Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's rant against Dean.

[madfloridian]

And you know what? This is, incidentally, a person who not too long ago asked another Democrat why she was not able to get people to do anything. She said nobody wanted to work, no one was enthusiastic. Nobody volunteered anymore.

County leaders reject do-overs

LAKELAND | Polk County Democratic Party leaders, like party officials throughout the state, are saying no to the "do-over" recommended by National Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean. Ignoring the primary and replacing its results with a caucus might satisfy national party leaders, but it won't satisfy Florida, local Democratic officials said.

..."Howard Dean is trying to squirm out of the mess he's created," said Polk County Democratic Party Chairwoman Nancy Simmons. "They already gave us those options months ago. The voters of Florida have spoken."

This is the same chairperson who sent one of the many emails that the state county chairpersons sent out saying in effect to stop donations to the DNC. They all put the blame for the moved up early primary and loss of voter choice on the DNC. They never presented both sides.

Shifting blame..email excerpt

. We need to impress on the DNC that they must to change their minds. More is at stake here than the delegates. The Republicans would rejoice if we don’t go to the polls since their tax package is also on the ballot! The DNC phone# is [phone]. The contributions # is [phone]. They need to hear from you- all of you- on this issue. Please forward this to anyone on you email list that you think would be interested."

Nancy Simmons wonders why so many people have just not bothered, won't volunteer. In 2003 and 2004, things were changing. DFA people were among the ones who did work gladly. Others were excited. We ran our own candidate for office, get enough petitions to avoid the filing fee, worked the malls to get voters signed up.

Gee, wonder what happened? Gee, could it be the attitude the party leaders have? Refusing to tell the truth? Blaming the national committee for what they did willingly and knowingly?

Anyway, Bill Nelson has already said there will be no caucus. He said it in his usual angry way.

But then we caught up with Bill Nelson today: "Absolutely not," he said when asked if caucuses might be a good idea. "It’s a huge cost."

Nelson, a Clinton backer, remains confident Florida’s delegates will be seated, though he said Howard Dean keeps insisting he’s powerless to make it happen. "It hasn’t sunk into their their thick heads, the chairman and the DNC, the train wreck that’s about to come if we don’t get those delegations seated."

People I talk to are beginning to understand simply by passing the word around that this was an attempt to show how important Florida was. I have had a few ask me if it were an attempt to hurt Dean's place in the party. Floridians are not ignorant. We just don't have very nice leaders. And the media is in full attack mode against the mean Dean and the DNC.

I don't care about a caucus...I don't think a do-over should be allowed. It was offered in the spirit of allowing the votes to count, even though the whole mess was started by Democrats as well as Republicans. Democrats introduced the bill, sponsored it, voted for it by the very wide margin of 115 to one

House Republicans and Democrats passed the earlier primary bill (HB 537) by a 115-1 vote - a challenge to the national parties that are wielding threats in an attempt to prevent a nationwide race for earlier and earlier primaries.

.."Florida lawmakers believe the state's demographic and political diversity merit a greater say in the selection of nominees. They're tired of candidates treating the fourth-largest state as a fundraising ATM, only to take the money to campaign in small states like Iowa and New Hampshire. And they say they are willing to call the bluffs of the national parties, which have threatened to take away delegates the state parties send to the nominating conventions. National Democratic Party rules could even punish candidates who campaign in states that move their primaries earlier than Feb. 5 by essentially not recognizing the state's delegates.

There is not a positive climate here anymore for people who in 2003 were excited and thought they change things. A little dose of truth from the state Democrats would go a long way toward restoring faith in the party...but that will never happen.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

1. Just Seat The Delegates. It's The Right Thing To Do In The Face Of Record Voter Turnout.

Their voices were spoken loudly and clear. 1.7 million of them let their opinions be known. To deny those people their voice would be a disgrace.

[madfloridian]

2. That will not happen until the nominee is chosen.

Florida leaders lied to the people. They all need to be fired for those lies. They hurt us.

