Obama in November 2007: “studies show that from the time of conception"

[Captain_Nemo]

How can any self-respecting pro-choice person trust this guy?


http://blogs.unionleader.com/andrew-cline/?p=995

Drew Cline
Obama: Education for fetuses
Tuesday November 20th 2007, 2:13 pm
Filed under: Blog Posts

In his education speech at Central High School this morning, Sen. Barack Obama said he would fund early childhood education programs because “studies show that from the time of conception to the first day of kindergarten, children’s development progresses faster than at any other stage of life. By the age of three, 85% of the brain’s core structure is already formed. Eighty-five percent.”

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Because that is essentially true

Now how you made the connection that he is not pro choice from a SCIENTIFIC statement, based on development, I am baffled

Now if he had said, we cannot afford to have abortions because those brains are developing, that is another story

[Captain_Nemo]

15. I am a strong pro-choice advocate and his language is Bullshit here. I want a candidate

to take a firm stand. I want to feel like my candidate will not be swayed by the religious right. By using language as he did in this speech he is giving a clear signal to religious righters (who he tries to win over with his religious talk.)

I am actually stunned at the responses from my so-called progressive fellow DU'ers. You can attack me all you want. I do not believe the post is silly. I believe it is indicative of his views.

Take a look at the voting record - did he vote "yes" on aboriton legislaiton or just "present."

I think Obama tries to ride both sides of the fence.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. I am just making a comment on the science not his stance

the statement you gave me, is essentially true.

Most of the brain develops in the first three years.

That is science... the rest develops up to age ten to twelve depending on who you read.

And if you see the SCIENCE as an attack... well tough sheet, different day.

Is he pro choice FROM HIS VOTING RECORD? apparently yes, according to NARAL and other organizations, I will have to dig up that, since I was under the impression he was not.

[Horse with no Name]

27. Not really. BUT he did make a very important and frightening distinction

He CALLED the fetus a CHILD. It goes against EVERY Pro-Choice argument out there.

[iconocrastic]

30. Is a fetus a child or not?

[Horse with no Name]

36. No. It is not. n/t

[iconocrastic]

42. "Frightening"?

Interesting choice of words.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. No...

Not legally or scientifically... but once again, if you look at brain development it does occur (mostly) in the time frame given

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. As I said, reading what the OP gave, it is a correct statement from a SCIENTIFIC POV

is he pro choice BASED on his voting record? From looking at the organizations that think he is, I will have to look further, since I was under the impression that he was not.

Edited on facts given bellow by other DU'ers

[Horse with no Name]

106. He keeps parsing words

and that is my problem. TECHNICALLY he is correct, but he definitely leaves the window open for people on both sides of the aisle to wonder.

[Adelante]

2. What are you saying?

Studies don't show "that from the time of conception to the first day of kindergarten, children’s development progresses faster than at any other stage of life"?

Or children's development progresses slower between conception and kindergarten than any other stage?

[FrenchieCat]

3. Have you seen his NARAL rating?

You might want to.

NARAL Reaffirms Support For Obama Following Clinton Attack
NARAL Pro-Choice America's political director, Elizabeth Shipp, said that the organization was confident with the platforms of Obama and every other front-running Democratic presidential candidate.

"We are fortunate to have such strong pro-choice candidates like Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, as well as former Sen. John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, running for president," Shipp said. "All of these candidates have strongly communicated their pro-choice values. We are confident that any one of these candidates would protect and defend a woman's right to choose, if elected president."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/06/naral-reaffirm...

[LulaMay]

7. His voting record is good.

But how does he FEEL? We need judges who are deeply committed to women's rights. We need more liberal women judges. Who would he appoint?

[Captain_Nemo]

25. I think he would not be as strong on choice as Hillary.

[WCGreen]

47. What has he voted for this term...

I can't think of anything of substance that came up this term for reproductive rights...

I could be wrong...

If I am pleae enlighten me...

[Captain_Nemo]

53. His choices of words on abortion rights shows me he wants to bring the righties into his camp.

[Hekate]

100. I have to go by his public record, which is sterling.He gets the nod from NARAL & Planned Parenthood

His emotional state is his business, imo. He can pray -- or not. He can attend church -- or not. I am concerned with his public record and with his evidence of public ethics, both of which pass muster with pro-choice organizations.

Hekate

[Adelante]

4. These groups call him pro-choice

NARAL PRO CHOICE:
Clinton 100% Edwards 100%
Obama 100% McCain 0%

NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE
Clinton 0% Edwards 0%
Obama 0% McCain 75%

PLANNED PARENTHOOD:
Clinton 100% Edwards 100%
Obama 100% McCain 0%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Horse with no Name]

29. I plan on sending them all of these statements he is making

We will see if they continue to consider him Pro-Choice or just wishy-washy.

