Obama on MI and FL - Even my 6 Year Old Understands it's not Fair

[RamboLiberal]

Obama was asked if he believes Clinton should receive the pledged delegates have yet to be awarded in Michigan and Florida, which were penalized by the Democratic National Committee for moving their primaries into January.

"Obviously it wouldn't make any sense, and I think even my six year old would understand it would not be fair for Senator Clinton to be awarded delegates when there was no campaign and in one of the states, at least, my name didn't appear on the ballot.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/02/15/politics/fromtheroad/entry3838093.shtml

Fight it Barack - I'm with you on this!

[nomorewhopper]

1. I FULLY agree with Obama's 6 year old. n/t

[flyarm]

108. gee i think Obama forgets he said this..and did this ..breaking rules ok for obama?

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking
Barack Obama held an impromptu news conference after a Tampa fundraiser Sunday.


By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 30, 2007



TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.

The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences."

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. … If that's the case, then we won't do it again."


Obama broke the rules and he is a liar!

[nomorewhopper]

122. it says "presumptive" nominee...

there's a huge difference between symbolically sitting a delegate and using those delegates to illegally change the outcome of an election.

nobody wants to exclude these people, but we're not going to use them to change the course of history.

if you cannot see this distinction, you are blind.

[GarbagemanLB]

2. Apparently population size negates the fact they broke the rules for Hillary supporters.

[goldcanyonaz]

3. Obama was for seating the delegates before he was against it. "Obama Vows To 'Do What's Right'"

TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.

Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

4. When? Do you have a link to prove your claim?

[flyarm]

133. here is a link and what Obama said after the dnc imposed the sanctions in Florida..

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking
Barack Obama held an impromptu news conference after a Tampa fundraiser Sunday.


By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 30, 2007



TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.

The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences."

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. … If that's the case, then we won't do it again."

[LordJFT]

5. proof? probably not, I know the Clintons aren't big on facts

[JackORoses]

7. bullshit. he never supported using them in determining the nominee

do you ever feel bad for sacrificing your own personal integrity for Hillary?

[babylonsister]

12. It's remarks like that that lessen any credibility you 'might' have left. Pls.

provide a link -

[joshcryer]

13. He said he would seat them.

But he clearly thinks it'll be down to the wire and doesn't want to seat them.

[goldcanyonaz]

15. I did, and thanks for your judging my credibility.

[joshcryer]

18. I said about a month ago that the *only* situation where they weren't seated was if Obama didn't...

...seat them.

Man of integrity my ass. Unity my ass.

[goldcanyonaz]

22. How dare you! He's a Saint.

[babylonsister]

102. Thanks for the link, but from September? Things do have a habit

of changing...

[GoldieAZ49]

112. a 6 yr old has more sense than Hillary and some of her supporters - Heres one!

[goldcanyonaz]

117. You no likey my linky?

:rofl:

[dogman]

136. You're one all right, a BO supporter with the sense of a six year old.

Fuck all the people who voted. Pay no attention to them, the GOPers don't. I was reading a couple of Obama supporters concerned about possible disenfranchisement of voters in LA. They said voter disenfranchisement was a serious issue. I guess they weren't as intelligent as this six year old.

[GoldieAZ49]

139. Take it up with the STATE officials

they are the one that accepted the penalty for moving the primary up and screwed their voters.

It is not the fault of either candidate or the DNC.

They will have to pay for a new primary in each state, or have the delegates spilt evenly between the candidates.

You can not change the rules in the middle of the election cycle no matter who wants it. It will tear the party apart and lose all credibility.

Why is this so difficult for some to understand???

You really want a riot at the convention in August? I know McCain does, didn't think dems did.

[dogman]

140. Yes, because if certain states disenfranchise certain voters it's no problem.

Jim Crow laws were all the rage at one time. Never thought I'd see that mindset amongst Dems.

[LakeSamish706]

6. Yep, I agree.. the rules were well known long ago as to what would happen...

if the dates were changed... I do feel bad that the citizens of those two states got screwed, but it would totally be unfair to count them for Hillary. If a new primary in the two states were down, maybe that would be one way to work it out, but not just count the votes for Hillary.

[peacebird]

8. it would be unfair to Floridians as well - many didn't bother to vote - knowing it wouldn't count.