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

[robbedvoter]

7. Tell them the delegates will be seated then and end the silly stand-off!

Your posts here are not making Dean look good.

[joshcryer]

60. Superdelegates could chose to seat them if Obama doesn't want to.

Epic if it turns out that way.

[QC]

3. "To deny those people their voice would be a disgrace."

But a small price to pay to uphold the dignity and majesty of Howard Dean!

[WilyWondr]

11. Have you ever heard of rules?

Sunday, August 26, 2007

The Democratic National Committee sought to seize control of its unraveling nominating process yesterday, rejecting pleas from state party leaders and cracking down on Florida for scheduling a Jan. 29 presidential primary.

The DNC's rules and bylaws committee, which enforces party rules, voted yesterday morning to strip Florida of all its delegates to the 2008 Democratic National Convention in Denver -- the harshest penalty at its disposal.

They knew these were the rules and they decided it was worth it to have their primary on Jan 29, 2008.

[QC]

14. The legislature did that.

If Howie & Co. want to punish the people responsible for the problem, deny them their superdelegate status.

That's much more sensible than making enemies of the voters of two of the largest states in order to appease Iowa and New Hampshire.

[madfloridian]

46. Not true. The state party knew and went along for over a year.

It was not just the legislators. The state party spokesperson Mark Bubriski said they were on board with Jeb's Marco Rubio, speaker, as early as March 2006. They all worked together to get it done.

Now they are refusing to accept blame, and they are trying to destroy Dean for what they did.

It is starting to be noticed by the people here through word of mouth...since the media is totally complicit with Florida Dems. Our state chair is one of the biggest lobbyists around, working with the former GOP chair, Al Cardenas, in addition to her day job.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. Sorry, But The Voices And Intent Of 1.7 MILLION Voters Is A Bit More Relevant To Me.

Sad to see it isn't for you.

[WilyWondr]

24. Why did they change the date

when the DNC told them their delegates would not be seated? Did the 1.7 million people contact their state representative to complain then? No.

It makes no sense to whine about this now. They changed the date last summer and were made aware of the consequences at that time.......and they still changed the date.

It is 100% on Florida and Michigan for doing this to themselves.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. Well, I'm Not One To Disenfranchise 1.7 Million Voters Because Of The Mistakes Of A Few.

Their voices were heard. That is inarguable. We know who they wanted and what their intent was. THAT's all that matter. They spoke. They spoke in record numbers and quite loudly. At the end of the day, it is that intent that is the only thing that matters. Seat the fuckin delegates and get over the petty 'but this, but that, bbbbut bbbbut' garbage. We know what the people of Florida wanted and they let it be known quite clearly. Any attempt to silence their voices is nothing more than selfish pettiness on the part of those who would do whatever they have to, or undermine/disenfranchise whoever they have to, for sake of benefiting their candidate. Nothing short of disgraceful.

[WilyWondr]

43. A few?

There are 17 million people in FL. They have representatives to represent them in the legislature. The legislature voted to change the date of the primary EVEN THOUGH their delegates would not be seated.

What is SO hard to understand about that?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. Yay. This Stupid Fucking Argument Again. n/t

[madfloridian]

31. Yes, you are right. They wanted to be "relevant"...link.

They wanted to be relevant.

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance."

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

[PassingFair]

61. What about the other, millions of voters in the country whose

legislators followed the rules?

Why even HAVE a party?

Florida didn't care about their delegates being
seated. They wanted to go first.

Period.

Now that they've gotten their way, it's on to
the next step.

Sounds more like Republicans than Democrats to me.

[madfloridian]

18. He is a good man who cares about our party and country. Florida cares about Florida

and being sure Hillary is the nominee.

[dansolo]

41. That is the same argument used in 2000

To allow the improperly submitted military ballots to be counted. How many votes did Gore lose to Bush from that situation? That alone could have pushed the count to Gore's favor. (Yes I know that Gore really won) What is the point of having rules if people can just selectively disregard them?

