Obama said Reagan changed the country more, not better

[usregimechange]

Obama said that Reagan put us on a "fundamentally different path" not a better path.

and the country was ready for it because "THEY FELT LIKE _____" not they knew that it would be better but they thought it would.

Reagan tapped into what they were "feeling" because they wanted "clairity and optimism" not wise policy but a style that gave people the impression that change was needed. The wrong change is what we got but he is right Reagan changed the country in a significant and fundamental way for the worse.

Obama will change it that much too but in the opposite direction.

[Avalux]

1. Yes! Someone who gets it!

Thank you for this post. :hi:

[OneGrassRoot]

2. I'm honestly not trying to be snarky...

and I'm going to shut up about this particular aspect after this post.

But what I really want people to see (especially Obama supporters) is that many of us who are upset are NOT OBAMA HATERS. He has been my second choice.

And we're upset not because we interpreted his remarks as being approving or agreeing with Reagan, we're upset because HE USED REAGAN AS ANY TYPE OF A POSITIVE EXAMPLE WHATSOEVER. And essentially dissed Clinton in the same sentence.

It was a political calculation. Many Obama supporters feel that is wise.

There are simply many of us who feel it was very, very ill-advised that he used Reagan in the context he did AT ALL. PERIOD.

[usregimechange]

8. Reagan did change the country significantly in a very bad way

The country has not been the same since but he was not saying it was postive (when talking about the amount of change v Clinton). Yes, he was effectively deceptive in doing that as well.

[OneGrassRoot]

16. Okay, I'm obviously an idiot, but I don't understand your point. n/t

[usregimechange]

28. He was effective like Rove was but that is not the same as better

[ashling]

17. Exactly

He also equated Reagan with Lincoln'scall to the better angels of our nature.

Reagan sought out our selfish angels. There was no virtue in that

[tishaLA]

18. ...

"They both came along at times when society was on the cusp of change and they are both agents of change," Ron Reagan Jr, told the Huffington Post. "As far as Barack Obama being a similar agent of change, that remains to be seen. But what I do see him saying is that we are in a historical moment right now like the 60s and 80s. And I think he's right. We are overdue for a cultural shift."

[usregimechange]

29. Which is the correct interpretation of what he said.

[fishwax]

68. "we are overdue for a cultural shift"

pretty true.

[depakid]

3. Well, I read the quote in context and so rationalizations like this

sound ridiculous.

[usregimechange]

11. And what was the context?

[depakid]

15. Read it for yourself

and think about what he was implying, legitimizing and enabling.

[usregimechange]

32. I hope you will do the same

[ruggerson]

14. It's like bizarro world

they're all on really bad acid

[OneGrassRoot]

60. LMAO!!!!!

Oh, dude, you have NO IDEA how much I needed that.

:spray:

But it's scary shit at the same time...:scared: I've been feeling like I'm the one losing my mind today...or the vast majority of people posting are really trolls trying to start shit - and in the name of Reagan, no less! :shrug:

[sunonmars]

4. Well what i get and hear is a lot of pissed of democrats

This is really being talked about and you know the general public dont always listen to the story just the soundbite and that soundbite aint pretty.

[usregimechange]

12. something Rove knew well but I didn;t think he was working for us

[aquart]

5. Just like Obama is tapping into what people want: "optimism."

And what is he promising? Oh, right. "Hope."

Aww, the feller learned from the best.

[usregimechange]

19. He is offering progressive leadership as his ACLU rating and other

indicators indicate.

[indimuse]

30. i'm gonna pull my hair!

lol!!!!!!!! these people ARE nuts! omg..............uurr

[sam sarrha]

6. well there's the mirrors.. i'll buy it if there is Smoke...

[usregimechange]

20. I notice you did not elaborate.

[Colobo]

7. Swiftboaters don't care about the truth.

[ralbertson]

9. They can't handle the truth. [n/t]

[flyarm]

31. i believe you are being disengenious..Ronald Reagan is not liked by dems..period

maybe you were not effected by REAGAN..BUT MANY UNION PEOPLE WERE, MANY POOR PEOPLE WERE, MANY ILL PEOPLE WERE, WORKING MIDDLE CLASS WAS.. he took us to a disaster..he broke our laws with iran contra..he manipulated the Hostages..more drugs came into this country under him and destroyed many american families.

