TPM Josh Marshal: NO WAY (Clinton camp needs to be shut down on this new gambit re MI/FL delegates)

[Pirate Smile]

No Way

The Clinton camp really needs to be shut down on this new gambit of theirs to muscle the party and the other candidates into seating the Michigan and Florida delegate slates.

And let me be very clear about what I mean. It was very debatable decision whether the DNC should have punished Florida and Michigan with the loss of their delegates slates because they broke the rules the party had set down for scheduling their primaries. By 'debatable' I don't mean it was right or wrong, only that it was a pretty draconian move and I know there was a lot of discussion about whether or not it was the right thing to do.

But that was the decision -- one that each of the candidates at least implicitly agreed to. Indeed, each agreed not to campaign in either of these states, again implicitly agreeing to the decision not to seat the delegates.

The Clinton camp is just pushing to seat these delegates now because the contingencies of the moment mean that the decision would favor Hillary. She was the only one whose name was on the ballot in Michigan, thus insuring her win. She has a wide lead in every Florida poll taken this month.

Even that was a matter of her basically pulling a fast one on the other candidates by not taking her name off the ballot. Each of the major candidates signed a pledge not to "campaign or participate" in any primary or caucus prior to Feb. 5th except for Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina. The other major candidates adopted what seems like the only reasonable interpretation of the pledge (see text here) and pulled their names from the ballot.

But then Hillary didn't, thus in essence guaranteeing her win in Michigan.

The Clinton campaign said taking their name off the ballot wasn't required by the pledge. But what can "participate" mean over and above "campaigning" other than formally being a candidate in the race?

In any case, by gaming the process Clinton already insured her win in Michigan, though it seemed only for a symbolic victory, not real delegates.

But all these particulars are secondary to the principle, which is that you don't change the rules in midstream to favor one candidate or another. This is no more than a replay, with different factual particulars, of the attempt to outlaw the at-large caucuses in Nevada after the Culinary Union endorsement made it appear they would help Barack Obama.

Perhaps there's some detail of this question that I'm not aware of. And if there is I'll revise my opinion accordingly. But based on what I know now this is pretty clear-cut.

Hillary can muscle for every advantage she wants. Good for her. She's a fighter. But everyone else should see this for what it is and say No.

--Josh Marshall

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/064801.php

[Thrill]

1. Again They'll do anything

[flpoljunkie]

18. When Hillary said she was "in it to win it," she evidently meant at any cost--just like the Bushes.

[mod mom]

75. it sure appears someone slipped them rove's playbook. I don't get where the media is saying

that it's causing whites to pull for Clinton. The whites I know are all appalled at these GOP tactics. You don't have to believe the Clintons are racist to understand why they are using this-they put winning ahead of any concept of civility and integrity. Is this really who we want to lead our country? I find it despicable!

[sniffa]

2. She gets more loathsome every day.

[Stephanie]

25. You said it.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

3. Who cares what some Obama bot blogger says?

:shrug:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. I am really getting tired of your ****

perhaps you should disclose that you are on her payroll - nothing else would explain the crap that you have been posting and the attacks you've made on people here.

If anyone says something factual about your girl, you are right there. without shame, facts, rational argument or cites.

yo may be proud, but I wonder if you have any shame.

[sniffa]

27. Who are you responding to?

:shrug:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

39. the non-stop anti- edwards, anti-obama, hillarian

who finds the time and a way to go after anyone who disagrees.

[sniffa]

40. Thank you for narrowing it down.

:rofl:

[rodeodance]

9. well, every Obama supporter will---post over me and below me with the mantra:

she will do anything. not Original at all.

[cali]

13. bwahahahaha

sorry, dumpling, Josh Marshall is not an "Obamabot" and he's not jus some blogger. Get ready for some blowback you darling little Hellbot.

[Teaser]

14. you are the world's best parody

Josh Marshall hasn't taken sides in this. In fact, he probably leans to Hilary.

But don't let that stop you...

