of the charming, virtuous, morally upright, socially philanthropistic HRC ( subtle appeals to misogyny, oblique smears of racism etc.) who has maintained a calm ladylike posture throughout the onslaught. And a plausible case has been made of BHO playing a Bush/Pontius Pilate act with multiple, shadowy, Rovian figures. Certainly within DU the Hillary-bashers are in the ascendant.
From this remove I'm beginning to wonder what to believe.
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