"One of the things that I've always said is that abortion is a deeply moral issue.

[IndianaJones]

And those who would deny that there is a moral component to it I think are wrong. The reason that I make a decision to support the choice position is not because I don't think it's a moral issue but because I trust women to make a prayerful decision about this issue."

Obama

[Bicoastal]

1. How awful and damning THAT one.

Fuck Obama for being Pro-Choice AND for recognizing the issue is a morally complex one!

[IndianaJones]

3. I wonder what the right and wrong component of it is in his mind. nt.

[Bicoastal]

8. I can't believe we're criticizing Obama for what might be "in his mind" nt

[Radical Activist]

13. How dare he trust women to make their own decisions about their bodies!

Its the most sexist thing I've ever heard.

[Joe the Revelator]

100. self delete.

[eridani]

101. Yes it is damning.

Making public statements that abortion is a morally complex issue is a dogwhistle accusation that pro-choice advocates don't agree with that position, which is untrue. However, we do believe that the only relevant part of the abortion debate is WHOSE decision it is, not what kind of decision it is.

[annie1]

2. "As a Christian, to remain open to the possibility....

that I cannot claim infallibility in my support of abortion rights."

Obama.

i really don't like that. i really don't. :(

[IndianaJones]

5. Maybe he'll change his mind...like Reagan. nt.

[redqueen]

6. Yeesh... that's worse than the one in the OP.

I hope it's got some context to make it not seem so bad... cause jeez.

[IndianaJones]

9. the entire line is worse. it contains his religious objection to gay marriage. nt.

[redqueen]

12. Oh PLEASE say you're joking!

:banghead:

[IndianaJones]

15. I'll find the quote and post it. nt.

[tishaLA]

7. Presumably you DO like that

he's been infallibly in favor of abortion rights, though?

[Bluerthanblue]

31. what the hell is wrong with this?

If you are a 'christian'- he is saying that what he personally may believe about abortion is his own business- (IOW I'm NOT 'God')

If you aren't a "christian"- then what does what he is saying "as a christian" matter to you??

Am I reading your quote incorrectly?

Because I sure don't understand what everyone is so inflamed about.

Maybe some would rather he just lie for the sake of getting elected, and say something people want to hear.

I'd rather deal with what people really think, even if I don't agree with it.

(sorry to rant at you)

[mopinko]

71. a 100% pro-choice voting record doesn't count, i guess.

:wtf: is the matter with you people?

[Baconfoot]

78. I'll explain: If the reason you support choice is that woman can be trusted to pray...

I'll explain:
There are two possibilities I'd like to consider: 1) That this is BO's sincere position and why he supports pro-choice legislation. 2) That he was just pandering.

So Senator Obama I put it to you thus,

Possibility 1:
If the reason you support choice is that women can be trusted to pray and make the right choice then:
a) Your basis for advocating pro-choice LEGISLATION is not a legal one - it's a religious one.
b) You might select candidates for the Supreme Court who share your a-legal, a-constitutional justification for pro-choice legislation.
c) You risk undermining even further the constitutional basis of the right-to-choose.
d) You can provide no justification which you believe for why atheists, agnostics who don't pray, and individuals whose religions prohibit direct prayer to God either at all or on this specific issue also have the right to choice.
e) Your justifications of your legal positions are biased against atheists, some types of agnostics, and others.

Possibility 2:
If you just say that your pro-choice position is grounded in the belief that women can be trusted to pray then:
a) You are lying.
b) You are lying in a way that undermines the constitutional basis of the right to choose.
c) You are lying in a way that undermines the constitutional basis of the right to choose in a bid to become the most powerful leader in the free world.

I don't require that someone believe that the constitution contains a right to privacy but I do require that you either find a constitutionally protected right that supports the right to choose or have the position that there should be an amendment to the constitution protecting it. And I also require sound legal arguments for positions on what laws should be enacted from a lawyer running for President of the United States.

[rodeodance]

84. I think he was trying to show how difficult for him but I do not think he implying

moral guilt for anyone else--except prob. for him self.

[trumad]

4. There's goes that religion aspect of it.....

ugg.... can't these fuckers leave religion out of it just once?