A new poll in Florida and Michigan is the only fair way.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. and yet

they had record turnout. Far more than double the 2004 primary.

[GoldieAZ49]

111. A 6 yr old has more sense than Hillary and some of her supporters - Heres one!

[MethuenProgressive]

10. More hyperbole from Obama.

That's the one thing he's really good at.

[VolcanoJen]

11. I agree with Sasha Obama!

[LisaM]

33. Why isn't that little girl wearing a helmet?

That looks really unsafe.

[ButterflyBlood]

91. Uh, a helmet on bumper cars?

Never heard of this before.

[LisaM]

99. Well, yeah. Heck, little kids even wear them on tricycles

Kids wear them on the nearest bumper car place here, at least from what I've seen.

[JBoy]

88. That's a great picture. She's having a blast with Daddy!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. I'm Not Weighing In On MI. But One Would Have The Critical Thinking Ability Of A 6 Yr Old, To Think

that the FL vote wasn't a legitimate voice of the FL voters. You can't have 40% of the turnout 4 years prior and say that was adequate in determining state intent, then turn around with more than double that turnout and say "we justttt don't knowwwwww how the voters wanted to vote!"

Sorry, but when you have 1.7 million voters rushing out to vote in a primary in record breaking numbers, I think their intent becomes pretty clear. And to think for a second that campaigning would've made that big of a difference is absurd. The voters of FL are a bit smarter than some are trying to make them. Some want to act as if the voters had been in a cave or something, and had no real exposure to these candidates. Give me a break. They all have tv's. They all were able to see his campaign speeches elsewhere. They all knew who he is. They all saw his ads.

The fact is that 1.7 million voters voted and in the end Hillary had an overwhelming victory. Lack of campaigning or not (a loss for both sides) they had MORE than enough exposure and knowledge of the candidates to cast their vote with intellect and reason. I think it's absurd how some are trying to undermine their intellect as if to say "but they were clueless! They didn't get to see Obama campaign! They had no IDEA who he is blah blah blah!". They knew, and they voted for Hillary. Deal with it.

They voted and the message was clear: They wanted Hillary. To go against that is to disenfranchise all of their voices for sake of protecting someone's own candidate, which is selfish and disgusting. Anyone claiming that we don't truly know what the intentions of FL voters was is nothing short of a moron in my opinion. Common sense people. Common friggin sense. Some critical thinking should easily be able to lead one to the conclusion that it was obvious what the FL voters wanted. But go ahead, disenfranchise them all anyway, just so you don't have to have something go against your candidate. So 2000 RW'ish. Disgusting. :vomit:

[joshcryer]

16. What they don't like is that Obama wasn't allowed to be on the ground to buy votes.

You see, being able to run around with signs, and motivate people a certain way, using large monetary resources to do so, allows you to coerce people into voting your way. Pretty much indisputable.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. Funniest Thing To Me, Is That You Don't Hear Any Of The 1.7 Million Voters Running To The Press And

saying "we don't want the delegates counted! now that we've seen Obama more, we want to vote for him! Not fair!!!!"

Seems like those that voted, did so not only with intent, but don't mind one bit if their vote continues to be counted for that which they voted for. I'd say that's relevant.

[Yael]

26. And how many renters stayed home because they have no property tax and were told

their votes didn't count?

Why do you hate renters? :cry:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. Damned If I Care.

Millions stay home every election. I tend to care more about those who like, actually show up and stuff.

[joshcryer]

32. Double 2004.

Pretty damn convincing that those people wanted their vote heard.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. Yup.

Actually, it's a lot more than double. It was like a million more voters.

But nahhhhhhhhhh, we don't reallllllly know what the voters of Fl wanted. Nope. No way. No one can tell! There's just no way to know!

God such a disgusting sentiment...

[NeedleCast]

41. No different from what Hillary would have done

Obama just seems to do it more effectivly. If you want to be able to access large monetary resources then you put in the work to aquire them. Hillary has not. As the undisputed front runner four months ago, this election was a lock and she didn't commit the resources or organization that Obama has.

So you're saying that when Obama is on the ground it should be called coercing? I think that's pretty much totally disputable.

