Obama praises Reagan but considers Paul Wellstone a "gadfly"? Involved in anti-populist Rubin group?

[jackson_dem]

-snip-

Obama's deference to these boundaries was hammered home to me when our discussion touched on the late Senator Paul Wellstone. Obama said the progressive champion was "magnificent." He also gently but dismissively labeled Wellstone as merely a "gadfly," in a tone laced with contempt for the senator who, for instance, almost single-handedly prevented passage of the bankruptcy bill for years over the objections of both parties. This clarified Obama's support for the Hamilton Project, an organization formed by Citigroup chair Robert Rubin and other Wall Street Democrats to fight back against growing populist outrage within the party. And I understood why Beltway publications and think tanks have heaped praise on Obama and want him to run for President. It's because he has shown a rare ability to mix charisma and deference to the establishment.

-snip-

Another area of retreat and equivocation for Obama is his role in party politics. He had previously said he didn't "want to be the kingmaker," because "it's never been sort of a role that I've aspired to in politics." Yet Obama forcefully intervened in a suburban Chicago Congressional primary on behalf of Iraq veteran Tammy Duckworth, the candidate handpicked by Democratic power brokers, against grassroots contender Christine Cegelis, who in 2004 garnered an astonishing 44 percent against GOP incumbent Henry Hyde and who almost beat Duckworth. Wasn't this the very kingmaking role he'd said he didn't want to be a part of? Obama said only, "There are going to be strategic questions about who do I think is best equipped to win the general elections." One senior Congressional aide said, "Obama showed himself to be the pure political hack he is. Here you have a guy whose own success was predicated on winning primaries against party-backed candidates now using his enormous political capital to go to bat for the same party machines he says he doesn't want to be a tool of."

Although Obama said such high-profile primary endorsements were rare, a similar controversy arose a few weeks later. Just as Ned Lamont's antiwar primary campaign against prowar Connecticut Senator Joe Lieberman was gaining momentum, Obama traveled to the state to endorse Lieberman. Like the Duckworth endorsement, Obama's move was timed to derail an insurgent, grassroots candidate. To progressives this may seem surprising, given Obama's progressive image. But remember, according to the New York Times it is Lieberman--one of the most conservative, prowar Democrats in Washington--who is "Obama's mentor in the Senate as part of a program in which freshman senators are paired with incumbents."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060626/sirota/3

[saracat]

1. Very telling article. Hmmm.

[Mass]

2. Sirota, the man who likes Huckabee, AND" Obama said the progressive champion was "magnificent."

Sirota could not even be bothered to give us a quote.

[AtomicKitten]

3. GADFLY: One that acts as a provocative stimulus.

And that was Paul Wellstone and then some, and we could use more gadflies like him. RIP :(

[Hawkeye-X]

4. if the story is true

Then Obama rises a little bit higher on my list - but still a *very distant* 2nd. I miss Paul.

On edit: read the definition of gadfly after I posted.

[Mass]

8. Read the definition of gadfly. Nothing dismissive in it, particularly when added to magnificent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly_(social)

[joshcryer]

74. Holy shit the spin is amazing. AMAZING! WOW.

[never_get_over_it]

76. This is hardly a compliment

Gadfly is not complimentary - maybe you should check a dictionary instead of wikipedia

Obama said the progressive champion was "magnificent." He also gently but dismissively labeled Wellstone as merely a "gadfly," in a tone laced with contempt for the senator

what part of laced with contempt seems like a compliment

Barack Obama is no Paul Wellstone...and he will not get my vote in the primary

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. Gadfly definition:

Definitions of gadfly on the Web:

* pest: a persistently annoying person
* any of various large flies that annoy livestock
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* "Gadfly" is a term for people who upset the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions, or attempt to stimulate innovation by proving an irritant.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly (social)

* Gadfly is a RDBMS written in Python.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly (database)

* The gadfly appears in Greek mythology as a tormenter to Io, the heifer maiden. Zeus lusts after Io and eventually turns her into a white heifer to hide her from his jealous wife, Hera. Hera is not fooled, and demands Io as a gift from Zeus. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly (mythology)

[Recursion]

52. I think it's in Plato's "Phaedo", but maybe it's the "Apology"

It's what Plato called Socrates. It's a compliment, as you point out.