[hayu_lol]

17. Perhaps Obama should run as Shuckabee's VP...

Obama looked pretty good early on in this campaign. He lost much of the glitter when he dived headfirst back into his fundie 'old time' religion.

This stand on choice is as close to a flip flop as he could come without actually flip flopping.

And then there is all his comments about St Reagan The Least.

Where the heck is this guy, Obama, coming from?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. umm...

I think this particular quote comes from a conversation where they were particularly talking about religion.

[Bluerthanblue]

43. shhh.... don't bring 'context' into it- ! That only

makes the outrage harder to explain.


:shrug:


What is wrong with us??????

[Baconfoot]

90. If Obama had creatively cited the 2nd amendment as a constitutional basis for choice I'd agree

If Obama had creatively cited the 2nd amendment as a constitutional basis for the right to choose I'd agree somewhat that the fact that the context was "religion" would make a difference to evaluating the statement. Instead, he claimed that his basis for supporting choice was that women can be trusted to make prayerful decisions. That's just not a constitutionally or legally relevant reason to support pro-choice legislation.

I want a President who understands the difference between:
a) I believe X is correct because Y and
b) I support pro-X (or anti-X) legislation because Y.
And I also want a President who understands that his public role has more to do with b) than with a).

[Hippo_Tron]

102. Sure, when voters stop caring about religion

Until then, politicians would be foolish not to talk about religion.

[polichick]

10. When he said this I thought he was letting the other side know...

...that Democrats aren't cold-hearted about this issue, but that he wasn't changing his mind about choice.

Do you think he's conning us??

[Radical Activist]

16. He has always been consistently pro-choice

for over a decade in public office. He hasn't said anything suggesting he ever thought of being anything else.

[polichick]

29. So what was he doing when he said this...

What I concluded ~ or something else??

[Radical Activist]

48. He was on a Christian TV show.

He says he trusts women to make their own decisions about their bodies. That sounds like a solid pro choice statement to me.

[puebloknot]

93. The problem is that he said he trusts women to make a "prayerful" decision.

We women who are all grown up can make our decisions without reference to prayer, thank you very much.

My big concern about Obama is his closeness to the evangelical camp. We've seen the separation of church and state watered down way too much already. The National Prayer Breakfast (who could be against prayer, you might say), and The Fellowship are distinctly in opposition to that principle, and I want a candidate who will stand against theocracy in all its myriad forms. JFK practiced his Catholicism as a private matter. I can't say I feel comfortable with Obama to do that -- or Hillary, either, for that matter.

[DURHAM D]

11. Is this correct?

Did you just make that up? "...a deeply moral issue"? What the f**k.

Obama is a monster in sheep's clothing.

[Bicoastal]

14. You think abortion ISN'T a morally complex issue? Not even Hillary denies that.

Or did you forget your :sarcasm:? Can't tell anymore.

[IndianaJones]

18. what do the women need to pray about? nt.

[Bicoastal]

21. Are you a woman? nt

[IndianaJones]

26. no...should I pray? nt.

[Bicoastal]

30. If a woman did before deciding on an abortion, would you be opposed to that? nt

[IndianaJones]

36. no, but I wouldn't tell women I am pro-choice because I trust them to pray before making..

a deeply moral decision.

[Bicoastal]

42. And that's what Obama said up top?

That "you better pray, or else no abortion for you?"

This spin is ridiculous. I don't care what his rationale is behind his being in favor of abortion rights, I'm just glad he is. His 100 rating from NARAL speaks to that.

[IndianaJones]

45. no..he is more condescending than that. he trusts them...

at least when he's on CBN.

[Bicoastal]

50. Look, if he's good enough for NARAL, it's good enough for me.

And I think you're going way overboard tearing apart Obama quotations, looking for smear.

Find some anti-choice legislation he's been a part of--then come back to me.

[tishaLA]

51. trusting a woman is now condescension? WTF?

[rodeodance]

85. yes. he implies or assumes a women should pray. No a smart move.

[DURHAM D]

20. Its a personal issue.

Not a moral issue.

[Bicoastal]

24. Isn't that the same thing? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. are "moral" and "personal" dichotomously opposed?

Like "sense" and "this thread?"

[Scout]

57. really, it's not that complex.

it's my uterus.

what else matters?

