The DNC has made a mess of our primary. They must seat delegates from FL and MI

[LulaMay]

or this race will not be seen as fair or ethical.

No candidates campaigned in FL., except Obama ran tv ads...and Hillary won by a wide margin. FL is an important swing state, and our party can't ignore voters and delegates there, unless they wish to anger them so much we end up losing the state in the general election.

How stupid can the DNC be?

[AtomicKitten]

1. The DNC struck a deal with all concerned. They settled it. They did their job.

It's the changing the rules in the middle of the game cuz you're losing folks that are trying to make a mess of this primary.

[bellasgrams]

11. The citizens that voted did not agree to it. and should not be

ignored. It's not democracy when your vote doesn't count. We might as well live in a dictatorship.

[AtomicKitten]

18. FL and MI were told beforehand the election was not sanctioned and would not count.

Hillary is trying to skate on name recognition only (they were not allowed to campaign in Florida and Michigan) and for crissakes not having all names on the ballot in MI was also not democratic.

The actual democratic solution would be to allow them campaign and re-vote. Otherwise, stick a fork in it because as self-righteous as you think you are spreading your "democracy" theme here, we all know what democracy looks like and what Hillary is proposing ain't it.

[LulaMay]

25. A stupid move for the DNC. FL voters & delegates won't just take it laying down.

[AtomicKitten]

28. Will you huff and puff and blow the convention doors down?

Kinda like these guys:

[Yossariant]

34. Count the votes! Don't count the votes! The Democratic Party is schizophrenic.

[AtomicKitten]

36. Come on, Shelly. Do you really need help discerning that distinction?

[Yossariant]

47. The voters do --- and the Democrats will lose the White House.

[nebenaube]

41. why not?

after all they f(cked themselves for eight years!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

76. screw them, they knew the rules and Hillary agreed to the rules

of course the rules don't apply to Clintons.

[VotesForWomen]

97. yeah, screw 'em; as long as O's the nominee, who cares if we lose? nt

[fadedrose]

40. Everyone was told in advance that their votes didn't count...

and they had the primary anyway.

[Dark]

89. They should have written their representatives who decided it and said "don't screw this up."

They didn't play by the rules, so their votes don't count.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

75. the folks who pushed FL and MI first are aiming to undermine Howard Dean

the ones who broke the rules are laying blame at the feet of the institution that made the rules.

There is also concern that the people behind the MI and FL leap frog intentionally
want to undermine Dean.

Dean wants all 50 states to go democratic, Hillary is only for the "big" states, which
would in effect leave control to the repugs.

[DJ13]

2. "or this race will not be seen as fair or ethical."

What was fair about Hillary being the only name on the Michigan ballot?

What was fair about basing the Florida primary solely on name recognition?

You want fair?

Force Michigan and Florida to let Dean hold caucuses, where both the voters AND the candidates get a fair chance.

[bellasgrams]

29. All the names were on the FL ballot if people wanted to vote for

BO they could. BO was the only one that ran ads in FL There's no reason to have another vote. In Mich. Hillary wasn't the only name on the ballot, Kuch, and a couple of others didn't take their names off. It's no ones fault but BO's that he removed his name. He wasn't told to remove it. The voters shouldn't have to have a redo just because BO screwed up.

[Kittycat]

44. People were told their vote wouldn't count, and many didn't vote.

Unless you were a property owner, there was no reason to show up and vote. I've heard one caller after another complaining about that. Some were even told it was a Republican primary - no need to bother.

If anything, they deserve a re-vote, but nothing less.

And don't be an idiot, you know Obama didn't mess up. This was the state chairs that messed up. ALL the candidates signed on to the rules.

[MonkeyFunk]

66. You are now the ninth person

I've seen in two days claim that Clinton was the only name on the ballot in MI.

Does somebody send out a fax with the lie of the week on it?

[Mme. Defarge]

3. How conveeeeeeeeeeeeenient

[johncoby2]

4. Blame the Fl and Mi Democrats.

They broke the rules knowing the consequences.