Ronald Reagan was a scum bag..that did more damage to this nation than almost anyone in my lifetime..

what Obama said watch it on video here:

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080115/VIDEO/80115026&oaso=news.rgj.com/breakingnews

and as pointed out by a fellow du'er..about his book...and Reagan and liberalism..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4087189&mesg_id=4087491

jackson_dem (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-16-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Reagan first appears in Obama's book on page 31
From that page alone and the beginning of page 32:

"That Reagan's message found such a receptive audience spoke not only to his skills as a communicator; it also spoke to the failures of liberal government, during a period of economic stagnation, to give middle-class voters any sense that it was fighting for them. For the fact was government at every level had become to cavalier about spending taxpayer money. Too often bureaucracies were oblivious to the cost of their mandates. A lot of liberal rhetoric did seem to value rights and entitlements over duties and responsibilities. Reagan may have exagerrated the sins of the welfare state, and certainly liberals were right to complain that his domestic policies tilted heavily toward elites, with corporate raiders making tidy profits throughout the eighties while unions were busted and the income for the average working stiff flatlined.

Nevertheless, by promising to side with those who worked hard, obeyed the law, cared for their families, loved their country, Reagan offered Americans a sense of common purpose that liberals seemed no longer able to muster."

Obama also talks about Reagan on pages 31-33, 36, 43, 147, 156-58, 181-82, 201, 209, 288-289, 293.




thank you jackson_dem for pointing this out..for those of us who have not followed Obama and his book.


fly

[usregimechange]

36. "liberals SEEMED no longer able to muster"

"liberal rhetoric did SEEM to value rights and entitlements over duties and responsibilities" and

Reagan "exagerrated the sins of the welfare state, and certainly liberals were right to complain that his domestic policies tilted heavily toward elites, with corporate raiders making tidy profits throughout the eighties while unions were busted and the income for the average working stiff flatlined."

He is right and you might have kept reading instead of doing selective opposition research.

[jackson_dem]

48. Explain this away

Pages 156-157

"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing he pie--contained a good deal of truth."

He thinks 60's and 70's Democratic liberals were wrong and Reagan "corrected" some of their errors. The question for us is what "corrections" Reagan made does Obama approve of?

[usregimechange]

54. It does contain some truth, I know how helping people in the wrong

way can hurt them. Read about the concept of enabling in addictions literature. You can help in ineffective ways but Reagans solutions made problems that were 50 times worse.

[EffieBlack]

65. Reagan was not liked by the Dems . . . so let's not ever talk about him

and attack anyone who ever mentions him or tries to intelligently analyze and understand his impact on the country.

Yes - let's just be ignorant, unexamining idiots.

[flyarm]

67. Obama wasn't merely talking about Reagan..try putting your

ignorance aside and listening to what Obama said in his interview and in context..i did just that..maybe you should as well!

from Larry Johnson's web site..two parts of Obama's interview video..go watch it..and tell me what the hell Obama is saying..i know what i heard with my own ears..i don't need anyone else translating for me!

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/

Obama Panders to Right, Throws Democrats Under the Bus »
By SusanUnPC on January 17, 2008 at 7:24 PM in Ronald Reagan, Obama, Current Affairs | 13 Comments

Obama said what? That the GOP has been the party of ideas for the last ten to fifteen years? Are you kidding me?

In one fell swoop, Obama disparages the success-filled, non-stop efforts of millions of people during the 1960s and 1970s, efforts that Matt Stoller lists vividly at Open Left blog:

Obama admires Reagan because he agrees with Reagan’s basic frame that the 1960s and 1970s were full of ‘excesses’ and that government had grown large and unaccountable.

Those excesses, of course, were feminism, the consumer rights movement, the civil rights movement, the environmental movement, and the antiwar movement. The libertarian anti-government ideology of an unaccountable large liberal government was designed by ideological conservatives to take advantage of the backlash against these ‘excesses’.

