Is the GLBT community ENTITLED to equal rights or should they be GIVEN them by straight people?

[ruggerson]

Poll question: Is the GLBT community ENTITLED to equal rights or should they be GIVEN them by straight people?

And do you understand the very powerful difference between the two frames?

[terrya]

1. We are entitled to equal rights.

I was going to try to explain it, but I don't think I need to. We are entitled to equal rights. Period.

[Blue-Jay]

245. Yep.

Rights are not "given" to anybody. We can only work to eradicate the suppression of rights.

[maddiejoan]

2. It's my understanding

that Obama wishes to give us a "basic set of rights", sort of a starter kit --ya know--to see if we can handle the real thing.

[Kucinich4America]

6. So Dennis Kucinich can count on your vote then?

Because he believes in full equality. And Hillary & the DLC believe in the Indefensible Marriage Act.

[maddiejoan]

16. Dennis gets donation money from me

so he can keep delivering his message. Hillary does not get any money from me.

Depending on how close the race is in NY between Hillary and Obama, either Hillary or Dennis will get my vote.

and Hillary has already stated that she will repeal sections 2 & 3 of DOMA.

[Kucinich4America]

166. And Bill stated he would do away with discrimination in the military.

The Clintons and the DLC (as if there were a difference) compromised on LGBT rights last time. Why would you give them another chance, and expect any different? Especially when Hillary is running considerably to the right of where she was in 1992.

[cloudythescribbler]

This is PURE CANARD nt

[Dhalgren]

3. Every American is born with equal rights under our Constitution.

Period.

[Sparkly]

4. The second frame is why anti-rights people want to call them "special rights."

Of course they are not "special rights." They're equal rights under the law.

[Kucinich4America]

10. It's all based on the "being gay is a choice" thing.

They would tell you that everybody has equal rights, because everyone's born straight, and nobody needs "special" rights because they "choose" a "deviant lifestyle".

And then they go out to their barns and visit the sheep.

[Sparkly]

27. I think those who say it's a choice are gay or bi themselves.

They can imagine choosing their sexual orientation. Personally, I can't imagine choosing mine.

[Chovexani]

49. What?

:wtf:

[bicentennial_baby]

80. I second that...

:wtf:

[Sparkly]

236. They can imagine themselves making a choice to "be gay" (have a gay "lifestyle")

They believe it's just a choice. Evidently, they made a choice not to "live a gay lifestyle" and figure others can do the same. They could make the opposite choice, but only "morality" holds them back.

I don't think they could believe it's something they themselves could choose, unless they were closet bi/gay.

[Chovexani]

239. I beg to differ

Someone who believes gay is a "lifestyle" and not a life would believe it's a choice. And most of those people are straight, because society never forces straight people to think about their orientation--it's a given.

Please stop trying to say homophobes are all closet LGBT, it's insulting.

[Sparkly]

241. Sorry.

I don't think all homophobes are closet LGBT. I agree that those who talk about a "lifestyle" believe it's a choice, but I don't see how a straight person could believe that. It seems one would have to be able to imagine themselves making that choice.

I certainly didn't mean to insult, and apologize if I did.

[Marrah_G]

5. It's sad that this is even a question

I'm grateful I am raising my children in MA. They can be who they are.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kucinich4America]

11. And we got a live one, folks....

Pizza delivery in 30 minutes or less?

[IndianaJones]

13. losers like you. nt.

[Bluebear]

14. 2 posts in two years and you make THIS one your third?

[thebrandnewcrow]

17. Alright so...

So we got: pizza delivery times
losers like me
uhhh, what else is preventing a person from being who they are in the other states?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebrandnewcrow]

23. Why am I a homophobe for asking a question?

Because they don't have an answer.

[Marrah_G]

26. Perhaps because the answer seems so obvious to those of us here

So answer this for me.

How do you feel about gay marriage?

How do you feel about GLBT discrimination in America?

[thebrandnewcrow]

30. Some ANSWERS

Q. How do you feel about gay marriage?

A. Not interested in one, thanks.

Q. How do you feel about GLBT discrimination in America?

A. I think you left out a sexual orientation in GLBT. Isn't that discrimination? How I feel about it: I think it's overrated. Religion is a much more discrimated segment of society and it qualifies for protected-class status in the constitution.

[Marrah_G]

32. Nice Dodge! This is a MUST read !

Do you think Gay- Lesbian- Bisexual and Transgender people have the same right to Marriage as everyone else?

