So if GBLT folks are voting 2 to 1 for Clinton over Obama

[ruggerson]

and we make up 6% or more of the vote, that alone could tip a couple of close races, no?

[Egnever]

1. Are they?

I hadnt seen that.

[ruggerson]

2. Yep, exit polls in CA and NY

[Egnever]

10. Interesting.

[IndieLeft]

65. That's CA & NY... She won those anyway, even without.

I'm sure you could easily flip those numbers in IL and make the same case.

All these polls... they're so funny, because after each state, there are completely new numbers; they flip so much, I'm done giving any of them a vote of confidence.

[Stand and Fight]

3. Not necessarily.

It depends on the ratio of GBLT voters to so-called straight voters and how many GBLT turn out to vote. In my most humble opinion. Here's to hoping the GBLT community votes in large numbers.

[RaleighNCDUer]

19. Why would GLBT voters back the team that they previously blessed

in 92, and were rewarded with DADT and DOMA?

Slow learners?

[mondo joe]

30. Because we don't want to support people out to"cure" us?

DOMA and DADT don't make Obama's pandering more attractive.

[gaspee]

42. And once again

57th verse, same as the first.

DOMA was a compromise to stop a constitutional amendment to ban same sex marriage. Once passed, it would be nearly impossible to overturn and it would make any laws banning marriage equality on a state level, by definition, constitutional. And while the attitude towards LGBTQ is not wonderful, it is a hell of a lot better now than it was in the 90's.

And again, DADT and everyone forgets the last part - don't pursue - was a compromise. Clinton wanted to allow gays to serve openly. Even the Dems in Congress wouldn't have let that happen. The previous policy was witchhunts and prosecution and imprisonment. DADT is a hell of a lot better than the old policy.

And repeat after me, Hillary Clinton is running for President. Bill Clinton is running for First Lady. He's looking forward to the social calendar.

[terrya]

45. We should just find a way to put this into an automatic loop or something.

Christ, some people around here are afflicted with short term memory. Quite sad, actually.

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. Gaspee does have it on an automatic loop -

making the same post over and over.

Doesn't make it true.

There is no way a gay marriage amendment to the constitution would have EVER passed at that time. This was, you'll remember, before * started shredding the constitution -- even republicans didn't like the idea of amending the constitution to restrict rights for the 1st time since the 18th amendment.

DOMA is a throwback to the misigynation laws of Jim Crow, legalizing discrimination. Now, with that as a signed law as a basis, there is MORE impetus for an amendment than there was then -- the troglodytes know they can get away with it. Next thing you know we'll be back to the 20s, with gays being arrested and jailed for the crime of being gay.

Rights CAN be reversed. Are you aware that 5% of landowners in Virgina colony in 1630 were black formerly indentured servants? A century later, their descendants were slaves.

We are not so much more enlightened today.

What DOMA did was give legal basis to the fallacy that gay marriage is somehow a threat to straight marriage. Clinton, in triangulating for the idiot vote, accepted that fallacy as fact.

And Hillary won't change it. She'll take gay votes, but she has that fucking bus warmed up and running.

[mondo joe]

47. Are GLBT issues a long time priority issue for you?

?

[1awake]

4. which close races would those be?

and either way, I don't think it would be enough in reference to whats left. But, you never know. Good Luck!

[NMMNG]

5. Since when does anybody pay attention to GLBTs?

Except when they want our money, or when they want to blame us for an election being lost, a tsunami/tornado/hurricane/soldiers dying in the Iraq war/earthquake, etc.

[ruggerson]

6. "the fierce urgency of now"

I've been awakened.

[NMMNG]

8. "Civil Rights or Civil War, Gay Rights Now!"

That may just become my new mantra. I'm sick and tired of waiting for the privileged majority to dole them out to me like doggie treats.

