A question for supporters of Obama from a "skeptic."

[Tyler Durden]

First, a disclaimer: The person I believe should be the candidate is not up for nomination. As for the rest, in my opinion (as I try to view all of their stars and their warts objectively), one is as good as another.

On to the question. Note, I will try and point out similar Clinton warts for the sake of fairness, and to give Obama supporters a point to jump off from. Here goes:

I have heard Obama described as "transformational." Except for his speaking ability and his stump rhetoric, I do not see this. Besides being the first Black man within striking distance of the White House, what else is "transformational" about the man? Clinton as the first woman in her position is "transformational" if that is your criteria.

His health care plan is almost identical to Clinton's, and both favor insurance companies. I can't see much difference. If it can be shown to me, I'd appreciate it. The two of them seem to be taking a ton of cash from insurance/drug interests.

I'm an atheist. The Theocracy we could still get scares the PISS out of me. Clinton is pandering, but it's really obvious: "Oh this IS the day the LORD has made!" this past Sunday maybe fooled my dogs. Maybe. If Obama KEEPS the religious alliances he has made (and OH YES, he has made them; they WILL expect payback), then that alone is almost a deal killer for me. Any contrasts?

The photo ops are getting a little much. I just saw one with Obama posing/sitting on a stage looking at the camera over his right shoulder. This couldn't have been staged better if he was sitting for a Hollywood agent's shot. Then we have Clinton, who could use a little advice so she doesn't look like a dressed-up high school teacher.

Obama speaks of "change," but gives me no details. Clinton does not speak of "change" with the same frequency or volume but infers it. She shows me things, but it's still thin. That said, it's SOMETHING. I can't name ONE POINT that I could state under oath was an Obama policy statement for his "presidency." Other than getting better SCOTUS justices and housecleaning the cabinet, and a few more "centrist" policies, I don't see any major changes these two are bringing to the table. Show me the change.

Is either one of these people going to stop the WAR? I have not heard anything other than a statement from Clinton in the distant past that she would start ending the war January 2009. Obama doesn't say much, and the one thing I heard a while back about staying as long as necessary was very disturbing. Think either one will stop the war?

Lastly, this one disturbs me most of all. The only one of all the candidates that seemed to have "Gotten" how to deal with this incarnation of the Republican Party was Edwards. To paraphrase, if you try to be nice to them, they will eat you alive. Obama talks how he is going to bring the parties together and how he will "...work will the Republicans..." which I view as swimming with the sharks. If he's serious, we are looking at Carter II, and that is not what's needed at this time. Whether Clinton wants to work with Republicans is not as obvious, but I think if that's her plan she's headed for the rocks: Republicans would rather take a job as Janitor at their country club and shine golf shoes than work with a Clinton.

There you have it. Show me, let it sink, whatever. I just had to ask.

[yellowcanine]

1. ".... so she doesn't look like a dressed-up high school teacher. " Nice.

If your goal is to promote serious discussion you are not going to get it with cheap shots like that, speaking as a former high school teacher.

[Tyler Durden]

2. Please Pardon my analogy.

In this day of "Rock Star Politicians," looking like a regular person isn't exactly good press.

[yellowcanine]

7. Well as with all stereotypes, it is not that useful and will probably only succeed in offending

someone. I don't even know what it means, as far as that goes. I have seen high school teachers who dressed as if they were going to a ball and others who dressed like slobs. For myself I usually ended up with a lot of chalk dust on my sleeves so I saw no point in wearing an expensive suit and I usually wore athletic shoes because otherwise I had a back ache from standing on tile floors all day. Hey it's work. And so is campaigning. A person deserves to be comfortable. It also implies that we should care when it comes to choosing a President. I don't. If Hillary wants to dress in pantsuits because that makes her comfortable, so be it. If Obama wants to dress in an Armani suit, so be it. It certainly is not going to influence my vote.

[Tyler Durden]

3. And I LIKE High School Teachers....

But when running against "Rock Star Barack," a little more FLASH is needed just to balance his act out.