[QC]

45. And "rules are rules" was the very same argument used in 2000

to prevent pro-Gore ballots from being counted when their intent was clear but the chads were not completely punched and other such silliness.

Works both ways.

[smiley_glad_hands]

5. Horse Shit.

Follow the damn rules.

[dchill]

10. Right!

Rules matter.

To Democrats, anyway.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. Horseshit Back At Ya. Don't Disenfranchise 1.7 Million Voters Who Let Their Voices Be Known Loudly.

[WilyWondr]

25. Did the FL legislature get 1.7 million

complaints when they changed the date of the primary when they KNEW the consequences last summer?

No, they didn't.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. That's Such A Stupid Argument And You Know It. n/t

[WilyWondr]

37. Because it is not your side of the argument?

You complain about 1.7 million people's opinion not being heard. The opinion of the 17 million people that live in FL was to change the date of their primary. If those 17 million people did not want the FL primary changed they had all of last summer to make sure that it did not change.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. No, Because It Is Quite Simply A Really, Really, Stupid Argument. n/t

[Abacus]

51. Why?

It sounds like a perfectly legitimate argument to me; I thought the ultimatum was reasonable long before I chose a candidate to support or knew who the states would vote for. Leave the dates alone and keep your delegates or move your dates up and lose your delegates. It is unfortunate that the state party leaders decided to gamble away the rights of the citizens -- the rage at Dean is misdirected. Where were all these complaints last year?

Do you understand why the primary schedule is the way it is? The objective is to allow candidates with less money the chance to compete; Florida and Michigan unfairly tried to define the race and were penalized for it. The result is exceptionally unfortunate, but the alternative was worse.

Edited to add:
I would be favorable to some sort of compromise, but first, the states need to admit error and be open to an alternative solution.

[madfloridian]

55. Yes, why? Please tell us why it is a stupid argument.

Please include links and sources.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. If Someone Thinks That The Populace Of Florida Would Really Understand Enough About The Political

process, and that they really were realistically expected to stand up as a whole and overturn the decision, then that person would be a friggin moron. In fact, I find it every bit as moronic of an argument as when someone poses that WE are all responsible for the atrocities in Iraq/U.S. from the Bush administration because we all allowed it to happen blah blah blah. Just a realllllllly stupid friggin argument, that has no merit nor standing to dispute the points I've made above. Dumb argument. Just dumb.

[madfloridian]

58. Then call me a friggin moron. Because I believe people will understand...

when they know. Because I believe the murder of civilians in Iraq is being done in our name. Because I believe most Americans want what it right and proper.

So call me a friggin moron. I am so used to it.

You never provide anything to back up what you say. You are expressing only your opinion, not backing it up with anything.

[GalleryGod]

22. N.J. Bosses & The N.J. Machine Endorsed HRC in April,2007.

SO...it follows that ALL the entrenched Machine Pols and Congressmen who had influence on the Party to "Move it UP!" were ALL HRC Pledges ! That's how it worked in New Jersey.

In FLA. was that the case,also? SURE it WAS! Who would've endorsed Obama with any power & influence with the Fla. Dem Party in 2007 ??? Nobody,that's who.

This is the Clintons "GAMING THE SYSTEM" pure and simple. The power elites in FLA...removed too far from their election districts,now...too much time on Calle Ocho and down on SoBe on Saturday night.

That's ALL IMHEO......

On to Da-MAS-cus!

[Mojorabbit]

28. No

I know too many people who did not go out and vote cause they thought it would not count.
Do it over. I don't care who wins but it needs to be done over.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. That's A Crock Of Shit, And I Don't Buy It For A Second.