[hulklogan]

50. "Sit" in the back of the bus, "Stay" away from our candidate's photo ops

"Speak" only when spoken to, "Quiet" until after the election, "Roll Over" when it comes to a trans-inclusive ENDA, and "Beg" for full equality.

doggie treats = 100% greatest phrase of all time

:headbang:

[1awake]

9. I have for a long time,

Years before now even when I was a repub I did. It's damn disgusting to me how the Republicans abuse you, and the Democrat's use you.

There is no such thing as GLBT issues..there are huge civil rights issues. And because they are civil rights issues, they should trump 99 percent of all the other items we debate.

[NMMNG]

16. They are civil-rights issues

Unfortunately some don't see them that way. Thank you for your kind support. :hi:

[Bongo Prophet]

41. Exactly, 1awake. Human rights issue. For ALL of us humans.

Just ONE oppressed group leaves us ALL in injustice.

I hope someday we can free the cannabis prisoners too, for that matter.

[Meldread]

7. I've never understood the Clinton love...

...in the LGBT and black communities. It has always seem contradictory when you look at what they've actually done and accomplished for us - which amounts to mostly nothing.

Of course, my support of Obama has little to do with being gay and everything to do with being a progressive. I want to keep the Clinton's - but more importantly the DLC - away from the Democratic Party and the White House. I know where I stand with the DLC and it isn't very favorable. Keeping them out of permanent power, and furthermore ensuring that many democratic candidates can ride Obama's coattails in November to victory are my top priorities.

[ruggerson]

11. hey, we all make choices in this life

I'm not at all happy over the Gavin Newsom story. I think it shows real political cowardice. The talk doesn't match the actions.

[MagsDem]

15. Political Coward should be Obama's middle name

I swear, it's like someone hyponotized the based to believe the spin and just disregard the actual actions of the media creation that is Obama.

[ruggerson]

18. Frankly to go to a fundraiser that Willie Brown and Newsom

are throwing for you when you're running for the Senate and then to tell Brown you don't want your photograph taken with Newsom is not only cowardly, but downright offensive. What Newsom did was courageous and brave. It was a brilliant act of civil disobedience. You would think Barack would have WANTED to be identified with it.

[Solon]

12. I don't understand the Clinton love either, but Obama is a far cry from an alternative...

They are both center-right candidates at best, and both will sell gays out at the first opportunity. In fact, both have, in their own ways, already done that during their campaigns. Its just that one of them has been more "out" about it.

[Meldread]

20. That's pretty much the way I see it as well.

I don't make any apologies for Obama on his methods against our community. However, I'm not under any illusion that Hillary is any better - Bill Clinton, for example, urged Kerry to campaign in "3,000 towns across America" for the anti-gay marriage amendments in 2004. Kerry refused and when that happened Bill Clinton went public about the advise he had given. That's just one example, but of course they are making many backroom deals with the anti-gay folks just like Obama.

What I am looking toward is not just the next President. It's a mistake to believe that we are just electing a President. It's also those people the President brings along with him or her. It is the reason the conservatives are fighting McCain so hard - it is the reason they hate him so much. McCain isn't a liberal. He isn't even a moderate. They are fighting him because it's a battle for power in the Republican party and McCain, like Obama, represents the coming of a new establishment. The President for all intents and purposes is considered the leader of the party and whats more he or she has the power to bring other members of the party into power across the country.

Although individual Democratic Party members are hit or miss on LGBT issues, the Party as a whole is more favorable, and therefore by electing a President who has the potential for a lot of people to ride his coattails on election day, we ensure more Democratic offices are captured on all levels of government: local, state and national.

By electing Obama we steal away some Republican's that would otherwise vote for McCain, and we do not unite the conservative base in the way a Hillary nominee would. It gives us the ability to move forward, ensure our victory in November, and over all increase our power from coast to coast. That is not a bad thing. I am willing to overlook various offenses - that may cause us to lose a battle - but I am more focused on winning the war. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and focus on the big picture.