[cd3dem]

14. another former high school teacher

if you are a high school teacher, you can't afford nice clothes... and as to Hillary... women's professional fashions are crap! A man can wear the same suit and no one would know it... a woman can't do the same...

as to the issues on education from each of their websites:


"Clinton: End the unfunded mandate known as No Child Left Behind."

"Obama will reform NCLB, which starts by funding the law."

I am with Hillary END NCLB!

[robbedvoter]

25. Another fan of school teachers who wants to end NCLB - very very much!

My kid loves learning and is deluged with tests - by an alternative school that does its best to skirt NCLB as much as possible - but can only do so much.
You can see why Ted Kennedy is not a hero to me - he hammered this atrocity with his buddy W over private quality time together...

[jwirr]

4. I just want to add a detail. I am a life long Democrat and have

received a great deal of campaign materials - usually letters - today I got a booklet from Obama and a letter from Hillary. I have never gotten a book as campaign literature before - my first thought was "God, there is money behind this guy." I am also a sad JE supporter looking for a new reason to vote for one of the other two: please give us the detailed reasons - that is one of the big reasons we loved John.

[cd3dem]

10. I have gotten two mailings from Obama

the first was a folded 4 page piece... three sides were photos mostly and his coined phrases... the third page had three issues Obama used to ask for support... one was Iraq, which means nothing to me because Obama was not in the senate at the time... one was change, ???? ...the other was his getting health insurance for 150,000 Illinois residence as a state senator... sounded more like what he sent out when he ran for U.S. Senator not a presidential bid...

I then got the booklet... to me this is a waste of money....

what has Obama done? John Edwards had way more experience than Obama... but Obama gives great speeches... so if you want a president who gives great speeches... Obama is your man...

I myself am concerned about the economy and jobs.....

[Tyler Durden]

12. I don't want any more junk mail.

That's why I haven't read Obama's web site: If I wanted to sign up for his campaign, I would do that. But If I can't READ without signing up...Well....

[Tyler Durden]

11. The "talking head" on the Obama web site was obnoxious.

If I want to tune in ANY politician, there are vids on DU a-plenty. AND I WILL NOT sign up for stuff without reading the contract. You can't get to any meat on his site without signing up. What gives?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. OK...

"I'm an atheist. The Theocracy we could still get scares the PISS out of me. Clinton is pandering, but it's really obvious: "Oh this IS the day the LORD has made!" this past Sunday maybe fooled my dogs. Maybe. If Obama KEEPS the religious alliances he has made (and OH YES, he has made them; they WILL expect payback), then that alone is almost a deal killer for me. Any contrasts?"

As an atheist, I've no idea what you're talking about. Obama appears to be pious but I've no reason to think he'd fail upholding the seperation of church and state. The suggestion that Obama's made some sort of backroom deal with churches strikes me as a bit like a paranoid conspiracy theory.

"This couldn't have been staged better if he was sitting for a Hollywood agent's shot. "

Well they are politicians. This is what they're supposed to do.

"Obama speaks of "change," but gives me no details."

What specific details would you like? Plenty on his website.

"Other than getting better SCOTUS justices and housecleaning the cabinet, and a few more "centrist" policies, I don't see any major changes these two are bringing to the table."

Obama would end the war in Iraq (can you trust Clinton? I can't.), get health care (which maybe doesn't go as far as Edwards' plan, but it's still a significant change from what we've got now), and he's a big advocate for the poor and middle class (see for instance the bankruptcy bill and credit card bill of rights.) If you look at his corporate donations vs. private low dollar donations, they're pretty much on par with Edwards.

"Obama doesn't say much, and the one thing I heard a while back about staying as long as necessary was very disturbing. Think either one will stop the war?"

Obama's always been committed to the war. He's on record as saying he'd bring the troops home as quickly as the generals say it could be done safely.

"To paraphrase, if you try to be nice to them, they will eat you alive. Obama talks how he is going to bring the parties together and how he will "...work will the Republicans..." which I view as swimming with the sharks. If he's serious, we are looking at Carter II, and that is not what's needed at this time. Whether Clinton wants to work with Republicans is not as obvious, but I think if that's her plan she's headed for the rocks: Republicans would rather take a job as Janitor at their country club and shine golf shoes than work with a Clinton."