Your views on religion being more discriminated against them Homosexuality is extremely telling.

[thebrandnewcrow]

34. More ANSWERS

Do you think Gay- Lesbian- Bisexual and Transgender people have the same right to Marriage as everyone else?

Yes. They have the same rights as everyone else.

Do you think Gay- Lesbian- Bisexual and Transgender people have the same rights and protection from discrimination as everyone else in America?

Yes, I think that the Constitution says that there must be equal protection under the law.

[Marrah_G]

38. We agree on those points then

And in agreeing with those points my statement about MA should make more sense.

MA is far more accepting and gives the GLBT community far more rights then anywhere else.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[libnnc]

44. Assclowns need rights too

You represent your constituency very well.

[thebrandnewcrow]

45. I think you are right

Very good. I think assclowns need protected-class status in the Constitution as well.

After all, the poor assclowns never get treated fairly.

End Sarcasm.

[thebrandnewcrow]

46. So in conclusion, the rights being denied in other states are...

Pizza Delivery Times and assclowns like me.

[Left Brain]

173. self-delete, sorry

posted in wrong forum

[Marrah_G]

54. Because we already have those rights

[redwitch]

64. go away, you sad, sorry little person.

go away please. look, there's a very nice rock over there! No, over there, go ahead, crawl under and I'll tuck you in, there, isn't that cozy?
(drops a very large boulder on it's pointy little head)

[eShirl]

84. What rights do you feel straights are being denied?

I wasn't aware we were excluded from any rights, so please, enlighten me.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eShirl]

88. and you are denied the right to do these things because you are straight?

You've got some great, well-thought-out arguments!
:sarcasm:

bye

[SeattleGirl]

107. What a thoughtful argument you're making -- NOT.

Lemme guess -- if we were all in the same room, you'd go with page one of the Repuke Handbook: Yell at the top of your lungs, talk over everyone, be rude, inconsiderate, etc., and thus, your illogical logic will make sense. Sheesh.

[hisownpetard]

128. Here! Answers to your 3 comments, in CAPS. Any questions?

I can't go out and marry some guy. - WELL, YEAH, THAT'S A SHAME

I can't go out and marry some woman that says "no". - YOU COULD, IF YOU WERE WARREN JEFFS!

I can't go out and marry my sister. - WHY NOT? THAT'S WHAT YOUR FATHER DID!

!:hide:

[NMMNG]

137. You can't marry your sister?

What are you talking about? I saw the wedding photos.

[TZ]

BWAHHAAHA!

Hi Buffy! I was wondering if you find this POS thread. Unbelievable.

[NMMNG]

151. The thread is fine

Some of the...participants, however. :crazy:

[Marrah_G]

148. omg-

[Kucinich4America]

Were his sheep the bridesmaids?

I'm guessing the Rottie was "best man"

[NMMNG]

201. More like the concubines

:evilgrin:

[Chovexani]

226. Marry me, Buffy

:yourock:

[NMMNG]

232. I'm flattered,

But I'm very happily taken.


Thanks though. :hi:

[Chovexani]

237. But "us people" are so promiscuous

Didn't you hear him? :rofl:

[NMMNG]

242. Yeah, I heard

:eyes:

[noamnety]

231. Sometimes these posts are unintentionally revealing

"I can't go out and marry some woman that says "no"."

This is an excellent glimpse into the mindset that leads someone into being a bigot - if I were struggling to show how my own rights were being violated, it would never occur to me to cite as an example that I'm not allowed to oppress others against their will.

I think it's consistent with the straight white male privilege point of view (which not all straight white men share, thankfully) that it's a violation of their rights to allow others to share their privilege. It's their view that it's the natural order of things for them to be a privileged class, and an affront to them to suggest another way.

I saw that in one of the RW guys who wrote on his blog about fantasizing about shooting a couple of us DU women - his writing talked about how it should be a male right to rape women, and not that big of a deal for women to just suck it up and deal with it like they would a stubbed toe. It's easy for me to see the similarities - a sense of outrage at the injustice of not being allowed to force yourself on a woman, either in a specific sexual act, or through forced marriages, that's not so different from denying GLBT people rights over their own bodies and destinies.

It's not a big surprise when a bigot feels like they should have special god-like privileges to grant or deny rights to other groups of people, going back to the point of the thread. But it is a surprise when they state it so explicitly, without any sense of shame or embarrassment.