[Joe the Revelator]

5. Do we ignore scientific facts in order to prop up abortion without fault?

Like the evangelicals do with creationism.

[BlueIris]

17. Ew.

EW, EW, EW, EW, EWWWWWWW.

[Captain_Nemo]

60. so it is a fact that we start learning at conception? And, in a campaign, what does one hear

when the term "conception" is used as part of a stage of children's development. Methinks he wants the anti-abortion people to think he can be swayed in the future.

[Hekate]

101. Your brain (well, maybe not your personal brain, but most of them) starts developing, okay?

Wolsh has a good point here.

Hekate

[LulaMay]

6. I know what you mean. Whenever someone says 'from conception' it's not good

It's not just conservative men who like us in our 'place'. Kucinich was anti choice a long long time, and is still unconvincing about his 'turn around' or depth of understanding and commitment.

How much has anybody said about it, about women's rights except Hillary? She has consistently brought it up. Edwards tries to occasionally, usually in response. I haven't heard Obama volunteer much at all.

[Occam Bandage]

13. See, this is the problem.

Obama says "from conception," and people say "OMG HE'S PRO-LIFE."
Obama says "Reagan changed the country," and people say "OMG HE LIKES REAGAN."

These just serve to demonstrate which DUers are capable of paying attention for a whole paragraph and which are not.

[Captain_Nemo]

21. Thank you for this. I feel my post is being laughed at by people who believe we start learning

at conception.

[Horse with no Name]

32. A newborn infant is a bundle of reflexes

The language infuriates me too.

[Hekate]

102. I've had two newborn infants. They are individuals with personalities from the start.

And, as I keep mentioning, I am pro-choice. A zygote doesn't get a vote -- the woman does.

But don't imagine that babies are only bundles of reflexes.

Hekate

[Horse with no Name]

105. Not arguing

However, all newborns have the reflex to be fed, to be warm, and for comfort. That is all they know.
I will agree that they have personalities--it has been proven that the newborn carries through at least early childhood. I will disagree that they are born with any type of cognitive skills.

[Occam Bandage]

41. Nobody believes that. You're objecting to Obama's empirically correct statement

that neural development begins at conception.

[LulaMay]

83. You are spot-on, thank you for posting!

[LandOLincoln]

8. This is either very clumsy snark, or one of the

sillier posts I've seen here in a looong time (and that's saying something).

In any case, the Union Leader is a wingnut rag, you're quoting a wingnut blogger quoting Obama, then going on to ask how Obama can possibly be pro-choice.

Exactly HOW do you conclude from that, that those of us who are pro-choice can't trust Obama on that issue?

Disclaimer: I am not an Obama supporter, but this post makes no sense.

[Captain_Nemo]

22. What's a snark?

[BeyondGeography]

9. The happiest day of my life was when my wife's doctor told us

our yet-to-be-born baby's brain wasn't developing.

[Unsane]

10. 100% NARAL rating. Next.

[Captain_Nemo]

18. Check this out before you move on: I think Obama plays it safe. On abortion I want a firm stand.

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/01/obama_campai...

UPDATE:
As Karen notes in her post, the Clinton campaign responded with a call of their own in which they highlighted Obama's trend of "present" votes, while acknowledging that it was part of a Planned Parenthood strategy.
“Pam Sutherland was not lying,” said Gaye Bruhn, who headed up Illinois NOW at the time of the votes. “We did differ on that strategy. We talked about it. We still differ on it. And she knew that we lobbied against it.”
Ann Lewis, a Clinton campaign senior advisor said the issue is not just the seven abortion votes, but many of Obama’s 129 “present” votes that were disappointing to women. “Presidents don’t get to vote present,” Lewis said. The campaign pointed to Obama’s “present” votes on a bill that would’ve allowed victims of sexual assault the right to petition to have their records sealed, a measure that would’ve tightened parental fitness requirements for adoption and a bill that would’ve increased penalties for using a firearm within 1,000 feet of a school.
“When we think about electing a president, as women we need to think of someone who will stand up for these issues regardless of what it does to his or her electabiltiy,” Bruhn said.
I'm waiting for a response from the Obama campaign on these other votes, though one political strategist did, rightly, point out that the accusations seem to have migrated from pro-choice to a whole host of women’s issues.