[joshcryer]

49. It just shows that they are both the same side of the coin.

Of course Hillary wouldn't want their votes to count if it would hurt her and help Obama.

It just shows that we're not a real democracy.

[sandnsea]

36. Let's elect a President with NO CAMPAIGN

How about that??

Disgusting lack of integrity. People ought to be ashamed. There's no way these states can be seated, and there's no way superdelegates should take the election from the voters.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. The Only Lack Of Integrity Is In Denying 1.7 Legitimate Voters Their Voice.

Are any of them complaining? Are any of them claiming that their votes shouldn't be counted, and had the candidates campaigned they would've changed their vote? Are any of those voters outraged that there's a chance their voice MIGHT be heard if the delegates were seated? Don't you find that lack of outrage even the slightest bit relevant to the notion that maybe THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING when they voted?

Obama even had ads running in the state. Hillary didn't. Neither of them truly campaigned, though Obama had an edge with his ads. But the voters in FL had more than adequate opportunities to see his campaign on tv a billion times, see him in debates, see his ads, research him online etc. It's pathetic and weak to act as if these voters didn't make an educated decision.

And ya wanna know something? Wanna know a fact? They campaigned in Jersey. Know what? I would've had no fucking idea. Their campaigning here wasn't visible to me whatsoever. I knew all that knew from tv, radio, and online. I voted accordingly with my KNOWLEDGE. Every one else I know, in the hundreds, who I've spoken with, voted in the same way, without ever having really been exposed to their Jersey campaigns. Did we not make informed decisions? Should ALLLLLLLLL of our votes be dismssed too, because we didn't attend any campaign functions? What utter bullshit.

1.7 million voted and they knew full well who they were voting for and why. You want to take their fucking voices away because you don't want Hillary to win. Now THAT'S a lack of integrity. Disgusting.

[sandnsea]

76. They don't know what the hell happend

You do. You can fill your posts up with thousands of words and it doesn't change the simple fact that there was NEVER supposed to be Democratic Primary Elections in FLorida or Michigan. NEVER. You know that. The Florida Democrast should admit that they were playing games with the election system and sit down and shut up until the convention.

And just because you didn't notice the activitiy of a particular campaign doesn't mean there wasn't one. It only means that you aren't any Democrat's target audience, which doesn't surprise me in the least.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. Here's A Clue For Ya: Over 90% Of Voters Probably Don't Go To Any Campaign Events.

Furthermore, you continue to denigrate the citizens of Florida by implying they don't know what happened. These aren't people that live in caves. They are people like you and me, and you should give them far more credit. Like I said, No one in Jersey I know voted the way the did because of some campaign event they went to. Should our votes not count? Of course they should, and the overwhelming voice of Florida voters should count as well, regardless of the lack of campaigning.

And your little attempt at painting me as anything other than a Democrat is weak and pathetic. Grow up.

[sandnsea]

104. A campaign is a lot more than an event

The only way to defeat name recognition and the support of local politicians is with a grassroots organization of your own. That was not a fair primary election and that's all there is to it. You pretend that people had all the information they needed to know what was happening with the delegates, yet say you never got any information from a campaign. Well that's the kind of information you get from a campaign. There was no campaign in Florida because the election was never certified by the DNC which the courts upheld. It was the Potemkin Primary, really.

And when you say you didn't get any campaign info except from tv, radio and the internet - you leave yourself open to the speculation. I don't think I've ever had an election cycle go by that I didn't get some kind of mailing, phone call, or some other contact from a campaign.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

110. Same Tired Old 'Name Recognition' Argument. C'mon Now, What Is This, A Year Ago?

Neither one of them was able to have the grassroots strategy and it was an even playing field. And are you so monumentally ignorant to believe that because you get mailings or phonecalls, that all voters do? How narrow minded and short sighted.

The voters of Florida knew exactly who they were voting for and why. You want to take their voice away because their vote didn't go YOUR way. Why don't you just come out and admit it rather than hiding behind the same tired old excuses?

