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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:29 AM
Original message
What Turned You Off Obama?
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 07:00 AM by Muzza
REASONS WHY I CANNOT SUPPORT OBAMA

I am writing this to explain why I cannot support Obama and to make it clear there is a logical, valid basis for why many people do not support him. I must admit that my dislike for him has intensified only recently. I previously liked him when he first started getting media attention. Granted I didn't know much about him in 2006/2007 but I thought he seemed likeable, attractive, charismatic and the prospect of a younger leader and man of color leading the country some day seemed exciting. But then things changed and bit by bit I began to turn from Obama...Here are some of the reasons which have certainly contributed to my rejection of him as a leader:

1. Anti-gay politics - Inviting anti-gay homophobe McClurkin to his campaign events in Oct 2007. I mean, that would be like Hillary Clinton inviting a member of the KKK to her campaign events - can you imagine the hysteria that would result? How dare Obama invite this man to his events and than claim to be a unifier?! Add in the story from 2004 when Obama refused to be in a photograph with the Mayor of San Francisco, who at that time was authorizing same sex marriage, and it's not looking good for gay rights.
http://www.gaycitynews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=1897854...
http://hillary.connexion.org/newsstory.cfm?id=12346&
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/0...

2. South Carolina - Accusing Hillary Clinton, or alluding to the possibility, that she and her husband were racist. To me that entire affair was Obama's desperate attempt to turn African-American votes away from Hillary Clinton and it worked. It was actually Obama's campaign who sent around a 4 page memo trying to whip up hysteria through the media in relation to this issue.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QQY_9ZcsjpQ&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vXXjWy-OztQ&feature=related

3. Iraq War position - the weakness of his position & his constant criticism of Clinton's actions way back really irk me. I find Obama's claim of the higher-ground in relation to the Iraq War very weak. The reality is that he was not in the US Senate when these decisions were made and he had nothing to do with it. It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and make all kinds of promises about a decision he had no part of. Had he been in the US Senate at that time and opposed the war, then I would credit him accordingly and he would have moral authority on this issue. But he wasn't and therefore he has no moral claim on this issue. He has voted to authorize war funding year after year. So where is the REAL opposition?

4. Hypocrisy in relation to special interests - Obama goes on and on about doing politics in a new way and not being controlled by special interests groups when in actual fact he has a long history of financial support from lobbyists and special interests groups. It astounds me that he still claims moral authority on this issue as well when he really doesn't have any right to considering his history of associations with lobbyists and special interest groups. He also has nil hesitation in dishing out hundreds of thousands of dollars to superdelegates - sounds like "establishment" behavior to me!
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/09/p... /
http://www.capitaleye.org/inside.asp?ID=336

5. Criticism of Clinton's health care agenda and policy of mandating health insurance - As a firm believer in universal health care, I find it very difficult to support any politician who attacks another politician who tries to achieve this goal. It is so blatantly obvious that mandating health insurance coverage is the only way to achieve universal health care in the USA. Obama's fearmongering in relation to this has really offended me. He's tried to scare people into thinking that Clinton's health care policy will force some people into poverty just to get them covered with health insurance. Totally misleading. I also found his cheap dismissal of Clinton's previous 1990s attempts at health care reform to be very disrespectful - when he has tried to do something similar and succeeds, maybe then his criticism will hold more weight.

6. Sexism & ageism towards Hillary Clinton:
(a) behavior: completely dismissing Hillary Clinton's 35 years of public service experience as being meaningless and irrelevant. If Obama had Clinton's resume we'd never hear the end of it! But suddenly when a woman has experience, it doesn't mean anything. The entire Obama campaign is premised on the negative notion that SHE (Clinton) is old, boring, and uninspiring whereas HE (Obama) is young, exciting and inspirational. Obama has used his male privilege and youth privilege as leverages to dismiss Clinton's obviously more impressive public service and political resume and I find that offensive. It shows a complete lack of respect for her, both as a woman and as a more mature person.
(b) rudeness: snubbing Clinton at the State of the Union when he was becoming close buddies with Ted Kennedy who ironically is part of that "establishment" that Obama claims to have no allegiance to...
(c) language: eg saying Clinton was "likeable enough" (he should never have answered that question in that way), the comment about "when she's feeling down...the claws come out"
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/02/is-obam...

7. Arrogantly dismissing all political achievements of others before his arrival on the national political stage: Sure, there's plenty to fault about politics in Washington but this line that "all good ideas die in Washington" is complete and utter nonsense. So how did the USA get to where it is today in 2008? Not one good idea became a practical success in Washington before 2008? Give me a break. This notion that Obama's arrival signals a new era in politics is one which I completely dispute & dismiss.

8. Dishonesty about use of Deval Patrick's speech material & completely dismissing the importance of crediting sources when using other people's material. What kind of message does this send to people? That it's ok to plagiarize, as long as it's from a buddy? To me this completely called into question Obama's character and ethics.

9. Hypocrisy - claiming to be above "dirty politics" but being more than willing to engage in it when the cameras aren't rolling: eg South Carolina hysteria, accusing Clinton of plagiarism after the Texas debate, the "harry & sally" healthcare mailer. I understand that politics can involve smear and dirty games, and fair enough, but don't claim you are above it and then keep doing it! That's called hypocrisy - saying one thing and doing another!

10. Empty promises - It worries me that Obama has "drawn in" new voters to the voting process with his "yes we can" message. How despondent and disillusioned will they feel when they come down from the clouds and realize that achieving monumental changes isn't as easy as chanting "yes we can"? I am a reasonable and open-minded person who is open to an engaging and connecting a charismatic style of leadership. But with Obama, my clear sense is that there is a lack of authenticity in many of his promises - combine this with all of the above 9 factors and I am than unable to hear anything he has to say.

11. Behavior of SOME (not all) Obama fans. I think that Obama, as a leader of a supposed "movement" has to take some responsibility for the behavior of his followers and his impact on them. Never in my life have I seen so much filth and vile language spread across the Internet about one person as I have seen with the online vilification of Hillary Clinton during this election. The amount of anti-Hillary hate and smear that has infected youtube, facebook, myspace, forums and news blogs is mind boggling. And a significant chunk of this is new and has been contributed by pro-obama fanatics. Seeing all of this filth, and being subjected to attacks from obsessed Obama supporters, I began to question once again how "unifying" Obama really was if significant numbers of his followers believe it's ok to infect the Internet with so much hate about one person. That's a worry.

TO BE CONTINUED...
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MoJoWorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Not a damn thing! But Hillary sure did with her 5 point kitchen sink plan
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 06:32 AM by MoJoWorkin
to smear Obama.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. DEFEND THE 11 POINTS
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
35. Ooo, vicious yelling in all caps.
Certainly proves my point about your number eleven point. See my post below.
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MagsDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
65. They can't... never have, never will
All they know is the media told them he is the second coming, and that's good enough. Sheeple.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. Exactly.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
154. CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!11!111!!!ELEVEN!!!
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #154
160. This is HUGH!!!????!!! I'm SERIES!!!!????
Get a brain MORANS!!!!