[NMMNG]

234. I'm not surprised at all

It's their very nature as RW asshats that makes them think nothing of the fact that they should maintain more rights than others and parse them out to "the lower class" like dog treats. Then they turn around and whine about how persecuted they are if anybody dare question their "right" to do so.

[Duncan Grant]

50. Got any evidence to support that assertion?

Religion is a much more discrimated (sic) segment of society...

It won't be difficult to dismantle that fallacy. Looking forward to your reply!

[thebrandnewcrow]

58. FBI stats good for you?

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2006/table1.html

Incidents, Offenses, Victims, and Known Offenders
by Bias Motivation, 2006

Victims on basis of religion: 1,750

Victims on basis of sexual orientation: 1,472

[yewberry]

94. Yeah, there's that poor, persecuted majority.

The Dobson crowd loves to claim that they're the ones being 'oppressed' when they're not allowed to use public money to install a creche on public property or hold a religious rally during school hours, or that their marriage is somehow threatened because GLBT families might get the right to visit their loved ones in a hospital, too.

Meantime, there are actually people who lose their homes, their jobs, their communities, and sometimes their lives because jackasses think that straight people having to be aware that there are GLBT people and families in the world with them is some kind of terrorism.

[NMMNG]

118. Did you look at the breakdowns on those stats, Einstein?

Religion: 1,462 1,597 1,750 705
Anti-Jewish 967 1,027 1,144 362
Anti-Catholic 76 81 86 44
Anti-Protestant 59 62 65 35
Anti-Islamic 156 191 208 147
Anti-Other Religion 124 140 147 63
Anti-Multiple Religions, Group 73 88 92 49
Anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc. 7 8 8 5


So if you're trying to play Persecuted Christian it isn't going to work. The bulk of those crimes were perpetrated against non-Christians (probably by RRRW Fundie bigots). As to Christians, once you take out Catholics (because fundies don't consider them "real Christians" anyway) that leaves 65 victims for the entire year. Leave in the Catholics and there are still only 151 Christian victims.


Compare that to 1472 LGBT victims for the year.


http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2006/table1.html

[Duncan Grant]

127. 66% of those crimes are against Jews. American Christians don't face any similar discrimination.

Many Christians would like to make the argument that they're discriminated against but they can't use the FBI stats you provided as evidence.

I suspect most Jews and LGBT people would both find your argument disingenuous, to say the least. I'll assert that most contemporary crimes against Jews are probably perpetrated by extreme right-wing Christian ideologues. In simpler terms: religious people persecuting religious people.

Shall we now discuss how "put upon" the Christians are when compared to LGBT people? Or will you continue to claim that "religious" people are more discriminated against than LGBT people?

[KitchenWitch]

213. Incidents based on sexual orientation that were conveniently swept under the rug

or called something else - COUNTLESS.

Thanks for playing.

[NMMNG]

110. Yo!

Religion is protected. You are not being discriminated against. Buy a clue.

[Marrah_G]

22. Please tell me you truly are not this ignorant

[thebrandnewcrow]

24. Why am I ignorant for asking a question?

Gee, I guess it's because they don't have an answer.

[Marrah_G]

25. I did give you an answer

[thebrandnewcrow]

28. That isn't an answer

No, I don't think that is an answer. Maybe you do - but you are wrong.

[Marrah_G]

29. I did give you an answer - post #15

How about answering my question?

[thebrandnewcrow]

31. OK I did.

[Marrah_G]

33. I see no response to #15

[thebrandnewcrow]

36. Well why didn't you say so?

[Marrah_G]

56. I did - and I am done with you- enjoy your pizza

[Marrah_G]

15. My daughter is Bi-leaning towards lesbian- she is still finding herself

She can be openly bi here - she can go out with a female with far less discrimination then would be found in other parts of the country. If she decides someday to get married then she can do so legally here, even if she choses a female partner.

My children are growing up in a town where the Mayor is a gay, legally married man. Here she doesn't have to hide.

So yes- I believe it would be much harder for her in other states.

[thebrandnewcrow]

39. Has anyone seen a question in this thread?

I mean - up to this point - of course. Aren't questions usually demoted by the punctuation: "?" ?

[Marrah_G]

40. YOu asked a question, I responded and then you claimed no one responded to your question

You really are talking in circles here

[libnnc]

41. What the fuck are you trying to argue here?

That non heterosexual people should just move to another state if they want any kind of equality? How is that "equality"?