[Avalux]

11. Oh for heaven's sake. He is stating a FACT.

How on earth can you read anything political about his stance on abortion rights into that statement?

[Occam Bandage]

12. That is medical fact. Does being pro-choice now mean we deny developmental neuroscience?

[JVS]

74. YES! The Brain exists only after birth!

[bunnies]

14. What is this... some sort of twisted flat earth mentality?

Its a fucking fact. And also, the Earth is NOT 6000 years old.

[Bonobo]

16. But that quote is true! What possible objection can an intelligent person have with the truth?

[Captain_Nemo]

20. show me the studies that show that that we start learning at conception? What possible

motivation would someone have to say this? The only thing this statement achieves is giving an anti-abortion person a chance to say "I think he may be one of us."

If one can "learn" at conception than I guess abortion is murder.

[Bonobo]

33. He didn't say, in that quote, that learning starts at conception. Check again.

[Captain_Nemo]

50. Fair enough. I looked at the quote again and I like it even less this time.

Obama is very religious. He talks to the religious right in religious terms. Now, I read this:

“studies show that from the time of conception to the first day of kindergarten, children’s development progresses faster than at any other stage of life.

he is talking about "children." He is talking about children's "development." He says it starts at conception. Now, given all of the religious tak I have heard from Obama I'd say he is continuing to reach for middle ground - that is, bring in the anti-abortion people into his camp.

[BlueIris]

19. I think Obama has said some appalling things about the issue (of abortion rights) but

this particular statement doesn't (really) irk me. I'll admit that one of my reasons for being lukewarm about his "candidacy" is that I think it's weak on choice. But this doesn't bug. A lot of the other comments in this thread do, though.

[Captain_Nemo]

23. The comment bugs me because it is another example of his kowtowing to religious right while

saying he just wants to bring people together.

[Horse with no Name]

24. A little loose with the science here

http://www.brainmind.com/FetalBrainDevelopment.html
As will be detailed below, the behavior of the fetus and newborn is likely a reflection of reflexive brainstem activities which are produced in the absence of forebrain-mediated affective or cognitive processing, i.e. thinking, reasoning, understanding, or true emotionality (Joseph, 1996a, 1999; Levene, 1993; Sroufe, 1996). It is the much slower to develop forebrain which generates higher order cognitive activity and purposeful behaviors, and which is responsible for the expression and experience of true emotions including pleasure, rage, fear and joy and the desire for social-emotional contact (Joseph, 1992, 1996ab, 1999; MacLean, 1990).

It would have been MORE accurate to say that from birth to the age of three--because THAT is the REAL truth.

However, it's only politics. Right? Women only abort a thinking, reasoning fetus after prayerful consideration.

[hertopos]

39. Thank you for clarifying this for people who does not get this

'From conception..." is a very serious 'misleading statement'.
Are all other people dense about this.

I am learning more about what Obama really said and wrote.

I know what I get with Hillary. However, I become more and more afraid if Obama got elected.

Hertopos

[Captain_Nemo]

It is the coded part of "conception" that makes me nervous. And his reagan thing, too. Ugh.

[SoxFan]

26. Drew Cline?

Guys, Drew Clline is the editorial writer for the NH Union leader, a thoroughly conservative newspaper.

Now, I know Drew. I actually like him. He has good taste in music, I won a book in his trivia contest, and actually isn't above supporting a Democrat when he thinks he or she is a decent and responsible person ( ). But I have noticed that when a conservative says something inconvenient about Hillary, the souce is a big deal. Let's see if there's some consistency.

[Bluerthanblue]

28. because it is the truth- like it or not. And he understands it

well enough to present it in a way that anyone with average compehension skills can understand.
Using scientific facts to explain why early childhood education is important may seem outrageous to you- but I'll be happy to have a president who can give good reasons for what he champions, and who can articulate them as well as Obama does.

may you know peace~

[Crunchy Frog]

31. So you're saying that there isn't a great deal of development

that takes place prenatally? A single cell to an eight pound baby in 9 months is not rapid development?

Call me crazy or reactionary or anti-choice, but I happen to think you're wrong there.

[Horse with no Name]

34. Not cognitive development.

The learning doesn't begin until the infant is BORN.

[Occam Bandage]

43. "Learning" and "development" are not synonyms.

[Horse with no Name]

44. But when talking about childhood EDUCATION

he implied it. The day you can prove to me that a fetus is capable of ANY cognition...I'll resign my memberships in Planned Parenthood and NARAL.

[Occam Bandage]

45. I don't think he did.

He was merely pointing out--correctly--that the brain develops incredibly quickly from conception until the age of three. It does.