When 1.7 million people DID go to the polls, in MORE than record numbers and way more DOUBLING the turnout in 2004, I'm not gonna believe ANYBODY that is going to try and claim that significant amount of voters stayed home. FURTHERMORE, those who DID stay home would've likely been in the same ratio as the results, since there is NO reason to believe those staying home would've been lopsided towards any given candidate. And people stay home EVERY election for a plethora of reasons. But when you have 1.7 MILLION fucking voters speak their intent and voices that loudly, you can't even begin to claim that people didn't show up or the real intent wasn't known.

[Mojorabbit]

49. I live here

and I know personally at least 10 people who did not vote cause it was not going to count.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

50. I'd Wager Much Of Those 10 Wouldn't Have Voted Anyway, And Are Using That As Convenient Excuse.

When you have 1.7 million people in Florida that DID go out and vote, there's no way that there could be that many more who under other circumstances WOULD have, but chose to stay home. It just doesn't add up.

Furthermore, as stated a brazillion times by now, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that those that stayed home would've leaned to one candidate or the other. It would be MORE than reasonable to assume that those who stayed home would've split out in about the same ratio. Millions of people stay home every election, for a million different reasons. What matters is who shows up. And when 1.7 million people do, in record breaking numbers, then it is more than clear that the voices were heard and intent known.

[Mojorabbit]

52. I don't know if it would

have broke out the same or not but some of these dems are family members and would have voted if they had thought it would count so you can't assume they would not have voted anyway. I think it needs a do over.

[madfloridian]

35. Do you really think Hillary's folks here would let that happen now?

Nelson and her other superdelegates here are the ones who pushed it, sued the DNC and lost, and have kept lying.

They can't let a caucus happen....Obama might win now.

[HughMoran]

40. I'm thinking that doing what the Republicans did - count half of them

That might be a reasonable compromise. The rest would be divided depending on their percentages of current delegates going into the convention.

[zanne]

4. Can you explain Florida Democrats to me?

I remember how, in the famous 2000 "selection", alot of Democratic officials just seemed to be so weak and compromising to the Republicans. In particular, when a group of Gore supporters tried to bring the Republican recount vote disruptors to trial, a Democratic judge ruled that they weren't really disrupting anything. What gives?

[ZinZen]

6. I think Howard is on the right side of history

on this one. Unfortunately, he will get all the negative flack but I will be surprised if he backs down. Someone on this board stated that Howard was a stubborn Governor of Vermont and won't be bullied by thugs like Nelson. I am sorry that your party is so arrogant and wrongheaded on this one, because if they do not accept a do over caucus, FL will not not be having it's delegates seated. I just feel bad for FL voters whose arrogant party leaders are disenfranchising their vote.

[madfloridian]

9. There was a nice post at Kos yesterday...

recognizing that his 50 state plan was actually helping to get out the massive turnout of Democrats.

I would not dare put a post like that here at DU anymore. It is getting way too nasty.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

42. Kpete posted it here this morning.

It's a good read.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[madfloridian]

48. Thanks. I missed that.

Glad she posted it.

[HeraldSquare212]

13. Giving blacks and hispanics an important voice in the nominee was brillant.

Two constituencies of the Dem party that are often ignored were given an important vote on the nominee. I guess other states than SC and NV could have been chosen, but those were the two the DNC chose and the rest of the party should have gone along.

It's bizarre to me that a state party that lost a vote and then ignored the fact they lost is complaining because their voters won't be heard - they don't respect he votes of others (i.e., the DNC), why should they expect anyone to respect their vote?

[Cassandra]

16. Nelson could try being a Democrat, for a change...

instead of cuddling up to Bush.

[HeraldSquare212]

8. Their party leaders knew the rules and broke them; now it's apparent they did a stupid thing

they could have had a lot more influence after Super Tuesday than before. Why should we rescue them from their dumb decision? Let the voters take it out on their party leaders in Florida.