How stupid can they be?

[fadedrose]

46. Maybe not so stupid - was it a clever ploy?

To get HRC the most votes and thus the whole state?

Edwards and Obama would have done better in MI than any other state because of the high unemployment and the black population around Detroit. We will never know.

And the idiots who ran the primary SHOULD HAVE MADE SURE THAT ALL CANDIDATES NAMES WERE ON THE BALLOT, and not go around telling people to vote "Uncommitted" or Republican to help choose the candidate we'd best like to run against.

This was not stupid, it was highly unethical possibly done by stupid people, but the act itself was not stupid.

[Birthmark]

5. When the DNC wakes up the day after

...the General Election and realizes that they lost FL and MI, putting McCain in the White House, I'm sure that they'll feel satisfied. Gotta uphold those (pointless) party rules, you know.

[fadedrose]

49. Can't understand how you can come to that conclusion... (nt)

[Birthmark]

54. What other conclusion is there?

Difficulty: It has to make some sort of sense.

[fadedrose]

65. Your conclusion seems to indicate that you support HC

Yes, HC could lose if the vote is so close that she needs MI's primary votes to go over the top. It appears that she would get a huge majority of those votes (illegal votes).

You seem to be suggesting that McCain will beat Obama when all polls show differently. Obama is hot.

That's why I don't understand how you put McCain in the White House. I think that Obama has a better chance of beating McCain and hope he doesn't have to go up aginst delegates who represent illegal votes.

ILLEGAL, ILLEGAL, do you get it yet?

[Birthmark]

100. Wrong again.

I disliked both of the Clintons long before it became fashionable. So you are dead wrong. My interest is only in what's right or wrong. Who wins isn't my problem since my guy got beat...even in Florida.

Illegal votes? Oh, the drama! Did you call the police? Let me know when they're coming around. I'll make a pot of coffee for them.

You do realize that you are engaging in circular logic, don't you?

As for President McCain...I wouldn't trouble too much about the polls right now since they are National polls. It should also be remembered that FL hasn't yet *really* been denied its delegates, so the anger isn't there yet. Many of us still believe that the DNC will pull its head out of its posterior and do the right thing. I think that if they merely pull their heads out half-way it will suffice...though a bit awkward and unattractive.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

77. There's the Democratic Natl Party, then there's the Clinton Party

one favors a 50 state campaign, the other favors a "big state" campaign.

The Clintons will grab power anyway they can.

Break the rules,
lie
or
cheat.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

6. Hillary agreed to the rules Don't blame the party, blame Hillary

Hillary agreed to the rules.

She made her bed, now she can lie in it.

Of course who expected her to think the rules applied to her?

[LulaMay]

13. Blame her for what? Getting the most votes? The DNC did this, not her.

[Codeine]

7. FL and MI made their decision.

They can live with the consequences. The scenario was clearly laid out before they made their choice. This was not a surprise.

[ProSense]

8. Rules are rules, but Obama is ahead even if you include MI and FL

Obama is ahead even if you include MI and FL

[LulaMay]

15. Not when she wins Ohio and Pennsylvania and probably Texas.

She has won almost every major state contest.

[Orangepeel]

31. Is the definition of "major state" one that Clinton wins? n/t

[ProSense]

32. "When"? She hasn't! n/t

[Dark]

90. I live in Ohio. Ain't no way we're voting for Hillary.

n/t

[Danger Mouse]

9. Why are you blaiming the DNC for something done by the FL and MI Democratic Parties?

:shrug:

[cbayer]

22. It's just a lot more complicated than that - at least in Florida.

Although this link is very dense, if you really want to be informed, please take a look at it:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/15/17261/4418

[stellanoir]

10. It's BS

She broke the rules and is losing. Get over it.

[Yael]

12. Because without rules, we have anarchy

But best of luck to you with this. Consider your voice cancelled by mine on a 'seat them without a revote' issue.


