I guess it was inevitable. Du has become so popular we

[KC21304]

have developed a splinter group, Democrats Undermined. You may have seen some of their work. Lovely pictures of Osama holding Kerry signs, Kerry's face on Barney Fife's body etc.

Of course we shouldn't criticize anyone bringing this stuff to us, because just as Drudge and those literary masterpieces in the UK say, it's out there so we have to pass it on.

Kerry on.

[katieforeman]

1. It wreaks of desperation.

If this is the best they can do against Kerry,they are in trouble.

[Nicholas_J]

228. It was inevitable

There is historical precedent...The supporters of losers with a bad case of sour grapes is rife in history. The Daughters of the Confederacy, and other groups that kept supporting the lost cause for over a century is one example...among other more insideous groups founded after the collapse of the south. And many others who for a large portion of the last century gathered around the beer hall to sing the Horst Wessel song is another example. For the most part, the causes they support were bad ones, and so failed, fortunately. This is just another group of supporters of a failed cause.

I consider it an honor to be among the people who irritated these supporters of yet another bad cause.

[katieforeman]

284. well said

[IndianaGreen]

287. Are you proud to support the war in Iraq?

Because that's the underlying issue here!

[slinkerwink]

2. what's the web address?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. They do it because we are the underground

and some people are committed to being the underground and the underdog for eternity. Nevermind that the purpose of every other underground in history was to eventually see the light of day. The "underground" is so much a part of some people's permanent victim status identity, that if change actually took place (even gradually) they wouldn't know who to be anymore. The humorous thing is these are the people claiming OTHERS are committed to the "status quo" when their own actions indicate that they too seem to be fine with it...in fact, fine enough to help us lose.

[asjr]

4. Maybe we should be referred to as

The French Resistance. They did a lot of good work during WW11. Undoubtedly people will think Kerry is behind it.

[OKNancy]

75. NSMA

Anyone ever told you that you are one smart woman?

[Exgeneral]

88. oops

wrong place.

[Guaranteed]

99. Well it's a good thing we're here for you

to be angry at! Otherwise, what would YOU do?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

131. I think you are projecting..I'm not angry at anyone

It's a good thing I am here for you to hurl your pithy little comments at, otherwise your family might end up taking the abuse.

[Guaranteed]

223. No, remember? I'M the victim, YOU'RE the abuser.

Please don't hurt me!

[HuskerDem]

160. I'm surprised anyone would be so quick to identify themselves

as a person mired in the identity of a permanent victim that wouldn't know what to do without their perpetually oppressed creds.

But then that's just me.

[Guaranteed]

221. Well, it's certainly nothing new.

That's all Dean supporters hear from Kerry supporters.

[TreasonousBastard]

240. Just for the record...

some of us supporting other candidates, or sitting in the fence, were getting pretty damn sick and tired of that core of whiny Deaniac assholes who insisted on posting daily Kerry and Clark smears.

Some of us were also getting pretty sick of the Dean Walks on Water nonsense, too.

Some of us <gasp!> didn't really think all that much of him, and didn't thnk he'd be all that hot a President. Opportunist comes to mind. DINO, too. Republican friends of mine in Vermont loved the guy.

But, calmly question his anti-corporate or environmental credentials? Question his attitudes on any war but Iraq? His attitudes toward labor? Question how and when he decided Iraq was not such a good idea? Don't even think about it lest the wrath of Deanomania comes down upon thy head.

Personally, I'm not unhappy to be rid of him. He was one of the most divisive elements of the camapaign.

Even if he personally wasn't looking to splinter the party, some elements of his support certainly did what they could. And they're still doing it.

I don't want Dean to rot in hell, and he certainly could contribute now and in the future, but he is NOT going to be President any time soon, and he's not doing all that much to elect Kerry or dump Shrub at the moment, so the less I hear about him, the happier I am.

Meanwhile, the yakking about Dean is as big a waste of electrons and air as yakking about Gebhardt or any of the nine who didn't make it.

[Guaranteed]

250. Smears? Did Kerry vote AGAINST the IWR?

Did Clark actually HAVE a solid position on the war itself the day he entered the RACE? Am I spreading LIES here?

Look, the war was wrong. It's just the truth. Just about everybody here on DU knew it, way before it even started, but no one in our fucking PARTY was willing to stand up for us- and what was right. OUR PARTY ABANDONED US. And you KNOW it.

Opportunist or not, Dean was THERE for us. HE DID THE RIGHT THING, when no one else would. Even if he is an opportunist- which he isn't- at least he didn't cut and run just because things got heated. You know what they call people who do that, don't you?

I may be voting for Kerry in the GE, but he'd damned well better show some courage and fucking REPRESENT ME THIS TIME.

Enjoy your being a Kerry supporter. As far as the Presidency is concerned, us Dean supporters say, "You're welcome" to both of you.

[TreasonousBastard]

269. The war is one small part...

of what's going on in this country.

And stated "positions" in politics are always to be taken with a grain of salt. Anyone in politics will have have a vote or a speech which can be used to attack when the context is ignored.

I personally have a number of concerns with the environment, criminal justice, economics, and a number of other areas. And, of course, just what do we do about Iraq and our current extreme militarization.

"Our party" has been savagely attacked by the right wing that is now in power and holds just about all the cards. Daschle, for one, is looking at the fight of his political life to get re-elected, and is probably more concerned about keeping his job to fight again next year than he is about standing up for truth, justice, and the American way.

This situation, one way or another, is pretty much what our entire history has been cursed with. It's just the breaks in a democracy that sometimes the other guys win. The other guys get really pissed when they lose, too, and try to rain on us. Remember when they couldn't do any more than we can this year?

Whether or not Dean could bring the party "back to its senses" is now irrelevant. The only Presidential choice we have now is Kerry, and he's really not a bad guy on the issues. His record speaks a lot louder than his words, and he's got a long progressive one. One of the most progressive in the Senate.

Our job is now to elect Kerry and to get as many progressives and liberals in Congress as we can.

The other guys know what their job is, and they're not fooling around arguing over small stuff.

[Guaranteed]

273. NO- it's one HUGE part. HUGE.

But, you're right- it's not about the war.

It's about leadership.

[IndianaGreen]

275. The war is not "a small part" to the families of the fallen

"The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster."

Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero
Prime Minister elect

[PeopleForChange]

5. I'm sure the DU folks...

would love to hear that it's become more and more like Kerry Underground. Any negative attacks on Kerry is no longer allowed, which defeats the purpose of the name "Democratic Underground" and its mission statement, which is this:

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.

This is a "big tent" message board. We welcome a wide range of progressive opinion. You will likely encounter many points of view here that you disagree with.

So basically this defeats the purpose of negative attacks on Kerry from progressives of all stripes.

That, I don't like.

Power to the People!

PFC

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Nice site. From the looks of this thread you all seem to want 4 more yrs

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5321

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Exgeneral]

89. at least they let him speak

they don't have to agree you know, to let his opinion be posted. Is THAT what you think this is all about?

[Hav]

97. .

Look, no one here gets banned because of civil discussions ok? And I wouldn't complain about normal discussions or simple disagreements.
But when you tear down Democrats every day with almost every post with the same smears and insults, then you should reconsider whether Democratic Underground is the right forum for you to attack Democrats with baseless smears. That's all what this is about.

[Kanary]

155. There are those who attack EVERY thread about Kucinich

But I don't notice anyone actually speaking up and letting them know that's not OK.

Being a Democrat (of the highest order) Dennis certainly doesn't deserve the abuse he gets here.

Kanary

Another Delusional Diehard for Dennis!!

Kucinich 2004!

[LizW]

13. Huh?

I don't understand. Are some of you saying PFC is a bad site? Did anyone read the mission statement? Did you miss the ads at the top of the page that say "Elect John Kerry"?

Whatever. Thanks for posting the link, though. I had been wondering where all those folks took off to. I appreciate your helping me find them again.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. Read the thread I posted

Their front page can say whatever it wants...it doesn't mean they intend to live true to it.

I didn't say it was a good or bad site, although I hardly miss the people posting on that thread.

[Exgeneral]

98. Just spell the name right

is my input.

I gather those people want the same things as all of us-
Beat Bush
Decrease the influence of corporate lobbyists
dismantle the war machine

Values that could get you tombstoned some places.

