Are these people elitists?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

Poll question: Are these people elitists?

Here's me, my dog, and a couple friends on top of Mt. Rose Knob north of Tahoe some years back. We spent a couple hours hiking up, had lunch, and then about 20 minutes skiing down.

True, no one in this picture made more than $15,000 a year at the time, but did't we become elitists just for participating in an elitist sport like skiing? And look at that view! Wasn't that an insult to everyone who has to live in the inner-city and doesn't get to enjoy a view like that?


By the way, that's not me in the foreground, that's my dog's ass. I'm on the left.

Poll result (77 votes)
Yes, and I would never vote for any of you for President	(23 votes, 30%)	Vote
No, it that's what you do for fun, more power to you.	(34 votes, 44%)	Vote
Basta! you've made your point already, drop it.	(16 votes, 21%)	Vote
Other (please explain)	(4 votes, 5%)	Vote

[rockymountaindem]

1. Did you have little doggie skis?

If not, how did the dog get down?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

6. Nope,

almost anything I could do on skis, he could do on his own....



Rasta, 1991-2002, RIP

[JohnLocke]

44. Then you're not elitist.

No doggie skis, no elitism.

[Piperay]

61. WOW...

I was wondering too how the dog got down, looks like he did just fine.

[Bread and Circus]

74. That's a fine dog, what a great companion

Though it makes me said dogs lives are so short.

[bigtree]

2. Basta! you've made your point already, drop it.

Just kidding! I'm for any ski bum, rink rat, or hog lover who has a big "D" after their name.

[wtmusic]

3. That's not a dog, that's a goat

And I suppose you think anyone can afford a goat that skis?

[soleft]

4. No, they're Italian

[Old and In the Way]

5. You lucky ski bum!

Great views. As a DH/CC skier for 35 years, I can relate. My hiking/skiing is limited to a stint Tuckerman's Ravine on Mt. Washington, NH, 20 years ago.

Sad to say, I spent more time tumbling than skiing that day. Perhaps a little too much wine?

[nomaco-10]

7. Only if ....

when you got down to the bottom, you retired to a private chalet with marble tubs, a hot tub that seats twenty, a personal chef, a stylist and a bath butler.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

8. So what you are saying is NO.

Skiing doesn't make someone elitist, being rich makes someone elitist -- at least that's how I interpret your comment.


Of course, in reality, rich and elitist mean two different things.

Main Entry: elit·ism
Pronunciation: A-'lE-"ti-z&m, i-, E-
Function: noun
1 : leadership or rule by an elite
2 : the selectivity of the elite; especially : SNOBBERY 1 <elitism in choosing new members>
3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&v...

Hmm, according to Webster's, it's not someone's wealth that determines whether they are practicing elitism. (Nor is it determined by their recreational choices.)

[nomaco-10]

9. No, it just put me in mind of another ......

very wealthy democratic politician that uses his free time by going to third world countries to help install irrigation systems and build housing for the people that live in squalor, then comes home and drives nails all day for Habitat for Humanity all the while building a center for PEACE.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

10. It's a yes or no question, and you answered NO

Your off-topic protestations to the contrary are just that - off-topic.

[nomaco-10]

11. Why author a topic and demand a Yes or No.....

answer when the very purpose of a democratic message board is to encourage discussion and debate. Very interesting....

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. I didn't demand anything,

I pointed out that your answer:

" Only if ....
when you got down to the bottom, you retired to a private chalet with marble tubs, a hot tub that seats twenty, a personal chef, a stylist and a bath butler."


While meant to be some type of attack on John Kerry, the Democratic nominee, was actually just a juvenile way to say "NO" and an unsuccessful attempt to appear clever.


I encourage you to try again to say something clever while attacking George Bush's opponent. Go for it.

[nomaco-10]

13. Thank you for thinking I'm clever, I'm flattered.....

I never even mentioned John Kerry. I thought the topic was about elitism and how it related to skiing. Gee, how'd you make that leap?

BTW, great dog.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

15. LOL

ok, you have displayed your sincerity and honesty for all to see.

[Dr Fate]

14. I've skied my whole life...

...never owned a pair, only rented.

I believe a day pass was about $75 bucks last time I was in Utah.

The only people saying this are bongo-beating neer-do-wells!!

