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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:11 AM
Original message
"Cult" meme reaches German media. Does anyone care?
Here's the cover of this week's issue of DER SPIEGEL (Germany's answer to TIME magazine):

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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hillary is obviously powerful
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 07:15 AM by BuffyTheFundieSlayer
She's infiltrated the German media.

Or maybe it was me. My ancestors are German, as is my last name.


Heil Hillary!




In case anybody is impaired: :sarcasm:
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jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. well, you know...
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 07:15 AM by jakem
they were right about Hasselhoff's incredible singing talent. so...

:doireallyneedasarcasmtag:
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Angela Shelley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Dont make fun of him, he attracted bigger crowds than you did!
:-)
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jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. You are right I hardly draw a crowd in Germany--
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 07:26 AM by jakem
:wtf:

omn edit: are you defending Hasselhoff?! I am so confused!!
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Angela Shelley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. No need for confusion.
Yes, I am defending Hasselhoff, because he made alot of "honest money" with his musical talent in Germany, and maybe in other countries as well,

something which I have never done and never will be able to.

But, I didnt mean to be offensive, I was offering some sarcasm which you desperately need today.

Hope the sun is shining on your patio today!

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jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. No Offense taken-

just surprised! I mean, I did enjoy his work in Knight Rider...

:hi:
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Angela Shelley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. and I loved his song "Ive been looking for freedom"
:-)
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. probly not enough people care
to keep obama from getting the nomination. maybe enough people care to keep him from winning in nov
if he wins in nov, almost certainly enough people care about it enough to start beating it like a drum as soon as the honeymoon ends
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Raejeanowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. I Predict
That if he wins, the honeymoon will give him just enough time to brush his teeth and hop into bed.
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Raejeanowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. I Predict
That if he wins, the honeymoon will give him just enough time to brush his teeth and hop into bed.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. "Barack Obama and the longing for a new America."
Not having read the article itself, I'd say by the subhead that it may be a fair description of what's going on here for a lot of people. Barack is seen as a charismatic leader for the change so many of us want so desparately.

(And note the article on McCain wanting more Germans in Afghanistan.)
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. "The Messiah Factor" is the main headline
So that's how I saw the connection with the "cult" meme that has been going around.

I guess they are suggesting that some people see Obama as some kind of a saviour.

Or something like that.

But of course they get all their ideas from watching and reading the US media.

I don't think Obama spends much time talking with European reporters.

PS - I can tell you - Britain and Holland also want the Germans to do more in Afghanistan!

The German troops who are there right now only patrol in the less dangerous areas.

And they only work during regular office hours (according to the British media).

As far as I know - Clinton and Obama also want to defeat the Taliban.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Informative. Thanks.
I guess I really don't much care what the Brits think, but the Dutch are generally fairly sane about international politics.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
6. Not at all. Sticks and stones...
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. And many Germans are saying: "Here We Go Again!" nm
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Did you just compare Barack Obama with ...
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 07:32 AM by Apollo11
Shame on you, Tellurian! :P
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. actually, I was comparing him to Bush..
The "I don't have a problem with dictators, as long as that dictator is me."

Hitler? Don't tell me Obama has German ancestors too!
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Comparing Obama with Hitler?
LOL! Some of you hilldroids really love to make utter fools of yourself. Thanks for the laugh.

:rofl:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
32. But yet he leads Hillary 43-39 in Germany.
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Gidney N Cloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
15. Und...?
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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
16. Not good /nt
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
20. But "nobody is pushing the cult 'meme' outside of DU!"
:sarcasm:
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
44. It's only worldwide
But "la la la la I can't hear you idiots" will solve any cognitive dissonance problem. :P
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
22. Perhaps it's not a meme.
Perhaps people have independently observed the groupthink and messianism for themselves and reached the obvious conclusion on their own.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Man, you are gonna be so screwed when the BARAPTURE comes!
And all the Hillbots, McCainites and Dead-Enders will be "Left Behind"! B-)
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
45. No kidding.
Some of us have been trying to get that point across for a while but it's been falling on plugged ears.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
23. "Meme" meme spreads on DU like fungus.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yes, the meme meme is the worst meme of all! n/t
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. It has to be the most overused word on DU. n/t
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. We know you don't really meme that!
;-)
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Bongo Prophet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. But enough about meme, i want to know more about ewes. Baah.
You know what they say,
A lie can make it halfway around the world
before the truth can put its jackboots on.