As for "learning" and "cognition?" Those are very tricky subjects. Obviously there is neural activity, but we require more than that for learning and cognition. There is a great deal of debate--especially in my home field of linguistics--as to what is learned how and why.

For instance, there is much evidence that the process of language learning begins prenatally. Fetuses do attune to human voice, and are capable of noticing differences in voice and sound--and of memory of voices. While not done consciously, of course, this is a necessary stage in the development of language. (Most language learning, in fact, is not done consciously.)

http://brn.sagepub.com/cgi/content/refs/8/4/272

Don't go turning in that NARAL membership, though. Simply realize that it's a more nuanced issue than you thought.

[Horse with no Name]

46. That is a theory

and ONLY a theory. I see about 50-60 newborn infants every week. I am here to tell you that they do not respond to voice or anything else except hunger, comfort, and temperature.

[Occam Bandage]

48. No, it's not a theory. It's been repeatedly tested and verified. I've read literally

dozens--perhaps hundreds--of studies on infant and prenatal language development. (That article, in fact, is only about the effects of the mother's hypertension on fetal memory; it certainly isn't the only in the field.) I spent two years doing nothing but work in early childhood language development. Sure, they react largely on reflex--their social smile is a reflex to face-shaped phenomena; they cry when hungry, etc. But to claim that there is no cognitive development is false.

There is a vast gulf between "act purely on reflex" and "no cognitive development."

[Horse with no Name]

49. Theory. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

58. Fingers. Ears. n/t

[EffieBlack]

35. Because being pro-choice doesn't mean one can't think abortion is wrong

It means not forcing your views about abortion into the law and other people's lives.

Obama is the very essence of pro choice.

[Captain_Nemo]

61. Oh really....and does this apply to gay rights too? I mean if you are pro-choice and think

abortion is wrong is it ok to believe in civil unions but really think that homosexuality is deviant?

[EffieBlack]

73. Yes

To quote Dr. King, ""It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important."

I'm less concerned about any candidate or public official's personal views than I am about their policies. I am a Christian. But that would never stop me from supporting an atheist or a Jew or a Muslim or anyone else on the basis that their religious views, or lack thereof, differ from mine. As long as they don't impose their religious views on me or the country in their official actions, I couldn't care less. And I feel the same way about anyone whose religious views are the SAME as mine - I don't want them forcing their views on me or anyone else either. I don't have the time or even the right to worry about everyone else's religious views - I have enough on my hands trying to follow my own heart and conscience without worrying about about everyone else's.

There have been a number of politicians, past and present, who have held views on race that I don't necessarily agree with. But unless their racial attitudes affect their work, I can't worry about their personal opinions. Harry Truman was widely known as a bigot who often made friends uncomfortable with his unashamed use of the n-word in casual conversation. But he did not let his questionable personal attitudes affect his actions - and, in fact, changed the course of history with his courageous and, for that time, wildly progressive moves, such as issuing executive orders integrating the armed forces and setting up the Fair Employment Practices Commission.

We all have biases and prejudices. Every one of us. It is not a sin to have them, but it is, in my view, wrong to pretend they don't exist, thereby failing make any effort to rise above them. And I believe that politicians who may personally feel that homosexuality is wrong or that abortion is murder or that mixed marriages are a sin or that evolution is a myth or that there is no God should not, ipso facto, be barred from public office if they do not force those views onto their constituents, either in practice or in law.

So, I am perfectly comfortable with a candidate who believes that abortion is the taking of a human life or that homosexuality is deviant, if they also recognize the right of others to disagree and to live their lives free of constraints imposed on them by the religious teachings of others.

That's the very essence of being pro-choice. It doesn't mean that I have to agree with you. It means that I respect your right to have a different view and to make your choices accordingly without any coercion from the government or anyone else. Being pro-choice on abortion does not necessarily mean thinking that abortion is fine and dandy, that it is not a bad thing; being pro-choice on abortion means that, regardless how you personally feel about abortions, you respect the views of others who have a different opinion of it than you do.

[ripple]

80. Very well-stated, Effie!

[Captain_Nemo]

87. I have four examples where I think his language is indicative of being easily swayed by

the religious right:"

1. The words weren't offensive to me. But, Obama let a pro-lifer get him to alter words on his website.

"So I looked at my website and found the offending words. In fairness to them, my staff had written them using standard Democratic boilerplate language to summarize my pro-choice position during the Democratic primary, at a time when some of my opponents were questioning my commitment to protect Roe v. Wade.