[redqueen]

16. Wow

With this kind of activism, Kerry will be a shoo-in!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. No worry, this pic is from '93, I've been wearing my hairshirt ever since

[redqueen]

18. No, I didn't mean your clothes, nor your recreational activities

I meant your penchant for battling other progressives on DU over nonsense.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. So posting this poll question is a case of 'battling other progressives'?

Perhaps if it's nonsense that's not worth your time, you shouldn't spend your time on it.

Or on the other hand, maybe you think the best use of your time is to insult me.

Perhaps you believe the best use of your time and energy is to criticize how I spend my time and energy. That would be your choice and your right.

It would be pathetic and stupid if you believed that, but it certainly would be your right.

[redqueen]

30. Yes

What did you post it for? Did I say it wasn't worth my time? FWIW I think it's a waste of a Kerry supporter's time.

And where did I insult you?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

32. Why did I post it?

I posted this poll because I wanted to know how many of the respondents would say that my friends and I were elitists, how many would say we weren't, how many would say 'basta', and how many would give another opinion. Also, it gave me an excuse to post a picture that I like.




"And where did I insult you?"

I'm positive that if I spent the rest of the day explaining what is insulting and rude about your comments, I would indeed be wasting my time, since I fully believe you already know - and if you don't, you never will.


But I do think it interesting that you feel qualified to pass judgement on other people.

How did you achieve your position of moral and intellectual superiority?

[flpoljunkie]

20. That's an incredible view! Thanks for sharing it!

Am glad you cleared which direction your dog was facing; was having real trouble trying to figure out what kind of dog you have!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. I wonder if Bush ever hiked up a mountain to see a view like that.

I find it amazing that Kerry has actually been attacked at DU for having a genuine love of nature.

I see Kerry in the high mountains I love so much and I know it's time we had a real environmentalist in the White House.

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. I voted other because you aren't an elitist...but I do question spending

money on a vacation if you were only making $15,000. Skis, even rented, are expensive as are lift fees etc. When I was making $15,000, which I still would be if it wasn't for MrGrumpy, my vacation was a weekend at a friend's house 15 miles away on 5 acres...

Different strokes I guess.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. We weren't on vacation.

We were poor ski bums. It was just a day off from work.

[ScreamingMeemie]

24. Borrowed skis???

Truly it doesn't bother me.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

25. What are you talking about?

I didn't own a car at the time, but I did own skis.


I don't really care what bothers you and what doesn't - actually it might be more entertaining if it did bother you - but you clearly are laboring under the misapprehension that only rich people ski.

[ScreamingMeemie]

26. I am talking about the fact that skis are expensive. Very expensive.

Not something I could buy without a guilty conscience. But, people are people. I don't vote for someone based on whether they ski or not. Even though I think it is a sport for the upper middle class to wealthy. It's my opinion. Therefore I voted other in your poll, because the poll itself and the picture mean zippo in terms of politics to me.

In other words....I'm JOKING.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

27. Just saying "I'm joking"

doesn't turn a dumb comment into an intelligent one.



" I am talking about the fact that skis are expensive. Very expensive.
Not something I could buy without a guilty conscience. "


Speaking of elitism, that is one of the most self-righteous elitist comments I've ever seen here. Since you would have a guilty conscience if you bought a pair of skis, that means everyone who buys skis and doesn't, hasn't reached your exalted state of moral purity?

[ScreamingMeemie]

28. I think it's a smart comment. If it wasn't it wouldn't have bothered you.

I believe it's allowed to have an opinion. Now you have mine. I gave it, because you asked for it.

Have a great day!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. Yes, you are allowed to have an opinion

even if it is a conceited, smug, and self-righteous one.


As a matter of fact, I'd love to hear more of your insults disguised as jokes, excused as 'just your opinion'.

Go for it!

[Dr Fate]

37. I RENT my skis!!!

Money cant buy hapiness, but you CAN rent it!!!

Often after an idle day of sking, I relax in my Presidential Suite, supping a glass of aged champagne and wondering: "What are the poor people doing right now..."

[July]

118. To be fair to F, though, he did mention that he didn't own a car.

So he chose to use his money to buy skis, which probably cost significantly less than most cars (except for a real beater). Doesn't seem extravagant (to me) to buy skis when one doesn't have the initial or ongoing costs of a car (a more expensive item that people of all classes buy).