It is extremely disturbing to hear, not that Obama admires Reagan, but why he does so. Reagan was not a sunny optimist pushing dynamic entrepreneurship, but a savvy politician using a civil rights backlash to catapult conservatives to power.

I remember what I did in 1981 after Ronald Reagan became president. I spent every lunch hour in downtown Seattle gathering signatures on Sierra Club petitions demanding that President Ronald Reagan fire James Watt, his Secretary of the Interior who was ready to bulldoze and sell off those “excesses” that Obama disparages — our country’s national parks, national lands, the Endangered Specist Act, the Marine Mammal Protection Act, and on and on.

It was clear to me that President Reagan was trying to undo all the progressive gains that our nation had made in the last decades.

I felt like I was part of a desperate fight to stop us from sliding backwards.




fly ..proud retired member of APFA..my first union was destroyed by Raygun!

[EffieBlack]

74. That's rich - you instruct me to put my "ignorance aside and listen to what Obama said "

crow about how you don't "need anyone else translating" for you . . . and then paste a comment from some blogger who wrote that Obama "admires" and "agrees" with Reagan (when he said nothing of the kind) and then takes off on a screed about how she spent her time in 1981.

That's pretty funny. Thanks for the chuckle.

[flyarm]

77. excuse me you were the one who pointed to ignorance..i posted this because it had the video of the

interview..

you now are "my first" to go on ignore... in 4 years!!

fly

[tishaLA]

10. Shhhhh! Don't talk sense

Ron Reagan Jr., to his credit, gets it:

"If I understand what he was saying I can't entirely disagree with it. They both came along at times when society was on the cusp of change and they are both agents of change," Ron Reagan Jr, told the Huffington Post. "As far as Barack Obama being a similar agent of change, that remains to be seen. But what I do see him saying is that we are in a historical moment right now like the 60s and 80s. And I think he's right. We are overdue for a cultural shift."

[usregimechange]

23. Damn right, I think Rove may be advising some Dems

[Moochy]

75. Go Figure

Ron Reagan Jr likes his dad.

[Hobarticus]

13. "Swiftboaters"? eom

[jefferson_dem]

21. But...but...but...he uttered the "R" word...

Oooga booga...

:scared:

[Mass]

22. LOL, you are trying to get some reason of people who do not want to.

Good luck, but it will not matter to them. They know it and it is all political maneuvering. They are hurting their candidate and do not even realize it.

[dominickdon]

24. In fact, Obama said in 2006 that Reagan was "great" and "very successful"

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2008/01/obama_reagan_changed_direction_of_country_in_way_bill_clinton_didnt.php

But I think, when I think about great presidents, I think about those who transform how we think about ourselves as a country in fundamental ways...And, you know, there are circumstances in which, I would argue, Ronald Reagan was a very successful president, even though I did not agree with him on many issues, partly because at the end of his presidency, people, I think, said, “You know what? We can regain our greatness. Individual responsibility and personal responsibility are important.” And they transformed the culture and not simply promoted one or two particular issues.

You don't think someone is great if you just think he changed things more and not better.

[usregimechange]

25. He was effective and changed the country a lot in a very bad way

[Hobarticus]

33. He should be admired for that? eom

[sunonmars]

26. Who knew, we have a republican in the Democratic race

Looking more and more like a Rethug every day is Obama

[usregimechange]

50. With an 85% ACLU lifetime rating?

[usregimechange]

57. That pretty much ended that conversation...

[Maven]

27. Holy crap.

It gets worse and worse.

"because at the end of his presidency, people, I think, said, “You know what? We can regain our greatness. Individual responsibility and personal responsibility are important.”"