:rofl:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #160
161. oh the HUGH MANATEES
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #160
216. Don't get this one either...Hugh...Who is Hugh?
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #154
215. What the? I don't get it.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
171. IM SERIES!!!!!!!!!!
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
131. Its Obamas hypocritical supporters that turn me off
All this talk about 'hope' yet all we get from them is disgust and hatred. Any critique of Obama is a 'smear,' but anything goes against Hillary. The hypocracy of it all stinks to high heaven.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #131
134. Indeed.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #134
173. Says the guy with 389 Obama-bashing posts in literally one day. Tell me,
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 10:12 AM by Occam Bandage
you are aware that there is such a thing as a "message box," in which one might write replies to statements, right? Or does posting more than single-line statements slow you down?
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #173
217. I reply to everyone who makes a statement. Is that against the rules?
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IowaGirl Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #131
180. Niceypoo, I luv u!
Very well put. :toast:
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Mezzo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #131
201. truer words have not been spoken.
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 12:04 PM by Mezzo
Harry and Louise? The Punjab memo? The Nevada Thing? All legitimate ways for Barry to get more votes. But let that undoctored pic of Obama get JOHN MCCAIN'S DICK OUTTA THE NEWS and these nutjobs scream, "Hillary!!!!11!!!! it's Hillary11!!1!!! I'm SERIES!!!11eleven!!! She didn't DENY it!11! It's HUGH!!!!111!!!!!!1

(For that matter, Barack Obama never denied that he got his dick sucked by a coke loon while hitting a crack pipe, so that means he must have done it) I'm SERIES!!!11! I see the light now!111!11! It's twue!!1! BO *MUST* have done that because he NEVER DENIED IT, neither did his campaign!11!!! And Hillary put that picture out there that's been there since JANUARY!!!11!! She did!11! She should step down right now!1 I'm series!!11!1111

And no one is talking McCain and his salacious affair, notice.

My GOD these people are fucking stupid.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. Nothing my dear, nothing
His McClurkin crap pissed me off, but not enough to put me off him.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. So if Hillary invited the KKK to her campaign, you'd be ok with that?
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Ridiculous Strawman. She invited her husband who threw gays under the bus with DADT and DOMA?
Yes, more proof that it's opposite day.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. Hill has a high profile minister supporter from Boston
who supports "conversion therapy". Sorry, no different than Obama and McClurkin.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Ok, that's 1/11
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
207. For 2/11
Edwards, Clinton and Obama have all adopted the 1971 Nixon health care proposal.
Clinton is not offering "universal health care". Only Kucinich proposed that.
Clinton's proposal is a carbon copy of the Nixon plan.
In states where mandates have been forced, the number of uninsured goes up!

Full info here:

www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/opinion/15woolhandler.html
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #207
219. Universal health insurane coverage is what I meant.
I do understand the difference. Universal health care is Australia/Canada/UK where public health is funded via the tax system.

I don't agree with a voluntary health insurance system. Pointless.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. Oh, did she invite him to her rallies? Did she let him rant anti-gay propaganda?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. She appeared with him at an event in Boston
he does rave the same shit as McClurkin. She had kind words for him. And McClurkin was at one Obama event and Obama was not there. It's a draw and I don't like it from either campaign. At least Obama promises to fully revoke DOMA. Hillary only wants to revoke part of it.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Ok, 1/11. Still leaves me with 10 no-obama reasons.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. I wouldn't say I agree with most of those
but he's far from a perfect guy. But #11 really doesn't do the guy any favors.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Yes, #11 is one of the worst!
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
43. his supporters
were just the final straw. i don't like the preachiness of his speeches, or that he doesn't do well if everything isn't scripted and stage managed, but the main reason that i don't support him and won't vote for him is because imo he just doesn't have the experience needed to do a good job. the next president is going to have a lot of major problems dumped in their lap. i think obama is ill suited to get the support of the congress and effect the real change he keeps promising. he strikes me more as a political opportunist, who after weighing the odds decided to go ahead and jump. jmho but the country will be in a worse position should obama become president, the democrats will be divided, and the repubs already have their obstruction thing down. i expect obama will get the nomination, but he's in for a lot tougher time than everybody thinks when it comes to beating mccain in november.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Thanks for your response.
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. Are you asking Obama what turns him off?
Probably negative people. :rofl:
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Whatever. You're not living in reality!
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I'm not?
Thank god because I pay rent in Missouri.
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
199. (rimshot)
:rofl:
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. Harry & Sally??? I get it, it's opposite week. Dude do you really take yourself seriously?
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 06:39 AM by JTFrog
Or was that a Fox TV special. We know where you do your research!!!!

:rofl: :rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MagsDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
62. Oh, I almost forgot that one
using the exact same talking points and mimicking the ad that rethugs used to kill universal healthcare -- another great reason not to vote for him. Who's side is he on again? Not ours.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. Precisely!
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. Bitter nonsense.
Obama is flawed, but I chose him because he's less flawed than Hillary. Their policies are largely the same. Hillary also has the support of a prominent anti-gay minister from Boston, and has spoken of him in glowing terms. His GLBT policies are actually slightly better than hers.

Bill Clinton and the Clinton campaign made one clumsy statement on race after another. The Obama campaign stepped back and let them torpedo themselves. It was the Clinton campaign that had to get rid of a state chair who made ugly comments. It was the Clinton campaign that had to apologize. It was the Clinton campaign that had to get rid of two volunteers who spread anti-Muslim smears. The Clinton campaign stepped in it.

Obama has been consistent about the Iraq War, even if he hasn't shown the leadership I would have liked to have seen. Hillary cheer led the war and voted for the IWR. Inexcusable. She also voted against Pat Leahy's cluster bomb reduction legislation. No wonder that Leahy, one of the most liberal/progressive legislators in D.C. rejected her and endorsed Obama.

Both candidates are embroiled too much with special interests, but Hilly's been much, much cozier with corporate interests. this has been documented repeatedly. Looks like Obama has nothing on you when it comes to hypocrisy.

It's a primary race. Yes, he criticizes her policies. Of course, he's nothing close to as disrespectful toward her or her policies as she is to him.

He has been neither sexist or ageist toward your heroine. You just pulled that out of some orifice.

blah, blah, sour grapes, made up bullshit and ugly lies. And YOU have the gall to complain about others?
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Disagree sorry. But thanks for your response.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. I forgot to add:
Anyone who doesn't vote for the dem nominee is a fool of the first order. Inexcusable and disgusting. I don't care if you support Hillary or Obama or Edwards or anyone else. There is no excuse for such profound egocentrism and selfishness. And fortunately, we won't have to put up with it once the deal is sealed and we have our nominee. Posts like this one will not long see the light of day and posters like you should find somewhere else to spew your vileness.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I have a right to my opinion. As you do. Thank for your feedback.
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MagsDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
74. Are you gay or lesbian?
He's such a fucking coward he wouldn't have his picture taken with Gavin Newsome because he supported marriage right in San Fran. And she sure as hell didn't give a homophobe the stage for 30 min to crucify gay people. You know, I read post after post from you that do nothing but excuse him for all his slimy shit. In a thread a few minutes ago you were trying to make the claim that voting for a guy you KNOW is lying about PAC money and lobbyists when he villifies other candidates is not unprincipled.

Just how far will you compromise yourself, and STILL make ridiculous accusations about sour grapes. Jesus fuck, is it so hard to believe that people might not like a guy that panders openly to bigots and lies his ass off?
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #74
85. I hear ya! Loud & clear! I am gay.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
155. Obama won't call himself a LIBERAL.
What is his problem? I am a LIBERAL and he does not have the guts to say it.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #155
164. Has Clinton called herself a liberal?
If not, moot point.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #155
220. This is Obama's problem all round...
He never wishes to alienate anyone if there are votes at stake so he says one thing to one group and another thing to others, depending on what's needed at the time. His positions seem to shift like the wind which makes me wonder - what does he really stand for and believe in if everything is about pleasing people and maximizing votes!?
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
16. Well said. What goes around comes around.
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 06:44 AM by Perry Logan
I still like Obama. But some of his followers have put my patience to the test.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Indeed. I welcome your insight on this matter.
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Yossariant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
19. Obama's race baiting turned me off him for good.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Indeed! But dare we mention it!!?? Shhh....
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MagickMuffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
24. I haven't found anything yet
#11. I see things very differently. I think Hillary supporters are just as vile. I have been to some Pro-Hillary websites and couldn't believe the hateful shit I read there.

I would mention one of them, but I'm sure you post there on a daily basis.

For someone who's only been here for less than 48 hours you sure are busy here.