[madfloridian]

113. Nice comment.

There are many nice threads there as well. It is just an ordinary board with ordinary people who have varied opinions.

I intend to post both places. I also post at Bartcop and Smirking Chimp. I am not rejected there. In fact, most boards treat Dean supporters as just regular Democrats who love their country.

I will vote for Kerry, but no oaths. I do not criticize him.

I may not agree with the viewpoints of some who post at these forums, but I do not insult them. That is why America has always been so great. We could disagree with our leaders. We could disagree with our party.

There are nice people everywhere, but they do not all march to one's own personal drummer.

[PeopleForChange]

50. No problem

Most of us has left DU because of certain people who has been rude to us. We founded another website so we can speak our minds, and not be restricted under DU-Primary 2004 rules. We wanted to speak out what we felt without being alerted on by people who disagrees with us and try to tout the Kerry line. I said I would vote for Kerry, but I won't support him, that's all Kerry earned. What I want to do is support and provide for my local candidate who deserves more than Kerry.

Power to the People

People for Change

[WilliamPitt]

15. Jeez, it's like reading posts from the DU graveyard

[sangh0]

27. Blog of the Living Dead?

nt

[edzontar]

95. Or Blog of the Unafraid and Free to Disagree?

You wouldn't like it in any case, my friend.

[WilliamPitt]

107. So people are not free to disagree here?

News to me.

See? I'm disagreeing with you.

Look...I'm still here!

Still here!

Still here!

Still here!

...wait...

...yup...

Still here.

[edzontar]

109. DU has not become the echo chamber that some of its less enlightened

Members have been calling for.

And I hope it stays relatively open in the future.

But PFC has tried to adopt a different model.

It may work---who knows?

[mitchum]

278. We'll see about that...

or maybe it's already "An Echo Chamber of One's Own"

[madfloridian]

117. There are different kinds of disagreements.

There are some that mean we just don't believe the same things, but there are no insults involved.

The ones that are the worst are the posts that involve sarcasm and putdowns to get across their points.

That is what is happening here more frequently. Treating others as inferiors does not work, and using condescension is a poor tactic as well. These are just general statements to explain how I feel. Not directed at anyone.

I just hit 8000 posts, been here since 2002, June, I think. I intend to stay. I intend to continue posting at the new board, Bartcop, and Smirking Chimp and others.

I do not insult people, and I do not put them down. I won't do it, either.

I will vote for Kerry, I will not criticize him, but no oaths of allegiance.

[WilliamPitt]

120. Why wouldn't you criticize him?

That seems to be an uneasy vow, especially if/when he deserves it.

[madfloridian]

174. Then I would do it privately, not here.

I would write an email or call the campaign. It is not productive to do it here now.

[VelmaD]

121. Want me to poke you...

just to make sure you're really still here? ;-)

[Exgeneral]

102. That could have been the title of Kerry's blog

in July 03

[PeopleForChange]

57. And yet.....

you wonder what happened to some of the longtime contributers of DU? They have moved over to PFC and posting and trying to support a very good and like-minded (no censorship allowed) people over there.

[mzmolly]

145. No Censorship?

Sorry but that depends on who you ask. I think it's the most hypocritical board around.

**Let's pretend we are open minded and demand cult like thinking - is more like it**

At least DU is honest about it's intentions, and has user rules and warnings before someone is banned.

Can't say the same for the great People For Conformity.

Great people post there for the most part, but a few vocal narrow minded asses are pretty much in charge.

Just my .02 cents

:hi:

A much better forum for those interested is...

http://forums-new.deanforamerica.com/

It's Dean-centric, but really is open to everyone.

[drfemoe]

149. I know where you're coming from

.. but the biggest threat seems to be for people who have a problem with the D candidate for the Congressional seat, Ohio 16th District. Dissent on that topic is verboten.

The old forum is still there, renamed the "Inner Circle". Hidden from public view. Hypocritical you say? How about sneaky and contrived?

[Cheswick2.0]

171. When did anyone ever criticize Jeff at PFC? You didn't

It was only when you got all upset at the site for allowing new members, that you spoke up about anything. If I remember correctly you were affraid Skinner would find out you were disloyal to DU. You actually went into quite a rant about that.

You can stop trying so hard to undo some imaginary damage to your standing at DU. I am sure Skinner knows that members of DU occasionally post on other forums. He's a big boy.

As for your problem with a certain candidate, I have seen you post lots of slander and no proof.

PS... the forum does have a private forum just like DU does, where administration can administrate. Nice try though! :7

[drfemoe]

188. huh???

I never suggested my loyalty was anywhere other than DU. I never played in the Liebermania games, et al. I never volunteered to go sacrifice my DU membership to fulfill someone else's ego. Quite the contrary.

I could cite many more things. But this is not about ME. Why do you keep wanting to make this about ME? Jeff Seemann is a "public figure". I happen to know he, in particular, did some dirty little tricks from the p4c forum, directed at DU and members here. It is documented. That doesn't mean I post my "proof" on demand. You really must stop trying to beat me over the head with Jeff Seemann. I don't like what I saw. I didn't like it when he wrote that since he hired a "deaf bi-sexual from Texas" that shows he is a champion of "diversity". There is more. Which I will not go into here. This is not about ME. But if it were, you have the story very wrong.

Jeff is a public figure and he is NOT a member of DU. I am a member of DU and a private citizen. Let's keep those points in mind.

[Cheswick2.0]

234. I really must, must I? ROFL

You are the one who keeps bringing him up. But yes he is a public figure, a democrat running for congress and you are an anonymous poster hiding behind a screen name and posting slander.
But of course you can't prove a damn thing because you are making it up.

[RetroLounge]

193. Wow, sour grapes about PFC?

eom

[drfemoe]

150. Looks like the site is supported by Google ads ..

or do you run those for free?

[Exgeneral]

231. tainted love

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

254. Yeah right..no censorship...I would be welcome with open arms

[Old and In the Way]

267. I'd be a proverbial turd in the punchbowl over there, I think (LOL).

I regale in my conformity and my support of John Kerry as the people's choice!

[Exgeneral]

93. Sometimes, you learn a lot from reading tombstones, Mr. Pitt

Especially in an OLD graveyard

[edzontar]

94. Actually it's a pretty vital little site.

The ex-DUers (and present ones too, BTW) who post there are far from "dead," and the diversity of opinion makes PFC anything but a graveyard.

[RetroLounge]

224. Tainted Love

.

[legin]

17. LOL

so another echo of 2002 again. A 'unity drive' results in the complete opposite happening.

No-one could ever accuse people of learning the lessons of our own DU history here.

[redqueen]

19. Post 13 indicates that they support Kerry

Is that not what you see there?

I'm honestly confused by this thread.

Don't Kerry's supporters have more important work to do, or is agitating progressives who are planning to vote for Kerry priority one?

[legin]

21. Don't worry redqueen

I'm with you.

As someone who left/got booted off in 2002, there was a little bit of irony in my post above which was aimed at here.

[redqueen]

36. See, now this I find just mind-boggling

I mean, is this really what happened in the midterms? And the same scenario is playing out as before?

Things seem to be worse than they appeared to be when I first replied to you.

Oy!

[sangh0]

62. That's not what happened

At least, not in real life. I can't comment on what goes on in legin's mind.

The 2002 campaign took place while Congress was debating IWR. There was no unity on DU, just as there has never been unity on DU over the IWR vote. legin's depiction of a unity drive is a delusion that is easily refuted by pointing out the context of the 2002 campaign.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

72. Please note the lack of a refutation

My entire post was based on real events. No posters were harmed while composing that post.

[legin]

63. My impression is that it is not quite as bad as the mid-terms

but maybe I'm just used to it by now. ;-)

The mid-terms one was sparked of by a Hillary thread just after she had voted for the war resolution. It was kind of an I/P thing too, because we had got pretty fed up with her pandering down there. Anyway 3 of the best posters on the board got thrown off. A unity drive started, you had to say the right things otherwise a you got descended upon by 'self-elected enforcers, freepers seeing the disunity logged in and stirred it to the maximum of their capabilities, and a lot of people left and another board started up.

Basically the complete opposite of unity happened.

[sangh0]

66. Why those three posters were banned

Those three posters wree banned for actively campaigning AGAINST a Democrat and encouraging DUers to NOT vote Dem. That is against the rules. Always has been

Can you find a flimsier argument that has generated as many threads and posts as this one over such a concetrated period of time?