:puke:

[usregimechange]

37. That was their preception, it was mistaken.

[flyarm]

39. yeah reagan was personally responsible for getting more drugs in our homes..

and more mentally disabled people thrown to the streets..and making the poor poorer..and the middle class more suppressed..and unable to achieve the american dream..

yeah Reagan was responsible for change..god help us if we need that kind of change again..as i remember it ..i sold my home under Reagan and i had to sell it for less than it was built for..and that was in the mid west!

all while the richest were robbing this nation and our savings and loans blind!

oh and the middle class had to pay off the debts of the crooks under Reagan..

yeah..i don't think i want anyone who espouses the virtues of Reagan!.in fact i will run the other way!

been there done that..and don't want that bullshit again!

fly

[caraher]

38. The words NOT in bold make the meaning clear

"Great" here means the man had a big impact on the nation. An only in certain "circumstances" might Obama agree that Reagan was successful. He explicitly states his disagreement with much of the Reagan agenda even as he acknowledges that Reagan met with great success in implementing it and in inspiring optimism (at least some) people (and no, I'm not among them, I remember the Reagan years with disgust).

Your post is a classic example of distorting a statement by selective emphasis. But I do thank you for providing the context rather than just quoting the three words in your subject line.

[usregimechange]

42. Rove style, I wish we could just advocate for our choices based on their ideas

[jenmito]

34. 5th R. EXACTLY! Thank you.

:hi:

[robbedvoter]

35. You mean Reagan after Nixon was MORE change than Clinton after Bush?

It doesn't even make sense on these terms.
Then there are those pesky quotes in the book that are about more than change - how Raygun was smarter than them inept libruls:


"That Reagan's message found such a receptive audience spoke not only to his skills as a communicator; it also spoke to the failures of liberal government, during a period of economic stagnation, to give middle-class voters any sense that it was fighting for them. For the fact was government at every level had become to cavalier about spending taxpayer money. Too often bureaucracies were oblivious to the cost of their mandates. A lot of liberal rhetoric did seem to value rights and entitlements over duties and responsibilities. Reagan may have exagerrated the sins of the welfare state, and certainly liberals were right to complain that his domestic policies tilted heavily toward elites, with corporate raiders making tidy profits throughout the eighties while unions were busted and the income for the average working stiff flatlined.

Nevertheless, by promising to side with those who worked hard, obeyed the law, cared for their families, loved their country, Reagan offered Americans a sense of common purpose that liberals seemed no longer able to muster."

Pages 156-57

"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing he pie--contained a good deal of truth."

[usregimechange]

40. "that liberals SEEMED no longer able to muster"

[robbedvoter]

70. you didn't answer my qustion. And past tense notwithstanding, this was never true

He bought the GOP spin - that's what's wrong with the quotes - no matter what tense you use.

[amandabeech]

43. I don't dare read his book,

because then I won't be able to force that clothespin on my nose in November and pull the lever for a President Obama.

That, and the comments on FDR, are simply too much for me.

[usregimechange]

45. If you read the whole book you would likely want to vote for him

He has been consistently progressive his entire life.

[amandabeech]

49. Don't count on it.

I don't like his economic message and I don't like Gene Sperling.

I don't think that there is much coal that is clean.

I think he wants to shove us baby boomers under the bus.

I think that he has Mommy, Daddy, and Grandparent issues.

And I just do not get a good feeling about him at all, and I don't know who's behind him.

That pretty much does it for me.

[jackson_dem]

41. From his own book he makes clear he thinks Reagan corrected some of the "wrongs" of Dem liberals

Obamites act as if Obama didn't write a book a few months before he began running for the White House. Here is the worst quote:

Pages 156-157

"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing he pie--contained a good deal of truth."

He makes the argument the DLC made about the size, role of government. When people talk of expanding the pie rather than slicing it they are using smokescreens for talking about cutting back on social programs.

[ArkySue]

44. I submit that W has

had the most dramatic effect on the trajectory of America. Reagan comes in a distant second.
Wasn't the country ready for "a different direction" in 2000, and wasn't W going to "change the tone in Washington?"

..."can't get fooled again."

[usregimechange]

46. Why do you love Bush?

Kidding of course.

[stillcool]

47. OMG..you listened?

I wonder how many of us there are on this 'democratic' site, that actually listen to what 'democratic' candidates actually say?

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080115/VIDEO/80115026&oaso=news.rgj.com/breakingnews

[usregimechange]

52. It is really quite sad, I thought DUers were smarter than this...

but its the primaries.

[stillcool]

55. I've noticed that many of the

new contributors to DU, tend to do drive-bys, repeating the same thing, with the same syntax. Primaries indeed.