All election activities are a game. The whole damn thing is a game. Sometimes there are many components to the game and sometimes there's less. But in the end of it all, there are a MILLION aspects of the election that aren't truly perfect, fair or of the highest integrity. The media itself isn't fair. Caucuses themselves are a HUGE joke and should be DISALLOWED from the process. Even the way grassroots campaigns are run is less than honorable in so many ways. From financing, to ads, to unfair attacks, to who speaks better, to who has the better talking point to be used against them, to a million other things, elections are simply just a game playing with the minds of voters. In Florida, there were still a million different exposures to the GAME of the election, but a few components were missing. But not all components always have to be present for the voice heard through the election to have merit. Some states have caucuses, some don't. Some states have confusing ballots, some don't. Some states get more attention, others don't. It's a game. One big game. When really looked at to its core, ALL elections are a huge farce as it relates to their core integrity and fairness. Look at voter turnout for christ's sake. More voters STAY HOME than vote at all! If every single person was forced to vote, WHO KNOWS how the results of elections would turn out! But it doesn't work that way. Elections aren't perfect. They're GAMES. But just because one piece of the GAME in Florida wasn't able to be played, DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE GAME WASN'T PLAYED. It was. 1.7 Million voters went out in record breaking numbers to have their voices heard. THAT WAS MORE THAN ENOUGH of a pool of voters to deem the election game sufficient. And yes, it wasn't perfect. BUT GUESS WHAT??? Neither was any other goddamn election! And you wanna know something? Until I hear EACH GODDAMN 'DON'T SEAT THE DELEGATES' supporter come out JUST AS HARD against the bullshit concept of caucuses, then their words will ring hollow as the disenfranchising selfishly motivated hypocrites they are. Know why? Because as much flaw as you can find in the way Florida went down, there's TEN TIMES the flaws found in the concept of caucuses. So until I hear you rant and rave about how unfair the caucus concept is, your words as they relate to Florida don't mean a goddamn thing to me.

[sandnsea]

124. That's what makes it a campaign

The people running get on the ground, bring people in, identify dedicated voters, keep them engaged, and build an organization to get them to the polls. That's the entire point of a campaign. If that's missing, you don't have a campaign, you have an advertising blitz. A lot of people want to have national advertising blitz day, and it's a terrible mistake. It's no way to run a democracy.

Of course, if you think it's all a big game anyway, then it's no wonder you don't give a crap about fairness in the process.

Caucuses have value too, in building a local Democratic Party in states where its been missing for a long time. There's strength in numbers and knowing who your fellow Dems are. Caucuses are supposed to benefit the active party members, and the active party members usually benefit the established name. The fact that the caucuses went against Hillary really tells you that those who know most about her are the ones who rejected her.

Bottom line, Florida decided to play games with their election and lost. Hillary isn't going to get to steal it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

135. Why Am I Not Surprised That You Couldn't Quite Comprehend The Points In My Post.

All you're doing is repeating yourself, and your points are quite weak as they relate to what I laid out. But I'm not overly shocked that you just aren't 'getting it'.

And you can't steal something you legitimately won. 1.7 million voters would find your statement to be moronic.

[sandnsea]

138. You know what

fuck off.

[dysfunctional press]

43. BUT-were they rushing out solely to vote in a presidential primary...

where they ALREADY KNEW that their votes in that race weren't going to count, or were they going to the polls specifically to vote on some other issue(s)/race(s) on the ballot?

it seems inconceivable to me that throngs of voters would flock to the polls to cast a vote that they already knew to be meaningless.

[jackson_dem]

17. It is unfair to disenfranchise people. Obama needs to understand why we are the DEMOCRATIC Party

[RamboLiberal]

25. Let's see her win after she pisses off the African American

vote that was disenfranchised in Michigan. And you know if she wins the nom this way it won't be just the Michigan African-American Dem voters who won't be voting for her.

The message from Michigan, suggests veteran Detroit Free Press columnist Stephen Henderson, is that if Clinton is the Democratic nominee she'll "have a real challenge building an electoral coalition that can win in November."

"(A) Democrat won't win without carrying a significant slice of the African-American vote or reaching out to independents," explained Henderson.

It is hard to argue with that assessment.

It is harder still to believe that Clinton will get very far claiming Michigan handed her a meaningful victory Tuesday night. When two out of every five voters choose nobody rather than a prominent candidate who is running with little or no opposition, that candidate's got no reason to celebrate.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=271003

But the smarter of the hacks realized what would happen if Michigan, with its large and vocal black population, insisted on attempting to deliver the nomination to Mrs. Clinton - without giving anyone a chance to vote for Mr. Obama.

