Here's the deal with the McClurkin issue

[ProSense]

Bill Clinton reportedly told John Kerry to throw gays under the bus during 2004 election. What is he telling Hillary, and is she listening?

Kerry, whose record is unmatched, never did.

Hope all the candidates are listening, but no need to keep beating a dead horse.

[TwilightZone]

1. Ah, the "I know you are, but what am I?" response.

Yes, using poor behavior to justify poor behavior is so convincing.

[ProSense]

3. Again, your ability to grasp a point...missing! n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

10. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?

[TwilightZone]

36. Sharper than you, Mr. Obtuse.

Never met a fact you couldn't mangle.

[beachmom]

60. That's bunk. Obama has NO RECORD of throwing gays under the bus like the Clintons do.

Defense of Marriage Act and Don't Ask Don't Tell. Those were real and had real effects on gays in this country. McClurkin only has the effect of the Clinton boosters bringing him up to distract people from the Clintons' known record.

[TankLV]

2. your disgusting EXCUSE making and DEFENDING THE INDEFINSIBLE is

is shameful...

but go ahead - we expect as much from you...

Let us all know when he "reaches-out" to the KKK or JUST ANY ONE other white supremicist group...then we'll talk...

fucking unbelievable...

[ProSense]

5. "Let us all know when he "reaches-out" to the KKK..." Outrage like that is shameful.

You want to continue your rage and hate, be my guest.

[beachmom]

59. Fine then go vote for the Clintons who have a PROVEN RECORD of throwing gays under the bus

as soon as the going got even a little tough.

Do people no longer remember Defense of Marriage Act or Don't Ask Don't Tell?

[jlake]

4. Kerry rocks....Obama still needs to apologize or fess up.....

[Lucinda]

6. You know what the really REAL deal with the McClurkin issue is?

You have NO RIGHT to tell anyone else what to think about it.
And it makes you look like an asshat for bullying people about it.
And thats the "real deal" about it.

[ruggerson]

7. Rock on

:hug:

[ProSense]

8. "You have NO RIGHT to tell anyone else what to think about it." Do you? n/t

[Maven]

14. Thank you.

What a bullshit OP.

[ProSense]

18. Not really! n/t

[TwilightZone]

42. Agreed.

It seems that people keep confusing opinions with facts.

[racaulk]

53. Thank you!

[ProSense]

9. Beating a dead horse! n/t

[cboy4]

11. Why do you think it's beating a dead horse? Because

it continues to give Obama a black eye, and has clearly cost him votes in a tight election?

Is that why you don't like hearing about it?

[ProSense]

13. "Is that why you don't like hearing about it?"

Beating a dead horse leads to arguments that become strained to the point of being irrational. That point was passed weeks ago.

[cboy4]

16. I think it's a fair debate, considering I've not

necessarily read anything, per se, from either side that I've considered irrational.

But I can understand why Obama supporters would like the conversation to be dropped, because it has negatively affected his campaign in a tight race.

People have undoubtedly shifted to Hillary and Edwards.

In fact, I know some people.

[LittleClarkie]

12. I love you darling, but I'm not sure what one has to do with the other

What does John Kerry and the Clintons have to do with McClurkin and Obama? Ya lost me.

[ProSense]

17. Nothing!

The act of throwing gays under a bus is the focus. Clinton is not now being lambasted by the gay community for having a horrific record. By all accounts most people have moved beyond that. The McClurkin incident was not handled well, but he is not an official in the Obama campaign and has no control over policy. I made the point about beating a dead horse, which is really one about perspective and moving on.


Oh, :hi:

[hulklogan]

20. Believe me, I have perspective and I've moved on

Moved on from supporting Obama in any way until November, and even then with my nose firmly held.

[ProSense]

25. That's fine. This was not a post about a decision to support Obama or not. n/t

[hulklogan]

69. Your OP is so cryptic, nobody understands what it's really about

other than a new way to say "The Clintons did it too!!!" and "Quit whining you uppity gays!!!"