[Chovexani]

51. I think he's arguing for Troll rights.

[libnnc]

35. Homophobic garbage

:puke:

Enjoy your stay :hi:

[NMMNG]

105. That would be bigoted fuckwits

whothink they have the right to force everybody in America to live according to their religious beliefs.

[Bluebear]

7. Other: we just have to hope for change

[TomClash]

9. Why did you post this poll?

Isn't this truth self-evident? :shrug:

[ruggerson]

18. Because Senator Obama

apparently believes in frame 2.

"Giving them a set of basic rights would allow them to experience their relationship and live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination," Obama said. "I think it is the right balance to strike in this society."

(scroll down to the end of the article)

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:5sVpZEU_-eoJ:www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0409250111sep25,1,7998660.story%3Fcoll%3Dchi-newsopinion-hed+%22right+balance+to+strike%22+Obama&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=24&gl=us

[keepCAblue]

43. Is the black community ENTITLED to equal rights or should they be GIVEN them by WHITE people?

'Tis my question to Mr. Obama.

:banghead:

[NMMNG]

205. Hear, hear

Funny how some people don't understand the parallel.

[TomClash]

55. Oh, brother

I don't see much of a practical difference between the two.

[ruggerson]

103. Actually, there is a very deep difference between the two

[cloudythescribbler]

192. This is a TENDENTIOUS INTERPRETATION of what Obama said

and I notice that many of those who seem to accept that perversion of logic here, get all whiny when a FAR more reasonable plain interpretation of a statement CONSISTENT with the statement-maker's overall views is presented.

It is important to be against bigotry, but there are other things like copperheadism to be on the lookout for too.

[FredScuttle]

12. OTHER: The community should "pray the gay away"

like Pastor Donnie says

[LostinVA]

143. Who the hell is Pastor Donnie?

Wait, do you mean the Ex-Gay clown?

[Chovexani]

228. Yep. He's a minister.

Something the "he's just a singer" crowd seems to be ignorant of. His church is in Long Island. http://www.perfectingfaith.org

At any rate, even if he was "just" a gospel artist, he wouldn't be "just" a singer. Most gospel artists consider their music to be a form of ministry.

[MuseRider]

19. Given them by straight people, wow.

Entitled to equal rights by birth, no "basic" rights and no "giving" you anything. They are yours.

Wow ruggerson, the way you phrased that is so offensive that I don't know how anyone could ever agree that straight people had any kind of right to give and take away from anyone else.

In essence though, that is exactly how this is isn't it? I had never thought of it in those terms. I think I can use this.

[ruggerson]

21. It's a quote from Barack Obama

sadly enough.

[MuseRider]

68. !

I knew about the basic rights part but did he really say rights to be given by straight people? I can hardly think that even Obama would say that. Please tell me that part isn't true, the basic rights and discrimination part are bad enough.

Still ruggerson, that is a powerful way to put it. I am ashamed when I read it and you know how I feel. I will use this. We need everything we can muster this year and that is a very powerful thing to say to people. Maybe it will make them think instead of just reacting.

[ruggerson]

111. the quote

"Giving them a set of basic rights would allow them to experience their relationship and live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination," Obama said. "I think it is the right balance to strike in this society."

There are a number of things morally wrong with this construct, and perhaps he just worded it poorly, but this is not one isolated incident - there is a pattern of both deeds and words.

[MuseRider]

140. Thanks

I agree with you. I took it the same way you did but did not put it in such powerful terms.

I can pick out 4 things right off the bat that stink about that statement. It is difficult now to hear anything he says about GLBT issues without it being colored by the McClurkin participation *emcee* in the gospel concert and the response to legitimate concerns and anger about it. This statement also makes me think twice. He either believes this or he is a very poor off the cuff speaker and needs to learn a lot before he speaks about these issues because he is doing his campaign no good with this kind of statement.

[cloudythescribbler]

195. where is the pattern? The stuff about McClurkin (whose position Obama plainly rejected)? nt

[FredScuttle]

244. Obama "plainly rejected" but still hired him to be the headliner for his campaign event?

What. The. Fuck.

