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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:36 PM
Original message
Dean supporter: "Change my mind"
There are obviously some bright minds here on DU and I've learned a lot in the past year by spending waaay to much time here. I cannot dismiss every contrary opinion as uninformed. So, those of you who support other candidates, here's your chance -- change my mind. Convince me why I should reconsider Dean in favor of your candidate.

Here are the things that will carry weight:

1) Specifics about Dean's record that should dissuade a progressive like me from supporting him.

2) If you want to argue electablility, offer something other than rehtoric or unsubstantiated assumptions.

3) Why your candidate is a better choice in a heads up comparrison. (Again, cogent opinon is fine, but no BS)

I'll be reading.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Change Your Mind?
Is there somehing wrong with the one you have?

Live long and prosper (and a Happy New Year!)
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. think for yourself....do your own reading....and I hope whoever you pick
can beat the crap out of bush
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Indeed...
Don't let enthusiasm for one candidate reach a point where it might cloud your mind. You owe it to yourself to do your homework on as many candidates as you can. That can be very hard to do objectively with an intense bias towards one candidate or against another.
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bushclipper Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. You won't change your mind... nor do you need to.
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 06:47 PM by bushclipper
We could banter back and forth all night on Dean's (or candidate X's) record and it's negatives but backers of each candidate will always justify or rationalize the point being made.

Candidate X could have an identical record as Bush and still his/her followers would somehow make it OK for him/her to have taken that action or position.

on edit: Interesting link in your signature line. The author is a Kerry supporter.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
4. Dean is the worst of all possible worlds
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 06:47 PM by billbuckhead
Dean has been endorsed 8 times by the NRA. 10 percent of Vermont voters voted for the Progressive party rather than Dean, this in one of the most liberal states in the union, one that consistantly elects a "socialist" as congressman in a statewide election. Dean is very conservative by his record but has marketed himself as very liberal. This marketing will allow him to do attract a lot of liberal support in the primary but not allow him to move to the middle enough to win the general election.

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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. LOL!
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Bush loves Jiang Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. Sanders?
Nah!

I like him, but that doesn't count...lol...Looking at the results in VT, it's obvious that even about 15% - 20% of Bush voters voted for him as Congressman.

Voting for Sanders makes one about as big of a socialist as voting for Chafee makes one a Republican.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
59. Let's do some simple math
In one of the most liberal states, 10% voted for a progressive candidate. This is a reason not to support Dean? OK!
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
61. I guess you missed this part
"cogent opinon is fine, but no BS"
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
62. Do you realize how little sense you make?
1) Dean's endorsement by the NRA is NOT a negative. It's mostly based on his understanding of gun issues (semiautomatic weapons and assault rifles are two completely different things, etc) and his desire to make states comply with current federal guidelines but let them decide on additional restrictions for themselves. This is NOT a "pro-gun" stance, it's a common-sense stance. It will also do him a world of good in states that want sensible gun laws, not mountains of restrictions.

2) You state that 10% of Vermont voters voted for the Progressive Party rather than Dean. Two issues come into play here...first, Vermont is a pretty liberal state...second, Dean's a centrist and despite governing a liberal state (where he had both the right and the extreme left as opposition) he won re-election 5 times. Dean has always "marketed" himself as a centrist. The MEDIA tried to paint him as an unelectable liberal...something that now appears glaringly untrue.

The real issue is that Dean doesn't need to appear liberal to win...he needs to be a centrist and have his policies make sense. We'll have two candidates in November 2004, Bush and whomever the Dem candidate is. The Dem will already have the Dem vote (how many liberals, regardless of how far left of Dean they stand, are going to vote for Bush?). He needs to appeal to the swing vote...the moderates. I think he has the policies to do that.
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sventvkg Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. Use your own Brain and stop being brainwashed by others
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
58. Compelling argument
n/t
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. Dean is a liar
That alone should, in a country that actually demands something from politicians, be enough not to vote for him.

A teacher of mine said it best in 11th grade.

"Without your intergrity, you have nothing."

Dean has lost his intergrity and as far as I'm concerned has nothing.

Yes, Sgt. Lash from the Minneapolis police force was a smart man and a pretty decent teacher too.

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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. Dean's sending out flyers with lies in NH.
People don't like being lied to. Dean knows he's lying and anyone who knows the truth knows he's lying. How many Democrats will be able to vote for a liar - even in November.
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Has anyone who is posting here about these "lying" flyers
actually seen one in its entirety? I would very much like to read the entire brochure and see all of the graphics contained in it in order to make an informed conclusion.

At this point, all anyone has seen to the best of my knowledge is a small graphic which does not indicate whether or not Kucinich was or was not included in any way .... and a short paragraph from a newspaper.

Can anyone help me out here?
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I've asked for this before...
but got no response.
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revcarol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Patience, patience.
Snail mail is delivering one of these brochures to a person who has a scanner. Meanwhile, I tend to believe the Kucinich campaign. Dennis wouldn't put up with lying about this issue.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I'd like to second that
where are the lies? We don't make a practice of intentionally distorting anything in this campaign. We don't need to.

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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Sounds like a cyber legend to me...
Because nobody has been able to produce one.

I wonder if snopes has anything on this.
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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I'd like to see the brochure
Maybe if I start yelling... "LIARS, LIARS!" it will show up.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. With any other candidate I'd wait to see the proof - not w/Dean anymore
He keeps on doing this sort of thing over and over again.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Yes, he does have a track record to deal with on this issue
Also, there's the fact that Kucinich does not lie. :D

And if he has made a mistake, by referencing an old flyer, I'm sure he'll own up to it very soon.

He's not one to sit and wait to be cajoled and begged to explain or reconsider his words / actions. Unlike others. }(
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
48. As one of the people who was
initially extremely angry about this, I'm working on finding out what sort of evidence there is that this came from the National Campaign or was sent with their knowledge.

Generally speaking I'm inclined to believe anything that comes from Kucinich Headquarters simply because Kucinich's integrity and honor are two character traits he and I place high value on. In this case I see nothing wrong with asking for solid evidence, and I'm trying to get it.

Having said that, I do not believe it should have been brought up in this thread. It's been discussed for at least one full evening, to the tune of over 300 posts in the originating thread. It didn't convince anyone from Dean's support here to change their minds, and it's silly to think it would do so in a new thread asking for serious comparisons.
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clarknyc Donating Member (393 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Ummm...
Could you please provide a complete copy of the flyer you're referencing? It would be a terrific help. Thanks...
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Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. Rock the Vote Debate
the question was asked, "Have you ever smoked pot?"

Dean said, "We'll all keep our hands down for that one."

The moderator ignored what Dean said and started at the other end of the line (unfortunately), asking the candidates to give their responses. By the time they got to Dean, he had seen that the candidates who had answered that yes, they had smoked pot, received great cheers and applause, and the ones who said "no" received a tepid response. So what did he say? With great pride on his face, he declared that yes, he had smoked pot.

What happened to "We'll all keep our hands down..."?

This is what I see from Dean time after time. The war, Osama, adhering to campaign fund limits, reasons for sealing his records as governor... he blurts out his answer, finds it isn't a popular one, and then revises his opinion.

Integrity, character, intelligence, compassion, experience in the world, those are the assets I expect my president to possess.