[Robb]

124. We often talk in Colorado

of the bike / skis / snowboard strapped to the top costing more than the car they're strapped to.

Priorities, you know.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

129. One thing I learned from hitchhiking around Tahoe

is that 205's will fit in just about any car with the exception of a Honda Cvcc or VW bug. But you can fit them in a bug if you slide them in the vent window.

Also, I used to stand right in front of the Sheriff station at the bottom of Mt. Rose Hwy to hitchhike up to Slide Mt. and Mt. Rose when I worked at those areas. Hitchhiking is illegal in Nevada but after numerous encounters with the sheriff, it was clear they couldn't cite me unless they actually saw me with my thumb out. So I just told them "I'm waiting for my ride" lol

[Dr Fate]

31. If it were Dean, he would be spun as a "Lazy Ski-Bum"...

...these guys are going to attack Democrats no matter what...

[dsc]

33. No amount of pictures of realatively poor people skiing

is going to change the perception of most people that skiing is a sport that is for mostly well off people. Just like bowling is associated with regular guys depite the fact it can be quite costly. Kerry is wealthy, it is idiotic to try to pretend he isn't. We have had many wealthy presidents and many of them have been quite good. We have had a few poor presidents. Most of them stank. Go figure.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

35. People certainly have the right to hold opinions that are wrong.

They can believe skiing is for elitists, or that gay people are evil, or that Saddam had WMD's, or a multitude of other incorrect things.

They have the right to be wrong, and I have the right to point that out.

[dsc]

40. skiing is an elite sport for much of the country

it is simply nuts to pretend it isn't. Regular Joes don't ski. It isn't a big deal but with the exception of locales which happen to be near mountains, down hill skiing is a fairly uncommon sport for the masses to engage in.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. Surfing is an expensive sport if you live in Wisconsin.

But if you live in Hawaii, no.


So is surfing, itself, elitist?

[dsc]

52. surfers get called lots of things

elitist isn't one.

[July]

102. Well, I know a few skiiers in Buffalo who would disagree.

No mountains there, just the Boston Hills south of Buffalo (not anywhere close to being a bastion of wealth). Plenty of snow for those hills, though, and there are plenty of ordinary people who enjoy Kissing Bridge and other ski venues in the hills. In fact, my friends and relatives, almost all decidedly working or middle class, have been skiing there since the 70s.

[Desertrose]

42. you don't have the right to judge

whether they are right or not....its only from your pov ...doesn't necessarily make it so, does it?

I can say what I want about you...does that make it true?? I can point out you are wrong...so you take my word for it? didn't think so....

I think the problem with the Kerry ski thing is being blown out of proportion...I don't care if & when & where he skis....I care if he is going to back corporations or the people who never get to go skiing or take a vacation...

I don't think making a big deal about all this skiing & elitists is the point here....I want to know how hard Kerry will fight for us....I want to know a lot more about Kerry than his vacations....

Peace
DR

[Feanorcurufinwe]

49. If I say "you are wrong" -- I'm passing judgement?

If you want to put it that way, fine. But I would say passing judgement would be more accurately applied to a statement like: "you are wrong, you must be weak-minded".

Of course if all I do is say "you are wrong", I'm just making an assertion. If I also make an argument or produce evidence, I'm engaging in debate. If I also throw in some insults, I'm being insulting.


But when people call Kerry an elitist for hiking up a mountain and snowboarding down (as many here did), I think they are being ridiculous. I think they should be excited about the idea of having a President who can appreciate doing something like that. And frankly, the idea of being outraged or upset that Kerry does that for fun seems, well, bizarre to me. I was curious as to how many people felt that way.

[Dr Fate]

36. I know many skiers, but none are "wealthy" at all.

I agree 100% that it is unwise to "pretend" that kerry is somthing he is not.

I dont think sking is really seen as all that elitist.

We used to go sking every year in Boy Scouts- and my parents took me every year too.

It's not that expensive, really. You can rent skis, get a week-end pass, and a cheap hotel and gas, for what- $400?

I got cheap plane tickets to Utah last year and skied for pretty cheap.

I'm not rich by any stretch, believe me...