[ProSense]

71. "Quit whining you uppity gays!!!" Where did that come from? n/t

[hulklogan]

75. From 5 brazillion threads in the post-McClurkin era n/t

[ShortnFiery]

15. Shhh! Don't ask, Don't tell...What a disaster for our U.S. Military and deceitful by Clinton.

who gave clear signs in his campaign speeches that homosexuals would be fully integrated (and welcome) within our military. :(

[FredScuttle]

19. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to post this

Pastor Donnie McClurkin - gospel recording star and "ex-gay" bigot. This is the clown that Obama hired to perform at his campaign event in October 2007, at a time where he was trailing Clinton among black voters in the state. Once the announcement was made, numerous LGBT groups contacted the Obama campaign to protest and advise that this was an unforgivable insult to the LGBT community to include a bigot whose previous statements on homosexuality included:

"Homosexuality is a curse"
"Homosexuality is killing our kids"
"I'm at war with homosexuality"

Not to mention McClurkin's affiliation with the "ex-gay" movement, which does incredible harm to LGBT children and teens. Obama chose to ignore all of this and proceed with the concert. McClurkin turned out to be the evening's star attraction...he was the MC of the night and had a 1/2 hour all to himself at the end of the night to preach hatred and homophobia to an enthusiastic crowd of bigots and morons. He proclaimed "God delivered me from homosexuality" and the bigot crowd cheered.

Obama has yet to apologize for his horrific decision to host this bigot and for the homophobic filth this bigot spewed at the event.

[rawtribe]

21. Thank you for your post!

:yourock:

[ProSense]

23. There is criticism and then there is perspective.

If you believe he still needs to apologize fine, but a crusade of hate and distortions is not effective.

[FredScuttle]

26. Like David St. Hubbins once said

TOO MUCH FUCKING PERSPECTIVE!



So what about my post was "hate" and "distortions"? Do tell...I'm atwitter with anticipation

[ProSense]

27. "hate"

Obama has yet to apologize for his horrific decision to host this bigot and for the homophobic filth this bigot spewed at the event.

You really hate McClurkin, and you hate Obama for associating with him.

You can write a letter to Obama and demand that he apologize. I doubt that will happen. The situation may have been mishandle, but McClurkin is not a member of Obama's campaign. It was a one-time event. Like I said, it's unlikely that you will not get the response you are seeking, and then you can make a decision not to support him, if you haven't already.

[FredScuttle]

28. I hate bigots for their bigotry and the evil they commit in our world

How do you feel towards them?

on edit: no distortions then, I guess, eh?

[ProSense]

29. "How do you feel towards them?"

I don't like bigots, but I don't think my opinion about them matters much to them. McClurkin is not running for office. You can decide to support Obama or not. There are people who were upset by the incident who still support him.

[FredScuttle]

30. So where are the so-called "distortions" in my post?

Yeah, I thought so.

on edit: "There are people who were upset by the incident who still support him". They're called "bigot apologists"

[ProSense]

31. You misunderstood my post:

McClurkin is the bigot. Obama is not McClurkin.

Therein lies the distortion in your original comment. You claim Obama has yet to apologize, but he has issued a statement, and you know an apology isn't forthcoming. It's really futile. Writing to him and demanding it would be more effective.

Insulting people who choose to forgive a misstep and move on is not cool!

[FredScuttle]

32. Obama welcomed a bigot onto his campaign stage and gave him a microphone

to spew homophobic filth to a receptive crowd of like-minded bigots.

Yes, Obama is not McClurkin....he's not an "ex-gay" bigot who declares he's "at war with homosexuality". But he panders to and embraces bigotry when it serves his purpose (South Carolina, where Obama closed the gap with Clinton among black voters).

Obama claimed that he disagreed with Pastor Donnie's views, but he also released a statement that claimed "Donnie does not want to change gays who are happy with their lives"

Are you kidding me?

[ProSense]

33. No, I didn't characterize the statement.

I said he issued one, not that it was an apology, which as I said is not forthcoming. I am sure everyone knows that.

[FredScuttle]

34. So, you're cool with a Democratic candidate not apologizing for a bigoted statement

issued under his banner, from the stage at his own event?

[ProSense]

35. Go back and read the series of comments. That's already been addressed! n/t

[FredScuttle]

40. I'll take it the answer is no

Glad to meet another bigot apologist

[ProSense]

43. If it has already been addressed and available in this thread, how is that the same as no?

This is your problem you prefer spin and distortion to facts.

[FredScuttle]

46. I beg your pardon? Who's spinning?

I asked you a simple question. You're referring me to a "series of comments" where "this has been addressed". Doesn't sound like "yes" or "no" to me.

[Solon]

51. Where was the misstep?

Here's a brief timeline of what happened.

McClurkin(and 3 other homophobic acts), were slated for an Obama sponsored Gospel event.

Story broke that McClurkin, and to a lesser extent, the other 3 homophobes, were actually homophobes.

LGBT activists cried foul, demanded Obama pull at least McClurkin.

Obama's campaign responded that they were not pulling the acts, said he disagreed with McClurkin's view, and that he was only going to sing and added a white gay minister at the beginning of the act.