[Solon]

24. I just can't support either at this point...

Oh, I'll vote Democratic in the General, that's not the worry, but honestly, I never had faith in the Democratic party. I've "bitten the bullet" since I was old enough to vote to re-elect Bill Clinton in 1996. To be honest, I'm sick of this shit.

ON EDIT: The one thing I do find disturbing is the enthusiasm that people are displaying towards these candidates. To be honest, they both belong to cults of personality. I find that just fucked up.

[MagsDem]

13. LOL - Obama is not progressive

In fact, he is the least progressive on policy issues of Clinton, Edwards, and himself. On healthcare, energy, economy, and yes, even the war. But hey, pay no attention to the issues, the Media told you who to vote for and who to hate, and you rush to obey.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. He's not progressive, but then neither is Hillary, and he is not,

at least, DLC.

[Tektonik]

35. not DLC?

:rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. DLC offered. He signed on for a while, then formally withdrew his

name from their roles.

He is not DLC.

That doesn't mean he doesn't agree with them on many issues, and vote with them 80% of the time.

That's why I can't support him, either.

[Meldread]

25. I never said that he was?

:shrug:

What I said was that Hillary brings in the DLC - an anti-progressive think tank, the anti-democratic wing of the Democratic Party. You can support Hillary all that you like, but most of her friends wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. They despise the base, and that my friend, includes you. They do not even try too hide it.

The DLC is the Joe Lieberman wing of the party, and Hillary is firmly on their side and if she becomes President they are the ones who will be controlling our party. Although my political activity began only at the tail end of the Clinton Era, I remember all too well the prominence and power of the DLC, and the struggle we fought to pry them that power. We managed to get Howard Dean elected to the DNC Chairmanship against their candidate, and it is because of the DLC - that Florida and Michigan's primaries were moved up and their voters were screwed.

This primary is more than just about who becomes our nominee. That's only half of it - it's about who controls our party's future. That is the same battle they are fighting in the Republican Party. The conservative base isn't angry at McCain because he's a "liberal" - he isn't and they know he isn't. He isn't even moderate. They are fighting him because he is anti-establishment battling against the establishment - he has made a career of doing just that. That is why they hate him, and for similar reasons that is why I am against Hillary.

[mondo joe]

28. I believe Clinton cares about and respects my family. I don't believe Obama does - or

that he does ENOUGH to not sell us out for some religious bigot votes.

:shrug:

[gaspee]

44. I believe that as well

I don't think Obama just panders to bigots to get votes, I think he himself isn't very fond of us.

[LostinVA]

29. HRC has a very good GLBT record, going back to her days in Arkansas

[nonconformist]

49. Too bad, because Obama isn't progressive.

I think some people think that because he's running against Hillary that means he's this liberal progressive champion of the people... and it's just NOT TRUE.

Please, look into his policies in depth. Compare and contrast.

[Sapphocrat]

54. It's never been "love" for me.

It's called "pragmatism."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. Hey, I saw one of those Supermen in the Rio airport! -nt

[Zhade]

14. Not all of us fell for the lie that Clinton supports us.

We're not all Aunt Toms around here...

[MagsDem]

17. I can tell you one thing.... she doesn't run away from gays

the way that wussy Obama does. What kind of support are you expecting from him, because he has told you six ways from Sunday that you are getting none.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. Sure, Hillary doesn't run away from gays, as long as she needs them.

But as soon as she gets the nomination, and she needs to triangulate against McCain, she'll throw the gays under the bus - prove her 'family values' bonafides. Gotta get that independent vote, and while 6% of the country is gay, 40% of the electorate is independent.

Do the math.

[mondo joe]

31. I guess since I feel Obama has already thrown me under the bus, I have to find

that more repellent than your assurance that Hillary WILL do it.

[newmajority]

36. Hillary threw you under the bus 15 years ago

Remember, she is the one who claims Bill's term in the White House as her "experience". So that means she lied to the gay community, promised them equality and gave them discriminatory legislation. And expecting her to undo her own laws isn't really likely.