Re-reading the doctor's letter, though, I felt a pang of shame. It is people like him who are looking for a deeper, fuller conversation about religion in this country. They may not change their positions, but they are willing to listen and learn from those who are willing to speak in fair-minded words. Those who know of the central and awesome place that God holds in the lives of so many, and who refuse to treat faith as simply another political issue with which to score points.

So I wrote back to the doctor, and I thanked him for his advice. The next day, I circulated the email to my staff and changed the language on my website to state in clear but simple terms my pro-choice position. And that night, before I went to bed, I said a prayer of my own - a prayer that I might extend the same presumption of good faith to others that the doctor had extended to me. "

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal /

2. His church and his fervent dedication to it. Frankly, I wouldn't belong to a church that sold books on creationism.

3. Donie McClurkin

4. Bonus one: the many times I have heard him say "His truth" "his word" referring to Christ.

You know, I just don't feel he is completely on my side on this issue.

The quote about MLK is nice but, I have been fighting hard for abortion rights since 1980 (when Reagan gave rise to the religious right in this country) and I am going to look hard at what a person says and does when it comes to that issue. We are on the verge of losing an important right and I don't take it lightly. If a candidate feels, in their heart, that abortion is wrong, I don't want them appointing a Supreme Court Justice.

[Hekate]

103. Well said, Effie! Hope to be seeing you around!

I have to exit this thread soon -- some of the posters are going on Ignore... ...for the sake of my blood pressure.



Hekate

[Hekate]

104. Very well stated, Effie! Hope to be seeing you around!

I have to exit this thread soon -- some of the posters are going on Ignore... ...for the sake of my blood pressure.



Hekate

[question everything]

37. And he does want woma to decide "prayerfully" about abortion (nt)

[zulchzulu]

38. I guess NARAL and Planned Parenthood giving Obama a 100% rating means nothing to you

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can...

I guess they don't know his voting record. Contact them, hoss. You're the friggin' genius.

[Captain_Nemo]

55. Well, I never said I was a friggin' anything but maybe we should look at this:

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/01/obama_campai ...

UPDATE:
As Karen notes in her post, the Clinton campaign responded with a call of their own in which they highlighted Obama's trend of "present" votes, while acknowledging that it was part of a Planned Parenthood strategy.
“Pam Sutherland was not lying,” said Gaye Bruhn, who headed up Illinois NOW at the time of the votes. “We did differ on that strategy. We talked about it. We still differ on it. And she knew that we lobbied against it.”
Ann Lewis, a Clinton campaign senior advisor said the issue is not just the seven abortion votes, but many of Obama’s 129 “present” votes that were disappointing to women. “Presidents don’t get to vote present,” Lewis said. The campaign pointed to Obama’s “present” votes on a bill that would’ve allowed victims of sexual assault the right to petition to have their records sealed, a measure that would’ve tightened parental fitness requirements for adoption and a bill that would’ve increased penalties for using a firearm within 1,000 feet of a school.

[Occam Bandage]

59. Obama went along with a Planned Parenthood strategy? OMG shocking.

[obamian]

78. That doesn't match what the Chicago Now Director said

Lorna Brett, former president of Chicago NOW: "I am a supporter of Hillary Clinton and an EMILY's List donor, but this line of attack is unacceptable. While I was the president of Chicago National Organization for Women, Senator Obama worked closely with us, could not have been more supportive of a woman's right to choose, and there was no bigger champion in Illinois on our issues. What's important is that the candidates do not cannibalize each other on issues we all agree about because we need to win in November."
http://cameron.blogs.foxnews.com/2007/12/04/emilys-list... /

[jackson_dem]

91. Illinois NOW denounced Obama for it

[Barack_America]

Planned Parenthood, NARAL...you know, groups who know nothing...

about abortion.

But, nevertheless, they trust and support him.

Get a clue.

[Quantess]

40. I don't see the problem. He's right, that the brain development is the fastest

starting from conception. Yet, I'm still about as pro-choice as anyone you'll ever meet.

[Captain_Nemo]

51. As a pro-choicer on a campaign swing would you have used the term "conception?"

As a pro-choice democrat it makes me nervous. I would never have used this terminology lest it be misconstrued.

[Barack_America]

54. If neither Planned Parenthood nor NARAL have a problem with him....

why should you? Ask yourself that. These organizations are the reason we still have abortion rights and they've given Obama a 100% rating.

Actions speak louder than words. An Barack's actions say that he is 100% pro-choice!

I, for one, trust my uterus to him!