"You can forget about carrying Michigan for any Democrat for 20 years," one officeholder said. "You'll be too busy worrying about the riots that may break out instead."

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080215/COLUMNIST17/802150320/-1/NEWS

[joshcryer]

31. The DNC could give uncommitted to Obama. Obama chose to take his name off the ballot...

...he was not told to do that. As others have pointed out he did it to appease the first caucus states.

[RamboLiberal]

38. Why are you Clinton people so afraid of doing another vote?

With both names on a ballot or caucus. Cause you know in a fair contest Obama will probably win Michigan!

[joshcryer]

55. I'd be happy for a do-over, but that's changing the rules, something Obama supporters didn't want.

That's changing the rules outside of the democratic process. The DNC would have to subvert the process to get a revote to happen.

[jackson_dem]

66. That is like asking for the Super Bowl to played again in New England

Obama lost last time. A revote would give him the advantage of having the vote at a time when he is much stronger. That is like if Hillary changed the rules and got Iowa to vote last October.

[joshcryer]

72. True, he has the momentum that changes the whole dynamic. It *would* be like Hillary...

...got Iowa to vote last October! Great analogy. :)

[RamboLiberal]

39. Dupe - self delete

[jackson_dem]

61. But it shouldn't. Many of those votes were for Edwards

Let uncommitted vote its conscience.

The exit poll asked how folks would have voted if all the candidates were on the ballot. Hillary would have won anyway with 46, Obama would have 35, Edwards 12, Kucinich 2, and Richardson 1. http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/index.html#MIDEM

[joshcryer]

65. Edwards dropped out so they'd broker the uncommitteds to whoever he endorsed.

But yeah the exit polls could come into play, I was just pointing out that those "disenfranchised" voters were merely people who chose not to be represented by their preferred candidate.

Obama chose not to be represented there, for political reasons.

[jackson_dem]

60. Racist blackmail from the Obama camp. A sign of what is to come at the convention?

We know the Obama campaign is using the race card to win over superdelegates. I expect them to use it again if this goes to the convention.

All Americans have a right to vote and their vote has an equal voice. There was a vote in Michigan. Hillary, Kucinich, Dodd, and I think also Gravel were on the ballot. Obama and Edwards supporters had the option of voting uncommitted. Hillary won. Are we to override the will of the people of Michigan because one subgroup of the population disagreed?

You conveniently omit the lying and smearing Obama did to turn blacks against Hillary right before Michigan, just in time for South Carolina.

[dysfunctional press]

46. who's being disenfranchised? certainly not MI or FL voters...

they knew beforehand that the votes would be meaningless because the delegates wouldn't be seated.

[joshcryer]

56. They knew which is why they came out in record numbers?

Perhaps they wanted their voices to be heard?

[dysfunctional press]

134. or perhaps there were other issues/races on the ballots?

since it was already widely known that their democratic presidential primary votes would NOT be heard.

[ORDem]

77. This, and the threat to use SDs to subvert the voters is really

really hurting Clinton.

For the life of me I can't understand why the campaign and her supporters are pushing on this at all. It makes her look like she'll do anything regardless of whether it's fair or not to win. I mean if you were smart about it you'd at least bring this crap up AFTER the primaries, not now.

But then, this campaign seems to have a habit of shooting itself in both feet over and over again.

:dem:

[GoldieAZ49]

113. A 6 yr old has more sense than Hillary and some of her supporters - Heres one!

[Cha]

19. But, team clinton does not

understand that and more..they've been obtuse from the get go when they hired the strategist from hell, mark penn. They were prepared for battle but their poll's strategy makes it look like he learned at the knee of lee atwater but didn't grasp how to handle the media as well.

[LakeSamish706]

20. All I can say is this whole thing with SD and MI/FL is a friggin mess....

Sure hope that the DNC figures out something better for our next primaries.

[dogman]

23. So Obama thinks like a six year old?

It is not that simple, six year olds are not recognized as having full reason.

[RamboLiberal]

27. No his 6 year old has more common sense than

Clinton's shameless grab for these delegates. Kids do have an amazing sense of fair play!