Now, if I didn't have to go make dinner now, I'd start my post explaining why I support Wes Clark for President of the United States of America. Perhaps we'll have that for dessert! :)

And it's nice to know that some people are still mulling things over, thinking over their choices, not just blindly stumbling along following the lemmings.....

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I think you read my mind or somethin
I think we need Dean and all his supporters help to defeat Bush, but I have a feeling about Clark, he is something special that only comes around once in a long while.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
40. No sense of humor
You're willing to believe Dean was telling the other candidates how to respond about pot?

On Rock the Vote???

LOL! :7

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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
56. It was a JOKE - remember them?
A little levity?

I'd really like to know what all you people who refuse to cut Dean the slightest bit of slack will do if he's the nominee. And that goes for Dean supporters who are out of control with this hatred, as well. I'm SO sick of it.

All the candidates are good men. They all make mistakes. And damn it, whoever ends up being the one is going to get my full support. And because I was never as God-awful nasty as some of you have been to the candidates, it won't be hard at all to slap a Kerry or Clark or Edwards sticker up on my car.

SHEEEEESH!!!!!!!!!!
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ryharrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
60. Dean admitted long before that debate that he had.
It was in an interview with a Philadelphia paper. We'll all keep our hands down was obviously a joke, and I rather funny one if you ask me.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. PLEASE READ I'm a progressive but I'm not going to try to change your mind
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 07:35 PM by xultar
I will say that I am shocked that you are considering a change this late in the game. Dean is a good man. I don't have anything against him personally, I just don't think he is the right person to nominate to face Busn. What has made me more stead fast in my support for General Clark are his supporters. General Clark has the best supporters in the world. They are great people the more I get to know them, the more I recognize they are more like me and we support Clark for the same reasons. I also support Clark because he wanted to send troops to Rawanda to stop the mass murder of over 100,000 Africans.
Let's get back to candidate supporters. Here's a reply PM sent to me by a fellow DUer who is also a Dean supporter. Knowing that this is the type of people who support Dean, I'll continue to support Wesley Clark...

The first PM is from me... the next indicated by the ------
Is Mr "X's" response

(My PM ....)
>Don't ever post anything trying to prove a point regarding
>something you don't know anything about. IF a Black Dean
>supporter wanted to post it...Fine. None did. We can speak
>for ourselves thank you. We don't need anyone going to get
>information for us and telling us what we should think. You
>should apologize to me and the other African Americans here @
>DU for the nonsense you posted.
>
>AGAIN, Let us decide what is important to our community
>regardless of the candidate.
>
>That's like me going to get some KKK stuff and saying See
>that's why all White people are racist. I'm smart enough to
>know that the KKK doesn't speak for all of you as you should
>know not all Black organizations speak for all blacks.
>
>Don't be ignorant and insensitive.

(------------Mr. X's Reply PM---------------------------------)
I'm an American - and you are a lackluster fuckwit.
From:
Date: Dec 21st 2003


Thank you for showing us exactly who we DON'T want voting in the next election.

You proposing to posit yourself as spokesperson for the entire Black community is by far one of the dumbest mails I've received. Can you imagine my attempting to speak for all whites? Absurd. Absurd as your inane insinuation.

I also wonder how many Blacks would respond to your implication that a Dean support site created by other Blacks was akin to a KKK site for whites. You are clearly a complete moron.

You owe all thinking people an apology for taking up valuable space, and my time. And one more thing - note that you started a feud with me. I will not only rise to the occassion but will stuff your insipid, racist posts on DU with regularity unless you apologize for your brainless mail message.
-----END PM---------------------------------------------------------

So tell me, what do you think? Do you want a Democratic nominee that brings this type of behavior out in people or do I want a nominee who brings calmer heads to the table? Do you want a nominee and presidential candiate that has more than Anger as a primary campaigning tool? If this is what Dean brings out in his supporters I must not be a Democrat and I will no longer support or vote for the Democratic Party.

If any of you have been wondering why I haven't been posting. The reply PM from MR. X is why. I've been lurking here @ DU and I've been sickened to see where things have gone. I've started hanging out somewheere else where true Democratic Ideas are expressed, discussed and people are respected.

Edited to add end to Mr. X's PM(Turra)
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. good for you!
and don't let ignorant twits stop you from posting here!
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. Terrible
that someone attacked you like that and you felt like you had to stop participating here. We miss your posts Xultar!
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. late in the game?????
excuse me but is there a primary in HF'sa state tomorrow?

the 'game' is just begining.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. r u kidding...we've been played by the RW. Dean has this thing
in the bag. He'll be the nominee. HD won't win the GE but he has the nomination sewn up. I'm not happy about it but he's got the nomination.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Stop that!
Negative vibes when Clark is building momentum! Someone needs to slap you! *Slap*

Ok, is that better?
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Much...Do it again...puhleez ;-)
:spank:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. Don't temp us
We'll send someone over there!!! :)
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. hardly
watch what happens in the next debate
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. HD knows that Bush "strengths" are weaknesses
Especially that the RNC/DLC "southern strategy" of expecting racism and chauvanism from the South only begets more racism and chauvanism.

Southerners respond when you appeal to their best side respectfully with good information, just like anyone else. That's how a hate crimes law gets passed in Texas. Everyone speaks to the South in CODE, sometimes robbing them of the ability to make good choices (ones that others find easy). Stop delivering special spins to them that cater to the bigot undercurrent in politics, and they'll sign up in droves.

The gay/lesbian movement doesn't usually make this mistake and so meets with a good deal of progress at the local level. I can think of one candidate who learned from this: Howard Dean!

Oh, and keep putting down VT as rural, backward, provincial, etc. Nothing will make the South identify with Dean more than that sort of derision.


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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. But can he make other people know that? That's the question.
He's going be competing against Bush to do it. I think that one of the biggest mistakes Dean could make is letting the Republicans choose the battles.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
21. Let's look at the major anti-war candidates:
* Worked on Republican fundraising after Bush was elected.

* A corporate lobbyist in Washington who pushed anti-privacy technology for companies like Axciom (has a vested interest in PATRIOT Act, Total Information Awareness, et al).

* Serious flip-flops on support for invading Iraq.

* Announces Democratic candidacy (as a non-Democrat) and exclaims: "I'm a Liberal!" He even got into our debates before turning Democrat, indicating his candidacy was a rushed, upper-brass manouver to split the anti-war vote.

* A neo-liberal in camoflage (a Belgian Liberal)



OK, enough about Clark. Here's what I like about Dean:

* Only major candidate to oppose the war before it started

* Got people discussing topics like "re-regulation" when no one else could, despite an echo-chamber press incredibly hostile to such ideas.

* He also got us talking about getting beyond NAFTA-esque corporate rights over the rights of people.

* No more Daschale-esque "bend over and take it" from neocons. Absurd claims are met with swift, stiff answers. This gives the media little room to spin propaganda as truth.

* Can comfortably reach out to blacks and "NASCAR dads" and accept that his actions may be misconstrued. That he is having to explain some things is proof he's willing to work at bridging between these groups. Minorities are responding positively, as are less-entrenched poor whites.