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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. No, I don't....
And it's very obvious that there is a whole lot more anti-hillay stuff than there is anti-obama stuff...

Also, there is a difference between negatively critiquing a candidate's policies/personality and vilifying a candidate through vile/hateful language. The 2 things are completely separate. Majority of anti-hillary stuff I see falls into the second cateogry.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. Oh you mean sites like this one?
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 07:01 AM by JTFrog
Pro Hillary Site?

Sorry for the cached link, but as of yesterday the site is no longer open to unregistered visitors.

I wonder who Admin of that site is. :eyes:
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. You are like a stalker! Scary!
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. zOMG!!! Someone didn't forget what you tried to hide yesterday!!! Stalkerz R here!!!111!
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
210. Wow - that site is pretty funny!
There are anti Obama links to Republican web sites, 'positive thought' threads (I thought that only 'cults' would have those ;) ), conspiracy theories about the big bad media who has it in for Hillary, and a note from our new visitor who calls DU a "Scary Place". :rofl:

Here is his thread at his site about DU:
http://www.democraticunderground.com

Has anyone ever posted in the forums at this site? It's a pretty scary place. There is one forum called "Presidential Candidates: Primaries" which is for topics about Clinton and Obama. Suffice to say it's a primarily Obama-influenced forum aside from a few quiet Hillary supporters. Not sure what came over me but last night I posted three topics in their last night and I was flooded with angry responses! They didn't like what I had written let me tell you! And because this HC forum address was in my signature, some of them obvioulsy (sic) felt the need to come over here, snoop around and post pro-Obama, anti-Hillary stuff. So I apologize for bringing them here! Was my own fault!

The 3 topics I posted:

Pro-Obama & Anti-Hillary
http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=132x4751899

Obama's Non-Attendance at State of the Black Union
http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=132x4751788

Letter from a Besieged Clinton Supporter
http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=132x4753442
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #210
226. Class Act Indeed!
Spying and redistributing material elsewhere for which you do not have permission to do so. Mmm...that's sounds like a breach of copyright. You do not have permission to publish this material on this site. How desperate you must be to feel the need to register as a user of that forum and then copy/paste the material in this forum.
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MagickMuffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #37
55. Well, that isn't even the one I was thinking of, and I decided for now I won't give them attention
But it is obsessed with Resko. Then they come here and start thread after thread about it.

Must be hard for them.


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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Yes I know which one you mean. There are some that she even endorses that make my skin crawl. nt
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 07:24 AM by JTFrog
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From The Left Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
25. Nothing Turned Me Off to Barack Obama
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 06:54 AM by From The Left
Everything turned me off to the Borg Queen.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. Refer to #11
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
26. it's not Patrick Deval
it's Deval Patrick

I stop reading there
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. Whatever. None of you obama fans can take criticism!
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. wow you are bitter
way to 'attempt' to insult me when all I did was point out your mistake.

i would think someone as politically savvy as yourself would obviously know the name of the man you are citing.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #40
48. I actually thanked you. And I do know his name. It was an error.
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
203. THAT was a thank you?
Here is your post in all of it's ugly copy and pasted glory. Nothing has been omitted. Can you please point out to me exactly where you 'thanked' him? :crazy:
Muzza (389 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Tue Feb-26-08 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. Whatever. None of you obama fans can take criticism!
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From The Left Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #34
69. Hi Sore Loserman
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. That was a great defense. Hope you enjoy those 11 points if he gets in power!
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
38. But thanks - I corrected.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #26
170. LMAO!
This thread, like the OP, is hillarious. This has to be listed as one of the funniest threads ever!!!

:rofl:
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Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
28. 7 through 11
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
39. Ok!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
30. Hmm.
Response

1. Hillary and Bill's support of DOMA.

2. Umm, it actually was a racist attack on their part. Sometimes the truth hurts.

3. Oh puhleeze Vulcan. This is utterly bizarre. Hillary voted to enable Bush's war when she voted for the IWR, but she's continued to support the war, refused to admit it was a mistake, and gone on and rattled the saber at Iran. Please stop acting like this isn't Hillary's Achille's heel. It is. I'm not a big Obama fan, I find his positions within five degrees of Hillary's on most issues. They're both very much centerists. However I simply can't support Hillary. Rather I think that she should be held accountable for her actions in enabling and supporting an illegal, immoral war.

4. I actually agree with you on this.

5. Neither one of them has true UHC. Neither are single payer, non-profit, which, up until these candidates started twisting definitions this campaign, was a vital part of the definition of UHC. However forcing people to buy insurance simply gives these corporations a monopoly, and gee, won't we watch the insurance rates go sky high. In addition, her plan includes huge tax breaks for the insurance industry, thus they'll be stealing money out of our pocket in two ways, through premiums and taxes. Not a good thing. No wonder the insurance industry has contributed the most money to Hillary.

6. First of all, Hillary's claim that she's got 35 years of public service is a specious one at best. Sorry, but being first lady isn't real meaningful experience. She wasn't elected, she was simply along for the ride. Her only real public service was as Senator from New York. Other than that, she was a corporate lawyer and board member of WalMart, and that certainly isn't public service.

Furthermore, when a younger candidate is facing an old when, there are going to play up the "new, young, exciting" factor. Hell, Bill did it in '92, JFK did it in '60. It isn't a sexism thing, it is a political thing, and Hillary is on the receiving end. Her campaign should have realized this was coming and compensated for it. They didn't and she's suffering. As far as the supposed snub, etc., you're making mountains out of molehills here.

7. Again, this is simply part of the political game. The line that "all good ideas. . ." is an old one used many times before. And frankly, I wouldn't call the turn Washington has taken over the past eight years, getting into an illegal, immoral war, shredding the Constitution, and tanking the economy, in any way, shape or form a good turn.

8. Dishonesty where? Duvall is one of his advisers and friends, they bounce ideas and lines off of each other all the time, and it was Duvall who actually urged Obama to use those lines. Again, another mountain out of a molehill.

9. You know, it's politics, and both sides are going to get dirty while trying to still claim that they're actually clean. This has been going on for decades and centuries now, and is a standard part of any political campaign. Deal with it and stop whining.

10. You know, this sounds just like petty jealousy coming out. Politicians and people have been wanting the youth vote to come out for decades now, and when somebody actually turns it out, the rest of those in the race are jealous, and get all pissy about it. Well hey, perhaps if Hillary had made the right moves she could have had the youth vote. Instead she ran a campaign that looked back to the nineties rather than ahead, and the youth vote didn't go for the nostalgia trip. Oh well, get over it. I'm sure that even if the youth vote is let down a bit once Obama gets into office, they'll get over it and move on. Hell, everybody else does, why shouldn't they?

11. This could apply to Hillary's supporters also. Neither side of this battle is clean, and guess what, that's part of the game. Political supporters get down and dirty in every campaign. If you can't stand the heat, etc. etc.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. Ok...
Let's focus on the positive - we agreed on #4 !

Thanks for your detailed rebuttal.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. So, apparently that leaves you holding what? Thin air
Sorry, but this OP of yours is nothing more than bitter and jealous whining, and sadly, you can't even defend it. Pfft!
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. More like I am very tired and don't have the energy to respond in detail to every mesage!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. Hey, if you're going to throw this shit at the wall to see if it sticks
You should at least have the courage of your convictions to come back and defend it, especially when you've repeatedly demanded a detailed response from people. Hypocrite much?
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Why so angry? Whenever anyone criticizes Obama, out comes the rage!?
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Rage, hah! I'm not the one on this thread yelling in caps,
Demanding that people give detailed responses. Geez, you're as bipolar and passive aggressive as the candidate that you support, ripping people a new one when you think that you can get away with it, then acting the meek, milk picked on one when you're called on your bullshit.

Pfft, I'm done with this, you're not wanting a debate or discussion, you just want to piss and run.