[Bicoastal]

61. But is your decision itself not a complex one?

Nobody I ever knew decided to keep or abort in the space of 5 seconds flat.

[Scout]

66. well, it would probably take more than 5 seconds

but it is not a complex decision.

Do i want to be pregnant and then give birth?

or

Do i not want to be pregnant and then give birth?


i've only got two choices ... give birth, or don't ... not too difficult.

[Bicoastal]

67. Are you speaking for all women here? nt

[Scout]

68. of course not, why would you think that?

are you speaking for anyone besides yourself?

pregnant women have only two choices ... give birth, or terminate the pregnancy. what is so complex about that? women are not simple minded, nor do we all HAVE to pray about our decisions.

[Bicoastal]

73. If a woman prayed before deciding to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman prayed before deciding NOT to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman took 5 minutes to decide to get an abortion, I wouldn't object

If a woman took 5 minutes to decide NOT to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman took a month to decide to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman took a month to decide NOT to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman felt this was an easy decision, I wouldn't object.

If a woman felt this was an impossibly difficult and complex decision, I wouldn't object.

In short, a woman's decision is a woman's decision is a woman's decision, and her final conclusion is the right one, whatver side of the fence she lands on. THAT'S the trust Obama is talking about. But I think we have to acknowledge that as each woman is different, each decision in this situation will be different. Therein the complexity lies.

[CTyankee]

39. Women are moral agents. For too long the male hierarchy has told them

what they should do to be moral. Saying this gives the agency to women; they have the capacity and the right to make up their own minds about whether abortion is moral and if so, can be morally defended. To take away the moral issue is to deny moral agency to women.

[Bluerthanblue]

46. geez, that's

a very good reply.

And one I hadn't considered.

thank you.

[CTyankee]

103. your welcome, but it isn't my original thought. However, we should use that "frame"

because it shuts up lots of RW religious loonery...

[lisa58]

19. Will you stop...

...abortion IS a very difficult issue for lots of people and it should be between a woman, her doctor and her family (if she wants).

My VERY Catholic mother who had seven children, was the one that taught me that it should have never entered politics - and unfortunately it did. Now we have to live with that.

[DURHAM D]

32. You have missed the point.

It is a difficult decision - but not a moral one unless you personally choose to make that part of your decision making.

[lisa58]

37. I agree...

...but lots of people make choices on their idea of morality and you have to be their president too.

[DURHAM D]

49. Huh? "you have to be their president too"

Does that mean you think the President should be the First Preacher or First Priest?

[lisa58]

60. are you kidding?

do you really think that the only people that live in this country are people that think like you or at least should?

[DURHAM D]

74. You have completely lost me.

You are the one suggesting how others (women) should make choices. Bring to your decision what is yours and don't tell others what they must include in their thought processes. It is not your place (nor mine) to suggest the parameters.

[lisa58]

79. Okay...

...I'll try one more time.

Abortion should not be a political issue.

It is.

Candidates have to deal with it on both sides of the asile.

A President is a president of both sides of the asile and those who do not take sides.

The fact that a women prays or doesn't is no ones business and is not a requirement to decision-making, but some women do.

Obama acknowledged that he thinks it's a moral issue.

So what?

[DURHAM D]

95. The right to an abortion is the law of the land.

Thus it ceased to be a "moral" issue.

If you are personally against it on moral grounds than don't have one. The law allows that decision also.

When a candidate for federal offices states that it should be viewed as a moral issue he has joined in with the Republicans in trying to make it into a political issue.

Its the law. Leave it that way.

[lisa58]

96. I want it left that way...

...believe me, but there are plenty of people who don't.

[Horse with no Name]

44. Sometimes abortion is a moral choice

Sometimes it is an economic choice, sometimes it is a personal choice, sometimes it is a family planning choice, sometimes it is a divorce choice...there are ALL kinds of reasons that women get abortions and it isn't always about morals.
If a praying woman wants to pray before making this decision, then by all means, PRAY.
But to SUGGEST that a woman should PRAY before making this decision is out of bounds in all sorts of ways and those that apologize for it are simply partisan apologists.

[DURHAM D]

53. I don't think you intended to respond to my post

We are in agreement.

You may want to repost to your intended target.