* Has a great record as Governor of Vermont, including handling a firestorm of Right-wing vitriol (anti-gay reaction to demestic partnership support), health insurance for all children, and working against an energy privatization scheme that he initiated himself.

* An ex-neoliberal, able to appreciate the better aspects of conservatism and liberalism.

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DancingBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
24. On "electability"
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 07:43 PM by DancingBear
Substantiation is a tough call here - I can preface these remarks by saying I am looking at voting patterns here, substantiated if you will by first hand experience of living and working in the area I'll discuss.

The south holds the key, as always, to national elections. In order to win on a national scale, one must carry the south, at least partially. Many electoral maps have been "drawn" on DU showing the way to 1600 w/out the south, but they are akin to holding 4/5 of a royal flush and looking to draw the ace. Sure, it happens, but I wouldn't go "all in" betting that it does.

I've lived in Virginia for a while, and spent time in North Carolina as well. When I first arrived in NC, during the normal "hey, where are you from" discussions I mentioned that I was from VA, but lived in NH for several years prior. My nickname from that day forward was "Yankee." While I made many friends there, it was clear that I was "trespassing", for lack of a better term. Nothing overt, to be sure, but there were cultural lines that were drawn.

This stigma, again for lack of a better term, shows itself in the national elections, where it has been many years since any Democrat north of VA has been able to win. Carter and Clinton head the short list of Dem victors, and we know their birthplaces. Dukakis was smart enough to include a Texan as VP, but even Lee himself wouldn't have helped that ticket :). I argue here that the VP candidate does not carry the gravitas to win the south - it must be the top guy. Why this is so I can't say, but if one uses past performance as some type of benchmark to dictate what will happen then it is a good indicator.

If one looks as politics as a business, which it is, then the logical conclusion would be to say "what type of combination gives us the best chance of competing in the south?" I answer, being a political pragmatist - a southerner at the top.

This then begs the question of voter appeal. One can, I think, make a fairly logical assumption re: the nature of southern voters, this being conservative, again predicated on voting history and patterns. While one may not like folks like Senators Breaux et al. (Miller excluded), they bring the *acceptable*Democratic message to their constituents. Is it my "10 things I'd like to see the Democratic party become?" Hardly. Does it contain two or three progressive ideas from which to build? Absolutely. If placed in the proper hands can it reach four, then five? Without a doubt. Is is better than the Republican alternative? Case closed.

Can this leader at the top of the ticket walk the line between the progressive causes that I (and you) would like, all the while maintaining the "blue dog" values (read this as being strong on defense) that will bring the south back? Yes- - if that candidate is Wesley Clark. I digress for a minute here to ask - what would constitute a progressive candidate in your estimation? Would Clark be that person? If not , why? I see no real policy differences between the two leaders, so to me it comes down to the ability to convince a (skeptical) southern voter that you meet their requirements.

Conversely, someone with the "bomb thrower" reputation (deserved or not) has to cross a very high threshold. It would be wonderful if the political process was wrapped in idealism, but it is not. Vermont is (deserved or not) perceived as a very liberal state. By association, Dean will be perceived (deserved or not) as a liberal, and (protestations to the contrary) as a "Yankee." Also, remember the "guns, god, and gays comment" from the campaign - this has already been mentioned by Harold Ford as a big miscue, thus making the threshold even higher. I would argue here, that, again based on voter history, the south will reject someone who is perceived in the abovementioned way.

Others argue that this is not so, that polling indicates Dean can and will win in the south. I counter by saying that primary voters are the dedicated fringe of the party, and that what this means is that they have been able to get their message out to these people in remarkable fashion. These "people", however, do not constitute the Nov. 4th voter - if so, then where have presidents Buchanan and Cuomo run off to?

That's my "take", and I'll stick to it. I hope it was helpful.


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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Sophistry for expecting the worst from the South
Dean's "miscue" was a huge success. He leads with Independants and leads Democrats in South Carolina.

Two sentences can cut through a lot of bull.

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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. I'll take the bait .... here's a re-post of mine from another thread...
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 07:42 PM by gore-is-my-president
My apologies to anyone who's already read it...

(My candidate: anybody who can BEAT Bush - Clark, Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt). I don't think Dean can pull it off. This election is waaay too important to throw it away on a "risky" candidate.

Just saw a prediction in the paper: Dean will win the primary BUT will only win 10 states in the General Election.

Dean is very conservative. He is very far to the right when it come to issues such as criminal justice, drugs, and just about everything except the war in Iraq and civil unions. Even in those areas – he has not always been 100%.

he's against medical marijuana,

he does not support the Kyoto Treaty,

supports NAFTA,

after the terrorist attacks he said he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties,"

he fought against having methadone clinics in Vermont (they all had to go to neighboring states),

he's against Affirmative Action,

he sided with the Republicans in Congress (against the Democrats) to support their draconian Medicare bill),

drastically increased funding for prisons and prosecutors (some reports say as much as 150%) and drastically decreased it to Criminal Defense attorneys,

he told a group of defense attorneys that "My job is to make your jobs as tough as possible,"

says that Criminal Defendants get all the breaks,

stated that he "wanted to appoint to the Vermont Supreme Court a justice who would consider "common sense more important than legal technicalities" and "quickly convict guilty criminals (he’s appointed conservative Republican judges over moderate Democratic ones).

said on at least one public occasion that the state should spend less money providing the accused with legal representation, saying that "95% of criminal defendants are guilty anyway,

is buddies with all of the energy companies in Vermont (Enron and Halliburton among them) "Nearly a fifth of the roughly $111,000 collected in its first months by Dean’s presidential PAC came from people with ties to Vermont’s electric utilities,

his tax policies in Vermont favored the wealthy at the expense of the poor (the poorest fifth of Vermont non-elderly taxpayers—paid 10% of their income in Vermont state and local taxes, one and half times the share the wealthiest Vermonters pay),

tried to turn down funding for low income mentally ill defendants,

stated that "welfare reform has been an incredibly positive force. Vermont was the first state in the nation to institute welfare reform, and we’ve had great success with it,"

said some welfare recipients "don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working" and scaled back Vermont's welfare program, reducing cash benefits and imposing strict time limits on single mothers receiving welfare assistance.

he now supports an embargo against Cuba (now that he realizes he needs the Cuban vote in Florida),

wants to increase defense spending,

Dean and the legislature made sure that snowmobiling was included as one of the permitted activities in the protected region of the Champion Land preserve in Vermont (the snowmobilers org. received hundreds of thousands of dollars every year from Vermont’s Agency of Natural Resources (ANR), all under the guise of “environmental improvement funds (they're very powerful ya know),

opposed state recognition for the Abenaki tribe,

many environmentalists from Vermont were VERY unhappy with him (not just one or two but MANY) for the way he favored corporations and developers over environmentalists

he supports the death penalty,

he has an "A" rating from the NRA,

he says he agrees with AIPAC (over the APN - a more Progressive organization),

basically thinks that protestors are criminals, disagreed when the free Mumia protestors were let off

Use of the trespass statute as a tool to silence dissent has become commonplace in Dean’s tenure in Vermont and that practice is currently before the federal courts as an unconstitutionally over-broad restriction on First Amendment rights.

has announced his support for a policy in which Washington will decide which countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons and will reserve for itself the right to forcefully disarm those who do not voluntarily disarm by U.S. dictate. In this crucial regard Dean's position is in close accordance with the Bush doctrine of coercive disarmament and preventive war.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #26
65. Too many falsehoods and misrepresentations to list in your post...
I'll start with "against medical marijuana" and "against Affirmative Action".

