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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:22 AM
Original message
Bill Clinton's fairy tale comment and racism
Hi everyone,

I've been reading the forums and I can see that things are looking very racially charged at the moment, and it's not my intention to add to the fire. I am just curious about something and am looking for more information. I read in an article today that said many African Americans were insulted by Bill Clinton's comment about Obama's campaign being a fairy tale, seeing it as racist. The article didn't explain the racial connotations of Clinton's comment so I was wondering what those connotations were. I figured you guys would be the best place to go to get a thorough explanation. Again, I'm not trying to incite argument, I'm just looking for a factual explanation of why people felt insulted. Thanks a lot and good luck to all the candidates. :)
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. BULLSHIT...Flamebait post extraordinaire
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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. No, it's really not
But if you think it will create a flame war then please explain to me in a private message and I'll delete this post. I honestly don't understand what the racial connotations are and am just looking for explanation.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. There are no racial connotations
The purpose is to make the campaign ugly. That's it. Unfortunately, many Obama supporters have taken the bait.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. my, a little touchy today, aren't you?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Good one!
:thumbsup:
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. Good luck getting an honest answer from the Obama supporters.
...
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. Ahem.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
7. For what it's worth
Edited on Mon Jan-14-08 01:46 AM by Blue_In_AK
I didn't see it as being particularly racist in the context it was given, either. Bill could just as easily have said John Edwards' positions were fairy tales if he believed that they were, and nobody would have said a thing. I don't think Bill ever intended to imply that Barack's quest for the presidency was a fairy tale.

I can more easily see how Hillary's comparison of Martin Luther King, Jr. and LBJ might seem racist to some, although I don't really think that was her intention. I think she was drawing a distinction between the "dreamers" and the "doers" and, honestly, looking at everything objectively (something that seems to be lacking around here these days), she had a point. MLK did indeed have a grand vision, something to strive for, but he alone could not have gotten civil rights legislation passed without a strong push from whoever was in the White House. MLK was not an elected official, so it was up to the president and congress to do what was morally right.



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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Thanks
Not being American, I thought that perhaps I was missing out on some obvious cultural racial link between fairy tales and African Americans. I appreciate your taking the time to respond. :)
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Oh, you're welcome.
I think I was editing to add to my last paragraph while you were thanking me, so there's a little more historical perspective there, as well.

I never thought I'd be an apologist for the Clintons, but I do think some people have taken this a little over the top.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
8. First off, I'm not an Obama supporter
Second, I definitely don't support Hillary.

I've watched the interview in question. Bill Clinton did not, in any way, call the Obama campaign for President a "fairy tale".

I don't see a racial component there (but then I'm white or near white - about a quarter Native American - so I might not see it).

OTOH, I have seen Hillary supporters in here declare the "shuck and jive" remark by Hillary supporter Cuomo as "not racial at all"... and I beg to differ. It has always been a racial remark and remains so today.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I agree.
"Shuck and jive" is not cool. Different words could have been chosen to say the same thing and not been as offensive.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
12. An honest answer from an Obama supporter.
So this week there have been several comments that have come from either the Clintons themselves, their campaign and their political supporters. I'll try and catalog them for you:

1). The Bill Clinton "fairy tale" remark. This remark was made during a speech about Obama's position on the Iraq war. Bill Clinton characterized Obama's position that he has always been against the Iraq war as a "fairy tale". So there probably wasn't much racial-motivation behind that comment. But it should be noted that Clinton has also recently referred to Obama, a 46-year old man, as a "kid".

2). The Hillary Clinton "MLK" remark. So you may have heard that Obama has been likened to have the charisma of both MLK and JFK. Obama's charisma and "likability" is generally considered to be a problem for Clinton. You may have heard Clinton refer to Obama's perceived lack of experience, hope-mongering, and preaching in attempts to downplay his likability amongst voters. She also wanted to downplay his comparison to MLK and, in doing so, said something to the effect that "MLK got the ball rolling on civil rights, but it was President Johnson who actually changed laws". A lot of people wondered if this was a slight against MLK that downplayed his contributions to the civil rights movement.

3). The Andrew Cuomo "Shuck n' Jive" remark. In a radio interview, NY Attorney General and Clinton supporter, Andrew Cuomo, was interviewed about the NH primary process. In his remark about what candidates need to do to win such a primary, he said that "You can't shuck n' jive at a press conference". "Shuck n' jive" is a predominantly black expression that originated during the days of slavery to mean essentially, getting away with something while actually fooling around. Some people thought this was an interesting choice of words to describe an election in which a black candidate is running.

4). The nameless Clinton advisor and the "imaginary hip black friend" remark. In an interview with the UK magazine, The Guardian, a nameless Clinton advisor suggested that Obama is not a candidate for people serious about the issues, but that if what you were really looking for in a candidate was an "imaginary hip black friend", then it would be okay to vote for him.

For each of these comments, the media, trying to stir up controversy and make this election more lucrative for them, picked up these comments and spread them widely, often disregarding the context in which they were stated. Now, taken alone, most of these comments could be perceived to be rather innocuous. However, taken together, many people started to wonder if it really could be a coincidence that so many potentially questionable comments could be coming from the Clinton campaign in such a short time span. And if it wasn't a coincidence, then what did that mean? Were they trying to say something about black voters? Were they trying to make Obama respond, assuming that the more he talks about race, the more he angers white voters? And that Hillary defending herself against such "planted" comments would get the support of white voters? Or was this the media just trying to stir shit up because, well, that's what the media does.

Really, that's up to you to decide for yourself. But, as an Obama supporter, I feel that it is my duty to tell you that Obama has had nothing to say about these comments. Only today he made a comment to make sure everyone knows that his campaign is not baiting the media to publicize this issue. A spokeswoman also released a statement saying something to the effect that, "yes, some people in the community are starting to wonder if this could possibly be a coincidence". And finally, a memo was released by the Obama campaign today that describes the background of the comments, just as I have done for you. However, this memo did not encourage Obama campaigners to talk about the comments at all. It was an FYI-type memo just to keep them informed. And that's it as far as the Obama campaigns involvement in this matter.

I hope this has been helpful for you. I'd be happy to answer any questions.
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LiberteToujours Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thanks for the great synopsis!
I'm sorry to see how much pain this campaign is causing. If there can be a positive in it, hopefully the eventual winner will emerge better equipped to take on the GOP candidate.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. If you want some positive, check this video out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmUUYo9o9eg

Disclaimer: It's an Obama campaign video, but the message is really positive. It's a must see, no matter who you're supporting. I'll watch this every once in a while when things get really nasty around here.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Very nice!
And fair. Pretty much what I concluded by viewing the interviews myself (or reading a transcript).

However, to my mind, the "shuck and jive" comment was racial in nature, but maybe that's just how I was raised (my mom would have spanked me if I had said it).
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. You know, that's my experience too, but...
Some people claim that they say it without any racist intent so....

And I'd also like to give the benefit of the doubt to Cuomo.

And, part of me doesn't want to admit that a Democrat would say such a thing about another Democrat. It's just too depressing.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-14-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Thank you Kristi for that tempered post
I personally believe it's a joke to think this isn't planned, especially since there are several more instances than what you've got there. But it is also true that the campaign has taken a measured position and not accused the Clinton campaign of anything.
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