[Bluerthanblue]

51. ohhh, why bother with reality, people are having

so much fun twisting the truth to fan the flames.


:yourock:

[usregimechange]

53. I guess it is my leftist tendencies.

[Marie26]

56. I don't think so

In his book, he also makes a similar statement about Reagan, & it seems pretty clear that it's meant to be positive. He says that Reagan cleared out the excesses of the liberal "welfare state."

Pages 156-157

"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing the pie--contained a good deal of truth."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4100624&mesg_id=4100788

[usregimechange]

58. Again it does contain some truth as you can help people ineffectively

helping people in the wrong way hurts them. Some change was needed but what Reagan did was use his charm to completely destroy those systems.

[Marie26]

59. Well yes

But it's clear that Obama isn't saying that Reagan's change was BAD. He's saying that he thought Reagan had a valid point & perhaps a valid policy, while using classic Republican phrases like "welfare state". If I didn't know who said this, I would think it was a Republican.

[usregimechange]

61. That is not true, a very liberal author of a college welfare text

uses the term "welfare state" http://www.amazon.com/Poor-Law-Welfare-State-6th/dp/0684854716

The professor that used the book was a devote radical marxist sociologist.

[usregimechange]

62. Whose next?

[stickernation]

63. by the same token.

Y'all are saying that Obama didn't praise Reagan exactly, he was semantically just saying he was transformative. OK. By the same token, Edwards wasn't talking about Obama - he was talking about REAGAN, who thoroughly needs to be aired out as a disgusting individual. Consider this, actually, a shot across the bow at the future Repugnican nominee, whoever he may be, because no doubt he is genuflecting to Reagan on the campaign trail at this very instant.

All of us need to collectively Bronx cheer Reagan. Edwards is leading that. I understand his language was positioned to contrast with that of Obama. Still, it might have just reminded Edwards to punch Reagan in the gut for good measure. It's the Repugnicans who KEEP ON BRINGING REAGAN UP. They are the ones Edwards is more interested in outraging, not a bunch of nice Obama supporters. Also, it would be nice to see your candidate do the same. It's the right thing to do, to insult Reagan. But he has his strategists, and I'm not one of them, so whatever !!!

[usregimechange]

66. Thoughtful comments though, in keeping with our niceness.

[ZinZen]

64. I do not know why that fact is lost upon

some emotional hyper partisan backers of different candidates here. DU does not represent America and some of you think it does. Believe it not most Americans would shrug at Obama's comment and go "Feh". Most Americans are worried about the economy, war and healthcare. Not this partisan drivel.

[FredScuttle]

69. Obama's flowery evocation of "hope" and "optimism" is a cruel joke to those of us

who lived through the Reagan years.

What a fucking disaster

[ProudDad]

71. Would'a been f*ckin' nice if he'd SAID THAT! (n/t)

[AtomicKitten]

72. Of course that's what he said.

People will believe what they want to believe. That's just the way it is around here. The information is available for anyone interested in educating themselves on this flash fire de jour :eyes: , and the rest would criticize how he breathes so, no worries there.

[usregimechange]

78. Sigh, thats true

[Moochy]

73. Oh Yeahhh!

[Imagevision]

76. Obama's a trip just when you think you heard it all! - excellant Reagan piece!

I can see the repugs starting to scratch there heads and there pocketbooks...

[dempartisan23]

79. let me defend obama

i think he was trying to pick off some rep votes by talking about reagan. obama didnt modify any of his positions and he didnt say reagan policies were good. i think its a wise move on obama's part and he doesnt deserve all the criticism.

[usregimechange]

80. kick!

[usregimechange]

81. Kick for truth

[BlueStateGirl]

82. I think that is fairly obvious. Just like I think it is fairly obvious that Hillary

did not insult MLK when she said it took a president get the Civil Rights bill signed into law.


I don't like Obama's comment that the Republicans have been the party of ideas for the last 15 years. Or his opinion that Regean was lergely right about Liberal ideas. And I don't like that it seems prominent Hillary supporters can't help but throw out Obama's drug use.

I just feel like we, as party , should be better than this.


Jesus, I hate primary season.