This is outright lie. No one ever got banned for NOT saying something. What legin is referring to is that many disagreed with those three. For some reason, legin thinks free speech means only s/he can criticize.

[redqueen]

70. Well thanks for providing some insight

from the other side of the table, sangh0.

Let's hope that enough people from both sides of this debate have the lessons down by November, at least!

[sangh0]

73. Not insight

It's based on what Skinner said when he banned those three posters. legin chooses to ignore the inconvenient facts in order to invent some sort of unity drive.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

251. Not accurate..they were banned for inciting a protest at Hillary's office

just days before the election and two were let back in after they wrote to Skinner. The third reregistered under other names and antagonized...and of course participated on another board where he and another member posted John Poindexter's home address which had the board administrator flip her lid and post the personal addresses of all the members of that board on the internet.

[IndianaGreen]

281. The truth is that Hillary called the riot police to remove peace...

demonstrators from her office that were petitioning her to vote against the war in Iraq.

Some liberal that Hillary!

The same thing happened in Indiana in the offices of Evan Bayh:

www.nuvo.net/archive/2003/03/26/faces_of_dissent.html

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

285. Not as I recall it..although the thread is now gone

besides..your blog is from March of 03...the midterms were in November of 02...and in that conflict I stuck up for you...little did I realize you would use your participation to spread false propaganda...slam Kerry for his WAR vote while actually PROMOTING Edwards who STILL thinks his vote and the war were the right thing to do.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. Post 13 is one of many..the majority are closer to this

Kerry is so pathetic. He'll only say this sort of thing behind people's backs.

What a wimp.

And now he says he was talking about Republican "attack dogs". He's a freaking liar too.

[redqueen]

32. I promise you, NSMA, I could say much, MUCH worse

But I'll still vote for him.

You won't be able to shut everyone up that disagrees with you. Just be glad they'll be voting for him and work for cooperation.

This calling people out and insulting them for being in disagreement is petty and stupid.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. I have never tried to shut you or anyone else up

Rebutting you is as much my right as you claim it is your right to criticize...free speech works that way...you can say what you wish and I can take you to task for it.

But I do think it is humorous that when one is challenged (and I don't mean you personally) they will whine that someone is trying to shut them up..

nothing could be further from the truth.

When I challenge people, I WANT them to respond...funny...that is whn they usually suffer an attack of cyber laryngitis

[redqueen]

42. LOL

Yes that's true. Didn't mean to imply that was your goal.

However in seeing this thread's OP and the responses to those who posted RW crapola in the other thread on GD, that was the impression I got, that they wanted people to stop repeating, discussing, or thinking about the RW crap. I think it's good to know your enemy, personally, and that, to me, includes their weapons of choice (specific propoganda, in this case).

[slinkerwink]

45. and that's what we need to know in defending the nominee

[redqueen]

51. Agreed

I think Gore made the mistake of trying to take the high road. This time we have to get down in the mud and fight with them. The other option is failure, and that's no option!

[slinkerwink]

54. exactly! we have to fight dirty whether we like it or not...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. I realize that and have always appreciated my exchanges with you

I tend to distinguish criticism that is constructive from criticism that is DESTRUCTIVE..

[redqueen]

67. Gotcha

And I do appreciate the difference re: criticisms. I'm sure I've skirted if not outright overstepped that line in the past. And I'll probably do it again. It's that passion thing. :)

I just hope if you ever have to call me on the carpet for engaging in destructive criticism (again?), that you do it with a gentle hand, since I do have only the best intentions for this party in my heart. Which explains my ardent defense of anyone who is, as I am, disillusioned by this party yet still hopeful for it.

I hope that made sense. Stupid job. ;)

[tobius]

59. Will he say those lines again loud and clear ? or will he shift it to past

campaign operatives?

[slinkerwink]

23. they have nothing better to do other than fostering disunity instead of

unity here.

[legin]

31. Don't go hedgehog on me slinkerwink

you are one my 'fav' posters here. :spank:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. If you are making up crap about Kerry..what is there for me to unify with

you about?

Frankly, I can't wait for the administrator of that board to be faced with the psychopathic rantings of some of those members and be forced to make a decision regarding their participation.....

[PeopleForChange]

61. We had one problematic poster

and we dealt with her appropriately.

She comes back here and is still as bad as ever.

[redqueen]

34. Well that would seem to be the case

but it just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. At least not AFAIC. I guess, once again, people just disagree. (Imagine that!) ;)

[sangh0]

53. " once again, people just disagree" - Not true

When they "just disagree" with you, it's "They're trying to shut me up!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x462089#462346

[tobius]

68. very good. nt

[redqueen]

71. If you read the OP here,

as well as the thread provided by the poster of the OP when I asked what this was all about, you'll note that the request is being made, actually.

on edit: See, this is a good example of why we have problems in having conversations, sangh0. If you bothered to read the very next two posts, you would have seen the subject clarified. So why post this anyway? Did you miss the following posts? Or are you just pursuing your agenda, despite the veracity of your statements?

[sangh0]

74. wrong

a request is not "trying to make me shut up". One uses no force, the other does use force.

No force was used, and no posters were harmed while composing this post.

[redqueen]

78. Again, we just disagree

I see harassment and abusive commentary as an attempt to silence someone.

So do you think, when freepers shout down and insult anyone who disagrees with bush, that that's just a statement of their views? That they're not trying to shut anyone up?

[sangh0]

81. No,. not just a disagreement. I"m right, you're wrong

I see harassment and abusive commentary as an attempt to silence someone.

And some people see pink elephants in their bathroom.

Regardless of what you "see", harrassment and avusive comments are NOT force.

So do you think, when freepers shout down and insult anyone who disagrees with bush, that that's just a statement of their views?

One cannot shout on DU. IRL, when someone shouts, it can drown out others. Not on DU. Your posts still come through loud and clear no matter how the other posts are CAPITALIZED.

[redqueen]

82. And here you resort to what I've come to expect

so this is where we part ways! :)

[sangh0]

86. We agree on that

When you start in with the hyperbole, like how you "see" people trying to shut you up, we part ways

83. hmmmm

"I see harassment and abusive commentary as an attempt to silence someone.
And some people see pink elephants in their bathroom."

Well, this is the internet and not a relationship, but I'm guessing that if a man and a woman were married to each other and the man engaged in harassment and abusive commentary towards her, the woman might get the idea somewhere somehow that there was an attempt being made to silence someone.

Whether there were any dt's and pink elephants in the bathroom or white house at the time or not.

[redqueen]

85. Gee, d'ya think?

:)

[sangh0]

87. We're not married

so please stop saying that! :-)

[redqueen]

91. If we were, we'd be the Bickersons, for sure! n/t

;)

[sangha]

180. That's my neighbors

They never shut up, and they just got a puppy I'm certain they won't train.

92. I don't know what to say

I've been trying to come up with some witty repartee, but the best I've got is
Now that I know this bugs you I'm holding it in reserve for a future engagement. Whoops, bad pun there. Damn subconscious. Ok, for a future foray:evilgrin:

[legin]

96. WOW !!! You can see pink elephants in your bathroom !!!

I told you the stuff you were smoking was better than mine. :P

edit: but mine is still good enough for me to leave the key words out of a sentence.

[sangha]

210. Of course not, silly

Not since I painted the bathroom pink

[Exgeneral]

235. I disagree

when someone resorts to "Im right" as an argument, their life is a Monty Python skit.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. Well the lesson of 2000 "there is no difference" has not been learned yet

either.
No one could ever accuse people of learning what happens when you divide the momentum of those left of center. Even if it has happened in Germany, France and elsewhere around the world with the same disastrous results.

as I said...some people want permanent status in the underground..maybe they are just more comfortable there...it feeds into this need that people who have lived a decent life have to feel oppressed.

[Old and In the Way]

274. LOL

You have a way with words..... :-)

[legin]

25. The question that has to be asked is

there was a 'unity drive' in 2002 which was totally counter-productive.

This years 'unity drive' seems to have been equally counter-productive.

So why do them ?

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeopleForChange]

58. If you bother to take a look at DU version 1.0

PFC is just like that.

We at the PFC were just looking at the older version of DU and wondering what had happened to DU now.