[Captain_Nemo]

64. I am not saying you are wrong but there is more to the story that is worth reading.

I am trying to figure it out myself. I am firmly pro-choice and I don't want a wishy-washy dem in the WH.


Speaking to ABC News as Obama was preparing to join Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., and the wife of Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., in addressing Planned Parenthood's national conference in Washington, D.C., Sutherland said Obama approached her in the late 1990s and worked with her and others in crafting the strategy of voting "present." She remembers meeting with Obama outside of the Illinois Senate chambers on the Democratic side of the aisle. She and Obama finished their conversation in his office.

"He came to me and said: 'My members are being attacked. We need to figure out a way to protect members and to protect women,' " said Sutherland in recounting her conversation with Obama. "A 'present' vote was hard to pigeonhole which is exactly what Obama wanted."

"What it did," she continued, "was give cover to moderate Democrats who wanted to vote with us but were afraid to do so" because of how their votes would be used against them electorally. "A 'present' vote would protect them. Your senator voted 'present.' Most of the electorate is not going to know what that means."

While Sutherland was happy to give Obama latitude in voting "present," rather than "no," she was quick to note that "it's also not a 'yes' vote."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200712140004

[Quantess]

66. I'm not slick enough to be a politician, so I can't answer that one.

The word "conception" also makes me think of the importance of prenatal health care, and proper nutrition for pregnant women, etc. I would say that most pro-choicers believe that if a pregnancy will be carried to term, then it should be a healthy pregnancy.

But if his wording strikes other people differently, then maybe it was a poor choice of words. It's not raising red flags for me.

[Occam Bandage]

82. Yes, how dare he use the word that means what he intended to say. From now on,

whenever a candidate wishes to agree, he must say "correct" instead of "right," as that might make people think that the right wing is good. Also, any time a candidate wishes to turn right in a car, he must say "clockwise," as he doesn't want people to think that he intends to move the country to the right.

[Renew Deal]

52. What part of that am I supposed to be upset about?

[Barack_America]

56. He spoke a meaningless "code word" that's all.

But has 100% ratings with PP and NARAL. Um, methinks he's pro-choice.

[Captain_Nemo]

57. code words are used to pull people into their camp without offending others. Look at this:

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/01/obama_campai ...

UPDATE:
As Karen notes in her post, the Clinton campaign responded with a call of their own in which they highlighted Obama's trend of "present" votes, while acknowledging that it was part of a Planned Parenthood strategy.
“Pam Sutherland was not lying,” said Gaye Bruhn, who headed up Illinois NOW at the time of the votes. “We did differ on that strategy. We talked about it. We still differ on it. And she knew that we lobbied against it.”
Ann Lewis, a Clinton campaign senior advisor said the issue is not just the seven abortion votes, but many of Obama’s 129 “present” votes that were disappointing to women. “Presidents don’t get to vote present,” Lewis said. The campaign pointed to Obama’s “present” votes on a bill that would’ve allowed victims of sexual assault the right to petition to have their records sealed, a measure that would’ve tightened parental fitness requirements for adoption and a bill that would’ve increased penalties for using a firearm within 1,000 feet of a school.

[Renew Deal]

62. Are you anti-choice?

Obama was protecting a woman's right to choose. Do you have a problem with that?

[Captain_Nemo]

67. I am a pro-choice feminist. His religious talk makes me nervous - as a woman. Now I hear things

from him that aren't so firm when it comes to abortion rights. WHen it comes to abortion I believe it shouldn't be a political issue - it is a private matter. I believe that one should stand up strong for these things. I liked it when Hillary stood firm and ssid "Yes, I am a feminist." I want to hear firm standings from a candidate.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200712140004

Speaking to ABC News as Obama was preparing to join Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., and the wife of Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., in addressing Planned Parenthood's national conference in Washington, D.C., Sutherland said Obama approached her in the late 1990s and worked with her and others in crafting the strategy of voting "present." She remembers meeting with Obama outside of the Illinois Senate chambers on the Democratic side of the aisle. She and Obama finished their conversation in his office.

"He came to me and said: 'My members are being attacked. We need to figure out a way to protect members and to protect women,' " said Sutherland in recounting her conversation with Obama. "A 'present' vote was hard to pigeonhole which is exactly what Obama wanted."

"What it did," she continued, "was give cover to moderate Democrats who wanted to vote with us but were afraid to do so" because of how their votes would be used against them electorally. "A 'present' vote would protect them. Your senator voted 'present.' Most of the electorate is not going to know what that means."

While Sutherland was happy to give Obama latitude in voting "present," rather than "no," she was quick to note that "it's also not a 'yes' vote."