Again, that's just a politician being a politician.

[Tyler Durden]

9. On these items:

"Obama appears to be pious but I've no reason to think he'd fail upholding the seperation of church and state. The suggestion that Obama's made some sort of backroom deal with churches strikes me as a bit like a paranoid conspiracy theory."

Nothing backroom about it: McClurkin and Caldwell. And don't tell me he hasn't EMBRACED them. Bush didn't say one word in 2000 about abortion, and all of the Religious Right knew what he was talking about.

"What specific details would you like? Plenty on his website."

If I hadn't read his website I wouldn't be asking these questions. I don't WANT to "sign up," and to have a message played at me with no way to shut it off (especially in my office) is offensive._You got somewhere I can go without getting on another list, give me a link.

"Obama's always been committed to the war. He's on record as saying he'd bring the troops home as quickly as the generals say it could be done safely."

How is this different from Clinton, or even Bush? You're not convincing me.

If he's just another politician, then what he says strikes me as naive, and I might as well go Clinton because she's at least jaded enough to be a little more realistic. "Everybody get together" doesn't even work HERE.

You aren't showing me DIFFERENCES, and you aren't showing me SPECIFICS.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Pff.

"Nothing backroom about it: McClurkin and Caldwell. And don't tell me he hasn't EMBRACED them. Bush didn't say one word in 2000 about abortion, and all of the Religious Right knew what he was talking about."

One's a grammy award winning gospel singer, the other, last I heard, hadn't anything to do with Obama's campaign.

"Bush didn't say one word in 2000 about abortion."

And Obama's had plenty to say about abortion, and he's got perfect marks for supporting women's rights. Clinton and Obama have identical policies when it comes to gay rights, miserable the both of them, but it's hypocritical to pretend one is worse than the other. If you're going to criticize Obama for McClurkin, you may as well criticize Hillary for Bill, who signed the DOMA and Don't Ask Don't Tell into law, and did far more damage to gay rights then either McClurkin or Caldwell could ever dream of.

"You got somewhere I can go without getting on another list, give me a link."

I'm not going to transcribe all his policies for you. Do you have a specific question?

"How is this different from Clinton, or even Bush?"

"If he's just another politician, then what he says strikes me as naive, and I might as well go Clinton because she's at least jaded enough to be a little more realistic."

Ah, but then you have to look at policy difference, and the ability to win.



1. Bush doesn't want to bring the troops home. He never has.

2. Clinton supported the war at the beginning, and didn't change her mind until it was unpopular. She says she'll spend the first 60 days of her campaign coming up with a plan, but nothing specific. Frankly, she sounds like Pelosi, who vaguely promised to "turn a corner" during the campaign, and completely sold out the anti-war movement.

3. Obama's always been against the war, and has pledged to bring the troops home ASAP.

The differences are profound and obvious.

"You aren't showing me DIFFERENCES, and you aren't showing me SPECIFICS."

I am, but I think you're being obtuse.

[ieoeja]

6. As an Atheist myself...

... for all his religious speech, Obama is the only one I have seen/heard confront the religious with the fact that Atheists have morals, believe in right and wrong and are good Americans.

He has done the same thing for gays, walking into the lion's den (forgive the religious alegory) and telling the religious that gays deserve the same rights, would make loving parents, etc.

I have heard Hillary make these statements too, but only when addressing people who already support these kinds of beliefs. We are not going to make social progress in this country by preaching to the liberal choir. We have to spread our message. That is Obama's campaign strategy.

Furthermore, it is Dean's campaign strategy which Clinton, et al have fought hard against. The Clinton/DLC strategy may get THEM elected which is good for them. But Reagan did not change the direction of this country by saying what would get him elected. He did it by convincing the people that his direction was the right direction.

[Tyler Durden]

8. On these items:

"... for all his religious speech, Obama is the only one I have seen/heard confront the religious with the fact that Atheists have morals, believe in right and wrong and are good Americans."

I've never heard this, and would love a link. It would make me feel better.