[redqueen]

38. I don't want to get into an argument here,

but let me just say I grew up poor to lower-middle class, and I've never been on a vacation. Not with my family, not with my kids now that I'm grown. When I was younger, a 'vacation' was a long weekend camping. Now that I'm grown, and financially straitjacketed, a 'vacation' is nonexistent.

So... I'm not sure what is used to calculate the median family income, but if it's anything like what they use to calculate unemployment, it might just be way the hell off. I don't think most Americans consider skiing to be a sport for average people.

All this aside, I really doubt that Kerry being portrayed as rich is a big problem for us.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

41. For the record, I've never been on a ski vacation either.

But I did live in a Datsun B210 in the parking lot of Crystal Mountain, WA, one winter, literally living off cold baked beans from the can - but I did ski everyday... does that count as a vacation? Does it make me an elite ski bum?


Am I just plain selfish because I didn't spend that winter protesting injustice?

[redqueen]

46. Why do you insist on making this about you? n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

53. Why do you care? lol

I just think it is hilarious that you have so much emotionally invested in a topic that you have described as 'nonsense'.

[Dr Fate]

45. I was making about $18,000 a year last time I went.

And my girlfriend was making about that much too-

My Dad was a chemical engineer who made about $45,000 (in the 80's) and we went every year.

More than just "rich" people like to ski...

...I cant believe this is a premise for an argument...

[redqueen]

47. What premise?

It's nice that you were able to do that, really. I'm not surprised that you were able to go on a middle-class income. I'm glad that you were able to.

I'm not saying that it's only the 'rich' who like to or bother to try ski/skiing.

[Dr Fate]

50. The premise that sking is "elitist"...

...I dont know any elitist skiers. The only ones I know are regular people I've known for years.

You guys are acting like its polo or yacht racing...

Since they must be so rich- perhaps I should hit them up for some dough!!!

[ScreamingMeemie]

58. Well said. I agree.

I wish we could all get on to important stuff.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

68. This thread was not important enough for you to post in?

[dsc]

39. spending $400 on a weekend

is not something poor people do. I am not claiming only the very idle rich do but I think that if you honestly think the typical American can just spend $400 on a weekend without really thinking about it, you are out of touch.

[Dr Fate]

48. Not even once a year? Who said I was "poor"???

Middle class people can afford a break every now & then...

And for your info- some poor people spend that much money on drugs, cigs & booze EVERY pay-check.

You guys must think that people in the suburbs are "rich"- I always thought they were in the middle...

[DrFunkenstein]

64. Nixon Was A Regular Guy?

Maybe you're thinking of rollerskating. That's pretty cheap to do.

[dsc]

72. Roller skating can be cheap

and it can cost alot. It depends on where you skate and what equipment you choose to buy. I don't recall mentioning Nixon but in many senses he was a regular guy. For all his many faults I think he had a working class mentality. He was born dirt poor and rose to be President. Even though he did so in demagougish ways he did relate to workers. He was certainly a crook and his foreign policy stank. But domesticly he was a pretty good President.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

82. Nixon was a pretty good President domestically?

I guess abusing the Executive power of the Presidency to harass, survey and intimidate your political enemies is no big deal.

[dsc]

86. He did all of the following

Founded the EPA, signed the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, favored National Health Care, started an early version of the EIC, tried to control inflation in a reasonable way. BTW I did call him corrupt do I need to find an online dictionary for you?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

87. Nixon was not a good President, domestically or in any other way, IMHO

Yes, he did sign a lot of good bills that the Democratic congress sent to him. I don't think that makes up for all the harm he did.


BTW I did call him corrupt do I need to find an online dictionary for you? Yes, please, because I'm stupid and I don't know what corrupt means. Thank you.

[AVID]

34. nonelitist skiers - love to have fun on the mtn

http://picserver.org/view_image.php/64HXA4364241

kids ski free, mom and dad save up for the day out and up the slope

[molly]

43. I'm so envious - how VERY BEAUTIFUL!

I hate the cold, but I would have joined you just for the view - that alone is worth a million dollars! Maybe in my next lifetime?

[VOX]

54. No, not at all. But if I were relying on you to do something important...

but you went up there instead, or anywhere to else to relax and have a good time, rather than look after a specific responsibility, I'd be pissed.