[Renew Deal]

69. Right, so what's the problem?

That article is complimentary to Obama. And when you consider his interest group ratings, he's good on the issue.

[Captain_Nemo]

70. I have two choices in the election - Obama and Clinton. Obama talks religiousity

and I have found his comments on abortion (including a speech he gave) to be indicative of someone riding a fence. This article raised my eyebrows a bit more.

[Renew Deal]

71. I don't think the first argument works with the other.

Your opinion on the religious stuff is your opinion. But the article is a positive for Obama.

[Captain_Nemo]

84. Religious language is male dominated. Abortion as a political issue is inherently sexist.

as far as religion is concerned: If God is a male then....you get the picture, you're a progressive. So, in the context of abortion rights: the entire phenomenon of abortion rights as a political issue is indicative of the fact that women are still in a lower rung of our social ladder.

The two go hand in hand. In both scenarios women are lower. Obama does nothing to alter this basic fact of our society.

[Big Blue Marble]

90. And Hillary had secret prayer gatherings with right wingers.

Does that give you concern? Find out about her religious leanings.

"Hillary's Prayer: Hillary Clinton's Religion and Politics"

"For 15 years, Hillary Clinton has been part of a secretive religious group that
seeks to bring Jesus back to Capitol Hill. Is she triangulating—or living her faith?"

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillary...

[Captain_Nemo]

93. I have heard this a lot. I have to say that I have not heard her talk about her prayer group.

I have not heard her snuggle up to the religious right. When I hear it from her, like I have heard it so may times from Obama, I will come out and attack her too. iN the meantime I am going to side with the candidate that best reflects my political beliefs.

I like her statement about her feminism. I liked her statement about her choice to keep her religion private (she was asked point blank about her religious opinion and she said "I was raised to think religion is a private matter.").

I don't believe she will dismiss her feminist roots once she is in office. Obama, with his faith on his sleeve, I am not si sure.

And, I am concerned also because he has ridden on a bandwagon of being somewhat of an outsider. He says he won't be kowtowed by corporations and such. And I just don't believe it. HE will give the health care industry a "seat at the table" as he said. He voted for the energy bill that helped make Cheney rich (even Hillary didn't vote for that.)

How much change will this guy really give?

[Big Blue Marble]

97. I commend you for seriously attempting to sort out the candidate's views

on issues that are important to you. I, too, am a feminist. I think both Hillary and Obama are on record in supporting women's rights, especially
the right to choose. When the time comes, they would both support a Supreme Court nominee who would protect our right to abortions.

From the Mother Jones article that I linked above I was surprised to learn that Hillary had crossed church and state barrier in supporting
faith-based initiatives:

"Clinton has championed federal funding of faith-based social services, which she embraced years before George W. Bush did; Marci Hamilton, author of God vs. the Gavel, says that the Clintons' approach to faith-based initiatives "set the stage for Bush." Clinton has also long supported the Defense of Marriage Act, a measure that has become a purity test for any candidate wishing to avoid war with the Christian right.

Liberal rabbi Michael Lerner, whose "politics of meaning" Clinton made famous in a speech early in her White House tenure, sees the senator's ambivalence as both more and less than calculated opportunism. He believes she has genuine sympathy for liberal causes—rights for women, gays, immigrants—but often will not follow through. "There is something in her that pushes her toward caring about others, as long as there's no price to pay. But in politics, there is a price to pay."

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillary...

I think it is hard to choose. All of our candidates are compromised. No one came in on or will leave on a white horse. I, too, am uncomfortable with
some of Obama's corporate ties especially to the nuclear industry. They both are too immersed with the insurance companies and the health care industry.
Despite his flaws, I have thoughtfully chosen Obama. I believe he will attract more voters, new voters, younger voters than Hillary. He will expand the
reach of our party. He will bring a Democratic majority in Washington that will be able to dismantle much of the damage of the Bush and Reagan years and
start to address the most serious challenges of our time. Do I think he will do this perfectly? No. Do I think i will never be upset with him? Of course not.
But I still think he is the best candidate for this time in our history.

[ShortnFiery]

63. Well, recently Obama is way more pro-life than HRC by voting to BAN Cluster Munitions.

But let's get super petty? ---> it's so becoming of us all.

[Thrill]

65. I think people are so use to being lied to

That they don't know to take someone who just tells them the truth. I blame Bush for this. He has brainwashed a lot people in this country?

[Captain_Nemo]

68. I don't think I am brainwashed. I think I know the difference between someone who stands tall

in a position and another who tries to ride the fence.