[Tellurian]

5. Everything you ever wanted to know about Obama but were afraid to ask...ask Lieberman..

"But remember, according to the New York Times it is Lieberman--one of the most conservative, prowar Democrats in Washington--who is "Obama's mentor in the Senate as part of a program in which freshman senators are paired with incumbents."

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jackson_dem]

16. Which has nothing to do with the article

Obama intervened when Lieberman was teetering on the edge. He showed his cards.

[Mass]

21. So did Boxer and Clinton... And at this point Liebeman was not teetering.

Most people did not think Lamont would pass the convention. Rewrite history is a habit with some people.

[jackson_dem]

25. Rewrite history? When was the article written? You obviously didn't read it

[cali]

6. how pathetic that Sirota's such a dishonest little hack

I never liked him. Bernie must be deeply ashamed of him. What a flat out liar. And lover of Huckabee. Obama's comments on
Wellstone couldn't have been more admiring, and he never remotely praised Reagan. I rate Sirota about as highly as that other well known progressive: Roseanne Barr.

[springhill]

101. You are famous for calling people names with whom you diagree..................

you have a problem.

[jpgray]

7. Again, a vague statement with a possible pejorative/positive intention

Gadfly can be used to mean a provocative challenger of the status quo, or an irritating contrary nuisance.

[AtomicKitten]

14. And what is a MAGNIFICENT gadfly then which is what Obama actually said?

Still confused?

[jpgray]

17. You'll think me a magnificent bastard, but you still can't claim to divine intent from that

[AtomicKitten]

24. No, I just think you are trying to ram the possibility he meant something different down throats.

When it is clear from the preceding adjective precisely what he meant.

[jackson_dem]

20. When did he say that? You are making up a quote out of whole cloth to defend Obama

[AtomicKitten]

27. You need to examine your ammunition before you lob it -- That is what he said.

[jpgray]

34. It isn't. The Nation's interview clearly separates the two.

First praise, then dismissal, according to the author of the article.

[Mass]

37. Not an article, an OPINION COLUMN. Can you make the difference.

[jpgray]

40. Did you read the original interview from 2006? There's no whole "quote" to be found.

[AtomicKitten]

46. And do you always set your watch by opinion pieces?

I tend to base my analysis on actual quotes rather than third party interpretations. But that's me.

Sirota has already been spanked for this, for not reporting Obama's entire quote and his faulty analysis based on that omission.

[Recursion]

55. It's only negative if you've never bothered to pick up a copy of Plato

Then again, that's probably 90% of America today, sadly

[jpgray]

72. Your condescension is unwarranted. Its usage history goes rather beyond Plato

From the OED, you will find positive and pejorative uses in the figurative meaning:

2. fig. One who irritates, torments, or worries another. Also (after L. {oe}strus), an irresistible impulse to some course of action.

1649 G. DANIEL Trinarch., Hen. IV, cccxlvii, Rather then have the Gad-flyes of an ill-Disposed Army on their shoulders feed.

1807-8 W. IRVING Salmag. (1824) 243 It is our misfortune to be frequently pestered..by certain critical gad-flies.

1864 LOWELL Fireside Trav. 314 Bitten with the Anglo-Saxon gadfly that drives us all to disenchant artifice.

[SoFlaJet]

9. I frigging hate

these Hillary Clinton workers here at DU-they are ruining this once great site. I haven't seen behavior like this since Karl Rove ran Bush the 2nd time

[Cameron27]

29. The OP is supporting John Edwards,

and I'll take issue with your Hillary Clinton workers BS. That's the second time that someone's insinuated that today. Clinton's supporters are no worse than any other group here.

[MagickMuffin]

30. I'm supporting Edwards, and I'm not impressed by Obama

Obama is not a progressive by any means of the term.