[mondo joe]

37. I disagree.

I can't force myself to agree with your interpretation rather than my own.

Obama has already shown himself very willing to disregard me and my family. And since I consider the religious bigots with their ex-gay agenda the greatest threat to gays, to myself and to my family, I am where I am.

If you don't mind my asking: are you a GLBT person? Have GLBT issues been a significant priority (like in your to 3) for any lengthy period?

[gaspee]

43. Learn some history, would you?

If you don't like the Clinton compromises, you're really not going to like the Obama compromises. I think I'm still writing in Edwards who while now friend to LGBTQ, isn't an enemy either and the most influential people in his life do support full equality under the law.

Fat lot of good it does me to vote for him though. Sigh.

And again, a little history lesson to make it easy for you --

DOMA was a compromise to stop a constitutional amendment to ban same sex marriage. Once passed, it would be nearly impossible to overturn and it would make any laws banning marriage equality on a state level, by definition, constitutional. And while the attitude towards LGBTQ is not wonderful, it is a hell of a lot better now than it was in the 90's. I do think a national constitutional ammendment would have passed back then. DOMA prevented that. DOMA is unconstitutional and the Clintons know it and know it would not stand up in under scrutiny bu a just SCOTUS. It does not pass the "full faith and credit" test.

And again, DADT and everyone forgets the last part - don't pursue - was a compromise. Clinton wanted to allow gays to serve openly. Even the Dems in Congress wouldn't have let that happen. The previous policy was witchhunts and prosecution and imprisonment. DADT is a hell of a lot better than the old policy. I think, and this is personal opinion, that we LGBTQ folks would be allowed to serve openly under Clinton.

[Neshanic]

55. Nicely said.

[TriMetFan]

27. How true.

[NMMNG]

26. I'm no fool

I don't believe that under Clinton we'll have some sort of great advance for GLBT rights. I'd love to see ENDA, the Matthew Shepard Act and same-sex marriage but given the history of politics I don't imagine it would happen. I'm much more pragmatic than to expect it.

However I do think Hillary Clinton is a far better candidate for GLBTs than is Obama. And, of course, that's not the only reason I favor her over him. I'm far from a "one-issue voter", though GLBT "issues" have a significant and far-reaching impact on my life.

[donheld]

23. That did not appear to be so last night in Denver.

I was in a caucus precinct that is very heavily made up of Gays and lesbians. I also know several other gay men who were in neighboring precincts. In these caucuses there are no secret votes. I, and my friends, witnessed not near that many gays favoring Hillary over Barack. I would say Barack had the majority in the precincts me and my friends voted in.

[RoadRage]

32. It's one small section of a very large pie..

Gay's tilt to Clinton's favor
Blacks tilt back to Obama's favor
Hispanics tilt back to Clintons favor
Men tilt back to Obama's favor
Women tilt back to Clinton's favor
Young tilt back to Obama's favor
Old tilt back to Clinton's favor....

Each of them pulls heavier in certain crowds. And right now these crowds are about 50% / 50%.

The question is more about - what percentages of voters are Gay, Hispanic, Female or Older and what percentage are Black, Male or Young in the upcoming primary states?

[mondo joe]

34. Correction: Your last question is A question. Not THE question.

There are a lot of questions. :-)

[realFedUp]