Weak, really weak.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. Not reacting. Refer to my response to your 11 points.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #52
185. lol
you're being really funny now
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
56. Response...
1. Hillary did not invited an anti-gay bigot and let him rant at her rallies, as far as I know.

2. No, Obama started. I refer you to the videos.

3. You didn't defend Obama's position, you simply critiqued her's.

4. We agree (miraculously)

5. I know exactly what real universal health care is (Australia/Canada/UK) so we don't need to argue semantics. But every citizen in this country needs health insurance coverage. Without that as the goal, there can be no improvement in the system. So for those who don't have coverage, who do you propose should pay for their medical treatment?

6. Disagree. She has 35 years of work experience - period. And when she was in in the white house, do you think she was baking cakes? Give me a break. She travelled to 80 countries. She worked on health care reform. Blah Blah Blah...People act like she was regular country housewife! And I defend my original statement that Obama has been sexist and ageist.

7. Exactly, it is part of the political game, but he is presenting it as though it's not. He is misleading people.

8. You are defending plagiarizm and dishonesty. You are doing exactly what he did. You don't get it.

9. I am not whining about dirty politics. Did you read my statement properly? I agree that dirty games is the norm but he claims to be above it. Again he is misleading people.

10. Well, I fall into the "young category" and he certainly did not win me over!

11. Partially agree. It goes both ways. But in my experience on this side, the anger came from your side first and we reacted!
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
33. Several things...
... but nothing compared to siding with Bush on Iraq and "national security".

It's always the lesser of two evils, and Obama is clearly the lesser.
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michaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
36. Not one thing turned me off! Hillary turned me off though! n/t
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
47. The hype, the cult (and some of his following)
For me - I did not "turn against" him. For a while - in the early part of the campaign when I was not paying that much attention - he seemed like an appealing candidate among other good candidates. Young, rather callow, inexperienced but a strong up-and-comer. I was pleased at the number of excellent choices, was not a Clinton fan and was drawn to Edwards.

When the field narrowed I saw Obama as less progressive, manipulative, ambitious and centrist. He came across as entitled and patronizing. I saw good qualities too(intelligence etc.) and saw potential.But then I saw in the debates that he was just not prepared and not impressive except in a shallow way. I started to pay attention and follow more closely. I did not like much of what I saw. I certainly did not, and do not like, some of the behavior of some of his supporters.

All of that said - I will be voting for, and actively supporting, the democratic nominee (of course).

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/domin...
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Great response and thank you for the article.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
53. #8 Collaboration between good friends does hardly qualifies as plagiary.
They share words and ideas frequently. Deval Patrick had made the suggestion to him and didn't wish to be credited with attribution.

There is a difference between the written word and the spoken word.

Politicians and orators have always recycled phrases.

Hillary's closing comments at the last debate had been uttered by her husband and Edwards previously pretty much verbatim and Paul Begala claimed original authorship of them on Steph Miller's show last week.

Have a nice day.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #53
60. Have you ever been to university?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. Yes, I have.
and sorry, this is not the same thing as plagiarism, anymore than Hillary's near word for word appropriation of Edwards' lines or her use of her husband's. Obama should have credited Patrick, and Hillary should have credited Edwards and Bill, but it does not rise to the level of plagiarism.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #64
79. Yes, I remember, you have 2 Masters
It is plagiarizm. He used the exact same phrases of another man's speech without crediting that person. That would be like you lifting a couple of sentences from another author and including them in your thesis and presenting those sentences as your own. Would you feel comfortable doing that? I would never do that nor would any academic who does not want to be accused of plagiarizm.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #79
98. And you should learn to spell
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 08:03 AM by cali
Or at least use spell check. No, it's not. And the academics who weighed in on it, said it is not comparable.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #98
110. You did not answer my question.
And I find criticisms about spelling/grammar to be very pretentious. It's so arrogant.

Would you willingly lift a couple of sentences from a textbook and include them in an essay as being your own words?

Actually, don't answer. I know your answer. You are defending Obama so of course you are going to deny the truth.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #60
78. Yes I have and I've also been plagiarized in an award winning poetry book.
When the author asked me how I wanted to be credited I flippantly joked "God didn't leave footnotes either."

That one liner as well as a bunch of others are in the book.
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desi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #78
158. If you're going to plagiarize someone
at least get it right. Even while reading it he flubbed this one. Maybe if it was up on a teleprompter?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgctsioisJg
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #158
227. Yeah, stick it to them!
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bpeale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #53
232. as my mom would say STEALING IS STEALING
the following definition of plagiarism is incontrovertible. it doesn't say you can do if you're friends. stealing is stealing when you don't give proper credit where due.

obama committed plagiarism. in college, you can be expelled for doing what he did. and he's a lawyer! he knows that!


What is Plagiarism

Many people think of plagiarism as copying another's work, or borrowing someone else's original ideas. But terms like "copying" and "borrowing" can disguise the seriousness of the offense:
According to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, to "plagiarize" means

to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own

to use (another's production) without crediting the source

to commit literary theft

to present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source.

In other words, plagiarism is an act of fraud. It involves both stealing someone else's work and lying about it afterward.

But can words and ideas really be stolen?

According to U.S. law, the answer is yes. The expression of original ideas is considered intellectual property, and is protected by copyright laws, just like original inventions. Almost all forms of expression fall under copyright protection as long as they are recorded in some way (such as a book or a computer file).

All of the following are considered plagiarism:

turning in someone else's work as your own

copying words or ideas from someone else without giving credit

failing to put a quotation in quotation marks

giving incorrect information about the source of a quotation

changing words but copying the sentence structure of a source without giving credit

copying so many words or ideas from a source that it makes up the majority of your work, whether you give credit or not (see our section on "fair use" rules)

Most cases of plagiarism can be avoided, however, by citing sources. Simply acknowledging that certain material has been borrowed, and providing your audience with the information necessary to find that source, is usually enough to prevent plagiarism.
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MagsDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
59. I don't if I have that much time.... in no particular order
1. Lies... about PAC money when he is raising it, lobbyist money that he also takes and ecourages, ads that claim his health care plan covers more people when he knows it doesn't, pretending in a debate that he barely knows Tony Rezko. I could go on and on on this one. I honestly have never seen a democrat lie so much. He lies so much he sounds like a rethug.

2. Pandering to anti-gay bigots; lack of courage to stand up for the GLBT community on the national stage. Cowardly is the best way to describe it. I don't think the dems have any business nominating a candidate that panders to bigots. Period.

3. Arrogance - I'm the only one that can get elected... blah, blah, blah. Followed closely by his wife's arrogance. Their egos alone could fill the states of Montana and both Dakotas. I didn't think it was possible to find a politician more arrogant than George Bush, but we found one.

4. Shifting stance on Iraq, depending on which way the political winds were blowing. He was against his own parties attempts to pass legislation to withdraw from Iraq before he was for it.

5. Inexperience, and complete naitivity about foreign policy. He's a rank amaetur who thinks he is brilliant. Again, shades of Bush.

6. He is winning by literally buying the caucuses. Look at his campaign spending. It couldn't be more obvious. Another rethug trick.

7. Buying into the rethug meme that social security is in crisis. If he really believes that he's an idiot. If he doesn't he's an idiot for upending the one major victory our party scored in 8 yrs of Bush rule.

8. His pledge to work with rethugs. He's either horribly naive again, or he plans on caving to them for political gain. I want an actual dem to represent me for a change.

Like I said, I could go on, but who has that much time?
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. I have company! Thanks for your detailed effort.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
66. It started with the MLK incident and then SC. That was beyond the pale
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #66
73. Yes, HIS misuse of the race card...
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
67. For me, it was the community work in the Chicago area.
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 07:33 AM by Old Crusoe
Jesus, I HATE people who try to build up communities. It suggests a heightened citizenship and sacrifice for the greater good, and I simply can't abide that.