I've been researching ALL our candidates and Obama is short on my list of his progressiveness.

I think everyone here is doing a disservice to their candidates by ALL this juvenile sparring.

I wish Duers would just post about their candidates and why they support them. From some of the crap I've seen posted on DU, I would be ashamed if their candidates came here and saw how their supporters are behaving.

I think another factor is there are a lot of first time voters who think the politics of destruction is a good thing. I don't agree. It makes them look petty and in some cases very uninformed.

[readmoreoften]

80. Paranoid much? The majority of this site supports Edwards. /nt

[Rydz777]

10. Interesting article. My preferences: (1st) Edwards, (2nd) Hillary,

and (3rd) Obama.

[LittleClarkie]

11. I heard he also called him a homosapien!

Gadfly: a good thing that sounds bad when you first hear the word.

[jpgray]

12. There are pejorative uses of the word. It depends on intent

[jackson_dem]

15. No mention of Wellstone ins his book, although Reagan is praised in it

[Mass]

18. Obama said the progressive champion was "magnificent."

I do not think there is any question what the intent was.

This said, it is once again the distortion by another candidate supporter of what Obama said. It is becoming a pattern that is very bothering. Apparently, Clinton and Edwards's supporters have more and more difficulties supporting their candidate without lying.

[jpgray]

23. To his fans, I'm sure the search for intent usually ends with such positive results

[Mass]

31. Sure, coming from a guy who said that Huckabee was good, (Sirota), I am going to listen

something he does not even have a quote for....

[never_get_over_it]

77. You've said Sirota has said Huckabee was good

several times - mind providing a link or some proof - I happen to like David Sirota a lot and please and I would love this Sirota thinks Huckabee is good with some context...

oh I'll go check the googles....

[LittleClarkie]

36. Is there another meaning to that word?

Maybe it's a bad thing, and we've missed it, what with the new lingo kids use these days and all.

[Mass]

39. What gets me is that they cannot be bothered to produce a quote, these days.

It just shows how some people are desperate.

[Recursion]

60. Why do you hate Socrates? nt

[redqueen]

19. *sigh*

[Occam Bandage]

26. He called Wellstone "magnificent." Sirota is a hack.

[jpgray]

28. To those who presuppose the most beneficent intent for all Obama's statements

I'm sure it'd be easy to get very confused as to how "gadfly" could possibly be read as pejorative.

[Occam Bandage]

32. While this may come as a shock, "could possibly" and "was" are not the same thing.

[Mass]

33. Give me a quote and I will tell you. If not, I just will consider that for what it is. Hacks doing

their dirty job. I will not believe them, whether they attack Obama, Clinton, or Edwards. A question of basic honesty.

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. OMG...he endorsed LIEBERMAN? He called the greatest Progressive, EVER, a GADFLY?

Damn. Here I thought his play nice with repukes rhetoric was bad. That's nothing compared to this. How shameful. I also didn't know he was involved in getting rid of Cegelis! SHE would have won the freakin' seat! Now I know who my 2nd choice candidate is. This makes me sick.

[Occam Bandage]

41. He called Wellstone "magnificent." And he endorsed Lamont in the general. Plus,

Lamont endorsed Obama recently, so it seems those two are cool by each other.

[jpgray]

43. To anyone who hadn't decided on utter fealty, that would be evidence of equivocation

Not pure goodness and honesty. Why attempt to squash Lamont in the primary? Why do it?

[Occam Bandage]

47. Ask Lamont how he feels about it.

[jpgray]

57. Of course. It's not equivocation? It's all consistent in your mind?

Are you being serious?

[Occam Bandage]

62. I disagree with his primary endorsement of Lieberman. However, your

respect for Mr. Lamont cannot be that great if you are willing to completely disregard his opinion in the affair.

[jpgray]

73. Lamont's opinion of Obama makes his support of Lieberman both consistent and positive?

How?

[Occam Bandage]

78. You could start by examining what I have actually said, as opposed to what you

might have wished to construe me as saying.