[VelmaD]

20. So that's where tombstoned DUers...

go when they "die".

[RetroLounge]

201. Actually, no, we're not tombstoned.

We're just bi-forum. We can do both.

but thanks for asking :)

[edzontar]

241. I go to plenty of forums. Even use different names on some of em. So what?

Just keep repeating to yourself:

"It's only a web site, only a web site..."

[madfloridian]

245. I am not dead nor am I tombstoned. I go there. And....

I go to many other forums as well. I use different names at some. There is nothing wrong with that.

Most of the posts there are mighty good, and most do not criticize Kerry.

However, other forums do. This is one of the few that discourages any criticism. Another is the DNC forum, and they don't like dissent.

I am not dead, nor banned, nor tombstoned.

[Forkboy]

258. I just registered yesterday!

Thanks for your welcome :D

[madfloridian]

261. You are welcome.

:hi:

[PeopleForChange]

41. Not really

We want to work the Dean model that will help the progressive minded people all over the US elected locally. I am working on a campaign.

We are all inspired by the Dean movement. If you were once too, then PFC is for you, otherwise Kerry will just have no coattails to work with, and that's for himself, not for us. We will provide Kerry the necessary votes to win, but won't contribute to his mortgage loan. He has to earn the trust of these fine folks who have placed their trust in Dean. That is exactly what Dean means "non-transferable support". Kerry has to earn it not buy it.

Power to the people!

People for Change

[OKNancy]

80. Oh my god

I looked at other parts of that site......they hate Kerry.
Lots of familar names...such a shame.

[KC21304]

111. Now don't say that , Nancy. Are you just trying to shut them up ? LOL

[Exgeneral]

205. I think they are within their bounds

to be unhappy with the candidate thus far.
What , after all, is "Underground" about a mainstream view?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

259. ROFL...so the underground railroad and the French Underground

were FRINGE advocates? I think not. You simply prove my point that some people are so privileged in their life that they have to INVENT a reason to be uunderdogs.

The POINT of an underground is to operate under the register until it is safe to see the light of day...not to relegate ones self to permanent victim status by continually taking ineffectual actions.

[Democat]

139. Of course they want 4 more years of Bush

That way they can say they were right about the candidate they wanted. You know the one, the candidate that couldn't even get more votes than Kerry from Democrats. :)

148. really?

I don't want 4 more years of Bush.

If you're not with us,you're against us. Is that what you're saying?

Where have I heard that before?

[MessiahRp]

154. Wow what a bunch of assholes...

You're right everyone posting on that thread should fuck off.

Let them vote for Nader and be so far in the minority that they never get what they want...

Meanwhile I'm voting to take my country back, and Kerry's the only choice.

Rp

[RetroLounge]

299. I post there and here. So now I am here. In you face.

So call me an asshole, and tell me to fuck off here to my face.

I am not tombstoned.

I am not voting for Nader.

I am not in the Minority.

I am voting for Kerry.

So you were saying? I'm waiting...

RL

[ModerateDem]

177. Yeah, great site. Not.

I hope those people are joking around when they use grammar that is this bad.

From the site:

Oh but the accusation will play. They will play it over and over and over and over again. And it is a flat out lie, or course. (Oh the irany.) The problem is, will Kerry call them on the lie? I don't see how he can becase Kerry is of the same economic School as Bush. Kerry beleieve just as Bush dose that a strong economee is made when "you invest" in indistreys and corperations.

I really hope that person is trying to imitate Bush or something, because that person appears to be incredibly stupid.

[nomaco-10]

184. This type of post is exactly why ......

so many people have left du and sought other places to post. The pure venom and vitriol oozing from so many posters is stifling and cruel.
What do you know about the author of this post? Did it ever occur to you that maybe this person may have had to overcome adversities in his life to even be able to type at all? Does it not dawn on you that this person is a good democrat with feelings and that making fun of his post on a message board might cause him some discomfort and embarrassment.
I post here less and less and when I do wander in, it all comes streaming back to me just why it was I quit posting here regularly to begin with.

[ModerateDem]

186. Lol

Sorry if I don't share your level of tolerance for subversives who are trying to undermine the Democratic Party.

[Forkboy]

197. I sense the ghost of Col Jack T. Ripper

Look out,they might be trying to get your precious bodily fluids next!

[snoochie]

202. I agree with you

Whatever your disagreements with someone mocking them just makes you look like a freeper. Nitpicking meaningless details and ignoring the substance is especially bad form!

And besides I saw a pro-Kerry and anti-Kucinich post on another thread that was RIDDLED with errors, but none of the responses bothered to ridicule him for being stupid.

[Crunchy Frog]

244. No, I know who that particular poster is

on the basis of his spelling and grammar, and it is unfair to regard him as being representative of the site in general, despite the fact that I do have other concerns about it.

[madfloridian]

263. You have concerns about it?

Each forum is different. We have some great people there, and I know a lot of them not only from DU but other places.

[papau]

8. Negative attacks on Kerry are scheduled for 1/20/05 - a time and a

place for such is obviously then - and not now.

:-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. Oh no..check out their site,....the time to attack Kerry is now...

[Hav]

9. aww

No negative attacks on Kerry are tolerated? On a democratic forum? :(
I'm gonna cry now.

[OKNancy]

76. The purpose of this website is to beat Bush

Skinner has written this many, many times.

[kiahzero]

166. Um, no

Negative attacks are allowed. Flat out lies and slander, the type that generally finds traction at right-wing websites, that's the kind of thing that's banned.

[mitchum]

277. Welcome to DU! KERRY 2004! KERRY 2004! KERRY 2004!

[redqueen]

6. What are you talking about?

:shrug:

[KC21304]

12. Nothing really important I guess. Just this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1234334

[redqueen]

14. Much ado about nothing, in other words

:eyes:

[KC21304]

18. Guess so.

[slinkerwink]

26. lol---CRUSH THE DISSENT! WHO NEED THE LEFTIES anyway????

Silly people here....we are allowed to criticize Kerry, and to cheer him on in here. Just because you're offended that we're trying to bring the reality of right-wing trash pieces on here so that we can respond to them through DBunker on Kerry's site doesn't mean that we support those right-wing trash pieces.

It's all about knowing how to defend the nominee.

[Padraig18]

28. Purge! Purge! Purge! Purge! Purge! Purge! Purge! Purge! Purge! Purge!

I wanna see the streets of DU run red with rivers of leftist blood! :P

[slinkerwink]

29. hey----let's all sit at the back of the bus so we won't threaten a kerry

win...forget gay marriages, etc, and the anti-war left movement...;-)

[Padraig18]

35. After you, Mrs, Parks.

What part of "I'm here, I'm queer--get over it!" do you think they don't get yet, slinker?;)

[slinkerwink]

47. you know what? I'll make a sign saying that and sit at the back of a bus

and take a picture of that. How's that?

[Padraig18]

49. Works for me.

Can we be LOUD if we hafta sit in the back of the bus? :P

[slinkerwink]

52. sure! and let's do spitballs at those heterosexual freepers!

;-) with a rainbow-themed straw, of course.

[Padraig18]

56. But of course!

And we can scream "MARY!" whenever we hit one. :P

[slinkerwink]

60. hey....I don't want a freeper to think I'm asking him to marry me....

::shudders::

[Padraig18]

64. Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Freeper babies! :puke:

[mitchum]

282. Give me a break! They're not leftists by any fucking stretch...

of the imagination. It's just a sewing circle/playhouse/pity party.

[madfloridian]

289. Where is this pity party stuff coming from.

I have heard this several times in reference to us. We are just fine. No pity parties for us.

[mitchum]

290. You are an exception, madfloridian...

and I mean that in all sincerity.
I have never witnessed any shrillness or distortions from you.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Like that nice piece of propaganda you posted claiming that Kerry

supported drilling in ANWR?

[redqueen]

38. I just have one question

I remember that piece. I was fooled by it, briefly. Is it impossible to imagine others were fooled as well?

Did they post it again, after it was debunked?

edit: okay, make that two questions. :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. No because she continued to run with the thread after having it pointed

out and yes it was posted again by another Du'er and she commented on that thread even after she knew it was untrue...

That is what I consider PROPAGANDA and I likewise consider it DELIBERATE.

