Clinton's Closing Remarks raise a typical and bigger dilemma about her

[Armstead]

On the surface, Clinton's closing remarks in last nights debate were very classy.

She was gracious to Obama, she seemed heartfelt in her desire that the election work out best for the American people, and there was compassion there.

I kind of responded positively on a gut level.

However, at the time -- and especially after -- it also made me cringe. She didn't repeat her choking up in New Hampshire. But it came awfully close.

More to the point, it reminded me of a fundamental problem I (and many others) have long had with the Clintons. On both an intellectual and emotional level, things are seldom what they seem. You need to bring out the Clinton Code Book to try and parse their words and motivations.

It sums up for me both the personal and political problem with the Clintons. It's hard to figure out exactly where they are coming from, and what their motivations are.

Was her moment of graciousness real, or was she acting for effect? Or was she caught up in a genuine moment of emotion? Did she really have a moment of appreciation for Obama -- and maybe a feeling that his win is inevitable and it's time to move beyond the rancour?....Or did she have some strategy to become the "gracious" candidate? How could I square her expression of appreciation for Obama with the Xerox remark?

Today, saying she intends to press the fight on Florida and Michigan, it seems that the positive side of her performance could have been an act. Her stated belief last night that things would likely be settled to everyone's satisfaction before the convention now seems to have been retracted.

I honestly don't know. Just like I honestly never know whether she and her husband really see their policies as being liberal in a positive sense, or if they are merely using the DLC strategy of trying to placate the liberals while delivering for the conservative corporate elite.

Like him or not, Obama seems to me to be more straightforward. Yes he can be a cool calculating customer. Yes his ideology can be a bit fuzzy. But there seems to be more of a consistency and directness in him that is lacking in the Clinton's.

I should give Hillary the benefit of the doubt about last night. But dammit, I keep getting this "fool me once" feeling about it. Just having to deal with that question is a perplexing problem that seems to touch on a larger perplexity that is associated with her and the DLC brand of Democrat.

[keep_it_real]

1. You've done a good job of describing what a lot of people

Who have doubts Hillary feel.

[Voice for Peace]

33. I agree with OP, well said. I was also uncomfortable with her evasive response to the

question about the superdelegates.. at least it seemed evasive to me, as
I am wary of what's really going on behind the scenes with the superd's
and even with the pledged ones.

[TheDebbieDee]

40. Those lines or several eerily similar closing lines, were originally

spoken by Bill Clinton during his '92 campaign. Those lines were from one of the speeches he gave when he lost a primary. Paul Begala wrote those lines for Bill Clinton to speak and Paul Begala reclaimed those lines this morning on Stephanie Miller's show this morning.

So, perhaps Hillary repeated those lines to draw attention to the fact that when John Edwards suspended his campaign, he was in fact using lines lifted from hubby Bill's campaign.

[LakeSamish706]

2. Everything she does is a calculated act... She is so disingenious....

There is a very good reason that many here on DU and I'm sure Americans in general do not like HRC....

[Rosa Luxemburg]

26. The campaign had advisors who help her what to say

they were probably all seated round the table and someone said "so what should we put at the end" and then regarding the Obama copy thing someone said "hey Xerox" that's catchy! You know how it goes.....

[KittyWampus]

3. Well, her closing lines were absolutely scripted. IMO, Clintons are trying to make her seem

besieged to try and manufacture some sympathy votes for her.

Bill telling crowds she's out if she loses Texas or Ohio and it's all up them.

Good move on their part. Politics is theater. Might work.

[Armstead]

7. I don;t mind the beseiged fighter part....

that's both an acceptance of the current situation and possibly a way to replay New Hampshire.

But it's the emotional vagueness that really bothers me. If Hillary had been lean and mean in her attitude in the debate, at least it would have been more straightforward. But this gauziness feels manipulative.

[KittyWampus]

38. schizophrenic, more like. I'm not throwing the word out lightly, either

She took the plagarism thing and attacked Obama twice, the second time with a nasty canned response.