[jpgray]

81. I asked "Why endorse Lieberman at all?"

You said "Ask Lamont how he feels about it."

How does that even answer the question? It's ridiculous. It would be like using a wounded Iraq war vet who supports Hillary to explain away her IWR vote: "This guy was hurt by her vote, yet supports her! Ask -him- how he feels about it!" Those who were hurt by a mistake can still like the person who made the mistake. This doesn't mean it isn't a mistake. It's great that Lamont is big enough not to be petty over the Lieberman support, but how does that make the choice to support Lieberman any less wrong? What a ridiculous argument.

[OzarkDem]

50. Do you have a link?

If true, it shows once again Obama's knack for "shapeshifting", saying whatever he thinks any given crowd wants to hear.

[Mass]

53. Read the OP!!!!! It is in it....

[Occam Bandage]

66. What was Obama's full quote? And what was the question that led to the answer?

[Mass]

68. I know, but even with Sirota very partial quotes,only a hack can conclude he is belittling Wellstone

Seems there is a lot of hacks on DU, that is all.

[Occam Bandage]

70. Right. Sirota gives a one-word "quote," and everyone goes OMG.

[OzarkDem]

84. The hell you say

OMG, now you're expecting me to actually read the articles linked in the OP????? OMFG!!!

Just kidding. Thanks for the heads up. That's what happens when I try to post and work at the same time.

[in_cog_ni_to]

59. It's in the OP. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

65. No quote, no context, no question, nothing. Just "I heard Obama say gadfly."

Sirota's a hack.

[in_cog_ni_to]

51. He also called him a Gadfly and endorsed Lieberman in the Primary when it was OBVIOUS who THE PEOPLE

wanted as their Senator.

He also gently but dismissively labeled Wellstone as merely a "gadfly," in a tone laced with contempt for the senator who, for instance, almost single-handedly prevented passage of the bankruptcy bill for years over the objections of both parties.

[Occam Bandage]

58. Since Sirota refuses to give the whole quote or context, we have no idea what he said.

[ordinaryaveragegirl]

38. Tells me where Obama stands...

When he supports someone like LIEberman (who betrayed his own party and stood with Chimp).

Wellstone's legacy easily puts Obama to shame. Wellstone was for change before it became a catch phrase, and was about that change coming from the people - he was a true visionary. What a great inspiration he was to so many!

“When too many Americans don't vote or participate, some see apathy and despair. I see disappointment and even outrage. And I believe that out of this frustration can come hope and action.” -Paul Wellstone, in a 1998 speech.

[Occam Bandage]

42. There's no quote, and no reference. Sirota is a hack.

[jpgray]

45. The reference is the interview Sirota did with Obama in 2006. Have you read it?

[Mass]

49. And you, before you accuse!! Incredible.

[Occam Bandage]

54. I haven't seen the full interview anywhere; just Sirota claiming Obama used the word "gadfly."

No context, no quote = hack.

[Recursion]

56. That's probably why he praised Wellstone so highly

I think you may not understand what "gadfly" means.

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. Here...take your pick:

Definitions of gadfly on the Web:

* pest: a persistently annoying person
* any of various large flies that annoy livestock
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* "Gadfly" is a term for people who upset the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions, or attempt to stimulate innovation by proving an irritant.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly (social)

* Gadfly is a RDBMS written in Python.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly (database)

* The gadfly appears in Greek mythology as a tormenter to Io, the heifer maiden. Zeus lusts after Io and eventually turns her into a white heifer to hide her from his jealous wife, Hera. Hera is not fooled, and demands Io as a gift from Zeus. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly (mythology)

[Recursion]

90. Show me an example of someone calling someone else a gadfly

and meaning it as anything other than a compliment

[OzarkDem]

44. Obama is in the wrong party

He needs to give in to his inner Republican and switch.

[Recursion]

48. Someone needs to learn the history of the term "gadfly"

It's only insulting if you consider it insulting to be called a latter-day Socrates.

