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I finally get what Obama is talking about.... (warning: graphic photos within)

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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:47 AM
Original message
I finally get what Obama is talking about.... (warning: graphic photos within)
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 11:16 AM by Bread and Circus
When Obama says "we need to change the thinking that got us into Iraq in the first place" he's not really just talking about the Iraq War Resolution vote. It's actually and entire mindset of foreign policy that is based on unilateralism and lack of balance regarding things like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Obama is no saint on foreign affairs. There is incredible pressure on our politicians from not readily apparent forces to support the MIC and the lack of balance in our foreign policy. However, the more I read about foreign policy of the candidates, the more I realize Obama is going to offer a more progressive path.

It's hard sometimes to draw distinctions between the two candidates on substantive issues. However, it does seem that there are some clear differences.

I first became starkly aware of this when I found out that Hillary Clinton voted against a ban on cluster bombs in civilian areas. Given Clinton's great history on child welfare, this was striking.

Here is a victim of cluster bombs (I took another photo down because people found it too horrific):



This is what a cluster bomb looks like (these could easily be confused as a toy or something attractive to a child):



Now, I have 3 children. I couldn't imagine how I would feel if my child was out playing in a field or other residential area and got injured by one of these. This is beyond my comprehension of pain.

When this bill came up (Senate amendment 4882) in 2006, Clinton voted against the ban, Obama (like most Democrats at the time) voted for the ban.

Now, many here know that I don't dig Senator Clinton. However, I've always had a quiet respect for her advocacy of children throughout her career. It boggles me that she could take such a hardline stance on something that has such cruel and devastating results.

I disagree with, yet sort of understand her IWR vote. But it was not a surprise. However, hearing of the cluster bomb stance just blew me away.

Of course, I had to dig deeper. Was this a blip on the radar screen or was this a pattern. Through DU and google I was able to come across the following articles, which in my mind are very telling and indicate a broad pattern that is concerning to me.

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4940
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4811
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4803
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4802

this is the same author's view on barack (he gives a mixed review)

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4901
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4886

Right now we have 3 salient major crises in this country: economic involution and shipping of jobs overseas, unaffordable healthcare with skyrocketing costs, and an unsustainable foreign policy that works against our own interests. This doesn't include the world crisis of Global Warming, climate change, and the impact of peak oil.

The third has direct effect on the first. It is both a problem in its own right and it affects all of us at the bank and at the kitchen table. Our standing and relationship with the world impacts us and will impact our children and our grandchildren. It is not only a bread and butter issue, it is also one of the moral issues of our times.

When I read of Clinton's pattern and position she takes on foreign policy issues I can't help but wonder how she will actually change things. She says she will "end the war in Iraq" and she may. But what about the rest? What about the big picture?

That brings me back to what Obama says about "ending the thinking that got us there in the first place". It may be a glib talking point and he may do himself injustice by not going into it in detail. But I think he's talking about ending the unilateralism and the trigger happy hawkishness that has imbalanced our place in the world and prevented us from being an honest negotiator at the table when it comes to things like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the UN, etc.

I know that despite the fundraising scandals and some of the other stuff we harp on, Clinton is deep down a decent person. Decent people don't allow children to think they are picking up a toy and being blown to bits. Unless.

Unless somehow they are being influenced. Unless somehow they are getting bad advice. Unless some how they are succumbing to the thinking that has got us all into this trouble.

That's what I think Obama is talking about.




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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Here's something he isn't talking about
Leaving 15 million Americans uninsured

Warning, graphic

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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Nice post: answering a thoughtful discussion with links by repeating
a misleading sound clip!
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. What sound clip?
Obama's health care reform plan leaves over 15 million people uninsured. I've read his plan, it doesn't cover everyone and relies on some "pie in the sky" optimism about how those people will get coverage.

Its the real world.

As for a sound clip, I don't know what you're talking about. :shrug:
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. His plan doesn't leave 15 million uninsured
Someone "projected" that 15 million would CHOOSE to remain uninsured under his plan.

But, everyone will have access to a decent insurance plan.

It's a big difference.

(but why the F--K are we talking about INSURANCE for essential health care anyway? the differences between Hillary and Barack on this issue is not nearly as big as the chasm between where we are and where we need to be, and neither moves us very far along the path.)
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. No, it creates a system
where only sick people end up enrolling in insurance plans, further burdening the health care system already at the point of collapse. It also provides no mechanism to cap or index private insurance premiums to income levels.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. How about 15 million that get their wages garnished if they don't sign up?
If you have 15 million people that apparently won't be covered under Obama's plan, can we then assume that they would be covered by a FORCED GOVERNMENT MANDATE that fines them, takes the money from their paychecks if they even have one and doesn't even let them choose what plan they want...

Both Hillary's and Edwards forced government mandate plans are bullshit that would NEVER GET PASSED. Great! Another 8 years with nothing but the confetti on the ground from political theater... :puke:

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. No one's health plan will be implemented exactly as they want it, you know.
As a Hillary supporter, you should KNOW that better than MOST.

Barack's plan sounds like it will ultimately
lead to the removal of
high-profit insurance company
rip-off.