[thoughtcrime1984]

15. Exactly! It is the voters responsibility to hold their elected leaders

to the fire for the obvious rules breaking that led to the DNC punishment. Why in the blue fuck do people not understand that Bill Nelson and the other FLA Dem leaders are completely to blame? If Obama stood to gain delegates we wouldn't be hearing the Hillary people chanting to seat the illegal delegates. How noble her cause must be....

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

20. That's not very nice for

the nice folks who do reside in Florida ..

[madfloridian]

26. Someone suggested cutting the state off and letting it drift.

I can understand their sentiment.

[QC]

36. As opposed to the people who launched Nixon and Reagan on their national careers,

and kept the likes of Dannemeyer and Dornan in Congress for years?

[Webster Green]

47. Touche'

You got me there!

[GalleryGod]

17. FLA & Michigan will be seated: According to the FINAL NATIONAL Vote Tally

Between Obama & The Hill. 48% to 48%..then so be it...but we won't sit for yet another "Theft of Florida" as in Stealth Campaign,derived from the word STEAL. Anyhow...MHO.

"Yeah, you got a case,Florida !?"

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

19. With apologies to any Floridians here,

Florida elections are like that relative of yours who keeps screwing up, regardless of how hard he tries, then always blames someone else for it.

Right now, Florida elections are passed out on the couch in their mobile home with a pile of empty beer cans on the floor.

[ctaylors6]

34. you came very close to owing me a new computer screen

I lived several years in florida and have a sister who still lives there. She'd be the first one to roll her eyes and says banana republic.

[557188]

27. The Dems want to lose Florida and Michigan in the GE

Maybe it should be called the 48 state strategy. Unbelievable that the Democrats would continue to protect a few small states over actual important states.

[madfloridian]

33. No, that is just not true. It would have made Hillary inevitable if it counted.

Now things have changed. Now MI and FL simply won't allow a caucus because Obama might win.

[Pathwalker]

59. I take it you don't know about Michigan's Republican machine,

or our state's money problems, then. To say that about Michigan is just incredibly wrong. Our state's last budget battle lasted for months, and they were arguing about very small differences for weeks on end. If you honestly think Michigan's Republican power machine, put in place by John Engler, will allow either a Democratic caucus or a primary to have one dime of taxpayer's money simply because "Obama might win", then you've never investigated this state's politics.
They won't allow it because they have never had a single moment's graciousness in their entire lives. These are the people who criticized Engler for not taking away mental patient's IV's, hospital beds and wheelchairs when he kicked them all into the streets when he closed down every state mental hospital!!
They have already given public statements insisting that they will fight this idea, all while mocking the state AND federal Democratic party for their "inability to run an election in this state."
Republicans have been mocking the Democrats for weeks here in Michigan. The Democrats will not be able to hold either a primary or caucus in this state because the Republicans here will not allow it - because they don't want either Hillary OR Barack to win. Period. They just are enjoying seeing Democrats look like total incompetent fools way too much!

[PassingFair]

62. What if the DNC comes up with the money themselves?

Why should the 'pukes have any say in it at all?

[Pathwalker]

63. Oh, a tiny little thing called Michigan law. It would have to be changed.

Republicans won't allow it to be changed. I know, some have suggested the DNC should just "screw the law", but that wouldn't look so good, don't you think? The MDP and the DNC are already a laughing-stock here, so that would only add to the laughter. But, hey, everyone's welcome to come here and try to take them on - what else do they have to lose?

[PassingFair]

64. It is my understanding that we could still have a caucus.

Just because an early primary was approved by the legislature
does not mean that we can not have another or change the dates.

[madfloridian]

65. If MI is making Dean a laughing stock, then they are as shameful as FL

Sorry but that is the way I feel.

[Pathwalker]

66. Not Dean - his name is never mentioned. Just Democrats.

Why smear one when you can smear ALL of them is their attitude.

[IDemo]

38. I would equate the seating of those delegates with theft

If gambling is one of Nancy Simmons favorite past-times, it is not mine. If she was betting Florida delegates would ultimately be seated even if the state knowingly broke the rules, how can this be seen any differently from a moral standpoint than would be an e-vote theft? Will Hillary have the Florida State marching band playing "Seminole Wind" outside the national convention?