It is the Obamachmedinejihadis who do all the hatin'
Never the gentle and experienced Master Race.

They spread their butter on the wrong side of the bread
better butter on the bottom, better black white and red
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
25. Germany and the rest of the world seem to be keeping a close eye on this election
A crew from German public television was introduced to the crowd at the caucus in Boise last week.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. SOME German coverage of the race is very biased against Obama
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 08:59 AM by beachmom
Apparently, this is just one writer who clearly hates Obama. So maybe the bias is not as bad as I thought.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,533415...

Try as he might, Obama is failing so far to win over ordinary people. It's hard to whip up enthusiasm among the down-to-earth voters of the center ground, people who are too preoccupied with the everyday problems of life to get swept up by Obama's grand pledge to turn over a new leaf in the history book. His message doesn't have much impact among them.

His name is Gabor Steingart. Avoid him like the plague.




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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. He's one of those leftovers
that fondly remembers the 1990s. :eyes: Move on.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
29. I was in Germany a couple of times between 2004 and 2008.
And I can tell you that they ASSUMED Hillary Clinton would be the next president. They like Bill Clinton, especially compared to Bush, and it makes sense that from a foreign perspective, they would want the Clintons back in, since they're comfortable with them.

There was no coverage of Obama at all until he made his remarks on Pakistan, which IMO were misinterpreted, as what he said is actually U.S. policy right now. Then he comes out of nowhere, from their perspective, to win Iowa. The weird thing is a Spiegel writer called the prospect of Obama becoming the nominee, "An Iowa Fairy Tale". Interesting, that Bill Clinton used the exact phrase to describe Obama's being agains the Iraq War.

I can tell you that my sister in law likes Hillary, and that my mother in law made a point of sending me an article on Obama's remarks on Pakistan. The Germans simply know next to nothing on Obama, and are puzzled to why America would not go for the Clintons. They don't understand how hated Hillary is in America, since Bill is SO popular in Europe.

My only response to Germans, who were 90% against the Iraq War, is that Hillary supported it, and Obama opposed it. Not only that, Bill Clinton counseled Tony Blair to support the Iraq War. So maybe they need to rethink why they love Hillary so much, when the devil is in the details.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
30. I think it's something his campaign has to be willing to deal with
It kind of comes with framing the campaign as a "movement" and centering it on his ability to get people excited.

The alternative is being accused of "politics as usual," I suppose. So either way, there's always something negative to say.
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Bongo Prophet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. Now Sparkly, there you go again, being all insightful and stuff.
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 09:23 AM by Bongo Prophet
I have read scientific proof that the Obama supporters are twice as hatin' as the other side - quantifiable, mind you - and as we all know, that is one of the signs of fascism. First they take manhatten, then they take berlin.


It is not just true, it is SCIENCE
and I was totally blinded by it!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
33. Okay. So, where's the cult reference?
Obama has been called a Messiah candidate for a long time. That's different than being a cult-leader. The headline seems to be claiming that Obama is popular among those who long for a new America. I don't think that's out of the ordinary.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. OK - so they "only" compared Obama with The Messiah
As a rationalist, I find it very hard to see the difference between regular religions and cults.

Something like Scientology is a religion in the USA and Spain, but considered a cult in France and Germany.

The point is, some of Obama's supporters really seem to have high expectations of what Barack can do.

But I don't want to suggest it's a bad thing that thousands of people flock to hear him speak.

He is getting millions of people involved and fired up. Nothing wrong with that.

The point of this thread is just to let folks see this magazine cover.

It's kind of weird to see a Senator being compared with The Messiah.

I mean - nobody ever did that with John Kerry! ;-)
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Not "The Messiah." Messiah candidate. Al Gore is a Messiah candidate here.
Obama is a Messiah candidate to many of his supporters. Many people believe he can fix everything. That doesn't mean they're a cult, or that they're a religion. It just means that he's a politician who has successfully sold himself to many people.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Scientology is considered a cult by many here as well
Rational people, anyway.