Dean's clearly stated that he wants to see the FDA so a study of the value of marijuana use for medical purposes and has stated that he'll base his position on that study's findings. This is hardly "against medical marijuana".

As far as the "against Affirmative Action", I'd like a cite that suggests this. Dean is decidedly pro-AA and has attacked Bush for misrepresenting AA as a "quota" system.

I take issue with many of your other statements, but it's all a matter of spin. These two immediately stood out as attacks that bear absolutely no merit.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
27. Do you want to change your mind?
LOL If your mind isn't open to change, no one is going to change it, now are they?

Even so, here is a heads up comparison; done by a DK supporter, but seems accurate to me. That's on the issues.

http://www.bobharris.com/kucinichdean.html

Another to support my candidate:

Integrity: Kucinich is consistent. And his actions support his words. Dean's words aren't consistent, and he has been blatant about his willingness to gain support based on misunderstanding or misrepresentation.

I could go on, but I'll stop here. The integrity issue makes any other comparisons moot for me.




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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks for taking the time to read some of my other analyses
I've posted some things before about the comparative records. If I can track some of that information down, I'll post it in your thread for you to review.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. Here Are Some Thoughts (WARNING: VERY LONG)
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 08:13 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
1) Dean is a moderate who is perceived to be a liberal by the general public. This results in a double-whammy for liberal Democrats, namely a candidate who is less likely to be elected in the general election, and less likely to enact the reforms you want in the event he manages to get elected.

The standard response I've seen to this is some combination of, "Dean and his supporters will single-handedly take back the language and attitude that have been pervasive throughout this country for the last few decades, and make being perceived as liberal a good thing again," and "Dean will energize the base, so we don't need those squishy moderates and conservatives anyway."

I find both arguments exceedingly unpersuasive. While it's certainly POSSIBLE that Dean and his supporters will single-handedly be able to reverse decades worth of inculcation by the whore media and the Republicans, and suddenly make being perceived as "liberal" a good thing again, I certainly don't find it all that PROBABLE. It's a long-shot, and I don't like taking chances on something as big, as important to all of us, as the upcoming election. Much more likely, I believe the Republicans will ratchet up their well-financed attack machine and fit Dean into a comfortable target box: Dean is an angry, liberal, out-of-touch governor of a small New England state (that elects Socialists to Congress, to boot). I personally believe those attacks will work, especially since the stock Dean supporter response of, "Dean won't sit and take it like Dukakis did, he'll fight back," fits neatly into the "angry, negative Democrats" stereotype that the RNC is ALREADY pushing online.

As for the "energize the base" argument, first of all, the base will most likely ALREADY be energized, since most of us view Bush as such a travesty. Second, elections are won and lost on a grand scale, you need tens of millions of votes to move the needle, and in light of the historically declining number of self-identifying Democrats and increasing number of self-identifying Independents, those votes are typically better sought from the broad middle than the shrinking left, who are already more likely to vote for the eventual Democratic nominee this year than in 2000, no matter what a few dedicated partisans might say to the contrary. Before you respond by saying, "But the base has only been shrinking because the spineless Dems in Congress haven't stood up to Bush," please check the statistics. This trend has been happening for many, many years, if not decades.

Even if Dean gets elected, however, that will mean we're electing a man who most of his well-educated supporters have conceded is, at heart, a moderate. I am a Democrat, and despite my perception here as being a moderate Democrat, I consider myself to be significantly more liberal than Howard Dean, certainly. Ideally, I don't want a candidate who is more moderate than me, I want a candidate who combines "liberal" and "electable" as well as possible.

2) Dean has no foreign policy experience whatsoever, and this is a critical flaw in our post-9/11 world. Dean's stock responses, namely that Bush didn't have any foreign policy experience either, and that Dean will assemble a crack team of advisors, are both exceedingly unsatisfying to me. First, I don't really think we need any candidate to compare himself or herself too closely to Bush in the general election, because it does the candidate a disservice, to which Dean himself has so often alluded.

Second and much more importantly, however, the two situations are readily distinguishable: before 9/11, Bill Clinton left us with the joy of being prosperous, and the sole superpower in the world. Foreign policy experience in the 2000 election was NOT a critical criterion in a candidate for that very reason. But now we are perceived to be in the midst of a dire war by most of the American public, and foreign policy is very much on their minds, especially when the Republicans use their well-financed attack machine to fit Dean into another very comfortable target box: Dean is a typical, unpatriotic Democrat who is weak on defense and foreign policy. Again, I personally believe those attacks will work, especially since the Dean response of attacking George Bush's foreign policy failures once again fits neatly into the aforementioned "angry, negative Democrats" stereotype.

Potentially much more importantly, those attacks on Dean might work, and might work very well, due to the capture of Saddam Hussein and the very real possibility that such capture will indeed make American troops in Iraq safer, since they give Bush a reasonable counter-argument. He can say that his foreign policy has NOT been a miserable failure now (even though we all know it has been), and the American public, content with the pap fed to them by the complicit mass media, will probably go along. So Bush will say, in a world that is still unsafe, do you want a proven leader who has led this country with firm and clear resolve, or do you want someone who will need training wheels on the job?

3) Dean's plan to repeal all of the Bush tax cut effectively raise taxes on the poor and the middle class, and this will go over like a lead balloon with the American public. Dean's response, that the poor and the middle class have actually been paying MORE in taxes and costs associated with service cuts after the Bush tax than before, is too complicated to sell easily, especially when the Republicans use their well-financed attack machine to fit Dean into YET ANOTHER very comfortable target box: Dean is a tax-and-spend liberal who wants to raise YOUR taxes, middle-class soccer moms and NASCAR dads who actually vote. Again, I think those attacks will work, since the truth is at its core: any way you slice it, if Dean enacts his plan, the poor and the middle-class will be paying more in federal taxes.

Dean's defense here, namely that the increase in taxes will be more than offset by restored benefits and services, MIGHT technically be true. It does NOT follow, however, that the ONLY path to restoring services is to raise taxes on the poor and the middle-class. There are many alternatives. You could raise the taxes on the wealthy EVEN MORE (my preferred solution), while keeping the tax cuts on the poor and middle class. You could cut spending in other areas that do not provide services, such as defense spending (Dean has vowed to maintain the defense budget at current levels, unlike other candidates who have vowed to cut it by as much as 15% or even 25%). Or you could continue running a deficit, a position traditionally embraced by Democrats when faced with the alternative of cutting services.

4) Obviously, YMMV greatly on this, but I have a real problem with certain elements of Dean's personality and character. Because this subject has been both hashed out so many times before here and is based so much on subjective criteria, I will decline to expand further, except to say this. IMO, Dean is more susceptible to this type of charge than any other candidate, especially when the Republicans use their well-financed attack machine to fit Dean into, you guessed it, another very comfortable target box: Dean is a flip-flopping, arrogant, egotistical, stretches-the-truth-to-the-breaking-point Democrat just like his new soul mate, Al Gore.