:hi:

[LulaMay]

14. This isn't a rulke, it was a bad decision that disenfranchises voters and will cause chaos at

the convention. It was very stupid of them to do.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

79. The Clintons are royalty and rules don't apply to them

Thats why they are so polarizing.

There are no rules if you are a sociopath.

[skipos]

16. Hillary supporter, huh?

Nice try, acting all concerned. Hillary didn't give a flying fuck about us until it became clear that the coronation was going according to plan. I don't buy her "concern" and I don't buy yours either. You don't tell voters that an election won't matter, and then tell them after the results come in that it DOES matter, just because it benefits your candidate.

[williesgirl]

17. Voters in both states knew it wouldn't count for delegates, some stayed home as a result. Now you

want to say it'll be fair if the others' votes do count? bullshit. They can't change the rules after the fact, regardless of whether we all agree the rules weren't ok to begin with.

[anamandujano]

61. Not as many as those who stayed home in the puny caucus "big wins" for Obama.

The tiny percentage of voters in the caucuses would be funny if it weren't so stupid. And the Obama supporters trumpet these states as big wins.

It must be hugely embarrassing that Hillary got more votes. If people did not like her, they would not vote for her, they had other choices including uncommitted and leaving it blank.

Add to that, the Obama supporters are always criticizing Hillary's campaign. What about the tactical error Obama made in removing his name from the ballot in the two states. That's a biggie. He probably knew he wasn't going to make much of a splash.

[billyoc]

19. Right or wrong, for better or worse, the DNC will not budge on this point. nt

[Dogmudgeon]

20. The best solution is ...

Get the candidates together with Howard Dean and a number of the party mugwumps. Keep the email lines open for reaction.

Assemble all the disputes -- the FL and MI delegates, the superdelegates, whatever else is bugging the two camps.

Propose solutions, get feedback from the "PLEOs*" and the netroots, and work it out.

Then finally settle the disputes by reaching mutually-acceptable agreements.

No arm-twisting, no cheating, no grandstanding necessary. Simple, fair, and Democratic.

Do the same thing at the convention, because it's nearly certain that nobody will get that 2025 (a.k.a. "Hillary can't win without 63.9%").

We're Democrats -- you know, the party that loves intra-fighting but unites and consolidates itself like a fist for the general election.

As a Hilbot second and a Democrat first, let me tip my hat to the loyal opposition:

As Obama Girl once said, "the Eye of the Donkey!" Let's get it.

Nine rounds and peace.

--p!
*PLEO - Party Leaders and Elected Officials.

[cbayer]

23. OMG, that is so democratic!! It will never fly. Never, I say. nt.

[haroldgiowa]

21. I will agree Florida should be counted.

All things being equal Florida was a level playing field. Clinton's, Edwards' and Obama's name were on the ballot. Obama did campaign indirectly by buying cable time that did show in Florida, but not to any degree that it helped him. These votes should be divided up as they normally would have.

Michigan is a different deal. Edwards and Obama removed their name from the ballot,leaving only Clinton's name. This did give her an unfair advantage over Obama and Edwards. These delegates should not be seated from the primary results.

This is a fair compromise. If these candidates are all about compromise they should be acceptable to these terms. If they are unable to reach an agreement then I question their ability to lead the country on more pressing issues. Both sides need to take the high road. As a neutral observer I am not seeing it.

[LulaMay]

27. Agreed.

[Yossariant]

24. Democrats will not win the White House.

Too many people are already being persuaded by the argument that the Democrats are a bunch of idiots -- and they really don't care or notice which group within the party is the idiotic one.

In my local forum, the Republicans are saying that we're idiots and most of the center agrees that we yelled, "Count the Votes!" in 2000 and now we're yelling, "Don't count the votes!"

It's an argument that is impossible to defend.

[LulaMay]

26. Wow...you're positive. McCain hasn't even been in a debate yet.

[Yossariant]

33. It's the Democratic Party, itself, that is driving the discussion, not the candidates.

Unfortunately, McCain is not a bad choice for many in the middle.

Like a comfortable old shoe.