[dogman]

35. I take it you did not vote in MI or FL.

How about some one taking away your right to vote because of the acts of others? Isn't that kind of how we ended up with President w?

[RamboLiberal]

42. You know what - if my state legislature was so stupid to screw

up like Florida or Michigan, I wouldn't want my state's votes to count.

In Pennsylvania our votes usually don't any way since our primary is so late. We're overjoyed that for once we might actually have a say in the nominee!

Some of us who have late primaries have for years endured the nominee the early states picked! You think Kerry was my first choice?

[dogman]

63. If your state legislature is dominated by GOPers, it probably is stupid.

But they're smart enough to disenfranchise Democratic voters, once again.

[GoldieAZ49]

115. A 6 yr old has more sense than Hillary and some of her supporters - Heres one!

[dogman]

137. See post 136.

[jlake]

24. I agree. Obama and his supporters have the logic of a 6 year old.

[RamboLiberal]

28. And some of you Clinton supporters are like toddlers

in their terrible two's!

[GoldieAZ49]

116. A 6 yr old has more sense than Hillary and some of her supporters - Heres one!

[Cronus Protagonist]

30. I'm confident that, in the end, all the votes cast will be counted

Hypocrisy is not a Democratic trait.

[joshcryer]

34. I hope it doesn't come to Obama not seating them.

Otherwise yep I imagine they'll count if Obama seats them.

[Cronus Protagonist]

44. Even the Democratic leadership can see the future if they refuse to count votes

A 4 years old could tell them that. Perhaps the 6 year old running the Obama campaign could hire a 4 year old to help make the decision.

[RamboLiberal]

47. The DNC knows that if they give Clinton the nom with FL and MI

It's going to be 1968 all over again and McCain will win! Just like Florida in 2000 the African-American vote is disenfranchised. You think they're going to take that lying down?

It would be a pyrrhic victory for Hillary. She and Bill will be remembered for destroying the Democratic party for quite a few years.

[joshcryer]

52. If they give either candidate the nomination without a plurality of the votes...

...then you can bet the nominee won't win.

[Cronus Protagonist]

53. I don't care about politics, people who cast votes MUST have them counted

Is this a democracy or not? Even a 4 year old could understand that. I personally don't care who wins in the end, much, but votes cast must be counted. I think we all learned that unalterable fact from campaign 2000.

[RamboLiberal]

And people who didn't cast votes cause they were assured

they wouldn't be counted must also be allowed to be counted!

[joshcryer]

62. Oh yeah, record turnouts really represent people who believed their votes didn't count.

Get back to me when 12% of WA state with specific timed caucuses where campainging is allowed right there on the grounds actually represent the population there.

[Cronus Protagonist]

118. They succumbed to political influence, and I agree they should get to vote

Good luck, however, getting a Republican controlled state to run another election for the Democratics. Since that won't happen, the least we can do is to count the votes of the people who voted. That's not too hard to understand, is it?

[MethuenProgressive]

40. There goes Barack, pimping his daughter for political gain.

According to DUs Obama backers "pimping" isn't a bad word, and I was "petty" to complain about it.
So, following their lead...

[1776Forever]

50. To bad you can't be suspended! I never said that about the word pimp - Shows your character!!!!!!!

:mad:

[joshcryer]

57. DAMN.

Your post will probably get deleted but that was a burn.

[MethuenProgressive]

68. DU's Obamas supported and defended the use of that phrase, so it must be OK.

I'd never have included it in my vocabulary if not for the overwhelming endorsement as "correct" and "free speech" by the Obamas.


edit: spelt bad

[DS1]

78. You argue like a child.

You know that, right?

[MethuenProgressive]

92. Did I forget the smiley?

:hi:

[sniffa]

94. Ignored has that habit

[Hoof Hearted]

79. You were just trying to be "hip", Don't they have a sense of humor?

I mean, if it was OK for Schuster to talk about Hillary Clinton pimping out her daughter, then you must be REALLY COOL to talk about BO pimping his six year old. It's getting blown way out of proportion, I think.

:eyes:

[MethuenProgressive]

89. "Kicking Republican Ass," is a great sig line photo

Advice: Never google:image pimping with your wife in the room.