[cloudythescribbler]

247. This isn't rocket science -- Obama's campaign already planned to have a popular gospel singer ...

sing at and MC a campaign event. Then gay activists brought to his attention that the person (McClurkin) was unacceptable to them. Now Obama was in a difficult spot. He did at some point afterwards (I don't have the link at my fingertips, but anyway) clearly indicate that he regretted that, since McClurkin was essentially a performer and not a campaign spokesperson, he had not been more fully vetted to start with; Obama also suggested, reasonably in my view, that in a massive national campaign, these sorts of things (someone introduces a candidate and says something embarrassing etc), especially in a nonscripted campaign.

Obama -- I THINK REASONABLY BUT OPINIONS MAY DIFFER ON THIS -- chose to go ahead with the performance and have a gay pastor involved, and to CLEARLY state his position in support of gay rights. There is NO pattern of (as with the race-baiting by the HRC campaign) ANY SORT OF CALCULATED baiting or strategy to exploit homophobia. It was the kind of problem you come up with when leading a broad national coalition, whose members have lots of internal conflicts with each other (labor and small businesses, students and administrators, different ethnic groups, etc). Obama could surely have handled it better, but NOTHING in the situation, or in the NUMEROUS threads -- recurring on DU to this day -- complaining about this incident and Obama leads me to believe that it is being harped on even now for reasons merely of good faith self-defense of a persecuted minority. I say this as someone who is bi. It just doesn't add up, unlike the PATTERN of calculated statements like "shuck and jive" from the HRC campaign.

In short, Obama chose NOT TO CANCEL an invitation, disappointing not only the performer but the audience, but rather to let the issue come to the surface and address it in good faith. That is how I see the situation.

[killbotfactory]

37. Obama wants to "give them" rights because they are entitled to them

What he means by "give them" rights is ending DOMA and the like, ending discrimination in the military, and allowing gay couples the same federal rights that straight couples have.

[bullwinkle428]

191. Then he should have been more explicit, and said it

exactly the way you laid it out!

The way he actually said came across as "We'll throw those queer folks a bone, just to placate them for the time being..."

[baldguy]

47. Equal right are an entitlement to human beings.

The real question is why have they been taken away?

[thebrandnewcrow]

48. The REAL question

Is which rights have been taken away?

[TZ]

53. well lets start with

equal opportunity (you can be legally fired for being gay from a job), the right to be married and legally recognized and get equal benefits of hetero couples, the right to adopt children and raise them as they see fit. The right to walk around freely and not be attacked for daring to "come on" to a straight person..Shall I go on? Gays are denied constitutional and basic human rights on a daily basis and its idiots like YOU that contribute to this dehumanization of gays.

[thebrandnewcrow]

61. Having trouble...

Can't find any of those in my Constitution....please help????

[TZ]

83. Its also in the Declaration of Independance

All men are created equal...and everyone has the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
But I guess that's just a piece of paper to you eh?
There are a lot of constituional rights though that are routinely denied to gays even if its not the first three amendments which everyone knows....

[maxanne]

87. ooooh

I can't find the right to nuclear weapons in the Constitution, either, but we have them.

The Constitution doesn't mention GOD, but I have to hear a lot about it.

The Constitution didn't include my gender, even though there were certainly women on the planet when it was written.

[baldguy]

96. "no state shall… deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Its called the 14th Amendment to the Constitution.

[cloudythescribbler]

198. Take a look at the equal protection clause of the XIV Amendment, for starters

NOR, as the 9th Amendment makes clear, is it AT ALL appropriate to assume that all rights are those enumerated in the Constitution. The CONSTITUTION ITSELF SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT THE ENUMERATION OF CERTAIN RIGHTS THEREIN SHALL NOT BE USED TO DENY OR DISPARAGE OTHER RIGHTS.

now come on brandnewcrow -- don't be obtuse ....

[Marrah_G]

57. They were never given in the first place

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bicentennial_baby]

60. "you people"

Wow, that is some bigoted shit you've posted right there. :puke:

[thebrandnewcrow]

63. Confused

Yeah, I think there may be a mental issue here with delirium. Someone get me an IV.

[Marrah_G]

69. Fuck off you bigot-

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marrah_G]

76. You are a pathetic little turd- Your party is a failure and you just can't face it

[Marrah_G]

67. I see a tombstone in your future

Go crawl back under the slime-covered rock you came from you bigoted piece of shit. WE PEOPLE don't welcome YOU PEOPLE here.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marrah_G]

77. Ladies and Gentlemen- Talking points straight out of Fundyville-

No, I have ZERO tolerance for you and those of your ilk.