I've got no problem whatsoever with Kerry skiing and snowboarding, I just don't think last week was the best time for him to do so. By taking that break, with the Iraq invasion anniversary as a backdrop, and while * was playing military dress-up and saluting the flag-waving troops, Kerry provided the right-wing media a real "let-'em-eat-cake" moment to work with. I certainly don't think that Kerry's ski-break convinced any swing voters to go his way this past week, nor did it do anything to pump up his overall likeability-factor. Fortunately, except for fringies like Drudge, I think Kerry, even for exposing his flank like this, may have gotten got a pass this time around.

IMO, Kerry now has the critical responsibility to stay on his game, not let Democrats down, and to prove to all people that he's engaged with their everyday concerns. He must pay careful attention to his actions and how they might be perceived and portrayed by a hostile press.

I want Kerry to use his ammo on the enemy, not his own feet.

On edit: Great view!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

55. I agree

"I certainly don't think that Kerry's ski-break convinced any swing voters to go his way this past week, nor did it do anything to pump up his overall likeability-factor."

Yes, I think your judgement is correct. However, the purpose of Kerry's vacation was rest, and recuperation for the candidate.

"Kerry now has the critical responsibility to stay on his game, not let Democrats down, and to prove to all people that he's engaged with their everyday concerns."

I completely agree with that as well, and I think Kerry will be better able to do so now that he's had some time off.

[VOX]

59. I am *so* eager to see Kerry take the fight to *!

And after he's elected president, I hope that he gets in a good ski-break before taking the oath of office!

Best to you, Feanorcurufinwe--

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. It was sweat and refried beans that got me to the top of that mountain.

Not any privilege that you care to pretend I enjoyed.




Just what is the 'unexamined privilege' you say I enjoyed? lol


'a sense of entitlement' ? Just what is it that you think I believe I am entitled to?

[Mairead]

70. And privilege. Just because your sense of entitlement masks it from your

perception doesn't mean you don't have it, it only means you don't see it.

Do you think Bush is privileged? Do you think you could convince him he is, and that he doesn't merit it? I don't think you could: he has a psychopath's sense of absolute, total entitlement. Although he might have learned to pay lip-service to the idea that he's privileged, we can see by the way he behaves himself that in a very fundamental way he doesn't even understand the concept.

So I'm not going to try to raise your consciousness any more than I have done. If and when you're ready to hear it, you'll hear it.

And if you think I'm simply yanking your chain, check with any of the DK/'leftist' people around here, such as DesertRose, Kanary, RevCarol, Fatwa, RichM,.... We could all sit down separately and with no collusion come up with near-identical lists of the ways in which you are privileged. (And it's not just you, please don't think I'm ragging on you in particular because I'm not. The same thing applies, mutatis mutandis, to everyone here.)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

78. I am crying out for your help. Please help me,

since you know so much more about my life of privilege than I do -- please tell me what the privilege is that I enjoy that I don't know about.

Surely your purpose is not simply to insult me. Surely you would actually want to help me by telling me what the 'sense of entitlement' you say I have is all about.

Simply saying to someone: "You have a sense of entitlement" - would be an insult.

So I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and a chance to show that you are not a mean-spirited person who just posted on my thread to insult me. I am respectfully asking you to reveal what you meant when you said that I was 'dripping with privilege'. What does that mean? What is the privilege you claim I have?

Please don't limit yourself to insults. Please engage in a discussion.

[DrFunkenstein]

62. Dripping With Privilege? Sounds Like A Letter To Penthouse!

He pushed his throbbing entitlement ever closer to her moist valley of privilege...

My gosh, this needs a picture!



I got to stop reading those Wall Street romance novels...

[Mairead]

71. har! It does, doesn't it.

LOL!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

81. Except for the self-righteous hypocrisy, yes.

[molly]

66. Would you please define "elitist" so we will know if we are?

I used to have a great big income - now it is depleted because of you-know-who. I'm trying to figure out how to earn an income and just haven't got it right yet. I clean my own house now and do my own nails now. Am I elitist? Please-please say NO!

[Mairead]

76. "Elitist"? That's someone who believes that there are people who are

finer and better than the vast majority, so much better that they're due the deference and perhaps obedience of those of lesser quality.

Do you believe there are such people?