Concert happens, McClurkin was found to have MC'ed the event, and, to add insult to injury, was given a half hour to preach about how he was "saved from Homosexuality". Obama himself said that McClurkin and others, including 2 other homophobes, were his "favorite acts" and an "inspiration".

Obama said he was right about not dropping McClurkin, and said, again, that he disagrees with him.

Obama, to this day, has yet to apologize for his two-faced handling of this event. This wasn't a misstep, if, before the initial story about McClurkin's views were known, Obama dropped him, and possibly the other homophobes, from the event, all could have been forgiven. But no, he had to lie about what was really going to happen at the concert, and has yet to apologize, that is unforgivable. To dismiss this as a fucking "misstep" is an insult!

[FredScuttle]

52. Excellent summary

Don't forget, in his interview with the Advocate, Obama claimed that McClurkin wasn't "vetted properly"

Does he think we're stupid?

[Solon]

55. And all Obama has to say to make things better is "I fucked up, I'm sorry."

or at least something to that effect.

ON EDIT: Actually, what also could have been forgivable is if Obama said that McClurkin wasn't vetted properly, and then dropped his homophobic ass(and the others) from the tour. Too bad that didn't happen.

[FredScuttle]

56. No way Obama could drop Pastor Donnie from the "Change Teh Gay" Tour

Not when he was trailing Clinton in South Carolina among black voters and needed all those sweet, sweet primary voters who happened to be clown bigots just like their idol, Pastor Donnie.

[Solon]

57. Too true, and too sad. n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

80. so, if I'm understanding

you correctly Solon, you would want someone to reject a person based on their sexual orientation?

And if they don't do that- then they should be ostracized themself? And defined as an enemy- because there is only one acceptable standard- And there will be no room for divergence.

I don't for one minute believe that Obama thinks that a person has to adopt the "straight" life in order to be seen as a full, equal member of society. But if you can try and step back and see this from a distance-.... which I understand is not easy-
Maybe you can understand why this issue isn't going anywhere but in circles.

Is the GLBT community not rejecting Mclurken "the human being" ? It isn't "his message" or "his actions"- that are being questioned, or called out it is the man himself.

He must be destroyed, denied, denounced-"Donnie Mclurken"'s homophobic ass is toast.

I despise the concept that people must conform to some kind of 'societal norm' or be rejected.

I don't believe that sexual orientation is a choice, or something that should, or can be changed.
I don't think Mclurken's sexuality needed healing.
I don't like Mclurkens style of music, even though I think he's talented.
And yet there are many people who do. Would you reject them because they happen to like music which is created by a man who believes he is an "ex-homosexual".

That is also bigotry.

Peace~

[Solon]

81. Bullshit, and you know it, being "ex-gay" is no more an orientation than...

being "ex-white" is a race. Its fucking stupid that you would even bring this up. How fucking revolting!

Always rely on Obama supporters to come out with some vile justification for homophobia! :puke:

[Bluerthanblue]

84. I am in

NO WAY justifying homophobia.

And you know it-

If you believe (and I DO) that homosexuality is something that you ARE- a part of your very essence- something that cannot be changed, something that doesn't NEED to be changed (except in the mind of others) - then you have to also acknowledge that Mclurken is gay. Whether he is able to embrace that part of himself or not- he is who he is.

And you aren't asking people to hate his message- you are encouraging people to hate HIM-

People - all kinds of people- not "Obama" supporters- or "Clinton supporters" or "repubs" or "Muslims" or any prejudice you choose, are always looking for a way to justify HATE.

I find that revolting- And I find it even more disturbing when it comes from people who claim to desire to create a better world- free from prejudice and bigotry of all kinds.

I ask you to consider the possibility that some of the rage you feel towards Obama, may actually be part of the betrayal, frustration and anger you feel about Doonnie Mclurken- himself.

I wish you peace and healing~

[Solon]

85. Obama LIED...

Do you understand that, or do you want me to spell it out for you, in big fucking letters?

Obama LIED!

Is that understood now? The fact of the matter is that if McClurkin is gay, that in no way means that he is immune from not only criticism, but also hatred for his homophobic actions and words. That's as simple as I can make it. I hate bigotry, even worse when it comes from someone as self loathing as McClurkin. To be frank, I don't give a flying fuck what you think about this. Its obvious that you have no interest in understanding this, you want everyone to sing kumbaya and hold hands, well, McClurkin won't do it, and neither will I.