[Horse with no Name]

56. Yes I did.

It was a safe place to insert this.:hug:

[FiveGoodMen]

70. I don't mind if Obama feels that way, but I want a secular government (as the constitution demands)

and bringing prayer up on the campaign trail is a major red flag that this guy keeps waving.

[DURHAM D]

76. Yep ! n/t

[sufrommich]

89. I agree.Those few words "preaching prayer" to women

considering our personal decisions regarding the right to choose have bugged the hell out of me since I first heard them.Yuck.

[shaniqua6392]

23. He does make me a bit nervous.

Add this to his Reagan comments and I am really nervous. We could all be taken for the ride of our lives. Some things he says sound very "Republican".

[Bicoastal]

27. ...when spun in the right direction, that is.

[redqueen]

33. Don't miss this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4096538&mesg_id=4096866

[Barack_America]

40. You should have a look at what Planned Parenthood thinks of him...

He was the go-to guy for Planned Parenthood in IL. If they trust him enough to push their legislative agenda, shouldn't you?

[terisan]

28. Prayerful? If you don't consult someone's idea of god, what then? Too many loophole statements.

[FredScuttle]

34. Obama thinks women should be "prayerful" about it

and he's got just the right guy to pray with you




Just the right guy because you know he won't be chasing tail!

[Bicoastal]

35. This guy is Obama's pastor all of a sudden? nt

[FredScuttle]

47. He's Obama's go-to-guy in South Carolina

when he was trailing Clinton badly among black voters in South Carolina, who did Obama turn to in his moment of need? Pastor Donnie, The "Ex-Gay" Gospel Superstar. Pastor Donnie brought in the bigot/moron crowd and brought them to their feat with an impromptu rant in which he declared "God delivered me from homosexuality"

And the best part? Saint Obama has shown incredible resolve and backbone and refused to apologize to all the sissies, faggots, dykes, peter-pokers and whiny crybabies. That a way, BH! :sarcasm:

[Bicoastal]

54. Did you miss his post-Donnie interview with the Advocate or something?

You know, the one where the interviewee ended the article by praising his judgement?

Or are you just refusing to look at it?

[FredScuttle]

63. Oh, you mean the interview where Obama lied about not vetting McClurkin

Obama flat out lied by saying that McClurkin "was not vetted". That fool was warned, a full week before the concert, that he was hiring an "ex-gay" clown who had uttered all sorts of hateful invective against the LGBT community and he did nothing. He let that bigot get on his stage and spew homophobic filth to a receptive crowd of bigots and morons and has not once apologized for it.

[Barack_America]

38. Your posts contain no substance, just cherry-picked quotes...

with zero analysis or insight. I, for one, am done.

[IndianaJones]

41. thanks for the kick. nt.

[Scout]

52. does he trust me if i don't pray about it?

"I trust women to make a prayerful decision about this issue"

how will he know if we pray about it? why should he care if we pray about it? why would we have to involve god, prayer, at all?

:puke:

[IndianaJones]

55. because its deeply moral, and guidance from above is needed. nt.

[Bicoastal]

58. I still can't believe your entire argument is that there is NO moral component...

...to abortion one way or the other.

But clearly, as a man, you completely understand these things.

(PS--Yes, I'm a man, but I don't *pretend* to tell women what is and isn't the right thing for a woman to do before she has one. Like Obama, I TRUST them to make the morally, personally complex decision that's the right one for them and for the fetus--which may turn out to be yes or no.)

[FredScuttle]

64. You don't "pretend" to tell women what is or isn't moral?

You just did, man!!!

[Bicoastal]

65. Put up or shut up. nt

[FredScuttle]

72. That makes virtually no sense at all

what am I putting up?

[Bicoastal]

75. Put up where I contradict myself--sorry if I wasn't any clearer the first time. nt

[DURHAM D]

77. AMEN BROTHER, AMEN.

[Horse with no Name]

81. I'm a woman and I am telling you

that it is NOT a moral choice unless the woman having it CHOOSES to make it a moral choice. Period.
She doesn't fucking need YOURS or anyone else's permission.
Tell me something. Is having a tumor cut out of your body a MORAL choice? Of course it isn't. It is an unwanted mass of tissue that can cause you harm. There is nothing MORAL about having it removed since having tumors removed is a LEGAL medical procedure.