[EffieBlack]

75. They have also become accustomed to simple-minded, pat approaches to complicated

issues to such a degree that they are suspicious and hostile toward anyone who actually ponders complex questions and develops positions that take more than 3 words to express.

Abortion is an extremely complex and emotional issue. I appreciate Obama's efforts to thoughtfully grapple with it and his willingness to honestly discuss his multi-dimensional thinking on it.

[Captain_Nemo]

85. I don't think responding to this article in a somewhat worrisome way and my responses to

his male dominated religious language is pat or simplistic. It think putting the two subjects together paints a picture that progressives should be looking at closely: Do we allow a candidate to cater to religious types who are hell bent in taking away our rights?

I am a progressive and I think religion in government is wrong. It fuels the anti abortion wing of our country. I think the language needs to be squelched. I don't think that thought is pat.

[ecstatic]

72. Why do you hate science

I'm as pro choice as they come, but one must acknowledge the speed of growth from conception onward. It's amazing. That's why I support time restrictions.

[Politicub]

76. Let's me take a stab at the Obama follower response

"No - you just don't get it! Though he said conception, what he really mean was something about Eisenhower, and how Kennedy had a great idea while chanting CHANGE. Don't you GET it?"

[Occam Bandage]

81. Or rather, you could attempt to read the thread.

[ripple]

77. It's true, scientifically. n/t

[JackORoses]

79. this statement has nothing to do with abortion

He's talking about stages of brain development.

Your brain must not have gone through the final stages or you could comprehend this.

[AGirl]

86. I don't support Obama, but this is silly

[Captain_Nemo]

88. Sorry you feel my concern is silly but I think language is important. And for a candidate who

rides the fence I think it is an important statement. He wants to pull the religious right into his camp - and that makes me nervous:

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal /

"I do not ask at this point that you oppose abortion, only that you speak about this issue in fair-minded words."

Fair-minded words.

So I looked at my website and found the offending words. In fairness to them, my staff had written them using standard Democratic boilerplate language to summarize my pro-choice position during the Democratic primary, at a time when some of my opponents were questioning my commitment to protect Roe v. Wade.

Re-reading the doctor's letter, though, I felt a pang of shame. It is people like him who are looking for a deeper, fuller conversation about religion in this country. They may not change their positions, but they are willing to listen and learn from those who are willing to speak in fair-minded words. Those who know of the central and awesome place that God holds in the lives of so many, and who refuse to treat faith as simply another political issue with which to score points.

So I wrote back to the doctor, and I thanked him for his advice. The next day, I circulated the email to my staff and changed the language on my website to state in clear but simple terms my pro-choice position. And that night, before I went to bed, I said a prayer of my own - a prayer that I might extend the same presumption of good faith to others that the doctor had extended to me."

[AGirl]

89. I am sorry

I’ve gotten to use this kind of talks from politician. I have never been overly excited about obama, he’s just a politician to me.

[Captain_Nemo]

92. No problem.

[Hekate]

98. I am pro-choice. I am also a mother who tended her unborn EXTREMELY carefully. What he said is true.

A woman who wants a healthy baby must care for her body as best she can because the fetus/unborn baby will be damaged by the mother's poor nutrition/starvation, environmental toxins, cigarette smoke, alcohol, prescription drugs, and illegal drugs.

A woman who wants a healthy kindergartener must ensure her baby's nutrition is optimal, and that the baby/toddler/child is not exposed to toxins.

Because, Sherlock, 85% of the brain is formed by the age of three years.

What does that have to do with being pro-choice or anti-choice? I think you are missing the point.

Hekate

[Captain_Nemo]

107. Well, my name isn't Sherlock but, let's have another look at the quote:

“studies show that from the time of conception to the..."

Obama is a candidate who straddles the fence so as not to alienate potential republican, anti-choice voters. I objected to the choice of language. Frankly, I don't care about your "unborn" anything.
I care about a candidate who will always stand up for women's rights and not be sidelined by anti-choicers.

[Tulkas]

99. This Is About Funding Pre Kindergarten Programs

It isn't about abortion.

Show me something where he addressing "rights of the unborn"

[Captain_Nemo]

108. Is it me or are the progressives getting more of a republican black and white thinking style here at

DU?

Yes, I know its about education. Look at the LANGUAGE. The words. While you're at it look at how coded language is used to not alienate voters who may be on the other side of the fence.

[Bread and Circus]

109. If you ever took an embryology course and a comparitive

embryology of the chordates course you would know Obama is right.