[slinkerwink]

43. because I was concerned about how a quote from a second party

could be used to undermine the nominee, and as I recall, most of my comments on that thread were about how Kerry needs to get better reins on his spokespeople.

[redqueen]

48. Well I'm not going to go back and check

just to sort this out. I prefer to assume, as fellow progressives and future Kerry-voters, that we share the best possible motives. We may cross swords in the 'how', but the 'what' is set and we're committed to acheiving it.

[slinkerwink]

39. hey----didja check out my thread here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=459793&mesg_id=459793&page=

By the way, my vote for Kerry is mainly a vote against Bush.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. No i've stopped reading your posts

but that was a nice thread for a change

[slinkerwink]

46. lol.....oh, NMSA, you crack me up...

[Exgeneral]

100. He didn't support the drilling in ANWR?

That's news to me.
I know you keep up on this NSMA
clarify his position please?
and send it to Pete NYC's site btw.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

132. No he didn't and what is the deal with Pete's site?

[Exgeneral]

208. I thought it would be a good addition

Because I am honestly under the impression that Kerry stated ANWR was on the table to get some union endorsement.

That's the buzz in Seattle amongst the aerospacers.
Where might I find info to the contrary?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

238. I don't know where one goes to prove a negative..where might we find

proof of your assertion other than a bunch of lying blogs all created by disgruntled Dean fans?

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Kerry_Energy_+_Oil.htm

[madfloridian]

268. That is a little overstated.

About Dean blogs. I am sorry, but that is just not true.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

279. OK

http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/006334.html
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/2/19/232241/187/13

[madfloridian]

280. The first one is by a guy named Dean Esmay.

I don't think he is a Dean supporter.

The 2nd at kos is comments from various people. Markos was a Dean supporter for while, but quickly moved on. There are comments there slamming everyone but God. They don't play favorites, and they are not Dean bloggers.

I am upset because I know a lot of the Dean Bloggers. They are into other things now, and I have not seen them slamming Kerry. They are remaining as a part of the org, and they are just not about that now. Two had Kerry facts, but they took them down last week.

Peace, ok?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

283. OK

Look, I don't say ALL supporters of any candidate do ALL things and I am clear that is not the case..but the rumor was actually started here at DU and continued by a very vocal Dean supporter who KNEW it was false.

Peace right back at you :D

[shoopnyc123]

77. This thread is scary...

What is the deal? I was hoping that all the hard feelings would be gone, but they're not, even AFTER Dean's endorsement. Wow.

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5321

:cry:

[redqueen]

79. It IS scary

It seems that no degree of appeasement will satisfy some.

[trumad]

84. Rookie forum users....

The site posted above will soon implode from the weight of attacks from their fellow members...I've been on plenty of forums that no longer exist because they allowed pretty much anything...

The owner of the site will eventually get so burned out from the infighting that he/she will simply fold tent. Awwww..this forum thinks they're so clever and that they're one up on DU because of their er...supposed freedom....

From the looks of things over there the virus is already spreading and it will soon infect the whole shiiibang.... I've seen it happen to many a good forum...

Good Luck..You're gonna need it...

[Exgeneral]

101. Let us hope you're wrong Trumad

After all much has been made of the demise of DU also

[Old and In the Way]

90. Fascinating website.

So that's where all the kool kids go to diss Kerry.

Good for them....they needed their own private echo chamber.

[KoKo]

103. Good Riddance, you say!

:D

[edzontar]

104. I find all this hostility to a new website to be ridiculous.

PFC is not DU.

It is a new place.

It is not anti-Kerry, but it is not limited to oath-takers either.

It is a DIVERSE board, rather like the old DU, although rooted in the Dean Movement and some of its advocates here.

I hope that people of good will and OPEN MINDs will feel fre to stop by once ina while.

As for the rest, PLEASE feel free to give it a pass.

[KoKo]

105. I hope you understood my........irony....edzontar.

:-)'s

[edzontar]

108. Sorry!!! I think I conencted to the wrong post.

Anyway there is a measure of hostility here--see above--and I think it's silly, but no from you, of course..my bad....

[KoKo]

116. No Problem....definitely an "element of hostility." Probably "ignore" is

best medicine. After all rather than attacking "People for Change," they could be over there in "Freeperville" trying to attack the people who really deserve to have their minds enlightened. :-)'s

[Old and In the Way]

230. Hostility? None whatsoever from me.

I just don't know why a certain group needs to set up a site to basically diss the Democratic candidate. That appears to be the only differentiating aspect between the DU and the P4C.

I don't know, maybe it's a special kind of group therapy.

106. Yes

Isn't the idea to have more and more voices for change instead of fewer and fewer??:toast:

[edzontar]

115. Some of our friends don;t seem to see it that way.

From what they write, I get the impression that they wish everyone would just shut up and think and do whatever they say.

[trumad]

114. It is not anti-Kerry

ROTFLMAO

Did you read any of the comments overs there.... It's big time anti-Kerry....

God what a bunch of whiny little crybaby's over there....

[KoKo]

118. I'm not there alot, but I signed up, and haven't seen what you are saying

except that the site isn't designed to be totally "lock step," methinks.

It's another discussion forum where people on the "Left" of the Dem party can feel they won't be attacked. What's wrong with that?

Why did it need to be discussed here on DU? Unless it's seen as a threat. But, there are more threats to Dems than the Left of the Party working to wake up sleeping Dems to the dangers that face us.

What's wrong with energizing grassroots and building a counterforce to what Gingrich did on the Right Wing?

Shouldn't Dems want to have a grassroots effort being built for change in our party? :shrug:

[KoKo]

123. Moved post, delete.

[trumad]

158. It ain't that

it's the high and mighties who think they're on to somethin when they aint on to nothin!

[madfloridian]

161. Trumad, who are the high and mighties?

Could you clarify? I am really confused here. There are forums all over the internet. What is wrong with that?

[Old and In the Way]

239. Nothing wrong with that.

Very interesting that I recognize so many names there. Seems like a subset of DU, actually. Maybe the "DU for non lock-steppers". Splintering into a subgroup, by definition, is not a uniting principle, but I imagine there's a lot of value in group/self-reinforcement of your worldview.

[madfloridian]

248. Well, actually I don't need reinforcement of my worldview.

I just like it there. It is another forum, the only difference that it started as a bunch of Dean supporters. Now it is branching out and it is pretty nice place.

I am not sure about the splintering into a subgroup. We just have not been very welcome here, and needed a place to go for while.

Do you consider other forums in the same way? There are many around, you know.

[Forkboy]

260. Someone who roots for purges

is the last person we should worry about when talking about "reinforcing worldviews". ;-)

[drfemoe]

147. You don't even have access to the best part ..

most of the original members, and others that were invited later, post real stuff in the "Inner Circle" which is not viewable by the "public". What could be more democratic than a smoky back room with an invisible locked door? Shadow government thing. Rather than appear elitist and invitation only, the admin and his followers decided to just HIDE the secret part! Not elitist at all. Nope. Freedom lovers all.

[slinkerwink]

153. that inner circle is about Dean, and we didn't want to carry over

our Dean discussion into the general discussion boards, so that's why we created that small forum which isn't being used anyway lately. We've changed our focus from Dean to progressive Democrat races in the country.

[drfemoe]

159. Who are you trying to convince?

I don't have amnesia, Slinker. I know perfectly well what is in the "Inner Circle".

[slinkerwink]

163. and I know well what you did in there which caused you to be banned

enough said. oh, and please stop playing the victim card.

[drfemoe]

219. the main brain

got p-o'd because I declined to go play in the new "public" forums and took exception to being hounded day and night to go post in the new "public" forum so it doesn't look dead and gives the appearance of being occupied, etc etc.... I didn't take orders, IOW.

I was banned from the "Inner Circle" after I posted a negative opinion about your boss over here at DU. I knew what would happen. I predicted it. Since it was my choice to walk into the fire, I don't feel victimized in the least.

I will continue to stress that this is not about ME, a private DU citizen. It is about a public figure running for a federal office, the group of "Dean supporters" who do his bidding, and the forum from which they organize. I can understand trying to move the spotlight to ME because these issues are not pleasant. But I am NOT the message here. Merely one messenger.

[slinkerwink]

222. you did untrue smears about him by calling him a child molester, etc

You did yourself no favors by doing that, and in doing so, totally discredited yourself.