[libnnc]

85. Sad little beastie...

Sad, lonely little beastie. :(

But don worryz granitez will lurve u soonz...

[cabraverde]

91. amen

some of them are as full as seething hatred as those they hate .

[Solon]

115. Why the fuck should I tolerate your homophobic ass? n/t

[cabraverde]

120. I am not homophobic

I would actualy probably kiss a guy to prove it. I have "had sex" with other guys before (we were both having sex with the same girl), I have been involved in relations between two girls. I could care less who someone wants to bang or lick, I just dont like people inventing new and unfounded "rights"

if you could get past your hatred maybe you could see that.

[Solon]

126. What the fuck is this, proving your manhood?

You are simply pathetic.

[cloudythescribbler]

217. OK, so you don't hate gays, only oppose "gay rights" -- Maybe you should explain your position ...

in its own thread, and then the rationales for protecting gays can be made clearer.

Here's my own simple summary (from someone bi): In Jefferson's day, gay sexual practice was criminalized, indeed a CAPITAL OFFENSE. Even before the 'gay liberation' movement, thinking on the subject had, from 1800 to the 1950s advanced to the point where gay sex was no longer universally criminalized in the US, and was more generally treated as a form of "deviance", itself defined as essentially a psychiatric disorder . Compared to being a capital offense, that was progress, of a sort.

But the advance of the notion of rights, especially in the era since WWII, was such that things like race discrimination, overt and written into the laws, at one time accepted routinely, were now recognized widely as contrary to the obvious meaning of the 14th Amendment and the notion of human rights of a citizen in modern society.

This is not to say that rights are not anchored in fundamental universal principle, only that they have only become rights IN PRACTICE as society as moved forward. In Roman times, pater potentas allowed a father the "RIGHT" to murder his children. Now children are protected from that, and from treatment at the hands of their parents that 100 years ago would have been considered de rigeur. So rights, for gays, or for ANYONE, need to be understood as a moral imperative, but also learned about HISTORICALLY, because in history we can see how and when certain kinds of rights became effective and recognized. On the issue of slavery, nothing could be so violative of fundamental human decency as the treatment of fellow human beings as chattel to be bought and sold. Indeed the 'and they're always glad you came' ruling class still regards the rights of us hoi polloi the same way, but have to maintain at least the pretense of a rights system because ordinary people now demand it.

Now, by the 60s, with both the Civil Rights movement -- expanding from blacks especially in the South to nationally, and focusing on ALL groups of color, and on the full human rights of women, and along a broad front of society (eg something as seemingly off the usual 'rights' path as nondiscrimination on the basis of legitimacy of birth) COMBINED with sexual liberation. Importantly, gays became much more self-conscious as a group whose rights were being denied in contemporary society. With the Stonewall riots in 1969 yet another "rights" movement was born, just as feminism was 'reborn' in the 1950s with a much broader focus than had been the case for most women earlier (in the 20s, most LEADING FEMINISTS opposed legalizing abortion!). We in this modern era have come to see that it is unfair to discriminate in the private sector in employment against people on the basis of their race, their gender, etc. The notion of gay rights, generally recognized by most Americans (even a large number of those who oppose 'gay marriage' as somehow 'going too far') has become routinely accepted AS RIGHTS throughout modern society. Most advanced industrial countries now legally recognize discrimination against gays as intolerable in many spheres of life, and the issue is moving forward, even if more slowly in the US (where the modern movement of gay rights really began).

In short, like the rights of free speech or of a citizen not to be imprisoned at the whim of the king, or to be an atheist without being burned at the stake, ALL THESE have become recognized at some point in human history. NONE OF THOSE THINGS WE NORMALLY REGARD AS RIGHTS HAVE BEEN RECOGNIZED IN ALL TIMES AND ALL PLACES. At the same time, society in general, especially a near consensus of Democrats in the US, have come to see that ALL the various forms of discrimination, including obviously discrimination in the military and in the right to have one's marriage respected just like a heterosexual couple, are indeed fundamental. Many states and localities already have wide (if still insufficient, including in MA) protection of gay rights. But nationally, laws like the "Defense of Marriage Act" (signed by Bill CLinton) are not only on the books, but promulgated under the Clinton Administration.

So there is a thumbnail sketch of the fact that gay sexuality, which is now seen by most as no less "normal" than heterosexuality or abstinence, is accepted throughout the advanced industrial world as well as many other places (such as Cuba). There is a ways to go in our society, as some of the posters in this thread exemplify.

