Can we discuss these Obama campaign flyers without throwing shit at each other?

[JMDEM]

I'd really like some clarification on the issues.

What did the flyers say? (Anyone have copies they could reproduce, or point to on the web?)

The flyers made some charges about Hillary's positions on health care and NAFTA. Are the charges true? Partially true? Untrue? What I've picked up (which may or may not be true) is that Obama claims Hillary would charge health care even to those who couldn't afford it. ???

Obama also said Hillary is a long-time supporter of NAFTA, which seems obvious, but apparently made some references that were inaccurate.

I've seen the video of Hillary responding, and I saw a brief clip of Obama on CNN responding to Hillary. But I'm still in the dark on the facts.

Can we PLEASE just discuss the facts / issues without insults?

Could this one post just serve the purpose to discuss and enlighten, rather than flinging feces?

[sandnsea]

1. A couple links

NAFTA brochure
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/02/obamas_misleadi.html

The "boon" quote was subsequently retracted by the newspaper. They said that was their interpretation of her view, not her actual words. As far as I can see, that's the only comment where there is any controversy whatsoever. The rest of her complaints are based on HER view of what is true. If you disagree with her, you're apparently the worst kind of Rovian operative.

Here's the Obama campaign's response:

http://thepage.time.com/saturday-obama-campaign-release/

[JMDEM]

2. Thanks! NT.

Your avatar cracks me up.

[ingac70]

3. You can clearly see the health care flyer...

in the pic here:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/23/clinton-slams-obama-tactics/

[JMDEM]

5. So yes -- Obama says that Hillary will force you to buy health care.

Is this true?

[Tarc]

7. Whatever happened to the idea of universal health care being a solid progressive issue?

"Universal" does mean everyone y'know. Those currently without coverage would be given steep discounts, aid, and forms of assistance so that it becomes affordable. That is what is so damned deceitful about Obama's anti-health care rhetoric, in that is resurrects the 90's-era lies that it would force poor people into paying for something they cannot afford. It is a carbon copy of the Gingrich tactics.

[ingac70]

12. Universal health INSURANCE is NOT universal health care.

[Quixote1818]

13. Neither plan is truly a Universal Health care plan.

Moore, director of the Academy Award-nominated documentary “SiCKO” about the U.S. healthcare system, criticized both Clinton and her rival for the Democratic presidential nomination, Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.), for failing to support a universal system of government-financed health coverage during their runs for the White House. “The two Democratic candidates don’t quite get it,” he said.


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/michael-moore-says-insurance-industry-would-love-clintons-healthcare-plan-2008-02-22.html

[Hippo_Tron]

17. Universal healthcare as an entitlement is progressive as a mandate it is debateable

[VenusRising]

8. Everyone will be required to purchase and retain insurance on Hillary's plan.

With Obama's plan, it's only children that will have to have mandatory coverage. If families are low-income or cannot afford the insurance, they can still qualify for Medicaid, SCHIP, and even subsidies from the government.

[rodeodance]

26. That's the BEAUTY of Hillary's plan: Health care for ALL.

[speedoo]

9. Yes, Hillary would force people to pay for it.

She has talked about witholding money at the workplace from paychecks.

I believe the only criticism by Hillary about these flyers that has any validity is the use of the word "boon", as noted eslsewhere in this thread.

[samdogmom]

10. Here's a statement from Newsweek--think what you want:

Clinton stretches things a bit, too. Even her plan – which, unlike Obama's, includes a mandate for individuals to get insurance – would leave out a million people or perhaps more, depending on how severe the penalties would be for those who don't comply. She won't say how her mandate would be enforced, but has said that she was open to the possibility of garnishing wages.

Here's the link if you want to verify: http://www.newsweek.com/id/111811

[Window]

22. ..

[ingac70]

11. Yes...

That's what a mandate is... To make mandatory, as by law; decree or require

[Just-plain-Kathy]

15. I saw Hillary give a speech, she said we would all have to buy healthcare insurance...

...she even brought up how we would need ID cards proving our purchase before we could get hired for a job.

[Blue_Roses]

18. ...

:wtf:

[Just-plain-Kathy]

24. On the day Hillary said we would have to prove our purchase of HCI...

...our local news station shown the clip a few times that day. I remember thinking Hillary has found a way to save businesses from kicking in insurance for their employeees.

[goodgd_yall]

21. I doubt that's accurate

At the most she may have flown some ideas around, but she's not said anything definite about the details.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

23. She was throwing something around. Thinking off the top of her head.

[JVS]

25. It is true. It is not putting her position in the kindest light, but it's true.

[Johnny__Motown]

4. There were copies of them on tons of posts earlier

One problem was the word "Boon" that was attributed to Hillary in regards to NAFTA. It seems that the article which described her as believing NAFTA was a "Boon" was retracted. She never used that word, although it has been argued that she did make a number of statements which praised NAFTA. You can go to page 2-3 on this board and see lots more on this subject.

Another problem is that it said "Obama is the only candidate who has been consistently against NAFTA" (or words to that effect). There are quotes up about him wanting to expand it and others about him wanting to change it. Also quotes about Hillary now being against it. This is a huge mess and will defiantly be hashed over for days, including the debate.



As for the Health Care mailer. It seems that if you put a picture of a couple talking about their money woes over a stack of bills then it is a Harry & Louise add and can't be used. She said "since when does one democrat attack another democrat over universal health care?" This is more convoluted and will also be hashed over for days, including the debate.



I suggest checking out some of the threads that are approx ten or twelve hours old, lots of crap out there on this back then.

[JMDEM]

6. Okay.

[Quixote1818]

14. I am going to kick this and recommend it because these neutral posts are always the most

constructive and good for getting the real facts out. People are actually have a real civil, constructive discussion here. Thanks for starting it.

[canadian_is_cold]

16. Lets not forget about HRC's mailers

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/youve_got_mailers.html

http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/mailer.pdf


Here are a couple of mailers from the Obama camp. Notice the date on the first one.
Odd that this is being brought up again. She is acting like this is the first time she has seen them.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/harry_louise_again.html
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/obama_health_mailer.pdf
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/02/from-the-fact-c.html

[Egnever]

19. I actually find the health care fight to be rather silly

A president doesnt make laws they sign them. The health care bill we get if we get one wont look like either of their plans.

[Obamaman2008]

20. The President is Cheif Legislatior also

He or She can propose legislation to be passed by Congress. The president has the power of veto and so can negotiate deals and ideas.

I don't like mandated health insurance. Because one, I cannot afford it, and second, it doesn't pay for the health care needs I need.

I would support affortable health insurance that covers what I need. But the rest is just talk. Forcing people to buy something they cannot afford and is not useful to them is a crime in my opinion.

[rodeodance]

27. yes. that is a given---but for now-the differences are key