I will also note that on two separate occasions, with two different candidates, Dean and/or his campaign has willfully spread lies in order to stay on message. The first time is with respect to Wesley Clark. Dean's campaign decided the proper message against Clark was to paint him as a Republican. So shortly after Clark entered the race, Dean lied to everyone when he said that Clark was a "Republican until 25 days ago." I am sure Dean knew better than that, since Dean is a smart man who breathes politics, IMO. But even if you give him the benefit of the doubt, even if you think that Dean genuinely believed that statement, after Clark got in his face about it, you'd think Dean would think twice before doing it again. But just yesterday, Dean's spokesman, very shortly after insisting (rather ironically) that Dean's message was a positive one, decided to slam Clark AGAIN on this subject, saying that Clark can't "make up for a lifetime of voting Republican. We're looking forward to seeing the Nixon-Reagan-Bush-Rumsfeld-Cheney ad." Clark's "crime" that prompted this vicious attack? He dared to use stock footage of Clark and Clinton together in a complimentary fashion. Talk about a "nuclear" response for an innocuous occurrence that wasn't even targeted at Dean!

The second time is with respect to Dennis Kucinich. Dean's campaign decided a long time ago that the proper message for the entire campaign was that Dean was the only one to oppose the war, even though that's certainly not true. But Dean goes out with a TV commercial anyway, saying that very thing. Kucinich gets in Dean's face about it on national TV at a debate. Dean qualified his statement, saying he only meant the only "major" candidate, or whatever. Fine. Again, even if you give Dean the benefit of the doubt on this, after Kucinich got in his face about it, you'd think Dean would think twice before doing it again. But again, just yesterday, a glossy mailing went out, once again repeating the lie that Dean was the only one to oppose the war, or whatever. Yes, there might be absolutely tortuous convolutions of the English language that might, in the mind of some ardent Dean supporters, justify the statement and somehow magically make it not a lie. But I think most people who are paying attention, and are being honest about it, will acknowledge and agree that it was, in fact, a lie.

I don't like politicians who lie for any reason, and I especially don't like politicians who lie just to stay on message. That's no message I want to hear, personally. And it bothers me that Dean doesn't appear to have any problems with this type of behavior.

So that's my long response. I'm not going to try to sway you toward anyone else, because my biases there are obvious. I'm just telling you the issues I have with Howard Dean, honestly and openly, and hopefully to an extent that allows you to understand where I'm coming from.

DTH
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Someone replenish the oxygen!
:)
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. excellent work!
previously, i posted something about making sure your champion is the one best suited to the opponent. this post shows why dean fails that test. his strategy plays right into bush's strengths.
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DancingBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
45. Well done, DTH!

This one's a keeper
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
50. To be brief, you are exactly right. Clark is the only D candidate with
enough "nice-guy" credentials (and it doesn't matter whether they are genuine or not) to whup W. It's that simple. Dean would be, IMO, a decent Prez (compared to Chimpy, damn near anyone would) but he can not mount support from the huge mass of people we DUers ignore as we pump each other up. (oops)
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
32. I would be ecstatic to have HD as president, but I think he has no chance
to beat *. Even in a fair election. Yes, there are a couple million people who back him, and that support with few exceptions, revolves around his oppositon to the Iraq invasion. And obviously, he is right, but that is not a message that will generate sufficient popular support in an electorate that is sedated by the endless barrage of right-wing propaganda coming from Shrubco and the corporate media. Too many people are either apathetic, obtuse or just plain stupid. A lot have all three of those conditions clouding what passes for thinking these days.

Nobody in this argument will be vindicated or shamed for a year, and whichever way it turns out, the recriminations will continue.

What we're faced with right now is a game played in the other team's home stadium where they own the field, the referees, the media coverage and the concessions.

So, having blathered on this far, I have recently become convinced that Clark is the only Democrat (and I know all the caveats involved with that label) who can actually beat Shrub. I'm not a professional political consultant, but as somewhat of an Old Phart I've gotten to understand people fairly well and have learned to separate bird shit from silver dollars when stuff is falling from the sky.


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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
33. Kucinich vs. Dean: Who Represents Democratic Progress?
http://minnesotaforkucinich.com/Articles/KucinchvsDeanforProgress.pdf

This summary outlines their respective upbringings, political paths, and concludes that Kucinich better represents progressive values, as well as providing a firmer footing upon which to build the future of the Democratic Party.

I'll keep looking for some other things I've written for you to look over.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
36. Actually
you should inform yourself of the different candidate positions and come to your own conclusion.
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
38. Preaching to the "Core": Questions from a Worried "Centrist" Answered
http://minnesotaforkucinich.com/Articles/Local/PreachingtotheCore.pdf

Questions addressed:

Question: Say if Kucinich does win and both houses stay in GOP hands, just how effective will a Kucinich administration be? Would he be able to get anything done for the American people?

Question: Wouldn’t think that Democrats even if they are not backing Dean at this point would at least be happy with the many positive articles written about Dr. Dean? People say Dr. Dean has given us our focus and strength back again. Wouldn’t you say that Dr. Dean has become such a leader?

Question: Why can't we be happy? Why can't we at least champion one who is a member of our own party for helping to bring us a voice again where the mainstream media is hearing it and writing some pretty good articles on him? In the past, we have complained that no one is hearing us and that the mainstream media is not reporting anything in a positive nature concerning our party or someone within our own party. Well now they are and instead of complaining, we should be saying, YES!

Question: Do people wake up every morning thinking of new ways to trash Dr. Dean at the expense of the greater good and that is getting our country back? If this is you that I speak of then shame on you.

Question: Isn’t it true that when you have the Bush administration railing against Dean, that says something right there that they see this man as being a credible threat to him and his administration?

Question: Come on, aren’t you liberals just whiners? I hear people saying that if one does not back a certain candidate of liberal leaning that they will take their ball and go elsewhere. While we abhor Bush's statement, "You are either with us or against us" aren't some using the same tactic towards others to back a candidate not of their choosing in the name of liberalism? The party does not necessarily belong to the liberals, it belongs to the moderates and the conservative Democrats as well. I thought we were the party where all were heard?

Question: How dare Ralph Nader almost using a threatening tone to urge that our Democratic nominee must be Dennis Kucinich? Who is he to tell us Democrats who our party's candidate should be? Even if I have the utmost respect for Dennis Kucinich, how does Nader have any right to tell us anything? Especially since he said there was no difference between Gore and Bush.

Question: A candidate cannot be EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE. Even Molly Ivins sees “a winner” in Howard Dean. Why shouldn’t we follow Molly’s advice?

Question: I’m willing to pledge to support any candidate. Isn’t everyone?

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
39. John Kerry would make a FAR BETTER PRESIDENT. 4 Reasons


Thank you for your open mind. I will accept its sincerity and give you some comparisons with my Candidate, John Kerry, that are not specific to electability.

While Howard Dean is clearly the presumptive front-runner in the polls, in money and in the power of his campaign organization, I believe John Kerry is far better candidate to lead the party against George Bush.

I harbor no ill-will towards Governor Dean. However, I believe the grass-roots progressive organizations that power the Dean campaign would have a far better chance of defeating Bush and transforming the nation if they rallied around Kerry as the best President for the nation, rather that Dean, the best campaigner for the nomination.