[Hoof Hearted]

125. .

:spray:


:rofl:

[rinsd]

105. That you wallow in THEIR mud does not make wallowing acceptable.

[1776Forever]

48. This is a gimmy to me! How can we allow BUSH rules in the Presidency again???

Bush likes to change the rules in the middle of the game - What rules???? This is unfortunately a typical old-time way of doing things in the political world. When it is in your favor - punt - and fudge, lie and cheat to get whatever you want!

And I live in Florida! We were told our vote WOULD NOT COUNT! There were a lot of people that did not vote!

Either don't count them or re-do the vote!!!!!!!!!!

:headbang: :headbang:

[MonkeyFunk]

81. No

you've got it backwards. Bush liked to not count the votes.

The votes in Florida have been cast, and the outcome was clear. There's no dispute as to the will of the voters.

[MichiganVote]

51. Clinton did not force Obama to remove his name from the ballot. That was his choice.

[1776Forever]

58. His and Biden's, Dodd's, Edward's but not HRC - Hmm - Even after she had signed up to do it!

Disgusting! This makes me sick at my stomach!!!!!!

:puke:

[joshcryer]

69. Don't forget Kucinich!

:hi:

[MonkeyFunk]

84. None of them signed up to

remove their names from the ballot.

[MichiganVote]

87. Edwards, Biden and Obama requested their names be removed from the ballot.

[Bicoastal]

59. Edwards, Biden, Richardson, and Kucinich made the same choice as Obama...

...so what does Hillary Clinton know that these other fine Dems don't?

Seems fishy to me--I think she planned this from the start. Positively Rovian.

[joshcryer]

70. That the pledge didn't require them to remove their name from the ballot?

And that she wanted to be represented there, because the voters deserved representation?

[Bicoastal]

73. Yeah, and Bush went into Iraq because Iraqis were clamoring for freedom.

Come on--she knew she'd win on a technicality, and could use her "win" later in case she was behind.

[joshcryer]

75. No, by removing your name from a ballot you are essentially saying "I am not represented."

By doing so you are shafting those people who went to the polls. Everyone did it for political reasons to placate Iowa. They did not have to do it under any circumstance. They did it for political reasons and in the process disenfranchised voters from having their voice heard clearly, except for the ones who were indeed represented.

[Bicoastal]

82. That would be true ONLY if the candidates had been allowed to campaign in those states!

To me, an election with no campaigning is a complete popularity contest based which candidate has the most recognition. What if ALL of our primaries were done that way, historically--we'd have nominated Paul Tsongas in 1992 and Dick Gephardt in 2004. Who knows what would have happened nationally if that had been the case?

Campaigning is what makes a political race in any shape competitive and there is no way Hillary can weasel out of that. Positively Rovian, seriously.

[joshcryer]

85. So the fuck what? People can vote how they chose.

I don't see the issue.

[Cronus Protagonist]

120. You are correct., of course

One can even write in the name of their next door neighbor, should they so choose.

[MichiganVote]

90. Kucinich left his name on the ballot. Even after the others removed their names...

they could have applied for and were offered write in status. They declined. Clinton didn't plan anything. She left her name on the ballot as Obama and Edwards did in Florida later on.

[Bicoastal]

54. THIS JUST IN: Hillary Clinton to appear as a contestant on hit TV Game show...

"Are you More Ethically-Challenged Than a Fifth Grader?"

[DrDan]

64. he just lost my vote

if he chooses to ignore all these voters, then he does not deserve my vote

[joshcryer]

67. He thought he'd run away with it Feb 5th, so he wasn't worried about having to disenfranchise...

...all those voters. As the tides are showing a much closer race, he's beginning to change his tune.

[Hoof Hearted]

80. Hello from Kearney Dr. Dan! GO HUSKERS!

:hi:

[DrDan]

106. Hey Kearney

born in St Paul . . .

How is Bo doing? Got a good group of assistants on board yet?

Can't wait until Sep. Got good feelings about this upcoming year. Maybe we will be rid of two bad influences.

[Hoof Hearted]

127. I'm in for that.

We of course lost a lot of good recruits, but Bo did a good job of getting them back and then some.