Florida and Michigan either need to re-caucus or have their total delegate numbers subtracted from 2025. Problem solved.

[ChiciB1]

54. As Far As I'm Concerned... JUST SCRATCH THEM!! Florida Just Isn't

anything like it was in the past. I moved here in 1972 and it's been down hill since then!!

[ChiciB1]

53. All I Want To Say Is That I LIVE In Florida & I Support Howard Dean!!

Many of us will NEVER help out again because of what they did to him! Not only that, they just did that "silly" District 13 had not PROBLEM WITH MACHINES, ETC, and lost 18,000 plus votes!

What a load of crap!! Democrats in Congress JUST WENT ALONG! They just wanted it over and done with, THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE VOTERS!!

[madfloridian]

57. More stuff from Florida media....interesting even if skewed.

Just reading the stuff printed here shows that little investigation is done about what really happened, and much rhetoric is spouted almost in a silly way.

Florida delegates could be critical: State gained importance by moving up primary

Here is part of the article which really just rambles.

If the young, idealistic Obama supporters see their man with a good chance, only to lose because of the super delegates, they might be disillusioned and not vote in November.

That's partly what happened in 1968, when Vice President Hubert Humphrey didn't win any primaries but was handed the nomination by party bosses. Young voters who'd been inspired by Sens. Eugene McCarthy and Robert Kennedy didn't rally to Humphrey and he narrowly lost to Richard Nixon.

State Sen. Jeremy Ring, D-Fort Lauderdale, who sponsored the bill that moved the primary, predicted his party will relent and seat the Michigan and Florida delegations. Democratic candidates have already offended party activists by not campaigning in those states, and Ring said neither Clinton nor Obama can afford to write them off.

"Whoever is the nominee has to come back to Florida in November," said Ring. "They're going to have to make it good with Florida, and the quickest, easiest way to make it good with Florida is to seat the delegation."

Please note the use of the terms "young, idealistic" when referring to Obama supporters. They used educated and elite as well when they referred to Dean supporters. Almost like there is something wrong with those qualities.

Oh, and that Jeremy Ring guy they just quoted? He "unendorsed" Obama when Obama decided to follow the rules and not campaign here. He also was the one who helped introduce and sponsor the primary bill.

Florida Dem who pushed for early primary just "unendorsed" Obama.

Hillary Rodham Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards have signed a pledge card not to campaign in Florida in the Democratic primary due to the January 29th date and Florida stands to irrelevant in the Democratic Primary.

Top Democrat's are not taking this lying down however. State Senator Jeremy Ring, a Broward County Democrat who joined Republicans in pushing for a January 29th primary date has withdrawn his endorsement of Senator Barack Obama. Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller says, "Any candidate that boycotts Florida and thinks that they will raise money here will be sadly disappointed" and top Democratic fund raiser prominent Jacksonville trial lawyer Wayne Hogan phoned Howard Dean last week to cancel a DNC fund raiser.

Way to go, Florida Dems, just keep on alienating.

[stillcool]

69. I like this part...

It's a paradox: Florida made its presidential primary important by defying party rules and voting in January, but now its delegates to a national nominating convention may only be counted if they don't matter.

.......but I don't understand this part...

But on the other side, Florida ended ex-Sen. John Edwards' candidacy and set up a Super Tuesday showdown that last week plunged Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in a delegate-by-delegate springtime slog toward possibly the first brokered convention in more than a half-century.

[madfloridian]

70. I was not sure about that part either.

Edwards was not expecting much here anyway. Not sure what that meant.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

67. If the Dem Party ever wants Florida to vote Dem again they'd better compromise

Florida has been screwed over 3 times in a row with the Prez. nomination.

[madfloridian]

68. Florida should stop with the threats. It is sounding childish now.

Enough is enough.