I provide below for comment and criticism my biased, but considered head-to-head comparison between Kerry and Dean on four major dimensions: (1) personal character; (2) Iraq and National Security; (3) Progressive Record; and (4) Open Government.


Personal Character

John Kerry answered his nation’s call and enlisted to fight and lead men in a dubious war in Vietnam rather than let someone else die in his place. The nation gave him the Silver Star, Bronze Star and 3 Purple Hearts for his bravery, service and sacrifice.

John Kerry followed his tour of military duty with a life of service, working to end the War in which he fought and leading a thank-less multi-decade effort to expose corruption in U.S. foreign policy, championing the environment, and pinch-hitting in the Senate for almost every cause that affected the lives of the poor and disenfranchised.

Howard Dean heard the call to Vietnam service and produced X-rays and a letter from his Doctor. The nation gave him a bad-back deferment and 1 year vacation on the ski-slopes of Aspen.

Like George W. Bush’s Vietnam Draft-Dodge into the Texas Air National Guard when he was “young and irresponsible,” Dr. Dean’s youthful maneuver memorializes the most shameful aspect of class and privilege in America – that the moneyed class can avoid their responsibilities and gain special advantages, yet end-up being celebrated for their success in life.

Dean’s life story shows a wonderful commitment to public service, but provides little evidence of personal sacrifice

Iraq War and National Security

John Kerry voted for the Iraq war resolution because he believed it was the only way to force resolution of the Iraq tragedy by restarting the U.N. inspection process. He believed the President of the United States (and since regretted it) when he said that war would be “a last resort”. At the time of the vote, he gave a substantial, thoughtful speech on the Senate floor, Kerry said he would strongly opposed any unilateral movement to war and that he did not believe that Saddam’s threat was yet imminent. He kept is word and led opposition during the U.N. debates against Bush’s “rush to war,” inept foreign policy.

John Kerry’s military service, his two decades of participation in international diplomacy as a leader in the Senate and as a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, allows him challenge George Bush’s conduct of war and foreign policy in a post 9/11 world and prepares him to quickly re-direct U.S. policy upon being sworn into office.

Howard Dean opposed the Iraq war because he believed that it was the only way to get his campaign off the ground. Prior to a campaign strategy decision, Dean is reported as making varied and ambiguous statements on the Iraq question, many of which were similar to other Democratic candidates. Dean’s own campaign staff described this newly discovered anti-war sentiment as a political maneuver to capture the “activist” movement and make up for the fact that Dean has the same foreign policy experience as governor George W. Bush prior to his election, that is, NONE. It is widely reported that he depends entirely on advisors for policy direction.

While an eloquent and potent critic of Mr. Bush, Dean’s statements on what he would have done instead and how he will deal with Iraq as president have been, to-date vague and incoherent. Dr. Dean’s fails the test of Credibility as Commander-In-Chief of the United States Armed forces. This is a MANDATORY requirement for a campaign against a SITTING PRESIDENT and a MAJORITY PARTY at war.

Howard Dean has not yet read the book on fighting international terrorism. John Kerry wrote it.

Progressive Record

John Kerry gets the best scores from independent groups for his environmental record and for issues affecting the working poor. For thirty years Kerry has fought for labor rights, women’s rights and campaign finance reform. Kerry’s record is solid on education and social security. Despite significant political cost, Kerry has opposed capital punishment, the NRA and all the fat-cat special interest lobby groups camped out in Washington.

Few senators have maintained a record so widely regarded as above reproach. John Kerry’s legendary indifference to special interest initiatives has been widely slammed as arrogance, aloofness and neglect of his “constituents.”

Howard Dean gets his best scores from the NRA. While Dr. Dean is often characterized as an “angry liberal,” he has admitted that he is “no liberal.” Dr Dean’s current positions are difficult to pin down, but appear to be at odds with his record and certainly his reputation as governor of Vermont.

His record as governor has been characterized as “Rockefeller Republican”, and is decidedly mixed. Vermont voter say of their former governor “he never saw a welfare program he did not want to cut.” Through his tenure as governor Dean made major cuts in aid to education, retirement funds for teachers and state employees, health care, Medicaid benefits, and welfare programs earmarked for the aged, blind and disabled, all under the cloak of “fiscal responsibility”. At the same time, Dean presided over the highest tax rate in the state.

Now Howard Dean campaigns on a simplistic call for rolling back all of the tax cuts enacted since Bush took office, a position that is not only inconsistent with his priorities as governor, but contrary liberal policy that would focus on progressive taxation (increasing taxes on the rich and reducing them on the poor).

Open Government

John Kerry has fought to expose covert government actions in South-East Asian and Nicaragua, for public disclosure of campaign financing and for the freedom of Information in the Nation’s capital.

Kerry has himself been a principal target of secret investigations carried out by the Nixon Administration in the 70's when Kerry lead the anti-war effort.

Kerry’s record of pubic service as a prosecutor, in State Government and as a senator is open to public scrutiny. Kerry made his private letters and notes written during his service in Vietnam available for examination by the historian Douglas Brinkley.

Dean has fought to keep his Vermont records secret, and has now rejected Campaign fundraising and disclosure rules. He refuses to disclose whether he is abiding by state primary spending limits. About the sealing of his Gubernatorial records, Dean said, “We didn't want anything embarrassing appearing in the papers.”

The former Governor's action to lock away his own gubernatorial records for an unprecedented 10 years has made a mockery of the Democratic call for disclosure of the records from Dick Cheney’s secret meetings, and of Democratic criticism of the administration’s love of secrecy. His effort to silence critics with a “Let a judge decide” disguises the reality that is one of the least expeditious ways to provide access to his records and the most certain method of delaying access for several months.

In summary, I think that Kerry has been dangerously deminished in public opinion by the insidious attacks by the Republicans and the direct onslaught from Howard Dean. But I think he is fundamentally far more prepared to lead the country and is much less vulnerable to mortal attack from the Bush Regime than Dr. Dean.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Yep, nobody can hock their house better.
I have to hand you that one.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. Why would open-records Dean go against Mr. closed-records Bush?
Recall the treatment Gore received in 2000: A good record and *still* a total smear campaign. Feeding them with info they're not entitled to would be worse than stupid. I say, win the race first, breakup the media conglomerates second, then open the records.

Kerry knows the term "realpolitik" well. I'd just as soon feed it to him for dinner.

He and the other Dems could not lead in Congress.

Dean lead in Vermont and was willing to face a huge rightwing backlash for something he believes in.

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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
57. JK is a totally able and noble guy with zero chance of beating Shrub.
Sorry. (for all of us)
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
46. I won't knock any of our candidates.
They each bring something to the table, some more than others of course. There was an earlier thread that I posted on, concerning deciding between Kerry Dean and Clark. They are my top three choices, with some sympathy towards Kucinich and Edwards for falling out of realistic contention for the nomination. Here is a repost of my reasoning regarding those three men in particular, slightly edited.

"They are my top three also. Edwards and Kucinich have appeal too but were never really in the running for me. I am playing to win from start to finish this time. I wanted to back a candidate, who I could feel good about, who both had a real chance of winning the Democratic nomination and of beating Bush in November. Very early I toyed some with Kerry while still backing Dean. While I thought Kerry might have a broader appeal in the Fall than Dean, the passion both behind and in Dean put me in his camp. This summer I switched to Clark and have stayed firmly behind Clark ever since.