From whatever I've read, when the Titanic was sinking it was taken for granted that the only people who should be given place in the few lifeboats were those in upper-deck cabins and staterooms. The people travelling in steerage were assumed to be inherently worth less. Does that sound appropriate to you? If it doesn't, how should space have been allocated (presuming they had time)?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

80. Or someone who believes they know better than everyone else.

So much morally superior that they are in a position to judge, for instance, how others choose to spend their free time and money.

Do you believe there are such people?

[DrFunkenstein]

60. If Playing With My Pet Falcon Is Elitist, Call Me An Elitist

I'm the one with the hat.

[Piperay]

63. Go for it!!

I can't believe the criticism some are aiming at you. You're entitled to enjoy yourself however you want especially when you hurt no one and you are willing to perhaps sacrifice to do it.

[kodi]

65. yes, you should bowl, like real americans do

one hand on the ball, the other griping a budweiser....its for balance.

[incapsulated]

67. Is it elitist to spend hundreds of dollars on a NASCAR trip?

Or thousands on some big screen tv?

That's the kind of thing "ordinary joes" do with their money and their free time.

As I said in the other thread, if you come from a cold and snowy area of this very large country, skiing is hardly considered an "elitist sport", anymore than hunting and fishing is anywhere that is popular, and guns aren't cheap either (you also can't rent them!).

My mom used to drive for hours up to Vermont to ski when I was little and she was still in nursing school. We didn't have any money. She was young and wanted to have, *gasp*, fun. How you spend your money on "fun", and whether it is a "waste of money" is entirely made up from your own personal viewpoint. I can't imagine spending thousands of dollars on a tv, especially using a credit card and getting into debt, but a lot of americans think it's fine. *shrug*

[ThirdWheelLegend]

69. No, not all skiers are elitists, except elitists who ski.

TWL

[dryan]

73. Not sure what people are getting at

Personally, I enjoyed the pictures. Living in Central Florida we don't get much snow here!!!! There have been times in my life when I only made $10-15,000 a year and still managed to go to art museums, gallery openings, concerts, fashion shows, and an occassional trip etc. I saved for them! I also happen to own several Louis V bags (women will know what I'm talking about), a well-worn Louis V briefcase, and I used Dior perfume. Does this make me an elitist? On the other hand, going to NASCAR events, drinking beer, and wearing cowboy boots does not necessarily mean you are "just a regular guy" either. I think a person is an elitist who says (or believes) I've got mine and I don't care if you have yours or not.

[JVS]

75. People whose candidate has been attacked as a "Ski-bum"...

by the supporters of other candidates are often reluctant to defend the candidate of those who have hurled the accusation.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

79. Who needs defending?

Who attacked who as a 'ski-bum'? Did it happen? When? What was said? By whom? The things that were said, were they true?

[JVS]

83. Enjoy having Kerry smeared by the Republicans

As for your questions, it would probably be unwise for me to dredge up old things said here on DU. If you look hard enough, I bet you can find them for yourself.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

84. You enjoy that? Why?

I already know the answers to the questions I asked in my previous post, and it is BS to imply that those answers would reveal anything that would bolster your argument.

Simply put, you implied a false accusation, and when I called you on it, you rightfully backed down.

[JVS]

85. No I am telling you to have fun with it

AS far as the ski-bum issue, many have seen it here and I have no need to prove it to you. Nice of you to tell me what I enjoy, though. I wouldn't so much say I enjoy it as say I am amused.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

88. Why? Why should I have fun with attacks on Kerry?

Why would you wish me to have fun with attacks on Kerry?

What actually is your point?



You are criticizing me for guessing your point

( my guess was: you take glee in attacks on Kerry because of hurt feelings from the primary campaign )

so rather than guess your point, I'm asking: what is your point?



Because if that interpretation is wrong, the next one I would come up with is, you take glee in my supposed discomfiture at attacks on Kerry. But that would be awfully mean-spirited on your part so I'd rather not think that's true.




You said: Enjoy having Kerry smeared by the Republicans


What did you mean? Please correct my flawed interpretation.

[JVS]

89. There are reasons for you to be happy

first of all, if that is what the Republicans have to attack Kerry with, then things are good. If the major issue of this election becomes who is the most plutocratic in their recreational activities, then Kerry should be able to convince the public that George "I play golf constantly" Bush is more detached from the bulk of Americans.