And any person being compared with The Messiah reeks of cultism.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
34. More info here. It's not that bad an article actually:
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 08:56 AM by beachmom
http://www.dialoginternational.com/dialog_international...

Reader AB was kind enough to send me the article. It is actually pretty good - NOT written by Steingart, but rather by Klaus Brinkbumer and Marc Hujer. It does repeat some of the demographic misinformation that the US media propagate - that Obama only appeals to affluent white males and African Americans. The results yesterday in "white" states Nebraska and Washington - where he won in every county - show that he has broad support across all gender, racial, age, and income groups. The article does get to the heart of Senator Obama's enormous appeal to many Americans: he personifies the promise of a better America:

Beweist Barack Obama, der schwarze
Demokrat, der hier zu Hause ist, hier in
Chicago, hier in dieser Kirche, nicht gerade
das Gegenteil? Sieht in diesen Wochen
nicht die ganze Welt dabei zu, wie ein anderes
Amerika entsteht? Ein friedliches,
gtiges, mitfhlendes? Die Vlker in Europa,
in Asien warten auf so ein Amerika,
eines, das nicht immer sofort zu militrischen
Interventionen greift, das wieder
zuhren kann und seine Gste willkommen
heit, ein Amerika, das die Vereinten
Nationen ernst nehmen und vielleicht sogar
sttzen wird, das Multilateralismus
schon aus Eigeninteresse anstrebt.
Und wird das nicht ein Amerika sein, in
dem endlich wirklich ein jeder werden
kann, was er werden will? In dem alle
krankenversichert sind, Migranten willkommen,
Lehrer gut bezahlt, in dem Rstungsetats
fr Forschungsfinanzierung umgewidmet
werden und die Schlaglcher der
South Side wieder zu Straen?


So I recommend this article. As reader Archilocos points out in the comments below, the issue also contains an extended interview with John McCain. I'll post my thoughts on this later...


I can translate part of it (VERY roughly): All of Europe and Asia is waiting for America that is not so immediately militaristic, and will listen, and be more multilateral. This is welcome.

I think they also like that he lived abroad, and that he went to the streets of the South side of Chicago to help.

Any German speakers, to do a better job than me translating?
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
35. Knock-knock, I LIVE in Germany, people are very tuned in
and ALOT of people LIKE what they see in Obama. They are very curious about him.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
36. It's the hopemonger!
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 08:57 AM by stillcool47
Democratic presidential hopeful, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., plays with Eric Hansen, 11 months, during a visit to Nicky's Cruisin' Diner Saturday, Feb. 9, 2008, in Bangor, Me. (AP Photo/Rick Bowmer)

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Bongo Prophet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Where you or I may see a playful child, some will see Obama Youth.
It comes every few years:



"The man from Hope, bringing 'a new covenant'" -- bill Clinton (all good)

"Keep hope alive!" -- Jesse Jackson (too...you know)

"Audacity of hope" -- Barack Obama (reincarnation of hitler and MalcomX)



I don't know how they do it.
I thought it was YOU guys who had the kool-aid.
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
42. .
Sorry, but that's very misleading and if it's possible, one should try to read the whole article before drawing conclusions.
While I admit that I don't remember every part of it (as it was a long article), I'm pretty sure that it had nothing to do with the "cult" thing some on DU like to throw around or about blindly following someone.
I think it was a pretty good article. Quite objective and neither directed against Obama nor Clinton. It was more about his background, the story of his life so that people get to know him better (to name a few subjects: his childhood and family, his wife, his speech in 2004).
Concerning the cover, I assume it was more about him being a symbol for an America that many in the US and the world are waiting for after these dark Bush years.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Sorry - I guess I am guilty of jumping on the cult meme bandwagon
just as a way of keeping my own thread kicked so more folks would see it.

I hope folks aren't taking this too seriously.

Barack Obama has always made it clear that his campaign is not about him. It is about all of us.

That's probably why his crowds chant "Yes We Can!" more often than "O-BA-MA!" B-)
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