Please don't infer that I think it about him. I loathe McCain and the GOP.

All I'm saying is that I post in a mixed board and the Democratic PARTY has lost ground with the Independents and it's because of "Count the votes!" "Don't count the votes!"

[Johnny__Motown]

30. NO They must NOT seat our delegates or this will not be seen as fair or ethical

The rules were broken. How the hell can you call breaking rules and not paying a price for it fair or ethical..Scooter Libby... is that you?

[Skip Intro]

37. Screw the Florida Democratic voters!

Tell 'em to eff off.

And count heavily on them just forgetting all about it eight months from now.

Just hope.

Yes we can.

:eyes:

[Johnny__Motown]

43. Clinton is snubbing voters in every state she loses, You can't have this both ways

Voters in states that elect Obama don't count but voters in states that break rules need to be defended?

Come on, you can't honesty believe the crap you are posting here, can you?

[Skip Intro]

50. wtf? are you serious

can you not take a step or two back and consider the effect of telling those voters they don't count now on November?

Just consider it.

Try.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

80. Clinton only cares about the "big states", hence we get controlled by GOP

Their creepy Blackwater campaign advisor said that the states Obama won are not important.

The Clintons don't care about getting a majority in the house, they just want
the presidency.

Our country is predominently democratic, but since people like the Clintons don't
care about all 50 states, we end up with repug rule.

[Skip Intro]

35. Yes, simple logic roundly rejected. Like I said in another thread, it ain't rocke science.

We tell them they don't matter now, why the hell would they show up to support us in November?

A corner we are in thanks to some shortsightedness on the DNC's part.

I wonder what percentage of Dem voters in FL, disenfranchised once again, say just the ones (the majority) who voted for Hillary, will say "no, fuck you" to the party in November?


But this is crazy talk to many Obama supporters on this board. We lost the state handily when anti-buch sentiment was running high last time around. We won't have that motivator this time around.

Tell FL voters their votes are meaningless, once again. See how many show up in November.

[wileedog]

69. HAHAHA

*Tell FL voters their votes are meaningless, once again. See how many show up in November.*

They were told their votes were meaningless in FEBRUARY, and they came out and voted anyway.

Seriously, do you really think they are going to run out and elect McCain out of spite?

[Skip Intro]

78. No, man, I think they might just decide to stay home. We lost FL in 04 you know.

And that was with the strong winds of anti-bush sentiment.

That ain't there this time around. bush is gone no matter what.

Think it will have no effect in November to tell these Democrats, who voted in the FL primary, that they don't matter now, but please come back and support us in a few months?

The disconnect from reality really is astonishing.

[wileedog]

84. You are missing the point again

They were already told their vote didn't matter. Up front. That Primary didn't count.

They willingly participated in a meaningless exercise, and now they are going to be bitter because even though they were explicitly and blatantly told their vote doesn't count they are going to be angry that, er, their vote actually doesn't count? Just like they were told in the first place?

[Skip Intro]

87. Yeah, they just voted for the hell of it. Nothing better to do than cast a vote that doesn't matter.

Yeah, that's what happened, none of them had anything better to do that day.

What, a million or so? Of our CORE support? Yeah, what the hell were they thinking?

Please.

You being monitored right now?

[wileedog]

88. So

You're argument is that even though it was widely acknowledged and announced that the FL primaries were invalid and that none of the votes would count, EVERYONE in Florida just assumed that was a lie, or made up, or not really real, so they went out and dutifully pulled the lever for Hillary fully expecting that the vote that everyone everywhere was telling them wouldn't count, would count.

That's your argument?

[Skip Intro]

91. A lot of them pulled the lever for Obama. What about them?

[wileedog]

93. What about them?

Doesn't matter either.

I respect that some people went to the booth anyway even though they knew it didn't matter, whichever way they voted. Good on them.

But it didn't matter. They were told up front it didn't matter, this wasn't some bait and switch. If they are angry they should rightfully be throwing out their state Party officials who are complete numbnuts for thinking they could force the DNC into changing the system. And if they stay home, it is those party officials who are to blame, not the DNC who has to keep at least some sort of order in this thing.