It's so fucking silly that PFC is created for Jeff Seemann when it isn't. Get that silly notion out of your head, for christ's sake..:eyes:

[drfemoe]

249. um no

I did not call him a child molester. The original post seems to have been deleted. What I did was ask someone if they would vote for a child molester just because they were running as a Democrat.

I know you are a very trusting soul, Slinkerwink. Please learn as quickly as possible that you cannot believe everything someone tells you. It did make me sick when he asked you to shake your naked butt in his face. I just don't think that was appropriate. I'm from a much older generation than you, so maybe we take different views of (married) men who talk to young women in that manner.

My opinion regarding his lack of judgment about what is appropriate behavior for a congressional candidate is beyond measure.

[madfloridian]

164. Actually, not that much. Not really much at all.

It started as a respite place. Most of us know that Dean has a different role to play right now, a powerful one. It is actually quite boring now.

In fact, most folks there are really nice.

[RetroLounge]

204. How's those sour grapes taste?

Seriously, people whining about another forum? Why?

Aren't there like 10 million forums and blogs on the net?

What's the deal with the hate against this one? Would it be something personal? Just asking...

RL

[Old and In the Way]

243. Too funny.

Sort of like "Skull and Bones", no?

[drfemoe]

276. Funny, yeah

Especially for those folks who join believing they have found a new progressive forum, totally unaware of what lies beneath the surface. Joke is on them I guess.

[TreasonousBastard]

256. There's a "Dean movement"?

Fascinating.

It's getting tough to keep up with all the movements out there.

(I had a movement of another kind this morning)

[tishaLA]

112. Jeez. It doesn't get much more sad

Look at this post:

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5116

At least Dean requested an African American roomate and Yale gave him 2. How many African American roomates did Kerry request when he was in college?

Two, I believe. One to make his bed and the other to clean his bathroom.

[KoKo]

126. Geeze........voyeurs going over to another Dem site and trashing it?

Please. This is really an unbelievable "turn off."

[tishaLA]

127. I trashed the post, not the site

I don't doubt that there is some good stuff there. But really now...painting Kerry as someone who has African Americans around only to make his bed and to clean his bedroom is just over the top IMHO.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

140. actually a pretty racist statement

wow how prgressive ( or shall I say REGRESSIVE)

[madfloridian]

124. There are some great posts there on other topics.

So you are saying that no one ANYWHERE is to diss Kerry? Are you aware of how that sounds?

I don't criticize him, but I would like to know I could if I wanted to do so.

I will vote for him.

This "don't criticize Kerry" stuff is scary.

[curse10]

110. Eh. It's a lame site.

With equally lame participants. They just get to preach to the choir there.

Let them have their Dean worship.

And, for the record, it's not anything like the early days of DU. I was here for the early days of DU and the only thing that "ruined" DU was the influx of rabid so-called "progressives" chanting the Dean mantra.

[madfloridian]

119. I post there, and I am not lame. Are you saying we are all lame?

I am just wondering about that.

[trumad]

122. You're only lame because you love in Florida...

;-)

[curse10]

125. I won't be baited into a personal attack

sorry

[KoKo]

128. This post was a "flame bait" in the first place. DU'ers trashing other DU

folks. How low can one go...:shrug:

[OKNancy]

130. I read a lot of posts over there and there is plenty of DU

trashing. I'd be pretty pissed if I were DU admin.

[edzontar]

138. Du Admin. runs this board. PFC is another place.....

I try to respect the rules when I am here....but the DU rules end at the next site, and folks over there have the right to complain if they want about this place, or Bartcop, or Media Horse, or anywhere else.

I don't belong to any organized politcal party--I am a Democrat!!!!

[KC21304]

141. As the one who started this thread I feel I should respond.

I don't think I was out of line to think DUers should not be bringing the worst Kerry bashing trash from other sites, just because it is out there.

I have never objected to criticism of Kerry by DU members, as the administration said is allowed. I did not think this included what ever trash could be found outside, and then not having to comment on it.

Neither have I commented on the other site which has come up in this thread. That doesn't bother me in the least.

[HuskerDem]

170. It's NOT another DU and nobody is making you stay in this one

If you are so offended and dissapointed here maybe you should consider all of your options. Nobody is forcing you to remain in this forum which makes you so uncomfortable.

[OKNancy]

129. I thought that remark was funny too

" like the old DU ". They weren't even here for the old DU. And there has always been a lot of grousing, for example the Nader vs Gore threads have been going on for three+ years.

[Cheswick2.0]

134. wrong

I was here from the first few months of DU. Skinner might find it very curious that you think this place has been ruined. Frankly the most distasteful thing about this thread is the incredible ignorance that people here show to other democrats.
So some people don't like Kerry. Given the filthy campaign he ran are you surprised? Even if some people are too dumb to know it... he does need the votes and support of a lot of people he has pissed off. I suggest he get cracking and do something to deserve that support. Stealing Dean's best lines simply will not be enough. He is going to prove he has people's interests at heart, not just the desire to be President because it's "his turn", and a willingness to suck up corporate lobbyist's money to get him there.

So far he seems like an arrogant asshole to me. I sure hope he has another side.

PS.. and no, I will not be posting the standard disclaimer about who I am voting for.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

146. self portrait?

137. I came up with a new standard disclaimer

"I am going to vote for Kerry, but since we still have a secret ballot in the United States, even if you knew who I really am, you would have no way of knowing who I really voted for."

[curse10]

151. I don't think du is "ruined"

it's just a mantra that is frequently spewed around here by, surprise surprise, Dean supporters.

And I don't care who the hell you vote for. I've never demanded that anyone vote for anyone. Not that any Dean supporter had that courtesy with me. I was told repeatedly to "get in line" and support Dean.

I've supported Kerry from day one. And I've disliked Dean. Dean isn't a liberal. He's a fucking centrist with state's rights propaganda coming out of his mouth at every turn. And if you want to talk about filthy campaigning? Dean didn't need to do it. He had his supporters do it for him. I was accosted on the fucking streets of Cambridge Mass because I had a Kerry button on and Dean supporters weren't happy about it. And don't get me started with his continued lies about Dennis Kucinich and his stances.

But, wait, Dean is god and can do no wrong :eyes: Fuck Dean.

[Duder]

135. I always thought that forumforkerry was a lame site.

With equally lame participants.

Until they changed it recently, that was by far the most anti-Dean site on the web with thread starters from reputable conservative sources such as the Weekly Standard.

PFC is a thousand times better and more diverse and fun, imo.
Some of the best posters post there as well, but it's probably not a good site for some of the paper thin skinned Kerry worshipers.

[RetroLounge]

207. I post here on DU too. Am I lame?

or am I only lame over there?

please clarify.

RL

[RetroLounge]

300. ***crickets***

eom

[struggle4progress]

133. Don't Squabble. Organize.

It's bad news if Bush gets re-elected. So don't let him get re-elected. Organize! If Bush gets re-elected, then we REALLY better be well-organized. So organize immediately! If Kerry gets elected, he can't please everybody on everything, and he might sometimes need some pushing. To push, what do you need? Organize! There are only so many hours in the day. Why would we spend time squabbling?

[Forkboy]

142. DU has jumped the shark

it's usefulness as a source for info has dropped to almost nil.It's more like Thanksgiving dinner with the in-laws.Lots of rehashing past arguements,very little looking ahead (and by that I mean beyond November as well).

[trumad]

143. LOL...I used that statement 2 years ago on this very forum

I think that was when the forum had 10 thousand members... What?? 30 thou or so ago... Maybe it's you who jumped the shark?

[Forkboy]

144. Dont worry

you still fit in just fine indeed.

[trumad]

156. Well thank you

really///thank you....

[WilliamPitt]

152. Pleasant place

ScottLee:

QUOTE (KoKo @ Mar 11 2004, 11:47 AM)
The story got legs this a.m. because a "TruthOut" employee said a Kerry Operative told him in a bar last Summer that McCain might be VP pick for Kerry.

BWAAAAAhaaahaah!!! Honest to Gods is this how Shill Shitt defines his place in the universe? The guy is a case. A real case.

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5274

====

I guess it must be nice for some people to have a place to post where they won't be banned for being assholes.