Also, I add the "IF" before claiming McClurkin is a homosexual because as far as I know, he could be lying, or he could be bisexual. There's a claim that he had a male lover back in 2003-2004, after he came out as "ex-gay", but then again, I don't know if that's substantiated yet. He could be, as far as I know, as straight as I am, and that would just make him a fraud and a liar. Hell, I could claim I was "ex-gay" myself, and fuck women left and right, while deriding the "gay lifestyle" all I want, would that make me gay? No, of course not, the fact of the matter is that his actions are atrocious, along with his words. He's either in self-denial or lying to us, in either case, he deserves neither sympathy nor respect.

[Bluerthanblue]

91. well hey-

I've had a few conversations with you over the years, and always respected you. I still do-

I'm not going to tell you what your interests are, or what you think- that's not mine to know or pretend to know.

Despite what you say- I have a STRONG desire to understand this- to TRULY understand this- but all I hear are people making demands, responding with angry outrageous statments- and continually revisit the incident over and over- instead of being willing to make a genuine effort to discuss and consider the situation reasonably.

People love to throw out the Kumbaya- hand holding mantras- It is much easier to reject any meaningful discussion, than to be willing to take the effort to talk and listen. You may want to ask yourself what might be so frightinging about connecting with those you see as "your enemy". You may have some wisdom that could really help others, but no one is going to hear it when it is being drowned out by the yelling and buried in anger.

I won't keep bugging you -

I wish you only good things-

peace~
blu

[ProSense]

61. OK, it wasn't a misstep. You believe it was fine. I believe it was a misstep.

Obama, to this day, has yet to apologize for his two-faced handling of this event.

Let me reiterate: You claim Obama has yet to apologize, but he has issued a statement, and you know an apology isn't forthcoming. So what's the point? You're not going to forgive him? OK!

[Solon]

63. Actually, I've been trying to put pressure on his campaign, through e-mails...

letters, etc. All to no avail. The problem I have is that you, and many other Obama supporters, completely dismiss this LEGITIMATE beef we have with Obama. To be honest, if you want to stop looking like asses, stop minimizing what happened by snarkily calling it a "misstep" or a "mistake". For fuck's sake, it wasn't just a misstep, Obama LIED, period. That has a level of maliciousness or thoughtlessness to it.

[ProSense]

64. "The problem I have is that you, and many other Obama supporters"

So you're blaming it on me? I'm supposed to adopt your attitude simply to make it easier for you to have one?

[Solon]

65. Did you, or did you not, just dismiss Obama's lie as a "misstep"?

Please clarify what you actually meant.

[ProSense]

66. I meant misstep! n/t

[Solon]

67. See? And that's why I have a problem with some Obama supporters...

this minimizing of Obama's calculating lie and pandering to a homophobe disgusts me. What disgusts me more are those that minimize, or even outright defend both Obama and McClurkin. This is a "Get over it" thread, you are no friend to GLBT people, that much is clear.

[ProSense]

70. You can have a problem with supporters of any of the candidates, but

that's not going to change anything! This is not a "Get over it" thread. You are free to continue on your chosen path.

[Solon]

74. Then what the hell is it?

You are so cryptic, I have no effing clue where you stand. Start a thread with a subject line about McClurkin, and then, in your post, it veers off from beating a dead horse to Kerry and Bill Clinton. In other words, you slam three things together that make no sense without context that you failed to provide in the first place. Hell, I'm just responding to the dead horse image, in other words, I think what you meant in your OP is that all of us who complain about McClurkin still are beating a dead horse. In other words, we have to get over it, or that no one cares anymore. Whatever it is, its insulting in the extreme.

[ProSense]

77. "You are so cryptic, I have no effing clue where you stand."? Start

here and read through my responses. Plainly stated and clear.

[Solon]

79. First, you minimize the incident in that post even more...

"may have mishandle" never mind the typo, then you make a friendly suggestion of contacting the campaign while at the same time saying its useless. What is the point of this thread?

[Bluebear]

92. ...

Good luck! :rofl:

[TwilightZone]

39. Hey, don't you know that you're just supposed to shut up and get over it?

Besides, as the OP says, Clinton did it, too.

What? He didn't? Well then....

[PurityOfEssence]

22. Redux: it's okay to fuck over the downtrodden for as long as you claim to be their savior

It's a hopeful, inclusive world, unless it's necessary to appease religious bigots.

Hey, I love homos; I'll even trot one out for my big medicine show, as long as he's white.

This was a deplorable act of cynicism, calculated to play to the basest instincts, done sloppily, and treated with the cavalier dismissal of a Machiavellian parlor game. No Republican has done anything as shameful this cycle, and that's a damning indictment.

[ProSense]

24. That would be all the candidates! n/t

[Skip Intro]

37. I'm sure you would like this issue to just go away. It won't.

[HughMoran]

38. You have more active posts than anyone on GDP

46!