33. Asians are voting more for Clinton...at least in California

interesting data from LA Times today 71% to 25%

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Clinton was my last choice

Until Obama got down with the Exodus movement and allowed McClurkin to speak against me and mine at his official events, obviously to pander to the bigoted voters. He never apologized, never said it was a mistake. Every gay person who stands for Obama says it was a mistake, but Obama does not, and never has. In fact, he has refused to say if McClurkin's sermon was given on Obama's orders or against them.
He's never said he accepts gay people or respects us. He says he wants to 'embrace' us and frankly, I don't want his embrace. I want equality under the law. Donnie and Barack's opinion of me is zero to me. Donnie is the one who wants Barack's embrace I think. Their churchs do far more to harm black gay people than any other gay segment. They can scorn and embrace all they want and it means nothing to my life. But I don't vote for those who see me as less than themselves, ever.
This may be the first Primary in which I don't vote at all, or the first where I vote against Obama rather than for Clinton. Or rather against McClurkin and Caldwell at the table, getting special treatment for wearing a cross. My mom's racist cousin Bob had Bible verses at hand to rationalize his bigotry as well, so the religion does not mitigate the prejudice or the ignorance. In fact the religion makes it worse.

[Iceburg]

39. Yes ... it could tip the races as it did in CA where Hill got > 60% to Obama's 25%

The gay community comprises > 7% of the voting public. But the 7% does not reflect their immediate influence -- brothers, sisters,parents, grandparents, children, cousins and friends who may not be gay but sympathize strongly with the GLBT community because of their personal connection.

Obama, you have refused to have your picture taken with our MLK -- Gavin Newsome, mayor of San Francisco.
You tell us your religion dictates your policy on marriage, yet YOUR church has sanctioned same sex marriage.

But this is what really hurts, and is beyond profoundly insulting that you -- Obama, a presidential candidate hired and paraded around the country an ex-gay minister who claims to be able to cure gays with his gay-be-gone program.

Obama's message:Don't hate the gays -- embrace them, for they are sick -- but fear not we have the cure!

Imagine if during the heat of the black civil rights movement one of the white leaders/politicians offered to de-colorize your black skin. How would you feel? ...

I feel sick and worried for my GLBT community -- cause this time its not the Republicans its one of the Democratic candidates.

I don't want to be de-gayed. And I'm tired of the sermons.
I want my president to accept me just the way I am.
I want to know that my president will fight for me and fight for my rights.
I will not be de-gayed.


Going beyond cures...

I found this beautiful letter at Our Chart, one of the more popular GLBT web sites (thanks to the L-word)

open letter published at Our Chart

A Message to LGBT Americans: “I Want to be Your President”

February 4, 2008 - 12:52pm — editor
On the eve of Super Tuesday, Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton offers up a message of support for the LGBT community. Read the New York Senator's guest post below.

By Senator Hillary Clinton

As I have traveled around the country these past twelve months, what I sensed in my heart has been confirmed – America is embracing its LGBT sons and daughters with an acceptance and understanding as never before. On the campaign trail, a father of a gay son will ask about ending Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. A woman will ask why she can be discriminated against just because of who she is. Sometimes they wait furtively for the crowd to thin and then whisper their confidences in a soft voice and sometimes they stand up proudly at town meetings and want me to share my views on how I will help lead the change to assure that this country fulfills its promise to everyone.

Let me tell you what I have been telling voters across America. I am fully committed to the fair and equal treatment of LGBT Americans. For seven long years, the Bush Administration has tried to divide us - only seeing people who matter to them. It's been a government of the few, by the few, and for the few. And no community has been more invisible to this administration than the LGBT community.

I will change that. The best evidence of what I will do as President is what I have already done.

...

My father was a conservative Republican, who held very traditional views for much of his life. Yet in his last years, it was a gay couple who lived next door who provided much of the compassion and comfort he and my mother needed as he grew ill. And it was that same neighbor who held his hand as he died. If my father can move, America can move.

To each and every LGBT American, I say this. You have done so much to help this country understand your lives by simply being open and honest about who you are and living your lives with dignity. Thank you for your courage. It is time that we recognize your hard work. I know that this country is ready for changes in the law that reflect the evolution in our hearts.

America deserves a President who appeals to the best in each of us, not the worst; a President who values and respects all Americans and treats all Americans equally no matter who they are or who they love. I want to be that President. I want to be your President.