I am amused by the attacks on Kerry primarily because of the reactions of people here. There are plenty of Kerry supporters who I consider to be very unpleasant people to say the least, and watching them have to deal with a ski-bum accusation of their own after they slung accusations so joyfully is very amusing. I will not provide specifics on this because that would place me within violation of the rules, a point of which I believe you were perfectly aware when you asked me for examples. I do not recall if you called any candidate a ski-bum, so I must assume that you have not. However, there must be some who are getting a dose of what they dealt out, and they deserve every bit of it.

That having been said, I declare myself neutral on this issue. I shall not attack Kerry for the way he spends his free time, but I will also not defend him from accusations that a) he's out of touch with Americans because he skis, or b) he is wasting valuable time that could be better spent campaigning.

I hope this makes things clear enough

[Feanorcurufinwe]

90. So I was right.

"I am amused by the attacks on Kerry primarily because of the reactions of people here."

Wow. At least you admit your failings in public. Most people won't admit to such distasteful and ugly attitudes. I salute you for your honesty.



"I will not provide specifics on this because that would place me within violation of the rules,"

Sorry, but that just isn't true. There is nothing in the rules that keeps you from quoting anything I've said on DU at any time. There is nothing in the rules that keeps you from linking to a previous thread. Just use the search function and show us just exactly what you are talking about. Nothing in the rules prohibits that.

[JVS]

91. I think that that may run afoul of the "calling out" rule

besides, I don't really care to go searching through the archives since I the search function doesn't work very well. As I've said before I have no memory of you engaging in attacks on a candidate because he skis. But such attacks have been made.

It is also no failing to enjoy others getting what they dished out.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

92. You can't hide behind the rules.

You certainly could back up what you are saying if it were the truth without running afoul of the rules. It is simply false and dishonest to say or imply otherwise.

As far as you being proud of the fact that you revel in attacks on Kerry, I think that speaks for itself.

[JVS]

93. I'm sure Kerry can handle the ski attacks

It's people here that have problems with it.

[Hav]

94. .

And it's people like you who enjoy it.
It's quite sad that the primary caused so much sour grapes and disunity.

[JVS]

95. whatever a man sows, that he will also reap

[Feanorcurufinwe]

98. Quite true. Who has sown, and what are they reaping?

lol

[Hav]

103. Kerry deserved it?

Kerry called Dean a ski bum?
Link?

[JVS]

106. Let's just say, if I see an ad where Kerry's face morphs into Bin Laden...

I'll be laughing my ass off.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

108. But why would you take such pleasure in Bush attacking Kerry like that?

I don't get it. Who are you hoping will win, Bush or Kerry?

[Hav]

109. .

I'm sure you will enjoy it.
I'm sure you will also enjoy it if Bush manages somehow to win in November.

So I'm right, it's 100% sour grapes, poor boy.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

112. I feel I have to correct you. Bush will not win in November.

So those who would take pleasure in seeing Kerry defeated will just have to be disappointed.

[Hav]

116. edited ;)

What still bothers me is how Democrats make no secret about it that they enjoy to see fellow Democrats getting trashed.

[JVS]

115. I believe we have some confusion as to what "sour grapes" means

According to

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/sour.html

In a famous fable by Aesop, a fox declared that he didn't care that he could not reach an attractive bunch of grapes because he imagined they were probably sour anyway. You express sour grapes when you put down something you can't get: "winning the lottery is just a big headache anyway." The phrase is misused in all sorts of ways by people who don't know the original story and imagine it means something more general like "bitterness" or "resentment."


I believe that you have made this error.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

123. Do you have a source for that definition?

And is that applicable? How have I indicated that the Nomination of the party isn't something I view as worthy of pursuit?

[Hav]

127. .

As my native tongue is not English, I can only assume that it's applicable in the sense that you preferred the nomination for your candidate instead of Kerry.

http://www.wordreference.com/english/definition.asp?en=...

[JVS]

130. Even native speakers can make mistakes

By using the phrase sour grapes you are alluding to the fable of the fox and the grapes. The problem is when the situation is not accurately described by invoking the fable.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

96. So am I.

Why do you insist that someone here 'has a problem with it'?