[jpgray]

61. Its usage has been pejorative in many cases.

It can be a provocative challenger of the status quo, an irritating nuisance, or somewhere in between.

[Recursion]

64. As I said before, show me a perjorative use of it

I've never seen one.

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. Here:

Definitions of gadfly on the Web:

* pest: a persistently annoying person
* any of various large flies that annoy livestock
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* "Gadfly" is a term for people who upset the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions, or attempt to stimulate innovation by proving an irritant.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly (social)

* Gadfly is a RDBMS written in Python.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly (database)

* The gadfly appears in Greek mythology as a tormenter to Io, the heifer maiden. Zeus lusts after Io and eventually turns her into a white heifer to hide her from his jealous wife, Hera. Hera is not fooled, and demands Io as a gift from Zeus. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly (mythology)

[jpgray]

75. I've provided one above. Your unitary focus on Plato shows how dangerous a little learning can be

[LuckyLib]

63. Obama needs to read everything ever spoken or written by Paul Wellstone. This is a man

who actually got what government should be.

[Occam Bandage]

67. Maybe you've seen Obama's quote in which he says Wellstone's a gadfly.

[ProSense]

79. Paul Wellstone was the antithesis of the Clintons...

Paul Wellstone was the antithesis of the Clintons...

[EFerrari]

82. I mostly agree but how is backing Duckworth like blocking Lamont?

:wtf:

[Recursion]

93. Wasn't DU very pro-Duckworth?

I seem to recall that

[EFerrari]

96. That's what I remember, too. n/t

[peacetalksforall]

83. I thought I wasn't in favor of Obama. Anyone who so vaguely speaks

of Wellstone by using a term that is not a household word, that has too many meanings, that infers a flighty darter in one part of it, who is uppity by using it - and leaves you wondering what the hell he meant .... IS - NOT the right candidate for me. Combine that with the sainthood he confers on Reagan. Combine that with always having to explain himself. Combine that with his hugging the corporations. Means, my initial gut feeling of restraint was correct.

I don't think Dems are that fortunate right now. The two top contenders - have
War ... Corporations .... Center and leaning towards the love of the right on their side.

Edwards looks better by the second and minute.

Paul Wellstone IS a hero of mine.
He wasn't magnificent.
He was dedicated, determined, serious, loving, energetic, charismatic, honest, ferocious on our behalf, unafraid, and one of the best representatives a citizen could ask for.

I am feeling sick.

[johnnydrama]

85. so

you're saying Wellstone wasn't magnificent? How dare you.

See how this works?

[peacetalksforall]

86. Not really. Magnificent is vague and short-cut jargo . I defined what he was to me in simple words

that didn't require a dictionary and a debate for meaning.

'Magnificent' is a fancier word than 'awesome', but could be understood to carry the same meaning or the same impressiveness.

I didn't include any reference to Sirolas' words about 'contempt' - so I didn't play that game.

[johnnydrama]

88. BUT

I took one sentence you said. Eliminated all other comments, and made it look like you said he wasn't magnificent.

And you can't really complain, because i'm quoting you accurately.

Just trying to prove a point about context.

[peacetalksforall]

92. OK. I get it. I took a shortcut. Dangerous. You're right.

[smalll]

94. Um, I'm a Hillarite, but --

1) What makes you say "gadfly" is "not a household word?" What does that mean? How is gadfly such a complicated and obscure piece of vocabulary in your mind?

2) But then your vocabulary is pretty shaky yourself: (should be "that IMPLIES a flighty darter" NOT "that INFERS.")

3) And you find him "uppity" for using "gadfly?" Uppity? Let me ask you, do you feel that anyone who got over 300 on the verbal SAT is "not black enough?"

[peacetalksforall]

95. I honor your opinions and can see how you would voice them ...

1/3. the meaning of gadfly and how Obama meant it was debated within this thread. It is not a word from the street or in most homes.

My back went up when I read 'gadfly'. I ignored the rest of the phrase that came from Sirota about contempt because there was no film or full context for me to look at or read.