Memo to ScottLee: My hard work is where I define my place in the universe. My abilities, which if translated into nickels would become enough money to buy and sell you 30 times before you pull your pants on in the morning, are augmented by that hard work...and also helps to define my place in the universe. Thanks for playing. :)

'Shill Shitt' is a new one, though. I like it. :)

[curse10]

162. You also have an alter ego!

"Oh yes Will Pitt is Wisemen... same old arguments!"

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3&st=105

[Hav]

167. lol

Wasn't that the topic some months ago as well?
Like Will Pitt was pretty much half of DU back then.
He was Kephra (?) and..and...

[tishaLA]

168. Don't forget to mention his

"gimicky hystrionic writing style" :eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

172. I've PM'ed WiseMen on a few occasions

Does that make me crazy? People who talk to themselves are crazy...

[KoKo]

175. People who lurk and post "icognito" on other DU sites are also sort of

well........juvenile...or looking for a fight.....My "dial-up" is straining here now that it's over 100 posts, so I will leave this.

So much talk about trashing a "New Dem to the Left" site. Makes me wonder...it really does.

Talk about "agenda's." Why can't you all just be happy that your candidate seems to be in the lead and get on with what you're doing, rather than going after fellow DU'ers who are committed to "Working for Change in the Party?"

You all don't think the Dem Party needs change? You think it's fine afte what you've seen? Give me a break. :nuke:

[WilliamPitt]

178. Ah, victimhood

[Forkboy]

182. Ah,ignoring the point

[KoKo]

185. Do you know any other means of dialog besides your writing that isn't

Attack! The disconnect between your writing and your DU persona is so great that inquiring minds do wonder! We are NOT your foes. Yet you come out swinging before you think about what we say?

Take No Prisoner's seems to be a mantra. Yet, we are your fellow seekers and doers. :shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

191. ...and insulters and degraders

It boggles the mind to watch you fail completely to appreciate the crassness of your own behavior sometimes. I know I'm a dick. I enjoy that self-awareness. You should try it sometime.

[KoKo]

196. Doesn't deserve an answer, however, displaying a "dick in the face" is not

what I do. Since I don't have that appendage I'm limited, but even if so endowed I would use it to do more fun things, than trash folks on other Liberal Web Sites. :-)'s and Peace to You!

[Forkboy]

199. Finally,something I can agree with you on

I know I'm a dick.

[RetroLounge]

214. So you called yourself a dick

which is in effect a personal attack, on yourself, by you, so can you, like, alert yourself, or something? Or is that like putting instant coffee in a microwave? :shrug:

I'm so confused...

RL

[Guaranteed]

233. Will, I go out of my way not to insult

you or degrade you.

[KoKo]

173. I thought I was being kind in saying: "Truthout Employee." I didn't get

credit for being subtle.....:D As for buying and selling ScottLee.

I don't know this person, but how are you so sure you're superior to her/him? How do you know their net worth, and why is it important whether you have more money or fame than them. This seems like ultimate "limosene Liberal Arrogance." I thought we Dems had gone beyond that, these days.

Why would you take offense to the post anyway. It's what you said here on DU? It alarmed folks here on DU and it was of interest to those on the Left. I was discreet enough not to name names. I didn't think naming you was important to the topic.

I can't get why you all are so whacked out about this site? It says to me there's a "threat" factor. :shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

176. "Shill Shitt"

I do know this person. He posted here for a while, and attacked virtually anyone who dared disagree with him. I'm no limosine liberal, Koko, but I know an asshole when I smell one. As you threw that particular limo-lib line out, I can understand why the crass namecalling ("Shill Shitt") might have gone over your head.

Personally, I'm not threatened by that forum. I'm glad all the poor, afflicted victims of DU have a place to go and rub their collective woes together.

[KoKo]

179. "...poor, afflicted victims of Du?" How much do you make on "Truth Out!"

Can I hit you for a loan? :D

[WilliamPitt]

181. How is that any of your business?

Answer: Not much. Why does that concern you? Are you worried I can't make the payments on my limo?

[KoKo]

187. ROFL! I think that that "Limo" will be coming soon....I do!

It's not just a "dream" in the sky....aways away....the limo is coming, it is.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

189. Will... which of your numerous limos is it this time?

Would that be the Hummer H2 Limo you use for city driving around Boston or the black stretch limo you take out on the weekends to your numerous caviar and wine dinner parties? ;)

[WilliamPitt]

190. It appears to be the Rocket Limo With Parachute Option

Flux Capacitor to travel back in time, torpedo launchers in the undercarriage, and my personal valet is Angelina Jolie. Nothing but the best for the ol' Willster. :)

[KoKo]

192. No....I see it as a "Pope Mobile." White and unadorned except for the

protection which is not visible to the naked eye.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

194. Well it CAN'T be the Pope Mobile...

We all know they stopped making those in the 60s because the VW bus became a little more popular.

[WilliamPitt]

195. I like the idea of a 'Poop Mobile,' though

:)

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

200. Good idea

I know where they get the building materials for that type of vehicle too.

Out of the mouths of some of the loonies on those boards.

[Zomby Woof]

209. Shill Shitt?

That sounds like someone got realllly drunk and called you up at 4AM...

"Hellooooo?? Ish shis Shill Shitt??? I love YOU MAN!" *hic* :-)

[WilliamPitt]

211. Hang on, hang on

*I'm* the drunk around here, remember?

:)

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

220. Drunk?

Damn, why does THAT sound vaguely familiar?

[goobergunch]

236. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"

Also, isn't it highly unconstitutional and immoral to sell people as if they were cattle?

[mitchum]

286. So that's where that pathetic pissant crawled...

I see he's still no funnier in an echo chamber

VROOM! VROOM!

[curse10]

157. And the owner has just ripped off all the forums we have here

really original.

[RetroLounge]

215. Yeah, the whole idea and concept of forums

is (c) by DU.

or not.

[curse10]

218. No

:eyes:

but when you call them the same thing, it is :eyes:

[Guaranteed]

225. What? News and Current Events?

Is that a forum here on DU?

[curse10]

226. Jesus H. Christ

if you can't see it that's your problem, not mine

[Guaranteed]

232. Would "Stuff That Just Happened" be better? nt

[curse10]

252. You know exactly what I'm talking about

I'm not talking about current events.

Science/Environment/Energy -- Oohh! They changed the order!

Media- oh. No "the" I see the difference now!

Civil Rights/Equality/Privacy - Ok. They can use a thesaurus

Healthcare/Education
Discussions on Health Care, Education, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Housing etc- Let's get rid of Social Policy and it's like a whole new forum!

[Guaranteed]

257. Wow. I guess you're right.

They're discussing the same issues over there at People for Change. POLITICAL ones! I would have never noticed.

Maybe THAT'S why my "Ideas for Pool Table Maintenance" forum was never that popular.

[curse10]

262. oooh! Sarcasm!

well, one good thing about that board, the member list makes it nice and easy to see who I should put on my ignore list here. Don't want to see the psychotic babble going on there and I sure as hell don't want to see it here.

[Guaranteed]

But, hey, aren't you going to join us?

We even have the same forums!!

[Guaranteed]

271. Thanks to you, I've now submitted some suggestions for forum

name changes to the PFC admin.

Hopefully, next time you go over there you'll be seeing "Trees/C'hi/Quantum Theory" (I'm also thinking of changing the word order!), "'Let's get together'- the What to do Concerning Other Countries Sing-a-long Forum," and "Methods and Techniques for Brainwashing" (my personal favorite!) These new forums should go a long way in "rebuilding our credibility" and making sure that our site is easily distinguishable from DU.

I give you all the credit, though!

[Forkboy]

264. This is one of the stupidest arguements I've ever seen here

and that's really saying something :eyes:

[RetroLounge]

303. "Yeah, but DU had them first..."

Waaaaaaaaahhhhh freaking Wahhhhhhhhh...

Is this really your argument against PFC?

Have you compared and contrasted forum names for a large statistical sampling of political websites with forums?

or just the usual...

[RetroLounge]

302. Shhhh. Do not dispute with facts.

makes their heads explode...

RL

[Forkboy]

229. Do you have any ideas how many forums have used that setup before?

DU is hardly the originator :eyes:

[RetroLounge]

301. Yeah, guess they should have bought a Thesaurus...

would that have made you happy?