She reaffirmed her nastiness towards Obama's surrogate, the Texas state senator IN A DEBATE IN TEXAS!

She repeatably refused to let the Health Care topic go.

And then, at the end, she gets all "gauzy".

[Yael]

4. You just described the problem that non-Clinton fans have with them, and I can sum it up in 3 words

Lack of trust.

[hfojvt]

41. but her statement was inherently untrustable

If it is the video that I watched when I first came to DU and that got a standing ovation. She described how moved she was by the wounded veterans and how they have it so hard.

Maybe it's mean to say it, but, gee Hillary, if you had opposed the war as hard as Obama and I did, those veterans might not ever have been so badly wounded. Their blood is not entirely on her hands, but she sure did her part to vote for it, to cheer for it after the vote, and to try to justify it after the war started.

She claimed that her whole purpose/outlook was that she had been blessed and she worked to give other people those opportunities, but that does not square with her (or Bill's) record, nor with the policies she proposes. In this campaign she promises very little which will either comfort the afflicted or afflict the comfortable. It's not really "lack of trust" when you can clearly see that she is lying, that her lofty sentiments and claimed ideals are pure phlogiston.

[Alexander]

51. The standing ovation was because the debate was over.

The audience knew it, so they stood up.

[shadowknows69]

5. Well said and spot on

I'm down to about my fourth choice for candidate and it becomes an issue of who do I trust less because I don't trust either of them much.

[Independent-Voter]

6. less than 14 hours later, she's back on the "seating the MI" voter train. Keep Classy Clinton!

[K Gardner]

8. I knew when it happened it wasn't "real". She went through at least 3 different

"personalities" last night in the debate.. the last one was a desperate attempt to save face and to a degree, it worked. All the morning shows are talking about A) Her Xerox line and B) Her Most Excellent Closing Remark

To me and many I suppose, it was just another facade. You've summed it up perfectly. No surprise that she came out in favor this morning of cheating, once again.

So much for conciliation. And to those who say she should be on an Obama Ticket, I say no way in hell. She is the antithesis of all he represents and would sink his ability to govern before he even had a chance to start.

[Armstead]

14. I really don't think she'd accept a VP slot

I wouldn't in her position. It would be at best a "been there done that" and at worst a comedown.

If she doesn;t get the nomination this time, my hunch is that she'd focus on being a Senator and perhaps try to lay the groundwork for anotehr run next time around.

[gravity]

9. She was being real

Most of her campaign has been very calculated and planned, making her come off as fake or disingenuous. She let her gaurd down in the end, which revealed her true self.

The biggest delemma Hillary faces is being a woman running for president. She has to be strong and hide her emotions in the face of crisis, but she connects best with the voters when she lets her true feeling come out.

[Armstead]

12. I don't think it's a gender issue

I think it's a trait she and her husband both share.

It's a lack of emotional and intellectual clarity. In policy terms, it is the same indistinctness. Did she really believe that Bush was not planning to go to war? Did she really buy his arguments?...Or was she taking what seemed to be the course of political expediency?

[Fovea]

13. Why Americans may be leery of emotional demonstrations

Our Deciderer and Crashcart have been manipulating our negative emotions and abusing our positive ones for seven years now.

I think those who do not have the koolaid in their bloodstream get touchy about being schmoozed on.

The reason Obama succeeds at it is that his affect remains fairly cool, even when he is using emotional arguments and language.

That's just my take on it. My candidate left the race.

[Independent-Voter]

47. HRC - Always the Victim (needs a trademark sign)

[KittyWampus]

50. her scripted, prepared final remarks were not authentic. At this point, I question if Hillary

HAS an authentic persona she can present to the public. Both Clintons have been doing whatever it takes to maintain power for so long, they've lost their core.

[mtnsnake]

10. I think what Hillary successfully accomplished with her closing comments was

that she increased her likabilty ratings among undecided voters in a big way.