Events have moved on and I sincerely believe that only Dean and Clark now have an actual chance of winning the nomination. I concede that Kerry has a real (though outside chance) of boxing Clark out of the final two, by pulling enough support that might otherwise go to Clark from those who want "gravitas" in their candidate (I use that word as shorthand for a certain kind of experience) and combining those votes with enough loyalists who respect Kerry's lifetime of service in elected office. However I think that would only be a set up for Kerry ending up the official "also ran" in the race. Kerry's campaign did not manage to build effectively on his natural advantages. He did not catch fire, and he can not at this point start one big enough to propel him beyond Dean, especially now that Dean has some party regulars behind him also after Gore's endorsement.

The "Washington Insider" candidates, no matter what flavor of liberal/conservative they come in, have been discredited as a fighting force in this election cycle. Perception becomes reality. With Dean having built such momentum, having grass roots organizations in all of the states at play, and with a huge war chest to spend on more mass media buys, very few party regulars will step in front of his speeding train to back a Senator at this late date who couldn't even stay competitive in his neighboring state, and who had to mortgage his own house to keep his campaign afloat.

We can debate whether such perceptions, or treatment, is deserving of John Kerry, or of Dick Gephardt or even Joe Lieberman for that matter, but it is academic I believe. I think the most either of those men can muster right now is too little too late. They have had well over a year of campaigning, and they were routed by Dean's forces. Look at Kerry's and Gephardt's polling numbers after NH, or after Iowa in Gephardt's case, then look at their finances. If one of those men emerges as the perceived Dean Alternative, that will hand Dean the nomination. Pragmatism (bandwagon effect) and idealism (Deans grass roots movement) will both be on Dean's side. No contest.

That leaves Dean and Clark with a chance of actually winning the Democratic nomination. If I believed as Gore stated he does, that Dean was our best and strongest candidate, and that Democrats should close ranks early around him, I certainly would, even though Dean is not my first choice. Right now I would back Dean over Kerry because if Kerry can't win, the sooner the internal blood shedding ceases the better. Kerry has really antagonized many of Dean's supporters with his frontal attacks. If they ultimately are for nothing, better they cease sooner rather than later. I suppose Kerry's attacks on Dean might indirectly help Clark by exposing some of Dean's vulnerabilities, but they won't win Kerry the nomination. If Kerry emerges as the alternative to Dean, I will shift my support to Dean for my own pragmatic reasons, getting on with party unity heading into November.

So why Clark over Dean? First, I honestly think Clark has a better chance of beating Bush. At this point I think Dean is our second best chance of winning in November, because of the strengths he brings to the table; his fighting spirit, his ability to fire up Democrats, his fund raising, and also because Dean is the only candidate certain to have Dean's grassroots supporters fully on board for the Fall election, and bless their collective hearts, they are a potent force.

Clark however has some important similarities to Dean, as you noted above. He has grassroots support, he has outsider status, he is strongly identified against the Iraq invasion as it played out. He has excitement behind his campaign, he does get press. He is not a failed candidate who has struggled for 18 months to build a campaign only to be polling in the single digits. Clark also does well at raising money and he does have money left to spend. Clark has for the most part stayed above the intra mural brawls, to the extent any first tier candidate can while running an aggressive campaign.

Every candidate's support ultimately fractures, it can never be delivered whole to anyone. But I believe a higher percentage of Dean's supporter will be able to rally around Clark than around any of the other somewhat viable candidates. I think the opposite is true also, Dean would get more active support from Clark supporters than from the ranks of those backing other candidates. Despite significant differences, each camp can recognize and relate to the elements of insurgency present in both campaigns.

What Clark uniquely brings to the table is the capacity to unite the Democratic party behind him, because Clark has not used his campaign to attack elements of the Democratic party. Clark also brings a more natural appeal for Southern voters. Even if Clark were not to ultimately prevail in the South, Bush would have to expend real resources there opposing Clark, that Bush could otherwise shift into battlefield states like Ohio if Dean were the nominee. Clark will pull in some veteran votes also that Dean might lose, and that is a large potential constituency that Clark is well placed to tap.

Clark has experiential strengths in foreign affairs and national security that can reassure voters who would like to vote their pocketbook and go Democratic, that it is indeed safe to do so in these troubled times, since they can more easily picture Clark as Commander in Chief. Clark is very solidly Democratic, even Progressive, with his stands on domestic and social issues. Clark can pick a Gore type VP with strong ties to Capital Hill and deep expertise on legislative matters, to make that further clear.

Regarding Clark's campaign, after some serious growing pains in the first 6 weeks, it increasingly has become brilliant, which is an amazing growth curve to pull off, and highlights Clark's natural skills in this area. Give him another 3 months on the stump and you can expect to see further exponential growth in this key political arena. Lately in Town Hall meetings Clark has spoken fluidly about a range of domestic concerns in response to questions from those in attendance. Yes there is an element of risk in nominating an outsider with limited experience in the political realm. To a much lesser extent, that is actually part of Dean's appeal, his lack of national political ties and inside the beltway experience. Somewhat balancing that risk is the element of excitement and interest it would inject into the Fall race. Clark will draw lots of free media converge to himself, which will help offset Republican money. Clark, as we all know, is a very bright man, he doesn't come across as angry until he wants too, but then look out. This provides Clark with a naturally broader range of appeal than Dean has. He naturally charms most, but he intimedates when needed.

With most of the best talent that the Democratic party can assemble (which would become available to Clark if he becomes the nominee), I think he will wage a strong campaign. Anyway, that's why I'm backing Clark."



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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
51. OK then, how about this...
First of all, I have absolutely nothing against Dean. At very least, he would be a competent President, I repeat, at the very least, probably a very good one.

The reason I do not throw my vote and money to Dean is for two basic reasons. I do not think he would fare as well against George W. Bush in the general election as Kerry, and I like his political record and history a bit more.

Dean shown himself to be a superior campaigner - he's drawn tens of thousands of volunteers to promote him who also love him, many more admirers, huge endorsements, and enough campaign cash to trump any other Democrat in this race. He works hard and he speaks in blunt, direct, and honest language. He speaks English, and that's a rare thing these days in a prominent politician. It's why I didn't vote Democratic in certain passed races.

Bush, however, will be far, far from helpless in the coming election. He also has masses of people who will work for him or maybe start some blue-blood riots. Dean would have a sizeable war chest in a general election, but I can assure you, that of Bush and the GOP will be MUCH bigger. The Democrats are never going to outspend the Republicans in a Presidential election, so I don't know how much better Dean's fundrasing ability would be in a general election than the other candidates.

This is a crude way of saying it, but I think Dean's campaign is running a blitz against Bush, but Bush knows the blitz is coming and is ready for it. He will have a small army of friends and collegues in national media, including his own cable network, to push the party line hard with no let-up. The Democrats have very little of this. I don't think we can win by taking them straight on. Frankly, I think we need to turn to more subtle tactics, and I think Kerry would do that better. Kerry seems to be more aware than Dean of the stigma of being a tax raiser and someone unwilling to fight when necessary. Not of the actual being, but of the stigma that the GOP will try to pin on the Democrat at every opportunity.