Again, the DNC cannot AFFORD to let FL get seated, or they will have chaos in 4 years when 48 other states start jockeying for primary position knowing the DNC won't penalize them. Why is this so hard to get?

[Skip Intro]

94. We will lose this year if we don't carry FL.

[wileedog]

95. Then we will lose

But if you change the rules midgame you will tear the party apart. That has a lot of long-term ramifications past just this election.

Again, the DNC is not to blame, they spelled out exactly what Florida had to do to have their votes count.

Florida ignored them.

It is up to Florida to make sure the people who made those decisions pay the price, not the DNC. If you have an issue, talk to the Florida Democratic Party.


p.s. We will not lose the general without Florida. McCain is a disaster, half his own party hates him. About the only thing that will rally conservatives to vote might be rallying against Hillary, who they universally can't stand.

[Skip Intro]

82. BTW - welcome to DU - just reviewed your posts, and if you're interested

you definitely have the talkig points down

in an ineffective sort of way


enjoy your stay

[wileedog]

86. Uh

Thanks?

Is there somewhere I can go to get the more effective talking points?

You know, to fit in with the experts like you?

[fadedrose]

38. The DNC is in the right

The DLC and elected officials in Michigan told the DNC to go to hell with their rules and had the illegal primary in spite of being warned.

I live in Michigan and do not want the delegates seated. Morons decided the primary system and anyone who follows them is a ...well.

[SoFlaJet]

39. HELL-OOOOO PEOPLE

it was THE REPUBLICAN STATE LEGISLATURE who switched the Florida primary date-they control the state house and senate-THEY DID IT!!!! NOT us...the democratic party should reschedule another primary and pay for it so WE the Florida democrats aren't made to suffer...people didn't even bother going out to vote since we were all told it wasn't going to count anyway-I went so they wouldn't mysteriously take my name off the rolls like they did to me in 2000

[still_one]

57. I agree with you, and they should redo MI also. COST should NOT be the issue

Nothing is more important then insuring that people vote.

if cost is the issue, the DNC should pay for it, the enthusiasm generated by this election should get more than enough contributions to finance it.

Anything but a redo of the primary is unfair

[yewberry]

68. It wasn't the "republican state legislature" that switched the primary date.

The FL Dems were absolutely on board for this, and they've been really deceitful about it.

I agree that if the delegates will be seated, there should be a caucus...but Nelson won't agree to it.

I really don't think the delegates should be seated, though. I really feel for FL Dem voters, but the state party is responsible for this mess and the DNC has to follow the party rules. The state party unquestionably caused the disenfranchisement of their own constituents.

[Eurobabe]

42. Bullshit. The DNC must NOT seat these delegates

Play by the rules or suffer the consequences.

[pingzing58]

45. We all grew up in an age without access to information like today.

The DNC needs to know that they are no longer our Lords. They can't just force us to do their bidding. Florida and Michigan have a right to express their opinion without fearing "mob" style politics. I did not contribute to the DNC this year for that. It's time to listen to the people and take power away from the DNC. My question to the DU is what can be done to punish the DNC other than refraining from funding them through member contributions.

[Johnny__Motown]

48. Wow that is just dumb, you can't let everyone break rules whenever they want

DNC are not our lords, they simply set the rules by which we play this game called politics.

[pingzing58]

53. Ok Johnny so just capitulate to the DNC authority? Based on what reasoning?

[HooptieWagon]

51. No, blame the Fl Dem Party apparatchiks

namely Hillary supporters Bill Nelson and Karen Thurman. It was Fl Dems who introduced and sponsored the bill setting the date. Fl Dems broke the previously agreed upon rules, and were warned of the consequences. DNC (Dean) even tried to broker a compromise that satisfied the rules, and were rebuffed. No... blame the Fl Dem party elites for disenfranching the voters. Shows how much the Hillary-supporting party establishment cares about rank and file dems. Hint: they don't; all they care about is getting and keeping power.