If Kerry is the subject of a bogus or misleading or outright false attack, and I post a response to that attack, you are welcome to feel glee because you think it makes me all hot and bothered. But your feelings would be a product of your own false perceptions.

lol

[JVS]

99. So why do you need to justify people taking ski trips?

And paint it as an activity of "regular people"?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

104. I don't. I like to chat about politics on DU.

I don't need to justify anything.


Why do you need to ascribe motives to me?

[JVS]

107. Because if this were just DU chat it would be in the lounge.

It seems there is some kind of political motivation to this thread and the poll above.

[dsc]

97. Yes it is against the rules

I have had posts removed for doing exactly that. He can look up your posts but not people who haven't posted in this thread. If you don't believe me or the other poster, go ask Skinner in ATA, I have done exactly that and been told that doing that was against the rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

100. Wrong.

You have had many posts removed, that is true. However, that is not a fact that demonstrates understanding of the rules on your part. Quite the contrary.

[dsc]

113. No you are wrong

and I have it from Skinner, who as the writer of the rules, probably knows what they are. Here is the thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

You owe both me and the other poster an abject apology. You pretty much called us liars when in point of fact we were totally and completely correct. As Skinner says in the link I just provided, it is against the rules to quote someone to criticise what they said. That is exactly, and precisely what you were saying the poster here should do and exactly and precisely what that poster claimed was against the rules. You flat out mistated the rule. You flat out got caught. You owe both of us an apology. It is that simple.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

125. LOL

Here is the post you linked to:

"This has come up

Is it or is it not against the rules to within a thread site a post by someone who hasn't posted within that thread?

Depends how it's done. Skinner Mar-23-04 12:52 PM


If it's a respectful nod to the person who posted it, then it's fine.
But if the intent is to attack or ridicule or hold that person up as some sort of negative example, then it's not permitted.
And there are obviously many shades between those two extremes. As a shorthand rule, positive is okay, negative is not.
Our feeling is that it is just not fair to start an argument with someone when they are not around to defend themselves.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

So the question you asked is actually quite different from the underlying disagreement between me and JVS.

If JVS is accusing someone who is not participating in this thread of something negative, then he is in clear disagreement of this rule: "Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating." in which case the whole discussion is moot anyway.

If the accusation is being leveled at me, then there is nothing to stop him from backing up the accusation with evidence.

[JVS]

101. Thank you for chiming in

[Feanorcurufinwe]

105. A chorus of false statements is so much more persuasive than just one.

lol

[JVS]

110. I'm just electing not to take my chances with the rules

[Feanorcurufinwe]

111. No, you're falsely claiming the rules say something they don't say.

[dsc]

114. They are Skinners rules and as this thread says I am right

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[JVS]

117. It is a wise and clear statement on Skinner's part.

I am glad to see that my caution was justified.

[dsc]

120. and of course no apology (despite a PM) for you and I being all but

called liars for stating exactly and precisely what the rules are. Somehow I won't be holding my breath.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

121. When are you going to realize that people don't need to apologize

for speaking their minds.

I don't expect an apology from you for your posts, no matter what my opinion of them.

As far as what the rules are, they don't prohibit quoting anyone as to what they said. They don't prohibit linking to a prior DU post. And it IS a lie to say otherwise.

They do say:

Do not "stalk" another member from one discussion thread to another. Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere. Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating. Do not start a new discussion thread with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member. Do not use your signature line to draw negative attention to another member of the board.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

I just want to point out that quoting someone, or linking to a post by someone, is not 'talking negatively about' them. And that the 'calling out' rule applies specifically to starting a new thread.

In short, it is not true that the rules prohibit backing up accusations against DUers by linking to their posts.

To say so would indeed be a lie.

[dsc]

126. Skinner just told me you can't do what you were asking that poster to do

how fucking clear could it be. You were directly asking him to quote a post to hold it up to ridicule and criticism. You then called both him and me liars for saying what the rule says. Had he done it you would have alerted him. You damn well know it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

128. Sorry, no matter how much swearing you do, you're still wrong.

about the ATA thread you reference

[JVS]

119. Not in the least. The rules permit the moderators great lattitude

we are cautioned to be careful about the fact that just because one's actions are not expressly forbidden, it is not to be considered within regulations

[KoKo]

77. I would vote for you after seeing this photo. heh heh.....

You look "real." Not like you were posing for a photo-op.

[Moderator]

131. Locking

This thread is being locked.