The person who wins the Democratic primary, should they win the general election, will have a VERY demanding job. Not only would he have to fulfill the responsibilities of the President of the United States of America, but as the conincidental leader of the Democratic Party, he is going to have to both lead it for the next four years and get it out of its rut. All while enduring the brunt of the constant onslaught from the Republican Party and their friends.

Dean's campaign, in my opinion, has an anti-Washington and anti-Democratic establishment streak in it. You know, we've got to send them a message. He wants to reform Washington. And hey, damned if he is isn't right in about everything he says. But what I think is that Washington is the way it is for a reason, and I think it's going to take something other than political brute force to change things. Maybe I'm just biased against outsiders, but I don't see what's necessarily wrong with being a Washington insider. The experience gained can be a great asset. Finesse and a lot of precision pushing and pulling are needed to get anything done in such a beaureacracy, and I believe in Kerry's 20+ year history in Washington, he has demonstrated an ability to do that with a relative minimum of lows and an impressive amount of good work.

I have other, more boring reasons, but I'm getting tired...
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Dean handled rabid anti-gay fundies with aplomb
He can handle Bush!

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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
63. I don't know if anyone can change your mind
but this is just a few of the reasons why I personally support John Kerry.

1. His stance on the death penalty. For me it's a big issue. I'm very anti-death penalty and I have trouble voting for someone who is for it. That was my biggest issue with both Clinton and Gore.

2. His environmental record. I believe it is second to none. Although many of the candidates are pro-environment and have excellent records I just believe Kerry has a better record. His work on the ANWR issue alone is commendable.

3. His work in the senate to stop discrimination against the GLBT community. In 1996 he voted to pass a bill prohibiting job discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. In 2000 he voted on an amendment that would expand the definition of hate crimes to include gender, sexual orientation and disability. And there are other things that I can't remember off the top of my head :-)

4. I really like him, personally. I've met him twice now, and I genuinely like him. He's very personable and I believe in him. I know in my heart and in my gut that he is the right man for the job. I just don't feel that about the other candidates. I've seen several of the other candidates in person (Edwards and Dean) and I just don't get that same feeling.

Take it with a grain of salt. All the candidates have good points- but Kerry's good points just resonate with me better.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
64. for what its worth
I like Edwards because:

- he crafted a platform many months ago and it was sound enough to stand up to all the comings and goings with no need of alteration

- he understands the issues and can deftly apply his vision to any question put to him

- he always controls the conversation and steers it to being a forum to advance his vision

- he is controlled, composed and passionate and does not say things that require explination

- he has charisma, charm, empathy born of life experience for all walks of life and an innate ability to communicate to whomever he's before as a result

- he has remained above the frey and is uniquely capable of unifying the party

I find it too hard to not like this guy and believe that he will be representing us all before its all said and done.

See it all with your eyes open, your ears listening and more significantly, to thine own self be true.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. How to articulate instinct?
Edited on Wed Dec-31-03 11:37 AM by PATRICK
The articulation is something that can be torn down and argued, but the gut instinct of many, many that believe all the candidates pretty much share the same platform, is a reservation about Dean. I have reservations about the others too in lesser ways, ironically in terms of lacking what Dean's campaign does better. I certainly won't say it is as strong as with past fields. It is nigh impossible to eliminate the top four with negatives and this is a remarkable difference(maybe it's old age settling in)from past campaigns.

Moe Udall seemed the more honest and liberal, but Carter had what it took to win and I voted for him(easier to do in the later NY primary). So Dean has that same campaign strength now. So did McGovern, but McGovern was the accidental heir after RFK was shot. They had no unitive Kennedy bridge between the peaceniks, the young reformers and the party establisment. No, our candidates are squarely on their own, Dean benefitting, as out of office governors of late wisely do, with outsider courage and grass roots head start.
Our primary process has been tuned over the years so a "McGovernite" fringe insurgence by itself is not likely at all. Support has to be very broad. Dean did not(like the McGovern people brokering in 1968)write the rules of engagement. Dean's camopaign is very strong grass roots. So if you have doubts, really examine who you think is the best man and best candidate and study up on their records and strengths.

Some pretty good arguments have been posted here already. Depending perhaps on what happens in war or on the homefront, Clark could be the strongest choice to win. Kerry could still demonstrate his superior credentials with a campaign catching fire. Edwards could simply move past the tangled leaders as the ideal candidate, even as(on paper) he lacks the immense strong points of the others. Dean could simply march over candidates without the campaign strengths and dmeonstrate he is the only man in a position to really conduct a national contest for an otherwise outgunned party. So maybe we just have to take a hard look at who would be the actual best president and forget trying to second guess the other vital things. Maybe we owe that to our nation and the party- but especially the committment to back the winner as deeply as we would any of the others. We have to do both.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
66. Kick for an interesting thread
I miss your posts too, xultar! :hi:
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
67. Kick. For the morning crowd. (n/t)
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Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
69. The strength of Dean's support
Does not appear to be based on his record, or on his stand on important issues. In those areas, he is merely "good enough".

I don't have data with links or references, but it seems to me that Dean gets/got support for a combination of these three reasons:

1) He portrayed himself as a fighting Democrat, getting a quick surge of support from those who hate Bush* so very much. "I'm pissed off and I'm going to do something about it" mentality. But will he? Can he? That remains to be seen. I, for one, am not going to stake my future on it, not while I still have other choices.

2) That surge of support impressed enough people to attract more support. (This is the "inflated value" theory.) "Wow, we have a front-runner already? Better join the bandwagon, then, I suppose" or "All those people seem to think there's something about Dean. There must be something about Dean."

I can put it another way, more flowery but no less accurate. Popularity changes with the tides. It waxes and wanes. It will recede for Dean eventually: before/during the primaries, during the general election, or after the election. When the tide of popularity goes out, we'll see what his campaign is really made of. We'll see if his foundation is sand or rock. I, for one, would rather see this now while there are still viable options.

3) He does have supporters who like his record, who agree with him on issues. (You are proof of this.) And this is the foundation I'm talking about. But are there enough informed supporters? When the tide of public favor recedes, will there be enough for Dean to campaign with?

Do I have to remind you what side the media will very-subtly take?

If you believe in him, by all means, support him. If he represents you, by all means, support him. I hope everyone here feels the same way about their candidate of choice. Those who don't (and it's the perceived front-runners who are susceptible to this) are wasting their vote.

And, lol, I realize that I answered a personal question "Why shouldn't I support Dean? Why should I support someone else?" with an entreat to the masses to re-evaluate motives for supporting a "top-tier" candidate. Since I don't know what's important to you personally, I can't formulate an adequate response.

(But here's an attempt: Dean wants to get everyone insured. Kucinich wants to get everyone health care. Canada can do it. Europe can do it. Insurance is what stands in the way.)

Have a good day. (I'd better get back to work.)
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
70. THANK YOU!
Thanks everybody. That was a great thread. I read every post, start to finish. I really appreciate the thoughtful replies. I can't say that my mind has been changed, but there are certainly some things I hadn't considered before that I will keep thinking about.
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