Plus, the law review editing -- I mean for godsakes, the only people who even consider that while they're at an Ivy League school are those brainy types who read books and think. Putting someone like that in the Oval Office would jeopardize the notion that only idiot governors who blow up frogs should be president. And it flies in the face of a lot of voters' gut prejudice that they'd love more than just about anything to have a beer with an idiot governor who blew up frogs when he was a kid and soverign nations when he was an adult.

I also hate presidential candidates who allude to historical events. Obama does this all the time and it makes him even MORE hateable, IMO. Most Americans of the We Love Candidates Who Blow Up Frogs demographic will tell you that History is a boring subject and has no bearing whatsoever on their real lives, which quite clearly enough involves watching AMERICAN IDOL and not subscribing to a newspaper and the occasional expensive-but-worth-it monster truck rally. So this editing/writing thing of Obama's is really a repellent component of his candidacy because who needs to sit through all that historical crap AGAIN. It was bad enough in hgh school.

Listen, I could go on. But you get the idea. The negatives just accumulate with this guy. It's embarrassing, really.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #67
75. Presenting unrelated positive data is not a defense against the 11 points I outlined.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. That might suggest to you that the tone of your 11-point assault isn't
registering with all observers.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. Well of course it's not going to register with Obama supporters. Do you think I am stupid?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. You'll have to decide for yourself if you've contributed much to the
dialogue.


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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #81
84. It's really just expressing an opinion.
All people have a need to feel heard, regardless of whether anyone actually listens or not.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:51 AM
Original message
The forum encourages expression. Would that it also were
fairly undertaken.


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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
68. Thank-you
...for your carefully researched reasoning. And for the civility of your tone. You have hit on and articulated many of my issues with Obama. Like you - they were not there at the start but grew as I paid closer attention.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #68
82. The Irony...
And isn't it telling, that you note how CIVIL the tone of my statement was and yet the Obama supporters view my post as bitter, angry smear. They are acting out #11 in their responses to my OP.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #82
157. It is rather ironic
I did not find your tone bitter at least. Disappointed, yes.

It makes me wonder whether some of the posters realize that Clinton and Obama are both POLITICIANS.

And Obama the politician does not appeal to me as much as many of the other candidates we had this political season. The fact that I am not in the majority with this view is disappointing but it will not be the first time I have not gone with the crowd. He will be better than Bush. But then so would a potted aspidistra.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
71. Muslim turban flag-lapel cocaine black/not-black enough cult.
You have one more OP today. Choose it well.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #71
87. 2 actually
As a gay white man with a black boyfriend I think have a pretty good grasp of what it it's like to live the minority experience. So your suggestions for the topics I may choose to write about are completely ridiculous and insensitive. Please refer to the 11 points I communicated in a very civil tone.
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lse7581011 Donating Member (948 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
76. Absolutely Nothing!
That's why I'm voting for him!
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #76
88. Ok. Good luck.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
83. Add a comma...and What turned you off, Obama?
he would say..."Let me count the ways" (that HRC's campaign people have been "naughty") :)
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #83
89. Cmon, his campaign team are as equally as shameless! It's politics. And neither party is guilt free.
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6th Borough Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
86. Is this a TPM direct from Clinton HQ? n/t
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. From the headquarters of Truth & Reality!
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #90
106. It's a new hit show on Fox TV!!!


Truth & Reality!!
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #106
111. That's a terrible pic of Murdoch!
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LowerManhattanite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #111
152. Amen!
Rose pink is not a color that works for him!
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #86
91. But she'd be wise to raise some of my points in tonight's debate
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #91
177. If Hillary was stupid enough to "raise some of your points
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 10:18 AM by Window
in tonight's debate," she would not only be booed and/or laughed off the damned stage, her political career would come to a definitive end.


:rofl:
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jean627 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
92. So much hate about one person?
"I began to question once again how "unifying" Obama really was if significant numbers of his followers believe it's ok to infect the Internet with so much hate about one person. That's a worry."

Don't you think it is a bigger worry that both Hill and Bill have not only been viciously attacking Obama but also attacking his supporters, calling them "delusional", calling Obama's vision and hopes and aspirations for America a "fairy tale", that instead of expressing hope for our future she is deriding an mocking Obama and his supporters for expressing hope?

How "unifying" is Hillary to do these things herself, never mind her supporters, to Obama and his supporters?

I have lost total respect for the Clintons and could NEVER support their slash and burn/Karl Rove style campaign tactics. IMO, they are just not being "Democratic", they are playing GOP dirty tricks games.

I want no part of the Clinton's destructive style for my country. IMO, we've had enough slash, burn, smear...After the last 28 years of a dark cloud over our country, a good shot of "HOPE" can't hurt, it could even help.

Nope, the Clintons are not "unifying" us, they are trying to divide and denigrate us because we don't all support them, because she didn't get a "coronation" on Feb 5th, as she has made clear that she expected.


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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #92
100. Ok. Thanks for your response.
I do not regard Obama as a great unifier if so many people do not support him...

And I think it's fair to critique Obama's vision if one does not agree with it...

Idealism generally is a fairytale.

And yet when it comes to heath insurance coverage for all citizens, he doesn't want to pursue that fairtyale.

Again, this is politics. We should not be surprised at the tactics of either candidate.
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jean627 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #100
133. And, last but not least
Do we want to hear 4 to 8 more years of, in mocking voice

"I did not have sex with that woman"?

My nephew, a Republican, whom I had not seen in several years, came to visit.

Almost the first words out of his mouth - I see you people are trying to get ole "I did not have sex with that woman" back into the White House.

IMO, the Clintons need to retire with what little dignity they have left. IMO, Hillary can add Bill Clinton to the list of those who helped kill her "coronation".

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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #133
136. Sorry, that's really lame.
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jean627 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #133
140. Just want to add one more thing
Some of us don't see the humor when she makes a joke of what this country went thru because of the careless "sexploits" of her husband.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #140
142. Well we will hold you forever accountable for the mistakes of YOUR partner. Sound ridiculous?
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jean627 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #142
192. i am not holding her accountable
for Bill's mistakes.

Yes, I agree, it's lame. I also think that it is lame of her to now make jokes about it. IMO, it's damned near as lame as Bush making jokes about WMD.

I would be more impressed if she would say something like 'that was a dark time in our history. My husband and I have solved our issues and have changed our lives. He has gotten help for his problem, changed his ways, repented and I have forgiven him'.

After the Hell they put this country and their supporters at that time thru, don't you think that's the least they owe us now? We don't need the humiliation of more Clinton sexpacade jokes.

Just my opinion, as someone who has tried to defend his actions.

After her blase' and arrogant attitude in this campaign, I don't defend it any more. Never will again.

I despise Ann Coulter but to borrow from her horrendous attacks on the 9/11 widows, 'Hillary seems to be enjoying her husband's infidelity and humiliation'.



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jean627 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #192
194. And, yes
You can hold me responsible for the mistakes of my husband. He was a wonderful human being, man, husband, and father.

In other words, He was NOTHING like Bill Clinton.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
93. Good points...
and I agree with all of them, BUT the thing that really put me off was watching him give a speech one night. It was a great speech...I called and commented to my dad about it, but I realized he hadn't said anything. His message of hope and unity and passing the torch was recycled george bush talking points, Obama just talks prettier. I made it a point to watch more of his speeches and noticed the same thing. Then I noticed the audience and what I saw reminded me of what I have seen at evangelical meetings, some I've seen in person. People enthralled with a man and putting him on a pedestal. I don't now nor have I ever been a cult of personality type follower. I never understood girls screaming and tearing their hair at an Elvis or Beatle concert. I've never understood the blind allegiance to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

Obama has done and said things that if done by a republican would have caused an uproar at D.U......his religious beliefs are not and should not be for political fodder but he inserted them into the campaign for his own political purposes, and that I find repugnant.