[Cheswick2.0]

217. ROFL

right :7

165. Can't we all keep our eyes on the prize?

anybody know that song Ry Cooder does "Denomination Blues"?

seems pertinent even if the analogy isn't exact

written by Washington Phillips




(g) I wanna tell you people it’s a nat’ral fact
Ev’ry man don’t understand the bible alike
And that’s (c) all, I tell you that’s (g) all
’cause you better have (d) jesus
I tell you that’s (g) all

Well, the denominations have no right to fight
They ought go on and treat each other right
And that’s all, I tell you that’s all
’cause you better have jesus
I tell you that’s all

It’s right to stand together, wrong to stand apart
When none will enter heaven but the pure at heart
And that’s all, I’ll tell you that’s all
’cause you better have jesus
I’ll tell you that’s all

Well, the primitive baptists they believe
That you can’t go to heaven ’less you wash your feet
And that’s all, I’ll tell you that’s all
’cause you better have jesus
I tell you that’s all

Well, the african methodists, they believe the same
’cause they know demonination ain’t a thing but a name
And that’s all, I’ll tell you that’s all
’cause you better have jesus
I tell you that’s all

Well, people that jump from church to church
You can bet their conversion don’t amount too much
And that’s all, I’ll tell you that’s all
’cause you better have jesus
I tell you that’s all

Well, you can to your college, you can go to your school
But if you ain’t got jesus, you’se (you are) an educated fool
And that’s all, I’ll tell you that’s all
’cause you better have jesus
I tell you that’s all

[Adelante]

169. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few

anti-Kerry people spouting off on any site. A few are always anti-somebody. The overall tone of anti-Kerryness did kind of surprise me, though, since Dean himself is moving toward support of Kerry. He didn't endorse yet, did he? I've had company the past week and have not been paying a lot of attention.

[BootinUp]

227. I believe Dean has endorsed Kerry

He was on MTP yesterday morning too, dismantling Bushes reasons for going into Iraq, and expressing his support for Kerry.

[Adelante]

255. Thanks, Jim4

I wasn't sure if he had or hadn't.

[madfloridian]

295. Not technically.

But he said some good things on MTP, and he was very supporting, said Kerry got to be the captain. That he was still wanting to be part and help.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

183. Very shallow.

Am I think only one who thinks it is creepy to have a semi-secretive inner circle group of disillusioned DUers whose sole purpose in creating a new MB was to show how much they hate where they all came from? It's not only disrespectful, but done in a seemingly juvenile way toward other DUers (In particular Will Pitt and ZombyWoof) and the DU community. Dissent is fine but this form seems rather callow to me.

Found from that forum:

"Now, I agree that there are many significant differences between Dean and Kucinich and that they are very different, but we don't need to behave like ZombyWoof or some of the other volatile Kucinich supporters on DU. "- KaraokeKarlton

Eh, judge for yourself.

[Zomby Woof]

203. it's a badge of honor, lol

Although being slandered by a "friend" that I am not a real DK supporter with suspect motives was a bit far-fetched. But par for a very typical and boring course. :nopity:

Creepy, indeed, Maggie.

[Forkboy]

206. The best thing about you ZW

is whether one agrees or disagrees with you there's never any doubt where you stand.I personally respect that.

it doesn't hurt that you're yak friendly either :D

[Zomby Woof]

212. I am a pro-yak extremist!

My pro-yak vote is non-transferable!! :D

[Exgeneral]

216. And a Pro Koffee soothsayer

troof, word.

How's Kucinich doing lately? Lots of slams for the Deansters and you've kept above this somehow....

[Nicholas_J]

246. Yes

I got mentioned over there on People for Change...as usual, more of the Progressive Dean delusions, as well as one of the people there finally admitting to be one of the people who had been tombstoned on DU, which a large number of us suspected, but since there was no direct proof, we couldnt make the accusation openly on DU.

[Northwind]

198. Oh no! A website that lets people say bad things about Kerry! AUGH!

Pathetic posturing going on here.

How about we try some facts instead.

The PFC Mission Statement:

People For Change is a grassroots community dedicated to changing this country in the spirit of the Dean Campaign/Movement which has redefined politics for the 21st Century.

We are devoted to continuing that movement by encouraging and promoting:


increased participatory democracy by engaging citizens who have abandoned the political process and by giving them a reason to be involved again;


more power of the people over their government and more accountability for elected officials and public servants;


decreased influence and control over politics and government by corporate special interests and a consolidated corporate media which no longer serves "the people's right to know" because of its slanted, biased and incomplete coverage of issues;


an honest and principled politics, and political campaigns devoid of pandering, dirty tricks, as well as self-serving and manipulative backroom deals,


an end to the unresponsiveness of politicians and public servants to the people they are supposed to serve;


re-dedication to core traditional Democratic principles as articulated by Gov. Howard Dean, as well his vision as articulated in his American Restoration speech, and elsewhere.


Amazingly, nothing anti-Kerry there! But oh, no! We actually let people who do not like the Botoxed wonder post! How DARE we!!???

This may shock some of you, but on a board that allows freedom of expression, you might just ocassionally see an opinion with which you disagree. I know that many here, being simply the mirror image of FreeRepublic, would find that intolerable, but the more enlightened and evolved of us do not seem to have a problem with it.

So come on over and check it out. If you have a dispute with someone, you know what happens? The admin lets you work it out like real live grownups! Whee! Try it folks, real progressives won'be disappointed.

And don't forget to get your PFC Gear: http://www.cafeshops.com/peopleforchange

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

247. Different boards serve different purposes

and given the penchants of some of your members don't bank on free speech for long :D

( Now is there some rule there that people have to refer to DU as "That other place?")

[DuctapeFatwa]

288. But can you "say bad things" about Dean there?

I don't think they welcome non-Dean lovers.

[Name removed]

291. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

213. hey, let's call all the cool kids

and go laugh at them.

:eyes:

[Exgeneral]

237. wow, hey Uly can I come too?

Pleeeeeeeeease?

[ulysses]

297. are you cool enough?

Am I? We may ask! :D

[IndianaGreen]

242. Thank you for letting me know about this new forum

I will register in order to engage in a discussion about the Israel/Palestinian conflict with other liberals that support peace and justice for the Palestinians, an end to terrorism from both sides, and a withdrawal to the pre-1967 borders.

[Guaranteed]

253. LOL

;) Awesome, Indiana. It's a pleasure to have you.

[madfloridian]

266. That section is not very active yet, so you will lead the way.

:hi:

[IndianaGreen]

270. Thank you, madfloridian

We need more discourse, not less.

The elections in Spain show what happens when the electorate was given a clear choice, and the Spaniards chose to bring the troops home immediately and not wait for some "stable" pro-US government to take power.

[Northwind]

272. By all means, ID!

The more the merrier!

[dweller]

265. Nice thread...

remind me to come back here when i'm in need of a jury of my peers.

No sabiamos a que' carta poner la vida
para no volver siempre sin nada entre las manos
como buceadores del vacio. .........Jose Angel Valenta No Man's Land


peace,
dp

[RandomUser]

292. Geez

First there was DU. Now a forum dedicated to bashing DU (And it's not even FR!). When will we get a forum dedicated to bashing the forum that is dedicated to bashing DU?

Geez, the left sure seems united. If we win in Nov, it will be entirely due to accident.

[WilliamPitt]

293. Worst. Thread. Ever.

[RandomUser]

294. Look at it this way

You've apparently acquired a new nickname. Now you only have a few more to go before you're even with Arthur C. Clarke's God. :)

[ulysses]

298. not at all, Will!

For my own part, I'd been wondering what Terwilliger was up to (having not been in touch with him since the day after he was banned), and now I know. For others, it offers a fresh chance to make fun of some disaffected lefties. The whole thread is chock full of opportunistic goodness!

[Lexingtonian]

296. it's utterly bush league

Armchair warriors often fail
They've been poisoned by those fairy tales

(Don Henley)

about sums up my impression of the thing.

It's like watching kids play T-ball. Touching, funny, and pathetic all at the same time.

[RetroLounge]

304. Wow, your entire impression of another fourm

is based on an Eagles Song?

*snarf*

[Moderator]

305. Locking......

It appears that this thread has gotten out of hand
and has really run it's course. It appears that
everyone who wants to vent has vented.


Thanks for understanding.


DU Moderator