Lots of people who don't really know her might have come out of that debate saying to themselves, "Wow, I knew she was competent, but I didn't realize she could be so likable."

[nomorewhopper]

11. this post hits the nail right on the head

clintons closing remarks were exceptional last night, but on the heels of the xerox zinger it came off as incredibly phony and calculated (which i am sure it was)

[Marie26]

15. Just consider her a human being & go from there.

The biggest problem is that people are intent on seeing everything, everything that she does as some sort of calculated ploy. From "Iron My Shirt" to a motorcade crash, it's all Hillary's plotting, all the time. The fear and hatred is so over the top I can't believe it. She's a person, a politician, a stateswoman. She knows when the gig is up & was gracious enough to show support for Obama & her party. Let it go.

[Armstead]

21. That's the problem

I've tried many times to assume that she is being sincere, but there is so much code to muddle through because they put up so many smokescreens.

Like last night. I breathed a sigh of relief when she seemed to say that her campaign would not stir up any of the potentially damaging issues like seating delegates from Fla and Mich. But today she made clear that she was going to press that one.

It seems like everything she (and Bill) say and do is rooted in a fundamental desire to never be pinned down to anything. And thus never really committed to anything except their own ambition.

It's like the old phrase "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

[hfojvt]

45. just because she is a human being

does not mean she is sincere. Most human beings are not, and if their actions do not jibe with their words, then that tells you what you need to know about them.

See my above post. She had the chutzpah to mention wounded veterans and their struggles as if she had not been a major enabler of the very war which had caused those wounds. She claimed to be in this to provide opportunity to those who are struggling and yet most of her policies are aimed at the people above the median income. Like a Republican, she proposes tax credits for them and mostly ignores the poor and working poor. She's lying to TV viewers who do not know her record or her platform well enough to catch her in her lies. Like George W. Bush's "compassionate conservatism" I am not buying this "DLC populism".

[tularetom]

16. I want to believe that was sincere

but I keep remembering instances where she acted against her own instincts in order not to piss off people who hate her guts anyway. Like the Iraq war resolution. Like her refusal to apologize for voting for the Iraq war resolution. Like the flag burning amendment she cosponsored. Like voting for that godawful Loserman thing with Iran. Like skipping out on the FISA vote.

You know goddamn well she doesn't believe in that shit. Neither does Bill. But they never seem to act on their instincts. They try too hard to please their enemies.

[babylonsister]

17. She was so genuine, I was hoping she'd apologize for her

part in putting those soldiers on the gurneys, in the wheelchairs, etc. But no dice. She seemed to want to cash in on her humanity, but then reality got in the way-for me.

You're right; it's tough knowing when she's being herself, because I don't think we've seen the real Hillary. That's too bad because she's probably a lot nicer than she gives herself credit for.

[XemaSab]

42. Yeah, I thought she was going to apologize for the IWR

or at least admit to feeling some anguish about it, but since she didn't, I was like "Oh, yeah, when in doubt bring up wounded veterans." :eyes:

[Straight Shooter]

18. Obama's strength is in acting "cool." Hillary's strength is in speaking from her heart.

When Obama puts Hillary down with phrases like, "Now we're in the silly season," (IOW, you're silly for having brought this up), he gets accolades. When Hillary speaks from the heart, she gets accolades, except from Obama supporters, who are more cynical than they imagine themselves to be. Wasn't it Obama who said that cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom?

If Hillary evokes empathy in listeners, that's a good thing, because getting people back in touch with their heart can have a very positive, motivational effect.

edit typo

[babylonsister]

25. From her heart? Bwhahaha!

Go review her tears in NH, and getting right back on message after she was done emoting.

And Obama acting cool? Maybe because he is? He's cool under fire, which is another trait I love about him.

[Straight Shooter]

28. Perception is everything.

So is identification with others.

[Umbram]

19. I have this feeling about almost all politicians.

including Obama and Edwards.

Maybe that's why I'm a D.K. guy. He's not charismatic enough to be disingenuous.