[flpoljunkie]

17. Josh Marshall is neither an Obama, Clinton or Edwards supporter!

[jefferson_dem]

19. You really are clueless, mate.

Stop spreading so much bullshit and educate yourself.

[JackORoses]

20. more people than would ever care what you say

[Kahuna]

26. Thou shalt not speaketh cross against JMM. For it reveals..

YOUR lack of maturity and judgement. JMM is one of the most if not THE MOST reliable blogger in the entire blogosphere.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

31. nobody knows who that is or cares

[Stephanie]

34. proof of your ignorance

Finish high school and then get back to us.

[Cooley Hurd]

59. Nah, he's just the guy who broke the US Attorney Firing scandal...

...that's all.:eyes:

[calmblueocean]

42. Man, you've been posting about a thousand threads an hour for days! I thought you WERE a robot!

I don't know how you do it.

[HamdenRice]

69. "a thousand threads an hour for days"

The irony meter just flipped all the way to one side and broke. Can DU's biggest spammer and Hillary-bot be surprised at anyone's one day post count?

[tammywammy]

51. You're so cute

I love it went you spout crap you obviously no nothing about.

:loveya: Adding you to my buddy list.

[sniffa]

57. Again who is it?

:shrug:

[burythehatchet]

60. dude, just log out and check the thread

[tammywammy]

64. My *new* favorite poster

Who's a Proud Amurkin. :P

[chascarrillo]

70. Josh Marshall is NOT an "Obama bot blogger"

I'm rather surprised that you seem unfamiliar with Talking Points Memo. One of the largest political blogs out there. And, if I remember correctly, he's a Clinton supporter.

[stillrockin]

81. When I read your comment,

I heard (in my head) a sound-drop from The Stephanie Miller Show: "You are an idiot."

[Leo 9]

82. Thank you for continuing to win people over to Obama with every post you make.

Keep up the good work!




http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

[babylonsister]

4. Clear as a bell to me, too. She'll say or do anything; very cutthroat. nt

[lapfog_1]

5. Pretty sure that it was planned this way...

else why say you are going along with the DNC decision but leave your name on the ballot in Michigan?

After all, you can win those delegations and THEN try to get them into the convention.

Rules were made for losers (Clinton's new motto).

[arewenotdemo]

10. Apparently no one told Hillary it was illegal.

So it must be OK.

:sarcasm:

She and Bill are throwing African-Americans and progressives under the Clinton bus.

And when it comes to Iraq, McCain will demolish her. She may be good for another 50 years or so (Korea), but he's in for a millenium.

[MonkeyFunk]

58. There was no agreement

and no obligation to remove their names from the Michigan ballot.

Some of the candidates did so on their own, in attempt to pander to Iowa and New Hampshire voters.

But Kucinich, Dodd and Biden remained on the ballot - and Kucinich even campaigned there, in violation of the agreement.

[Jennifer C]

63. No, he didn't.

Biden removed his name from the Michigan ballot, along with Edwards, Obama, and Richardson.

You must be confusing him with Gravel.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

6. WAAAHHHH! So just let Obama come out and say he doen't want Florida votes to count

[rodeodance]

11. ha ha--oh my--that would really put the kinker on this situation.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

21. LOL nt

[cali]

16. only a fool or a knave

would suggest this comes from Obama. Or both.

[AngryAmish]

83. Florida votes should not count

THe people of Florida have repeatedly proven themselves unworthy of the franchise.

[robbedvoter]

7. Yeah, who cares about voters? Party squabbles is all...Idiots all.

[The_Casual_Observer]

12. It really doesn't matter anyway. None of it matters. Obama is going

to lose all the big states anyway. This whole thing was for nothing.

[Alizaryn]

15. Incredible.

Their stunts have pushed me WAY beyond not supporting her for president.

[Stephanie]

28. No kidding.

She's unbelievable. When I saw her after the debate claiming, "I never mentioned Reagan," I couldn't believe my eyes. Now this. She's sunk to a new low.