[Skip Intro]

52. they'll blame the Democratic party. And they won't forget by November.

It's so damn basic.

[still_one]

56. and neither will the other sides supporters unless their is a redo

We WILL go down in flames, and deserve it

[Yossariant]

98. Wrong. It was sponsored by Republicans who have the majority in the legislature and the governor.

[still_one]

55. No, the Democratic party in THOSE states made a mess out of it

They knew what the rules were

The only way those delegates should be seated is if there is a redo

As far as your premise that they will anger those voters so much we will lose the state in the general election, my argument is they will anger those candidate's supporters that were told not to have their names on the ballot in MI, and it won't be just losing a state in the general election, it will be the general election period, because they will have angered those supporters whose candidates who followed the DNC rules

If you don't think that could happen, just watch. The nominee may be chosen because MI and FL are delegates are seated without a redo, but they won't win the general election if that is how they win, and neither candidate can win the GE without the other candidate's supporters

REDO THE ELECTION, the excuse that it is too costly only shows they don't care if all the votes are counted

[Tarc]

58. You can't redo an election, it just isn't feasible

even the GOP can be right once in a lifetime; we should just seat half the delegates, like they did to their rogue primaries.

[JCMach1]

59. They will be seated if Obama wins out... if it looks like Hillary, there will be a HUGE

fight.

[Obamaniac]

60. No politicians in MI and FL made this mess

by trying to manipulate the vote in their states by giving Hillary an edge. It backfired and they shouldn't be allowed to count.

[Skip Intro]

62. The DNC made this mess.

They should have had a "punishment" that didn't result in telling our own party's voters in those states - our people - that they are meaningless.

The punishment is where we shot ourselves in the foot and brings us to this predicament today.

[wileedog]

71. If they

do anything that allows the FL or MI votes to count, the DNC invites complete anarchy 4 years from now.

Every state will push their primaries into January, each trying to outjockey each other to be the new Iowa or NH. And they will know that no punishment will be forthcoming for doing so.

[Skip Intro]

74. yet if they hold to the current "judgement" - they risk alienating our very core support in FL

quite the quagmire

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

81. Lets see, if MI and FL had followed the rules like the rest of us

then this wouldn't be happening.

But some dishonest people decided to break the rules, figuring that we would all kiss their asses
and like it.

[Skip Intro]

92. How ironic is it that your screen name is WillYourVoteBCounted?

can't make this stuff up...

[dysfunctional press]

63. if the FL and MI voters KNEW ahead of time that their delegates would NOT be seated...

why would it "anger them so much" that they wouldn't vote for the party candidate in november?

or are you just referring to those voters whose candidate ultimately doesn't get the nomination?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

64. So long as they allow a revote...

[dchill]

67. Nah.

Don't think so.

[Beregond2]

70. DNC...

No way. Those states made their bed and they can lie in it. Any changes now would only lead to chaos, and the whole election being made to look bogus.

[LadyVT]

72. deja vu

[yewberry]

73. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

The DNC is not to blame for the FL and MI state parties leapfrogging. The DNC set the rules, and every state (including FL and MI) agreed to follow them. Automatic sanctions were put in place for leapfrogging, but the state parties decided to try to get their way through bullying and blackmail.

It completely sucks for FL and MI voters, but the DNC isn't to blame. The state parties are behaving shamefully, and I really don't appreciate the efforts to try to hold the rest of the country hostage because "we need their votes."

[thoughtcrime1984]

83. Here we go again

Did you miss the other 400 topics on this that spell out why this should not be? :eyes:

[blitzen]

85. oh, bullcrap! that's all i have to say.

[my3boyz]

96. No changes! I think Howard Dean is on his way out the door

after this election though. He made that deal with the candidates regarding Florida and Michigan. He scheduled too many states on one day for Super Tuesday. Then he moved the convention back to August. He never considered what would happen in the event of a close race. This primary season has been a mess..........

[Yossariant]

99. I agree. Dean is done.