[Armstead]

23. I would agree with you. That;s why I like people like....

DK, Wellstone, Bernie Sanders, Teddy K and many others who don't put up a lot of filters.

To be honest, even though their politics are repugnant, among conservatives I prefer those conservatives like Dick Armey and jack kemp who seem to have a direct connection between their beliefs and their mouth.

[Colobo]

20. I'm confident she will lose Texas regardless of her closing statement.

[BeyondGeography]

22. Exhausting, isn't it?

K&R

[Armstead]

24. You summed up my OP perfectly

[Bread and Circus]

27. Make no mistake, it was 100% pure emotional manipulation.

[balantz]

29. I don't care for either of them.

But apparently a lot of people think they are both the best of the bunch.

[Arugula Latte]

30. Wow. Good post. You put in words what I've had a hard time articulating.

Sometimes I do feel a genuine sympathy for Hillary, and then I instantly wonder if I'm being manipulated ... Not a good question to always have to ask yourself about a candidate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Let's Just Merge The Threads... It Fits Right In With Your "Hillary Is A Calculating $%^#* Meme

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4712608

Yeah, I said it and I would rather take a cap behind the ear than walk away from it..

[babylonsister]

32. I heard about that cop; very sad, but not Clinton's fault.

What are you suggesting?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. Read The Thread

One Obama supporter suggested she engineered it...

Another " " suggested she will milk the tragedy for publicity...

Another " " suggested she doesn't care that someone in her motorcade died...

[babylonsister]

37. Sigh. There's a lot of bozos on this bus, you know that. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. Let it go.

Lest you look like you're trying to exploit it yourself.

[Armstead]

34. You are overgeneralizing there

I never said anything about that incident -- NOR WOULD I EVER SAY ANYTHING RELATED TO THAT!

If you even suspect that I support that kind of post-tragedy cheap shot, you obviously know nothing abiut me. I have always made it a personal principle on DU to avoid commenting on tragedies ior engage in any speculating or politicizing in their immediate aftermath.

And my post never referenced gender and, in fact, made certain to point out that I have the same problem with her husband and the whole DLC approach to things.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. How Is Obama's Politics So Different From The DLC

I don't see how reaching out to Indys and Rethugs is so different from Third Way politics or triangulation...The only major issue where there is a difference is on health care where Hillary's plan is more progressive...

A good friend of mine nailed it... Obama will do well with his gauzy appeal because many voters who disagree with him on the issues will vote for him because they don't realize the disagreements...

[Armstead]

39. Not as much difference as I'd prefer

I'd rather see Obama be more like Edwards and Kucinich in his ideas, frankly.

But I do believe that he is different from the DLC and triangulation in an important respect.

Both appear to be pragmatic approaches to overcome ideological gridlock. But the basic goals and starting position are different.

Triangulation is actively trying to move the debate to the right by co-opting Republican and conservative positions.

Moderate concensus building on the other hand starts at a real position, and looks for areas of common interest or compromise, in an effort to draw the other side in your direction.

Apart from the right-wing crazy portion of the country (who will never be persuaded to change their minds or compromise with liberals) I believe Obama's moderate approach has more possibility to build a consensus with the center and moderate conservatives in constructive ways.

[XemaSab]

43. I know what you're saying

In the sober light of day I can picture her rehearsing both her closing statements and the xerox remark.

I'm not sure which one I consider to be worse: preparing something really nasty (instead of saying something nasty on the fly) or preparing her discussion of the soldiers without thinking "Shit, I voted for this to happen." :shrug:

[ORDem]

44. At this point I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt

and let it go. She's not going past TX and OH, so this is essentially her swan song.

Let's just hope she will be so gracious in her concession speech and get behind Obama and start pounding on the little shit hypocrite McCain.

John McCain: Only 10 in dog years!

:dem:

[Dogmudgeon]

46. Oops -- wrong place.

--p!

[Diane R]

49. That's the problem. With Obama, you feel like what you see is what you get. Hillary? No.