[liberalnurse]

22. Yea know, the Beltway is much more ruthless than any

Democratic Primary Run. One has to go get into the strategic "fight mode" to make any progress with the Pentagon, FBI, CIA etc.....every waking moment. If you blink, they will cut and have you bleeding.

This article is an excellent example of a political team familiar with the needed savvy to lead such an arrogant group of "Leading Americans in Power".

You got to go to the edge and lean over a bit. Yea, ya do and the Clinton Team knows this too.

[DEMorthem]

24. she WILL do anything to win

an that scares the shit out of me! she is "politics as usual" " same old washington bullshit " is that REALLY what we want? not me! I would rather have ANOTHER republican in 08 than HILLERY

[Stephanie]

29. Sure, because the DC status quo has been working so well for the country.

Haven't had enough cynical bullshit yet? Vote Clinton for more of the same.

[Stephanie]

23. Watch her - she'll litigate it.

She'll litigate her way to the nomination, mark my words. She's learned every lesson Rove had to offer.

[KoKo]

30. Josh is young and he thought Clinton was a "good President" and

because he's the President he knew through his "Teenage Aware" life...he would support going back to Clintonimics. I understand that...but his "growing up experience" under Clinton...is just as obfuscating to HIS view of THIS election as the folks who support Obama because they thought Reagan was a Happy Fellow...and while they might not have agreed with all his policies..they thought he was better than Carter and the "60's Hippie Crowd."

Josh is a good guy...but his view is clouded by Clinton...because it was what he knew in his "OWN LIFE EXPERIENCE!" ...even with his degree in HISTORY from Brown University.

Josh is a good guy...but very young......

[johnnydrama]

33. i'm curious

why did she come out now for this, instead of next month, or even a month before the convention?

There will be no decision on seating the delegates before the FL vote, so what's the point of bringing this up
now in the first place?

Even if you look it as being a good move by her, why now?

[nashville_brook]

32. i live in Florida, and i'm beyond angry that our own party disenfranchised us -- NOW, it's not just

disenfranchisment, but they are going to effectively STEAL our delegates and give them to Hillary. NO ONE has campaigned here. there has been NO "democratic" process. of course the candidate with the biggest name recognition is going to win a popular vote: THAT'S NOT DEMOCRATIC IN THE LEAST.

as much as it pains me to say this, Michigan and Florida delegates need to sit this one out. it's better that we have NO VOICE than to have a phony, manipulated voice.

[Stephanie]

35. It's delegate theft, you're exactly right.

As Howard Wolfson says ad nauseum, it's BEYOND THE PALE.

[cooolandrew]

68. YES even without this story what are they thinking demotivating voters in these states.

[AX10]

36. Josh Marshall has discredited himself...

he has shown that he is a Hillary hater and pro-Obama.

[KoKo]

37. Actually Josh has much support for Clintons. He posted on his site...he liked Bill

because he didn't think he did a bad job. Josh is in his early 30's. Clinton was a good President to him.

He posted it on his Blog.

[2rth2pwr]

38. This is ridiculous! Disenfranchise voters in 2 whole states?

What happened to "count every vote"?

[joshcryer]

52. It's about "the rules." Some people here thing the "rules" subervet fairness.

The system we have in place is not fair by any stretch of the imagination.

[suston96]

41. Sorry, Josh Marshall is FOS. He knows nothing about voting rights.

It's not about the candidates. It's about the voters. As long as there is a nominating process based on direct selection of delegates to a political party convention then voting rights must be equal for all.

It doesn't matter what the national or state Democratic leaders decided. It's what the rank and file Democrats decide and that decision on election day must be honored - equally across the board.

[Bread and Circus]

43. Josh Marshall is a RIGHT WING REPUKE!!!!

c'mon Hillbots....we know you want to say it....

:eyes:

[FrenchieCat]

44. :)

:rofl:

[KoKo]

55. Josh is NOT a RW Repuke...he has a "support" for Bill...cause he was President when he grew up...

Nothing wrong with that...