[ProSense]

41. I win! n/t

[Bluebear]

49. And all Obama spam.

[ProSense]

86. As opposed to your anti-Obama spam? n/t

[TwilightZone]

44. Your "source" is a blog post about Bob Shrum's book?

:rofl:

[ProSense]

45. Did you miss the links to Time, Newsweek, Bloomberg and the NYT?

Are you going to try to discredit these sources too? I think your laughter sums it up.

[eridani]

47. Kerry's voting record was (and is) great; his 2004 campaigning wasn't

In 2004, Cinncinnati gay rights activists organized to successfully overturn a nasty anti-gay law, winning with 65% of the voted. The Fairness Coalition had the majority of ministers and priests in town on board, African American ones included.

And who did Kerry choose to stand with him on stage while campaigning in Cinncinnati? The only African American ministers in town who were NOT part of the Fairness Coalition!

[Solon]

48. Obama lied, McClurkin Preached, and you decide to deflect...

Why the fuck am I not surprised? :eyes:

[terrya]

50. Do you really even give a damn about GLBT people?

Do you really even slightly care about an "ex-gay" shill who says gay people are "sick" and need to be "cured" and who loudly said "Praise be...God delivered me from homosexuality!" at a fundraiser for a Democratic Presidential candidate?

I wonder sometimes about the "geez, get over it, you whiny faggots" thing around here.

[William769]

54. Apparently not.

What does the tittle have to do with what was posted. I have seen imploding before but this takes the cake!

[ProSense]

62. I give a damn about all people! n/t

[Solon]

68. Prove it...

Admit you were wrong in starting this thread.

[ProSense]

72. "Admit you were wrong in starting this thread." No, I was not wrong! "Prove it"

I love you!

[Solon]

76. Heh, you'd have to prove that too, show some empathy...

put up or shut up.

If you want to know why this issue pisses me off so much, read my post about it, from months ago, oh, and an FYI, I have since repudated my subject line and any apologies to Obama Supporters since then, they don't deserve it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3640165

[Bluerthanblue]

82. do YOU?

Who is the real loser here Terrya?

Is Mclurken not a person?

If an openly Gay person was invited to sing at a campaign event, and they spoke out saying some outrageous things would you want that person to be condemned and destroyed- or would you want it made clear that the MESSAGE belonged to that individual- and did not represent anyone else?

Is Mclurken not a gay person? even if he denies himself?

I'm having a hard time with the double standards.

peace~

[Solon]

83. What double standards?

Here's a hint, McClurkin being a human being has no bearing on the vile shit he has spewed that is to be condemned.

As far as his orientation, he claims to be "ex-gay" and he may very well be homosexual, if so, he's a self loathing homosexual, and generally such a person would deserve my pity, but not him, he decided to make it public, and try to claim that Jesus made him straight. The fact of the matter is that he is a symbol of false hope for any GLBT person who loathes themselves because of rejection by family, church, and society. And people wonder why GLBT teenage suicide rates are 3 times the national average! Get a fucking grip!

[Bluerthanblue]

90. I'm not ignorant

about the damage that is done to people who are rejected, marginalized, abused by society. I have a fucking grip Solon.
The statistics and facts you cite are not new to me- or something that I find acceptable or inevitable. I'm in no way shape or form endorsing homophobia or encouraging Mclurkens notion that "Jesus" made him straight.

It is easy to feel pity for some people. I've found that the people who need it the most, are the ones I feel least inclined to extend it to. Those who I cannot see without seeing through my own pain and anger.

Please believe me when I say my intent isn't to minimize- ignore- or dismiss the reality of your pain or the validity of your outrage when it comes to what this society has done and continues to do to GLBT individuals. I'm not an apologist- or defender of bigotry and hatred- in any form-

I can't help but feel pity for Mclurken- that doesn't mean I approve of his message- or in any way agree with him.
He is, in the end- the biggest loser.


peace.

[beachmom]

58. Love it!!! Great threader, Prosense. n/t

[LostinVA]

73. Yup, because being against bigotry and for civil rights is a dead horse

[ProSense]

78. So you're against McClurkin's bigotry.

McClurkin is not a member of Obama's campaign. The dead horse is the incident, not the cause of civil rights. I think Obama, as a civil rights attorney, understands this more than most.

[Bluebear]

87. McClurkin is not a member of Obama's campaign, just a hired spokesperson.

Fair enough.

[ProSense]

88. "a hired spokesperson." Really? n/t

[Bluebear]

89. Hell yes he was hired as master of ceremonies of Obama campaign events.

That would qualify.

[ProSense]

93. Kick! n/t