"He has done the same thing for gays, walking into the lion's den (forgive the religious alegory) and telling the religious that gays deserve the same rights, would make loving parents, etc."

Actually, I haven't brought that one up because I felt it would be dirty pool (may my LGBT friends forgive me). I have seen excuses, and "separate but equal" proposals from Obama. This is an EQUAL UNDER THE LAW issue for me, so I left it out as for me it is an automatic deal breaker.

"Furthermore, it is Dean's campaign strategy which Clinton, et al have fought hard against. The Clinton/DLC strategy may get THEM elected which is good for them. But Reagan did not change the direction of this country by saying what would get him elected. He did it by convincing the people that his direction was the right direction."

Reagan got elected because he had a better "Screen Test" for the ROLE as president. He was also an expert in telling people what they wanted to hear. After the Recession of '77/78 and the Iran Hostage Crisis, they would have voted for Jimmy Stewart if he got up there and told them what they wanted to hear. I was 28 and remember it like it was yesterday.

I need SPECIFICS here. That's my argument with Obama: nothing SPECIFIC.

[Levgreee]

13. Here are the specifics, organized quite well

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

read up :)

[MagsDem]

17. I have read it...

And it sounds like Hillary Clinton without the experience. And of course Obama pledges to have rethugs in his cabinent. There's all kinds of stuff in his blueprint about "working with" them as well. He's either horribly naive, or not very progressive.

[ieoeja]

19. On religion

Excerpts from a speech critical of both ignoring and using religion in politics:


" need to understand the critical role that the separation of church and state has played in preserving not only our democracy, but the robustness of our religious practice."

"Given the increasing diversity of America’s population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."

"And even if we did have only Christians within our borders, who’s Christianity would we teach in the schools? James Dobson’s, or Al Sharpton’s? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount – a passage so radical that it’s doubtful that our Defense Department would survive its application?"

"If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God’s edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one’s life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime; to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing."


http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2006/06/obama_on_faith_and_politics_an.html

[ieoeja]

21. On gay marriage

If that is a deal breaker then I guess you're not voting Democratic this year as Hillary holds almost the same position.

Actually, Obama's is substantially better than hers as he endorses the repeal of DOMA while she does not. Repealing DOMA means a gay marriage in one state would have to be honored in all other states. So he at least favors the expansion of gay marriage in this fashion.

[Coexist]

22. McClurkin concerns me, too - but not all my friends and supporters are perfect:

When I ran a volunteer board - I had people diametrically opposed to me, but they were good volunteers and though I disagreed with them, I did not force them to see things my way or hit the road.

I wish he supported marriage, he is not perfect on this issue - but certainly no worse than Clinton.

Honestly - I would feel a lot better if he would just apologize for the gaffe.

Pam's House Blend had a great discussion about this:
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=CA27E8E5EBCDB55C2193B78F5869D1C6?diaryId=4272

I don't know that it is right for any democrat to pander to homophobes - but this isn't the election that is going to change that, apparently.

Here he is, quick and dirty:

Barack Obama and Gay Rights in Illinois: Barack Obama supported gay rights during his Illinois Senate tenure. He sponsored legislation in Illinois that would ban discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Barack Obama in the United States Senate: Every two years the Human Rights Campaign, the largest national gay and lesbian organization, issues a scorecard for members of the Senate based on their sponsorship and voting on key issues of importance to gay and lesbian citizens. Barack Obama scored 89 out of 100% in the 2006 scorecard. Here's how HRC rated Barack Obama:

Barack Obama on Hate Crimes: Barack Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes laws to include crimes perpetrated because of sexual orientation and gender identity.

Employment Non-Discrimination: Barack Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and believes it should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell - Gays in the Military: Barack Obama believes we need to repeal the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy and allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military. His campaign literature says, "The key test for military service should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve."

Gay & Lesbian Adoption: Barack Obama believes gays and lesbians should have the same rights to adopt children as heterosexuals.

Barack Obama and Gay Marriage/ Civil Unions: Although Barack Obama has said that he supports civil unions, he is against gay marriage. In an interview with the Chicago Daily Tribune, Obama said, "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

Barack Obama did vote against a Federal Marriage Amendment and opposed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996.