Hillary will funnel our money TO them.

Both plans will have to pass through legislation.



Meanwhile, the war GOES ON.
KILLING AND MAIMING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.

And it COULD have been stopped.

If Hillary claims to have been DUPED, why didn't/isn't
she leading the charge for IMPEACHMENT.

It IS illegal to lie to Congress, you know.
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lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. He is not leaving 15 million uninsured
He is allowing anyone who wants to be insured at a lower cost, WITH subsidies if they cannot afford it. He is giving people a choice. If the healthcare industry gives to Clinton at the rate they have and she mandates it, the price is LOCKED in (and subject rise).
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. I'm a physician and there are many prominent physicians on record who support his health plan.
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 11:23 AM by Bread and Circus
The only different is the absence of a personal mandate to buy insurance for adults. However, the real problem is lowering costs and he has the best plan for lowering costs.

Prosense has addressed this in numerous posts and 85 prominent physicians and experts have endorsed his plan.

The only real solution is single payer coverage and none of the candidates, not even John Edwards, put that plan on the table.

The only real universal plan on the table is HR676 which is by John Conyers, and he endorses Obama.

I would love to have a long debate about health policy with you but that's not what this thread is about.

I think it would be great for you to start a serious health policy debate thread.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Apparently a physician who failed english "..their are many prominent physicians.." THERE
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. it's a typographic error. why do you have to be so petty?
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. I start health policy threads every day - here's a link to today's
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 11:49 AM by OzarkDem
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Yes you do and I participate in those threads but you will notice
when I do I talk about health care. I don't hijack the thread and talk about foreign policy.

I was the one who directed you to the Annenberg/ Kaiser foundation site that has a side by side comparison of the health plans.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I got carried away
Edited on Thu Feb-07-08 12:03 PM by OzarkDem
A couple of our poor, young, uninsured breast cancer patients died this week. Unnecessarily I might add. I'm in an unforgiving mood. I'm tired of people not acknowledging the misery we have here in our own country.

On edit: I subscribe to KFF's e newsletter, so I already had the analysis.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. You monster! You should be banned! Tombstone this person now!
Posting pictures of dead people. How dare you!

SHAME!













:eyes:
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Context is everything. You clearly still don't get it.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. yea
I do.

kindly go away.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Okay -- we'll make a pact. I'll go away when you do. Deal?
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. that fist picture is unnecessary
even if I do support Obama, there's no reason to post pictures of a dead child. I'm sure his parents would find it shocking people would be using it to bash a candidate.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. It's not candidate bashing. It's a criticism. I also posted critical reviews of Obama from the same
author.

Hiding ourselves from pictures that make us uncomfortable does not make the problem go away. My use of the picture is not gratuitous or inflammatory.

Being thoughtful and critical of policies that matter in people's lives on a catastrophic scale is not bashing.

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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
11. Actually, when he talks about going into Pakistan and doing what
it takes, this is what he means.. Bombing little children... He is listed less Progressive and more authoratorian than clinton... I'm sorry, he's not the Jesus you wish for.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. No, he's not. I posted articles critical of him as well. Would like to
please discuss the content of the articles?
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
12. someone should ask why Hillary voted this way?
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. I wish Obama would in a debate. Shame on him for not doing so imo.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
15. Man, I get the point... And that first picture was horrible! I almost wrote to demand you to remove.
Then I said to myself, my temporary and brief emotional shock is a fraction of the true responsibility we should be taking for visiting this kind of evil on the world.

And Hillary voted for cluster bombs. No getting around it. She played ball.

Take some responsibility for god's sake. Make Hillary take some responsibility.

Vote for a person who shows no sign yet of having given in to that kind of Washington tit-for-tat defense industry crap.

Vote Obama.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. it's still unseemly to post the photo
you can make a point without having to exploit the victims of war. The photo wasn't posted to protest the war, it was posted to protest a candidate for president.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Unseemly, yeah. But when you say it, it sounds like such a "genteel" word. Easy to use.
As we sit at our computers, safe in the knowledge we would never let anyone drop cluster bombs near OUR children.

"Unseemly". That's like talking politics at a wedding party or something.

What we do to the rest of the world is more like "Unforgivable".

So I am just saying that we brave keyboard warriors, who like to talk politics, should at least accept enough responsibility to be able to look at it.

And saying it is rude to the mother who will never see the picture posted on DU is simply a red herring argument.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. It's posted to protest current U.S. Foreign Policy and that is what
we are voting on.

If there's a real difference between candidates we should force ourselves to learn that difference.

Or do you want to keep talking about snubbed handshakes, spin about who won Super Tuesday, and Chris Matthews?

Why can't people tolerate seeing the result of our actions? Why can't we see what we can prevent if we were to change course?

This is about so much more than the Iraq War.

Clusterbombs are used worldwide.

And it's about so much more than Clusterbombs.

And until we have chosen a nominee, which we haven't, then we need to debate the real issues.

And there's a real substantive difference when one candidate votes against banning cluster bombs and one votes for that ban.



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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. I will take the first picture down but still... we can't hide ourselves from this
just to make ourselves feel better.

It's real, it happens, we are all responsible.
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