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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #93
102. Good points.
I find watching his speeches no different from watching those evangelical preacher's on Sunday TV in the huge audiotoriums. There is NIL difference. And he is able to raise the cash just like the preachers can to!
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
94. muzza, you have him pegged to a tee. this man is as disengenuous as disengenuous is ... just like
the man in the white house he is trying to replace. no wonder GWB is so sure they will retain power in 2008. obama is his carbon copy ...

and with all of this obama glorification taking hold in this country you have to wonder did the country ever hate GWB and all the crimes against the nation and other nations that he committed?

they are lauding a man who is just like the man they once said they hated.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #94
103. Yeah, a more idealistic reincarnatoin of the same thing...
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the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
95. His dopey response to the State of the Union
And I paraphrase:

The Bush administrations answer to our problems has been tax cuts that we don't need, and haven't asked for...followed shortly and without a trace of irony with: What this country needs is MIDDLE CLASS TAX CUTS.

It was like listening to a perverse mixture of Reagan and Mondale. The old GOP canard of middle class tax cuts. Lets face it, everyone in this country is middle class, at least by their own estimation.

To me, Obama is an empty suit who recites poetry. He reminds me of a republican.

But his skin IS dark.

Congratulations president McCain. The democrats couldn't make it any easier, but if they could, they would.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #95
105. Yes, it will a GOP landslide if Obama wins this...
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #105
197. Any empirical evidence to support that assertion?
I won't hold my breath.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
96. When he campaigns against "lobbtyist money " and his Top Adviser is a Lobbyist for Monsanto, Phrma,
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #96
112. Precisely!
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carlotta Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
97. The contrast between the slick, mass-marketed Obama
that you see in speeches and rallies, as opposed to the off script Obama. When he's not standing in a huge crowd, surrounded by cheering crowds and fainting ladies, he really isn't very impressive. That press conference the other day really drove that home. He has a hard time being coherent and convincing when he's not prepared. It makes me wonder if he isn't just another manufactured candidate, test-marketed, dressed up and sent out to play to consumers.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #97
113. Absolutely that's what he is - a product marketed to the masses.
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IowaGirl Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #97
183. I guess this really points up how important.....
it is for him to be sure to bus in a lot of supporters for his speeches so he is "staged" to impress.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #183
208. That's more marketing
The exploitation of herd behavior is actually a marketing tool. Peer-to-peer advertising is another technique. Humans are social animals, and we're much more willing to support a product if everyone else we know is. If a certain product is seen to be popular, shoppers are likely to choose it as well. That's why we see so many ads that brag that "Toyota is the most popular 4-door", etc. The Obama campaign has spent a ton of money in caucus states hiring hundreds (thousands?) of GOTV activists - these people attend the rallies, get their friends & families to volunteer, spread the buzz, and attend the caucuses w/loud & enthusiastic support. People start thinking that Obama must be something special to get all these sudden supporters. Pretty soon a buzz is created, and everyone seems to be for Obama. And people start getting converted. Because we tend to go w/the herd - and the Obama camapaign has been very good at using both herd behavior & "peer-to-peer" marketing to create this effect.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #208
228. Excellent analysis. Thank you for your insight.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
99. Good and thoughtful post. I know part 2 is coming and I look forward to it.
I really hated those Las Vegas phone calls. And the fliers telling republican and independents to become a democrat for a day so and vote not for Obama but against Hillary. Plenty of dirty tricks on Obama's side. He just flies under the radar because of his followers. They're in denial about his dirty tricks. The last paragraph describes many of them well.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #99
114. Indeed. It's dirty ticks galore but denied to the grave!
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Charogne Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
101. His wink & nod to continue the fine tradition of Imperialism.
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
104. Obama is a huge turn off for many reasons
I loathe his preachy style of speech. He is great at reading a speech writer's words
off a teleprompter and an embarrassing stuttering mess when he must think on his feet

That whole "create a kingdom on earth" rhetoric is gag worthy


He has accomplished nothing and stands for everything. In other words all fluff and no stuff


The cult-like following is like The American Idol phenomenon. Sheep in a trance


Obama lived abroad as a child. He touts that as foreign policy experience and the fact that his

followers swallow that is sick and laughable

He parrots Clinton's positions as his own


The fact that he used "present" votes to fence straddle and his "oops I pushed the wrong button"

excuse shows his lousy character


I agree with your assessment and I have many more but I'm off to work :toast:
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #104
117. Agreed!
Interesting that Obama thinks that living abroad as a child gives him foreign policy experience, but Hillary living in the White House for 8 years and working on various governmental projects did not give her any presidential experience. His hypocrisy and opportunism is legendary!
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #104
151. That's a strong list
The "preachy" style is going to wear very thin long before November.
Do you think he believes his own hype? Is it genuine/ sincere? Or manipulation?

Either way I find it rather off-putting.

I know he is a politician and has to do whatever to win votes but I find that patronizing. I do understand I am in a minority with this. At least for now.

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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
107. I was never turned on by him in the first place.
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Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #107
115. Neither was I.
I don't get it.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #115
119. Glad I have some friends in here.
The more aggressive of Obama's defenders in here are really, really painful and hard to tolerate. Such arrogance, dismissiveness and rudeness.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #107
118. You didn't miss out!
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IowaGirl Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #107
212. When I heard.....
him speak the first time at the dem con, I thought he sounded very interesting and I thought I wanted to keep my eye on him. However, I just don't feel he has panned out upon further examination.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
108. i was never turned off, but i was never turned on either.
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 08:10 AM by LibFromWV
I don't buy all the breathe hope-wish change bullshit. WISHING and HOPING and BREATHING is not going to change one damn repuke.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #108
120. Exactly!
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
109. And remember Bush ran as the unifier!
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #109
121. Yeah, what a joke.
The irony is that it's those who don't claim to be able to unify who are the ones mostly to be able to unify.

Those who claim (shout/preach) that they can unify, are the ones least likely to be able to unify!

Real leaders don't TELL you how they will lead, they just do it.

Yes, actions speak louder than words.

Wake up America. Before it's too late!
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
116. Where will all these nasty people be when Obama is President? Not on DU, I imagine. Buh bye.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #116
122. You don't get it
Criticism does not equal nastiness. In the 11 points I outlined, where have I been "nasty"? I have written my post in a civil tone without resorting to foul language and hysteria. But still, Obama supporters can't cope with it.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #122
123. K Gardner? She gets it better than most, dude.
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 08:35 AM by Old Crusoe
You might want to read HER posts on DU instead of spamming your own.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #123
125. What the?
Referring to Clinton supporters as "these nasty people"...Ok...Sorry if I don't accept it. Why would I want to read the posts of a person that refers to a group I belong to in such terms?!
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #125
127. Reading for content is still in vogue in many colleges.
You might give it a whirl.

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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #122
132. How will you cope with President Barack Obama? If you haven't considered that, then you're the one
who doesn't "get it".
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jean627 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #122
198. I can cope with it.
It's Bill and Hill's nastiness on the stump that I can't cope with.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
124. "valid basis for why many people do not support him"
Seems to be that anywhere he spends some time, people support him in huge numbers.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #124
126. 50% of votes is good. It's not great.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #126
129. Everywhere he goes, he pulls up from 20 points back...
...to handily beat his opponent. The more people know him, the more they like him.
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Tveil Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
128. Nothing...Hillary sucks
oem
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #128
137. Back at ya!
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desi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #128
149. That you Barack?
Michelle maybe?
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
130. donnie mcclurkin. implying bill was racist. and his followers.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #130
138. 3/3 !!!
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #130
179. Even South Carolina *whites* (rightfully) blamed the racial fracas on the Clintons.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
135. Your turned off by Obama's hypocrisy but not Clinton's? um, OK....nt
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #135
139. She doesn't present herself as the next savior!
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
141. Are you going to be sending this post to free republic?
So they can use it as ammunition in the GE?
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #141
143. Are you joking or are you serious?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #143
146. My point is if you can't build up your candidate
Don't help the freepers by tearing down the other Democrat. One of these two are going to be our nominee and we should make every effort not to hurt them.
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #146
148. Fair enough
But are you as equally outspoken on the topics that critique Hillary Clinton?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #148
150. Yes- Thank you for asking
I am outspoken in the need to maintain a positive discourse. I am outspoken in the need not to rip Democrats. I am outspoken in our need to focus on the real enemy. Perhaps Muzza, you so my highly rated post pointing out how Drudge played DU for fools.
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KLee Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
144. Hillary?? Yes!! Obama?? Yes!!.....McCain?? NO!! Nader?? NO!!
Either Democrat will have my vote in November, regardless of who my current favorite is.