In my experience - I have seen gadfly used in relation to a person who is always stirring things. I've observed the stereotype (for me) written into some theatrical and comedic scripts. I didn't take his use of it in postive terms. I haven't seen many positive examples of it. If I have a neighbor who is going around organizing some cooperation or activity to improve the safety of children in the neighborhood, I don't say - Thanks, Phil, you are such a good gadfly. In other words, I didn't know how to take it.

I told myself that here is another thing that he would have to explain if it was important enough for someone to ask him. I doubt that it is, but I get the impression he won't be making references to Paul Wellstone in his speeches.

In this world with all the legal and political, real and rampant crime and in our self assigned task to find out what our leaders are doing about it - we run out of time - so we take this and that and form opinions - associations. I've made an association for me.


I made an unfortunate association regarding Obama with that reporting.
I wish I had not read the thread. I would rather have not heard it.

But, I will hesitate bringing up something like this because some people don't seem to understand what Paul Wellstone meant to some people and not being sure what someone means when they are in public service is something that I can/should avoid when it's more important to hear what the person thinks about ending the 'war'.

[no name no slogan]

87. I knew Paul Wellstone when he was a college professor

I first met him when he was the MN state chair of the Jackson '88 presidential campaign in 1987, and I was a college student.

I worked with him on a state legislative race in 1988, where he helped us replace a far-right do-nothing politician with a considerate, hard-working man who represented his district.

I was a Wellstone delegate to the MN DFL state convention in 1990, and was a precinct captain for him at the 1990 caucuses, as well.

Although I admittedly didn't know him well, I feel safe in saying that he would NOT approve of anybody using his name to attack ANY fellow Democrat, even those he may not agree with 100%.

[IndianaJones]

89. this guy never ceases to amaze me. nt.

[Metric System]

91. THIS annoys me:

"I frigging hate these Hillary Clinton workers here at DU"

Hillary supporters do exist, you know. And no we don't need to be paid. Do you really think only Obama and Edwards have passionate supporters?!?

[Seabiscuit]

97. Supports a group that fights back against growing populist outrage within the Demo. party???

This article is not looking too good for Obama because he really presents himself as a progressive. Obama is truly a puzzle of contradictions.

[ClericJohnPreston]

98. Not really......

He is exactly as he appears to be when channeling Reagan or bashing the Progressive wing of the party, by demanding Centrism, and by bashing long-time activists in the Party.....a LIEberman Repub-lite.

[Seabiscuit]

106. You got that, right!

[rodeodance]

99. "Obama traveled to the state to endorse Lieberman."---well, this is new to me.

[jackson_dem]

105. It is true

[rodeodance]

100. "a rare ability to mix charisma and deference to the establishment" --glitter, vagueness,

charm---yup, I give them that.

[MollieBradford]

102. kick

[rodeodance]

103. Obama praises Joe L: -

passed to me and I pass to you:

http://tinyurl.com/27tqea

HARTFORD, ......

Obama, an Illinois Democrat who is considered a rising star in the party, was the keynote speaker at the annual Jefferson Jackson Bailey Dinner. Lieberman, Connecticut’s junior senator, is under fire from some liberal Democrats for his support of the Iraq War. He was key in booking Obama, who routinely receives more than 200 speaking invitations each week.

Some at Thursday’s dinner said that while they were pleased with Lieberman’s success in bringing Obama to Connecticut, they still consider Lieberman uncomfortably tolerant of the Bush administration. Obama wasted little time getting to that point, calling it the “elephant in the room” but praising Lieberman’s intellect, character and qualifications.

“The fact of the matter is, I know some in the party have differences with Joe. I’m going to go ahead and say it,” Obama told the 1,700-plus party members who gathered in a ballroom at the Connecticut Convention Center for the $175-per-head fundraiser.

“I am absolutely certain Connecticut is going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the U.S. Senate so he can continue to serve on our behalf,” he said.

[yurbud]

104. great. our top two are both DLC corporate tools. why aren't more backing less tooly Edwards?