He said he would support civil unions between gay and lesbian couples, as well as letting individual states determine if marriage between gay and lesbian couples should be legalized.

"Giving them a set of basic rights would allow them to experience their relationship and live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination," Obama said. "I think it is the right balance to strike in this society."

Sources: Chicago Daily Tribune, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force

[Bullet1987]

16. I may send this to your PM tooTyler...

1. Transformational. Key points need to be made here. Obama wants to build an entirely new coalition of Democratic voters. He essentially wants to throw out this bullshit 50+1 strategy. A mentality that has already lost us two Presidential elections. He has strong appeal amoung Independents and moderate Republicans. This is NOT a bad thing, as some on DU would have you believe (likely out of envy that their candidate can't do that). Do you want to get potentially 60% of the vote? Or 51% and hope the voting machines don't screw you two ways from Sunday? This is why Obama is transformational and not Hillary Clinton. It has nothing to do with Race or Gender. How many new voters can Clinton reel in? Not a lot because she's already a known quantity. She seems to be alienating more voters than bringing new ones in recently.

2. Religion. Point blank, if you want a candidate who even comes close to not pandering to religious people...you'll be waiting a helluva long time. Because they ALL do it. Which is what pisses me off about this fake outrage over Donnie McClurkin as if Hillary Clinton hasn't walked in hundreds of churches over her political career. Religious people have also endorsed her...it just comes off as incredibly hypocritical by some people. Obama is a Christian, and I don't believe he needs to apologize for that.

3. Change. Change in the way Obama is using it (and other politicians have picked up on) is meant to represent a different way of thinking. It's not a point-by-point bulletin...it's an emotion and intellectual idea. Obama rightfully believes that politicians have been doing too much of the same thing for so many years and that's why things have become so bad in Washington. It's the same wash, rinse, and repeat. Change is about thinking outside of the box and trying new things. Obama has even shown this is various bills he's tried to push through Congress. Look at the bill he co-sponsored with Russ Feingold before Congress took a lot of it out and gave the green light to a watered-down version of it. Obama and Feingold wanted to create a totally INDEPENDENT ethics oversight committee to make sure Congressmen and Congresswomen didn't do things they weren't supposed to. Also take a look at his positions on Transparency in government...something Hillary Clinton very RARELY even talks about. Obama wants to government to be like an open book, I doubt Clinton wants that.

[MagsDem]

18. He is the black Joe Lieberman

You can call it "transformational" but I just call it bullshit. We have enough spineless dems that won't fight for us against rethugs already.

[Coexist]

20. on religion

I like that Obama was raised without much. I am not a believer, and to me, Obama seems more like a convenient Christian, than a fervent one.


Here is the video when he says Christians don't hold a monopoly on morals.

[many a good man]

23. Liberalism NEEDS a rock star at this crucial point in time

It is quite possible that the country is at the brink of a major electoral realignment from conservative to liberal, from "private interest" to "public interest" that could last a generation or more.

Obama has charisma. Even if he does not appear to be the most progressive or the most experienced candidate, he possesses the unique ability to appeal to many people who would not vote Democratic otherwise. The nation is ready for this change, and Obama is the agent.

He has the kind of charisma that can transcend attacks from the MSM and the VRWC.

When he talks about unity and bipartisanship, I don't think he means the same tired old triangulation, capitulation, and date rape. He has the ability to speak to the constituents of the opposition and get them to make their Republican representatives begin cooperating with him. On his grounds. On our grounds.

Barack Obama is the one who can make that pendulum begin its swing back to the left.

That is what I believe "change", "transformation", and "unity" mean in the Barack Obama campaign. You can see it, too, if you put aside your cynicism for a minute.

(Of course, I could be completely wrong and he could turn out to be a complete disaster as president and we will all be either killed or converted to Islam in the next four years.)

[Prefer]

24. You forgot Barack's commitment to MORE H1B visas

because americans "aren't smart enough" to do the job. And they talk about a skill shortage, but the wages are falling. Is that how economics works?