The last 7 years is reason enough for me!
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #144
145. Sounds reasonable! Thanks for being fair-minded!
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Muzza Donating Member (397 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #144
147. Sounds reasonable! Thanks for being fair-minded!
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
153. His Supporters on DU!
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
156. #11 being relatively new to this forum
and jumping in the middle, originally as a fan of neither Obama or Hillary, I have seen just as much or more vitriol from Hillary supporters here.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
159. All that winning.
I just can't support it; it's not the Democratic way.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #159
162.  : )
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
163. Nothing has turned me off Obama. I just happen to feel that Hillary
comes closer to representing my views. She was not my first choice, however, and if she is not the eventual Democratic nominee, I will vote for Obama without hesitation.
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IowaGirl Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
165. Nervous about people who seem too good to be true.
In my 55 years of life, I've found that people who seem too good to be true usually are. I get really nervous when people start running around like the citizens of River City in "The Music Man." Professor Harold Hill could mesmerize the crowds with his rhetoric but all he really had was a "think" system. While that story ended happily ever after, this is real life. I am not saying that Obama is not a good person. I just don't feel that he's been on the scene long enough to really know if he can pull off what thinks he can. I do know what it is like to be disillusioned. Many years ago, I was kinda revved up by a guy named McGovern along with a lot of other young people. It was heartbreaking to see Nixon re-elected. We really have to take our best shot with this election and Obama hasn't been around long enough to prove he is the best shot. I definitely thought I would consider him in the future but the info you present is thought-provoking.
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carlotta Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #165
167. "Oh, we've got troubles"
Great post. I'm gonna be humming that tune all day.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #165
200. Love that metaphor
It does seem a little bit like the Music Man. Or the Simpsons. Sing it: "monorail, monorail, MONORAIL!"
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
166. You're very proud to be an American, aren't you?
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #166
168. I'm glad someone else sees it. n/t
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
169. All the above.
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 10:06 AM by seasonedblue
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Mezzo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
172. His Crazy Eyed Supporters.
They act like a question is an attack. They answer question about Barack Obama with an attack on Hillary Clinton. In short, they act like Republicans. And since Obama himself has signaled that he is open to privatizing schools, it seems he is too.

But the reason myself and everyone in my family is not voting for him in the general is the Harry and Louise fliers. No, I'm not kidding. He says he doesn't want us to act like the Democratic Party of the 90's, and then turns around and acts like a REPUBLICAN from the 1990's. For me, my mother, my sisters, brother (closet repig anywa, I'm just being honest) all MY AUNTS and uncles in Columbus (and we're a pretty big Irish Catholic family) that was dirty beyond the pale. Truly. And no apology either. They're acting like Republicans.

He lost my father with the Reagan was the only one offering ideas thing. Yes, he saw it in its entire context (it's on the DVR right now) and what he said, and what he was trying to say was a direct hit to anyone offering ideas in the 1980's. Although I disagreed that should take away my dad's support (he is a lifelong union teamster) NOTHING can change his mind now. He said he's sooner vote for McCain, and he's never voted a repig in his lifetime. But given a choice between a Republican and a Republican, a Republican will win each and every time.

I don't think they know how badly the Harry and Louise thing really is. I started out Obama (who didn't?) went to Edwards pretty soon after I started looking at all of them, did not waiver until he dropped out, and then was leaning back to Obama. Then I saw how nutty, and I do mean fucking nutty these people are acting, and went Hillary.

Harry and Louise ruined it for the general for me too. Unless there is an APOLOGY and I mean it. Some of us were in college and grad school in the nineties and know what a struggle health care was. Harry and Louise was a vicious ad by the health care industry to stop a better plan for the American people. Say what you want, but at the time, it was a better plan for the American People. The idea that they used that dirty ad is reason enough not to vote for him. Ever.


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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #172
174. "I started out Obama (who didn't?)" Most of the country didn't, but rather started out Clinton.
They then switched when they grew tired of her incompetent negative campaign.
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Mezzo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #174
181. as we grew tired of his Dishonest Negative Campaign.
but his people aren't incompetent, they're Republicans, or at least they certainly act like it.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #181
182. That's nice. But a net 20% of the nation has switched from Clinton to Obama.
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Mezzo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #182
190. ...20% so far. How many superdelegates need to see this behavior?
you think they're not watching? My uncle is one, and the talk ain't good.
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IowaGirl Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #172
211. Can I adopt your family???
Sounds like a quality gene pool to me! :yourock:
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
175. The comment by Clinton WAS idiotic
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 10:20 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
He implied that the only reason people in S. Carolina voted for him was because he was black. As if every black man is the same, and every african american cannot see past race.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
176. I have about as much"hope"in Obama's promised "change"as I did in Bush's"compassionate conservatism"
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #176
186. So true. "Same Campane, Different Name".....
and the sheeple are on both sides now.


FYI....I know how to spell campaign.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
178. Good points
For me, it's mostly the marketing. We respond to marketing campaigns like good, well-trained consumers. Whether the new "product" is an Iphone or a presidential candidate, the techniques are largely the same. Snazzy graphics, cool designs, uplifiting slogans and emotional appeal. Buying this product will make you feel all warm & fuzzy; it'll make your life complete. Except when you get the actual product, it's not as advertised. The new VW Bug or XBox actually didn't change your life, or make you feel complete. And all the marketing glow just evaporates, sending us searching for the next big hit.

Obama's campaign has been managed by Axelrod, who has his own marketing/media company, and he's incorporated these same techniques into Obama's campaign. From the get-go, they created a snazzy, expensive, professional website; a famous graphic artist designed the Obama "logo" (that logo is genius); and Axelrod created (or recycled) a catchy advertising slogan (Yes We Can!). Altogether, this marketing campaign is aimed at consumers' deepest desires & wants (hope, change, peace), w/the promise that this candidate can fulfill those needs. All this marketing sends the powerful message - Vote Obama, it'll make you feel all warm & fuzzy, hopeful & changeful; it'll make your life complete. Except when you get the actual President, it's not as advertised.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
184. His timid, corporate centrist record and policies. Also, his hateful followers.
Some are mean as hell and more brainwashed than $cientologists.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
187. Nothing.
However, the level of animosity and hatred on this and other sites has led me to snap loudly at anyone in the real world who wants to talk to me about either candidate. "No fucking politics, asshole!"

Thanks, kids.

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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
188. THese posts make me support Obama even more! keep em rollin!!!1
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jean627 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #188
195. Me too...NT
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
189. If you're a firm believer in Universal Healthcare
Why do you support Hillary?
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
191. Feb 24th..
nt
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
193. The pandering to the Fundis, the Preaching, the God talk
He compared his campaign to a "hymn that will heal our nation"...
Remember when we were all oposed to Bush's Fundi code talk?
I do, because I still am.
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DemCam Donating Member (911 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #193
229. I grew up going to tent revivals...and B O is hair-raising
The tone, the cadence, the words all remind me of my evangelist
uncles. I want as far away from it as I can get. While I have
no problem with religion in general...I don't want anyone to save
my soul or tell me it needs to be saved.