[calmblueocean]

45. Hillary's going to have a full-on Democratic mutiny if she's not more careful

I am trying real hard to keep myself open to supporting her, but bogus tactics like this make me physically ill at the thought she might actually connive her way to the presidency. Would it kill her to show a little integrity?

[Stephanie]

46. Where would she find it? Lack of integrity is her Achilles heel.

There's no spine there, no core beliefs, no principles. It's all about winning and nothing else matters. It's all about HILLARY and no one else matters.

[Cha]

47. There's fighters and there's Thugs and hilary

is the latter.

[hayu_lol]

48. Yap, yap, yap, yap...Y'all know that Hillary was not the only Dem candidate...

to keep her name on the Michigan ballot. I sure don't see anyone badmouthing Dennis for leaving his...or even for his actively campaigning in Michigan.

It really is a shame when state party leaders decide to abrogate an agreement made by all the state parties just to gain some extra campaign dollars by going first.

As for Florida, it really doesn't matter since they have no idea about how to hold an honest election--in Florida, anything goes.

But to single out Hillary for the acts of state Party officials is beyond the pale.

[Cha]

49. hilary's a thug so don't try your red herrings

on me.

[joshcryer]

50. They should be seated. If you don't want them seated, then you don't want their votes to count.

The system we have in place is flawed. It allows two-three states to decide the victor, and snubs the rest.

[Evergreen Emerald]

53. why is this loathsome?

What the hell is with such vitriolic hate? Good God, what the hell is wrong with everyone.

[Barack_America]

54. Hillary 2008: Whatever it Takes. n/t

[Bodhi BloodWave]

61. You missed the two words at the end of her slogan 'And Beyond' n/t

[NoFederales]

56. I was surprised to find JMM writing this commentary. He says it well. nt

NoFederales

[smalll]

62. "Do anything, say anything." "In it to win it." Hmmmm....

As a Democrat, don't I WANT someone like that, who has an instinct for the jugular, when the Democrats have (at least officially) LOST 7 out of the last 10 presidential elections? Like, only won 3?)

In the words of Hillary's favorite candidate in 1964 --- "Why not victory?"
Everyone seems to be so much up on "change" this year. How about winning? Wouldn't that be a nice change? Hmmm?

[MBS]

71. "Victory" using these low-life tactics and lies is not victory

The Clintons are doing huge damage to the Democratic Party, and to themselves.

[cooolandrew]

65. This is getting crazy. Even bush is starting to look democratici every vote counts in democracy...

... Sorry I'm backing Cynthia if it's not Edwards or Obama,I can't back an election fraud candidate, it's how we got here. Besisdes if Repubs get it they get the blame for economic decline.

[cooolandrew]

66. Anyone in florida who believes in the constitution vote uncommitted.

[cooolandrew]

67. Email this about I think they are doing it on the quiet.

[onehandle]

72. Florida and Michigan should be represented at the convention.

Hillary aside, they were always going to work this out.

[UALRBSofL]

73. I Live In Florida And Know The Facts

I don't think it's fair to Hillary to run artucles about her that distort the facts. If people are concerned with the truth they should fact-check before believing everything they read by a reporter or a blogger.

The fact is the DNC along with the Democrat candidates signed a contract to disallow delegates as well as no campaigning or running ads in florida.

Barack has been running campaign ads in florida for the past 2 weeks on CNN every 3 or 4 hours and this was disallowed. When you run a campaign ad on CNN you are able to block any state from receiving the ad, which he chose not to do in florida. Barack is circumventing the DNC contract by running these ads.

On the ballots in florida every democrat candidate is listed and we can still vote for any of them just that our vote doesn't count. Also, because Barack has been running these ads in florida people know who he is. When the original post states Hillary leads 2 to 1 over Barack that is simply not true, she leads at the most by 5 to 7 %. I'm a bit surprised that a Barack supporter would even admit Hillary leads Barack by a margin of 2 to 1 in florida because if that were the case it is a good indicator of Hillary's popularity.