[IndianaJones]

82. you have stated this better than I ever could have. nt.

[Bicoastal]

83. "NOT a moral choice unless the woman having it CHOOSES to make it a moral choice."

Now you're proving MY point.

If a woman prayed before deciding to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman prayed before deciding NOT to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman took 5 minutes to decide to get an abortion, I wouldn't object

If a woman took 5 minutes to decide NOT to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman took a month to decide to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman took a month to decide NOT to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman felt this was an easy decision, I wouldn't object.

If a woman felt this was an impossibly difficult and complex decision, I wouldn't object.

In short, a woman's decision is a woman's decision is a woman's decision, and her final conclusion is the right one, whatver side of the fence she lands on. THAT'S the trust Obama is talking about. But I think we have to acknowledge that as each woman is different, each decision in this situation will be different. Therein the complexity lies.

[Horse with no Name]

86. Carry it to the next dimension

MANY women choose NOT to make it about morals. They make it about finances, relationships, personal situations.
Let me clue you in Sparky...not every woman is as attached to clump of tissue in her body as the MEN who want to control her every thought and action are. Hence..you LOSE the morals argument.

[Bicoastal]

88. I expanded on my previous post with something I wrote earlier. Look at it again.

It's a moral issue. It's a financial issue. It's a social issue It's a personal issue. And it's also none of those things.

It's different things to every woman. Obama feels it's almost always moral issue, and on that point we disagree...but the overall issue we don't disagree. Let every women make the decisions and let us outsider be ok with how she chooses to frame them. TRUST--that's the key to Obama's quote, and the key to the entire thread. Anti-abortion laws are for people who don't trust women. He clearly does, and I trust him when he says that, and so does the NARAL.

Good enough for me.

[Horse with no Name]

87. Nice edit job.

Now you've proved MY point.
Edited to add:
You do know that it is in poor taste to not say WHY you edited?

[Bicoastal]

91. I can't help it if you keep beating me to the punch.

I've been a member for a year, and up until now, I haven't been called out on that ON EDIT rule. OK, I'll do that from now on.

I haven't deleted anything I previously wrote, and that "edit job" is something I wrote earlier on this thread I realized later would be applicable. Sorry.

[Baconfoot]

92. Trusting someone to make a choice and trusting them to make a "prayerful" choice are not the same.

I don't think anybody is saying they object to prayer. Instead they are worried that Obama's true position may be something more like this:

If a woman prayed before deciding to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman prayed before deciding NOT to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman took 5 minutes to decide to get an abortion, I would object

If a woman took 5 minutes to decide NOT to get an abortion, I would object.

If a woman took a month to decide to get an abortion, I might object if it wasn't a prayerful decision.

If a woman took a month to decide NOT to get an abortion, I wouldn't object.

If a woman felt this was an easy decision, I might object.

If a woman felt this was an impossibly difficult and complex decision, I wouldn't object.

and moreover I think they are worried that the grounds for this possible opinion might inappropriately spill over into his-lawmaking or lack-thereof.

[Bicoastal]

94. Well, I trust his legislation and the NARAL. nt

[Berry Cool]

97. Actually, I would say there's a LOT moral about having it removed.

If removing the tumor will save your life, that would seem like the morally right way to go, besides being legal.

But I suspect that's not the point you're trying to make.

[Scout]

59. you're kidding, right? n/t

[IndianaJones]

69. yes. nt.

[cali]

62. I hate that statement and I don't like that Obama went to the 700

club and said it, but I don't expect my candidate to be perfect and he's totally pro-choice.

[bigwillq]

80. Obama needs to stop using the religion theme.

He sounds like a repuke.

[Gloria]

98. What if I don't pray but just make a rational decision based on my

situation and emotional status?

Oh, I'm so glad he TRUSTS me to make a decision :sarcasm:

I think he is insufferable.

[cloudythescribbler]

99. As someone STRONGLY pro-choice I see nothing wrong with Obama's statement here

[donsu]

104. puke on that 'prayerful decision' stuff Obama

the more he opens his mouth, the more I hope he doesn't win.

he trusts prayerful women. but not unprayerful women?

some one should wise him up.