Been there, done that...can't get fooled again. :)
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
196. His voting to ban the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas
What an arrogant bastard! Who is he to say that non-combatants shouldn't be indiscriminately maimed and murdered?!

Good thing Hillary Clinton joined with the Republicans to make sure that we can continue cluster-bombing civilians to our hearts' content. Way to take a principled stand, HRC!

:sarcasm:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
202. LOL

"1. Anti-gay politics "

Hmm, yes. I'm sure you're very concerned about the GLBT community.

"2. South Carolina - Accusing Hillary Clinton, or alluding to the possibility, that she and her husband were racist."

You know, if you're going to disparage MLK, and honor LBJ, and accuse Obama of "shucking and jiving," you've pretty much stuck your foot in your mouth. And that may explain why Clinton just apologized for it at the black state of the union.

"3. Iraq War position"

And I think this cuts right to the chase. There were those of us who supported the war at the beginning, and there were those of us who were against it from the beginning. And although nobody wants to admit it, I think we all know which side of the line we're on now.

"4. Hypocrisy in relation to special interests "

Obama's got the record for small, independent donations. Corporate donations are a drop in the bucket.

"5. Criticism of Clinton's health care agenda and policy of mandating health insurance "

Hillary can dish it out but can't take it, eh? She's was criticizing Obama's plan before he turned it around. Frankly I see no problem with candidate attack the shortcomings of either.

"6. Sexism & ageism towards Hillary Clinton:"

You just complained (falsely) about Obama calling Clinton a racist. Now Obama's a sexist? Who are you trying to kid? Putting it bluntly, the Obama and Clinton camps don't differ a bit when it comes to sexism or women's issue. For every bizarre rant we've seen here about Clinton and menopause, there's been another attacking Obama's mother as a teen mother, a single mother, or being "promiscuous" for sleeping with so many foriegners.

"7. Arrogantly dismissing all political achievements of others before his arrival on the national political stage: Sure, there's plenty to fault about politics in Washington but this line that "all good ideas die in Washington" is complete and utter nonsense So how did the USA get to where it is today in 2008? Not one good idea became a practical success in Washington before 2008?

This doesn't even make any sense. This country's gone backwards over the last eight years, thanks in part to Hillary Clinton.

"8. Dishonesty about use of Deval Patrick's speech material & completely dismissing the importance of crediting sources when using other people's material. What kind of message does this send to people? That it's ok to plagiarize, as long as it's from a buddy? To me this completely called into question Obama's character and ethics.

9. Hypocrisy - claiming to be above "dirty politics" but being more than willing to engage in it when the cameras aren't rolling: eg South Carolina hysteria, accusing Clinton of plagiarism after the Texas debate, the "harry & sally" healthcare mailer. I understand that politics can involve smear and dirty games, and fair enough, but don't claim you are above it and then keep doing it! That's called hypocrisy - saying one thing and doing another!"

I'm trying to figure out how these two arguments don't contradict each other. Using throw-away one liners as rhetorical arguments is common place in politics, and there's nothing wrong with it. Ask Hillary Clinton, she does it all the time. So it's hard to believe you have a problem with hypocrisy.

"10. Empty promises - It worries me that Obama has "drawn in" new voters to the voting process with his "yes we can" message. How despondent and disillusioned will they feel when they come down from the clouds and realize that achieving monumental changes isn't as easy as chanting "yes we can"? I am a reasonable and open-minded person who is open to an engaging and connecting a charismatic style of leadership."

If you were reasonable and open-minded, you'd have listened to at least one of his speeches. He's never said it would be easy, quite the opposite.

"11. Behavior of SOME (not all) Obama fans."

Frankly, given your OP, you're in no position to be complaining about anybody else's poor behaviour.






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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
204. Does her campaign pay well?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
205. That he is Somalian
according to another despicable smear from Hillary's campaign.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
206. This video really bugs me about him....
Remember Rudy G. and the press conference phone calls?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndl57E7UJno
I will vote for Obama come November but will probably not stump for him unless he can convince me he is sincere in making real change.
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CyberPieHole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
209. McClurkin. n/t
:kick: and rec

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Skoods Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
213. I agree
with you on some of those points. Most notably the Iraq War issue. If he were in the Senate he would have caved in and voted for the war just like all our other sissy Dems.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
214. Everything you said is why I don't support him.
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 01:14 PM by AX10
The "Harry and Louise" mailer is a hit below the belt.
It shows who he really is.

"7. Arrogantly dismissing all political achievements of others before his arrival on the national political stage: Sure, there's plenty to fault about politics in Washington but this line that "all good ideas die in Washington" is complete and utter nonsense. So how did the USA get to where it is today in 2008? Not one good idea became a practical success in Washington before 2008? Give me a break. This notion that Obama's arrival signals a new era in politics is one which I completely dispute & dismiss."
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
218. His support for nuclear power.
But mostly his arrogant attitude.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
221. Starting a generational war.
Telling early boomers and pre boomers to turn a page, get over themselves, stop fighting the old battles...

Those early and pre boomers and those battles are the reason he was able to go to college, much less run for President. He is a fucking ignorant ingrate.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #221
234. Obama is nothing but an ingrate.
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bpeale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #221
237. hallelujah! this boomer will not vote for him for exactly that comment
arrogant asshole ingrate! thanks. loved your post DURHAM D.
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
222. Please explain to me how in the wildest of ideas you can blame
south carolina on Obama?? The last time I looked that shit came from the Clintons not from him. Geesh.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
223. Mandating that consumers (not citizens, not any more) purchase private health insurance...
Is a fascist approach to health care, i.e. the approach Mussolini and
Franco would take.

It is the opposite of universal health coverage and has nothing to do with it.

To paraphrase the Matrix, the existence of a mandate implies that someone may choose to disobey that mandate. A few someones leads to many someones, demonstrating that a mandate does NOT = a franchise.

It is like solving the problem of homelessness by mandating home-ownership (another thing I'm sure many white Clintonites would love to do, Bill Clinton tried it in cities like New Orleans). It is like solving the problem of hunger by mandating universal cake consumption.

Which just goes to illustrate that prosecuting people for refusing to buy into our existing, broken for-profit health insurance system is the absolute opposite of advocating for universal single-payer health coverage. As any doctor or researcher (I know several) could tell you.
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bpeale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
224. what a well thought out, well researched, well documented post!
there is something about obama, its just a feeling i can't quite put my finger on, that just tells me that he is bad news. i am sure it will crystallize before the election. they have been very careful not to let any information out about the real obama, that everything i read is very suspect to me. there's just this feeling that he is not what he seems that makes me cringe at supporting him. i can't vote for him and i can't support him either. does that make sense?
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #224
233. He is too good to be true.
Something is wrong with him on many levels.
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DemCam Donating Member (911 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
225. Muzza...i think i love ya. So many reasons to say no.
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
230. All these turn me off, but they big deciding factor is appeasement
We don't need "post-partisanship" (whatever that will mean, exactly) until we've cleaned up some pretty major messes. Now is the time to stand strong without compromise and rebuild some kind of vision of a society where people aren't marginalized, improvrished, denied health care, and so on. I don't want to reach out to the right wing in this country, to be quite frank, until the right wing of this country has done some reflecting and rebuilding what it broke.

Okay, #9 really bothers me. I can get over it, and it's not as important as the appeasement, but #9 ticks me off. I expect a lot of the above from politicians, so it's not that it's unusual -- what's galling is the candidate who pretends he's too pure for that kind of thing.
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against all enemies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
231. Support the nominee or go home. It's too late and you're a nobody.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
235. to be continued... bwahahahahaha!!!
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
236. The treachery of Obama's alliance with the right-wing machine
Using those perceptions thusly formed against a Democrat.

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wakemeupwhenitsover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
238. Locking.
The OP is no longer with us.

best,
wakemeupwhenitsover
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