The assistants are looking better than ever. It's going to be one hell of an adjustment - AGAIN - but I think by game 4 (or sooner) we'll see some good old fashioned smash-mouth again. I can't wait!

[AJH032]

71. correct me if I'm wrong

but was it not Obama's choice to take his name off the ticket? By that same logic, couldn't Clinton just take her name off the Wisconsin ballot, and demand the state's delegates not to count?

(Yes, I know it wasn't agreed on, but that's a separate argument. Obama's logic seems puzzling)

[joshcryer]

74. Obama's "logic" is just politics. He has no problem disenfranchising voters.

As I said before the only situation where they would not be seated is if Obama chose not to seat them. He was for seating them, even said that he would campaign to seat them, only a month ago. He figured he'd win Feb 5th in a landslide, and now his tune has changed to the point where he said he wouldn't seat them at all! What the fuck!

[Hoof Hearted]

83. This just in: Obama to voters - fuck you. Even my six year old knows you don't count.

FEEL the unity! FEEL the hope!

Obama looks at Florida and Michigan and says NO YOU CAN'T!

[joshcryer]

86. It'd be different if he was never for seating them, but he was. He flip flops here.

He's a political opportunitist who has no problem disenfranchising voters.

[ButterflyBlood]

93. She got that right

This is like holding an exhibition game, some of the team's best players sit it out to prepare for the actual upcoming season, and then after the game is over and that team loses the league decides the game will count anyway. Uh, NOT FAIR.

[Clinton Crusader]

96. Even my 6 Year Old Understands it's not Fair

And that's his core voting group, based on DU

[flyarm]

97. ahh yoo hoo ohhh Obama... remember when you said this? and you broke the rules in Fla???

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking
Barack Obama held an impromptu news conference after a Tampa fundraiser Sunday.


By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 30, 2007



TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.

The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences."

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. … If that's the case, then we won't do it again."

[joshcryer]

100. Wow! Owned!

[1awake]

98. It makes no difference really,

count the votes by all means, Hillary is going to lose no matter what. No.. it isnt going to be all that close. The only person it will hurt is Hillary, in the long run at least. The entie situation is screwed up. If we don't count the votes, then two states will not be heard in any real sense and we run the risk of losing both in the general. If we do count the states, Then it will appear Hillary cheated, the DNC can't enforce anything.. even its own rules, the Democratic party will fracture and we will lose the election, though she may win the nom. So count them.. or don't. either way it will damage our party.

[joshcryer]

101. Yep, I expect her to step down by March 5th. But the smears will continue until then, sadly.

[1awake]

103. What makes me mad is

We got the people on both side arguing their points, and neither seem to understand how badly we are fucking ourselves over.. and theres not very many ways to avoid it at this point. "The people have spoken"... "Don't break the rules!" .... they should both STFU, because in the end, its going to kill our party.. no not in the primaries, but in the general. If things continue, its going to be a race to see who's going to be the designated loser of the general, and thats about it. Either way it goes for Florida and Michigan, it hurts us bigtime. But no.. that doesn't mean jack compared to our peddy squabbling on minuscule differences... bah.. maybe I need to step away for awhile lol.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

107. Exactly, isnt that one of the first life lessons children learn

or should learn? what's fair, what constitutes cheating

[GoldieAZ49]

109. The 6 yr old has more sense than Hillary and some of her supporters

unfortunately.

[carlotta]

114. Oh, my. Is Obama "pimping out" his daughter?

Just thought I'd ask.

[cbayer]

119. Great, can he explain it to me?

Check out this link. This thing is really complicated.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/15/17261/4418

[boston bean]

128. please make this it's own post. it is a great explanation to what happened in FL

Donna Brazile is behind this?????

[cbayer]

129. I have but it is being massively ignored. Here is link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4609778

[cbayer]

130. And yes, it appears she is. Feel free to start thread with link. nt.

[Beausoir]

121. Oh c'mon. What a load of nonsense. His 6 year old??

Yeah. right.

[lligrd]

123. Rules Are Rules - Doesn't Matter Who Said What nt

[Ronnie]

126. To paraphrase JFK.

Life is not fair. Get over it.

[Political Heretic]

132. Pretty sure that's what fascist dictators say about rigged elections too.

[Political Heretic]

131. Six year olds unite!