That being said, Hillary has asked, not directed the DNC to let floridians voice be heard which actually means let the votes in florida count. Is this breaking any rules, no it isn't.

To get to the meat of my post. Hillary asking the DNC to allow florida votes count, is this pandering for delegats, sure it is. Barack running ads in florida circumventing the DNC contract, is this pandering, sure it is.

Of the 3 candidates, John has been the only candidate not involved in any issues in florida that I am aware of and I applaud him for that.

I am a Hillary supporter but I have to give credit to John for not pandering in florida.

[drm604]

84. Here's a clue.

It's "Democratic Candidate", not "Democrat Candidate". You'll be more believable it you stay away from the right-wing slurs. :eyes:

[WyldRogue]

74. It's a sad state to see the Dems...

...so divided (thanx to Rovian tactics by ALL parties ) that now voters are gonna vote based NOT on RACE instead of experience. So far from what I gather, Obama WILL get the majority of the black vote because of why else?? He's now the BLACK candidate. Ignore the fact that he's been wishy washy concerning critical votes or the fact he's only been in the Senate for 3 years..... Oprah sure did a good job promoting the 'agenda' huh?

And I am willing to bet that more black voters will vote THIS time around. If they had voted before, maybe the Shrub would not have had the office twice... shame.

Well people, you vote and you get what you deserve if he indeed turns out to be the closet Republican I and quite a few other suspect he really is.

[truedelphi]

76. Well can you blame Obama if he wins?

I didn't like Reagan but our political system helped usher him in.

And if this country had campaign finance reform the field wouldn't have narrowed so soon.

Dodd, Richardson, Biden, all gone, and it is not even February 1st.

By february 6th we will know who our candidate is - and perhaps so many will be tired on both sides of the two who are "Ordained and anointed" that the notion of having the primaries over so soon will backfire.

[Allyoop]

77. DNC

The DNC is the only arm of the Democratic Party that I have supported since 2004. I don't contribute to the DCCC or DSCC because I can't stand the manipulation by the leaders. I support Howard Dean and all he has done to establish the 50 State campaign.

If the DNC lets Billary get by with this temper tantrum and get her way, I'm through with the Democratic Party! It's just as corrupt and corporate as the Repubs. We The People don't exist - only the folks with big bucks and deep pockets count.

[UALRBSofL]

78. I have an absentee ballot of florida

Looking at my absentee ballot I see Barack, Hillary and even Edwards is on it. What does this mean for tuesday? People in the democrat party can vote for any of these candidates. How will this be an advantage for Hillary? Well, perhaps the Obama supporters are in fear that Florida supports Hillary? I think not. Considering Barack is the only candidate running campaign ads and breaking the DNC contract should be a red flag that he is cheating the DNC and what type of ethics does this exhibit to people. Has Hillary broken any contract with the DNC by suggesting the florida voters be heard, no, she hasn't. That said, the mere fact she suggested it is enough to proclaim her enemy of the state but the fact Barack actually broke the DNC contract for no campaign ads in florida is perfectly OK? Seems to me it's what I call double standards.

[Upfront]

79. Seating Delegates

Not to worry. Howard Dean will not buy that stuff. He has guts enough and will back the DNC.

[UALRBSofL]

80. How I Feel ! ! !

Well, I feel cheated that my vote doesn't count. In a free democracy where voting is encouraged, I feel the DNC has let the people of Florida down.

I think my main issue in this campaign cycle is health care for all americans. It just sickens me that so many people don't have health care or are underinsured. It just takes one major illness to send a family to the poor house. I think because I'd like to vote so my voice can be heard for healthcare for all people I don't think it was fair for the DNC to disallow floridians a vote. Just my RANT ! ! !

[Radical Activist]

85. It makes Clinton look desperate and disingenuous.

Most people will see through it.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

86. The Clintons would destroy the Democratic Party in the process

of seeking the nomination. Their scorched-earth tactics aren't just against Edwards and Obama, they're against our party itself!