...whole letter
---------------
LUV YA HILLARY ...AND I REALLY DO MEAN IT!

[MethuenProgressive]

40. Anti-Gay evangelical bigots have more $$ than GLBT folks.

At least that's the way Obama figures it.

[NMMNG]

59. But GLBTs are all wealthy and control the media

Or that's what people like AFA and Pat Robertson say anyway. :shrug:

[Az_lefty]

51. why would they allow themselves to be fooled by another Clinton?

Bill made all kinds of promises to the GBLT community to get elected and walked away from them. Don't allow yourselves to get fooled again.

[mondo joe]

52. I believe not getting fooled is exactly what we're trying not to do.

There aremany gays who don't have your faith in 0bama.

[Sapphocrat]

53. Something else seldom mentioned:

Our families and friends. I know you know that our second-class status has major influence on our IRL allies, but I think a lot of people (conveniently) forget that "the gay bloc" is a lot bigger than just gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people.

And they do listen to us.

[Xithras]

56. You can thank Clinton for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".

After campaigning on the promise that gays and bisexuals would be able to serve openly in the military and government, Bill Clinton sucker punched us with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" in 1993. He then signed the "Defense of Marriage Act" in 1998 which prohibited the federal government from recognizing same sex marriages or civil unions, and explicitly permitted the states to IGNORE marriages by gays which aren't carried out in their state.

Hillary's campaign is heavily dependent on the argument that her experience as first lady and her co-participation with Bill in the previous Clinton presidency provide her with the qualifications to be President, but that experience cuts both ways. Gays experience with the LAST Clinton presidency demostrated quite clearly that while Clinton spoke lots of pretty words, the administrations actions were less than friendly.

[NMMNG]

58. Yeah, yeah, we've heard it repeatedly

Since you didn't read through the thread before posting this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4452810#4457550

[Xithras]

62. Oh, I read it. "Compromising" the rights of another is a tyrranical concept.

Would it be OK to discriminate against Mexicans by saying "We don't deport you if you don't look, act, or tell anyone you're Mexican?" How about if we told the Jews, "We won't ship you off to Israel if you don't tell anyone you're Jewish, don't attend temple, and don't ask anyone else about their affiliation?" Or how about the blacks? "We won't hang you from trees if you'll just learn your place and quit being uppity." COMPROMISE has been at the core of every great civil rights evil perpetrated in this nation, from the Indian Genocides to womens oppression to slavery and the withholding of black civil rights.

And yet the GLBT community is simply supposed to accept that oppression as a "compromise". Yeah, right.

As for Obama, I'll agree that his positions on most gay issues have been fuzzy, but he's already promised to repeal the DOMA and has emphatically and repeatedly said that all Americans must enjoy the same basic rights, irregardless of color, orientation, or economic status. Contrasted against the proven Clinton record of "compromising" on gay rights, that makes Obama the better candidate in my opinion.

[NMMNG]

63. They were shitty compromises to be sure.

But given the climate at the time they were better than the alternatives.


And if you think Obama is going to do us any favors with his pandering to evangelical homophobes and use of "Ex-Gay" bigots in his campaign I've got a bridge to sell you.

[goodgd_yall]

61. You may find this hard to believe but

DADT was something Bill Clinton agreed to after finding the Congress was unwilling to eliminated discrimination against gays and lesbians in the military. Clinton tried, but it didn't fly. DADT was a slight improvement in that being gay and lesbian was no longer an automatic reason to reject a recruit. That's the "Don't Ask" part.

Hillary has said it is her intention to get rid of DOMA when she becomes President.

[terrya]

64. REALLY?? I did NOT know that!!

Golly! Stop the presses!

Well, that changes everything. You see, I was living in a cave the past 16 years.

Oh...

:sarcasm:

[Stinky The Clown]

60. It seems to me it counts

GBLT is the last 'fair game' 'minority' group.

(fair game = slanderable/hateable without much fear of reprisal)