And yes, it is true that there are some who use the idea of rights, and of protection from oppression (including non-state, nonemployer hate crimes like the harassment of and attacks upon gays) to basically promote their own agenda of hate. But there are people who use the idea of "democracy", perverted, to promote all kinds of bigotry including racism and homophobia. The notion that because we are all imperfect, including those opposed to bigotry, that the opposition to bigotry is wrong is a fallacy. Merely opposing bigotry like homophobia and racism is like not wiping your ass on the tablecloth at dinner. It is a NECESSARY but not a sufficient pre-requisite to civility.

So the claim of incivility-hence-hypocrisy against at least SOME who oppose homophobia does not address the rights issue in any substantive way, merely the human imperfection of those grasping it. As my historical approach to rights (which is really the only honest one) is intended to make clear, ALL RIGHTS are emergent, something people have developed over time, something that really only has an effectiveness to the extent embraced by the people (who would otherwise undermine the rights of the nonpowerful in practice if they didn't believe in them), NO RIGHTS HAVE EXISTED IN A PURE STATE, UNCHANGED IN ALL TIME, AND NO RIGHTS IN OUR SOCIETY HAVE EXISTED OUTSIDE THEIR HISTORICAL FRAMEWORK. To expect this of 'gay rights' is to fundamentally misconstrue ALL rights and how they exist in human affairs.

are you asleep yet?

[LostinVA]

186. HOT -- TROLL ON TROLL ACTION

[NMMNG]

203. Now that's a picture I didn't need in my head.

:scared:

[LostinVA]

208. I felt dirty posting it

I may have to go watch lesbian porn to get it out of my head. Wait, there's no such thing as good lesbian porn. I may have to watch "Unfaithful."

[baldguy]

136. When the US Army liberated Auschwitz & tossed the SS guards in prison

They were not being intolerant toward the Nazis.

[cabraverde]

90. sorry for the rantish spout, I think I worded it wrong

i did not mean "you people" as gays, lesbians or any other sexual orientation, I meant it as an entire group of people who assume that there are "rights" when they really don't exist.

I was slightly perturbed by an issue earlier in the day in which someone (family member) claimed 1st amendment right to free speech...in my house! I explained to them that the only right they have to exit my front door if they don't like it. No one seems to realize that even the rights outlined in the bill of rights only apply to the FEDERAL government, any individual or organization or private entity can be as prejudiced and bigoted as the want to be.

Oh yeah as a side note .....if you expect tolerance ...try practicing it first.

[Solon]

93. Incorrect, the Bill of Rights applies to all organizations of the state...

You forget the Reconstruction Amendments. This includes "equal protection" which could be extended to marriage, and in fact, was used in Loving v. Virginia, which was one of the primary Supreme Court cases that struck down anti-miscegenation laws. In that decision, marriage was called a civil right in the majority decision.

As far as private entities, what you say is true, UNLESS there is a law in place to create protections against discrimination by private entities. The Civil Rights act of 1964 is an example of this.

ON EDIT: We don't tolerate the intolerant, period.

[LostinVA]

95. Wow -- I'm so not surprised to see you posting homophobic tripe

[libnnc]

98. I'd like to dedicate this lolcats to our two "friends" in this thread...

[LostinVA]

129. Best LOL cat EVAH

[libnnc]

134. I thank you. My kitty thanks you...

:blush:

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bicentennial_baby]

113. Oh jesus fucking Christ....

I can't wait for them to tombstone your pathetic, bigoted ass.

[LostinVA]

I can't wait either

Am I a bad gay, because I've never been in an orgy? I've only watched orgies on DVD.

I think the only lesbians he "banged" were on some 900 number.

[bicentennial_baby]

156. Y'know, 'you people' are just so promiscuous...

:eyes:

And yes, I'm sure you're correct on that point. :thumbsup:

[LostinVA]

158. We just can't help ourselves

Haruka and I personally strive to destroy heterosexual marriage, because we decided straights weren't working hard enough at it.

[Rising Phoenix]

117. what the hell

so all gay people participate in orgy's and are promiscous.....you are without a doubt HOMOPHOBIC

[bicentennial_baby]

121. 'sup?

:hi: Good to have you onboard.

[Rising Phoenix]

125. thanks

:hi:

[cabraverde]

122. nope .....but I do

[Rising Phoenix]

131. so why is that even relevant

asshole!

[cabraverde]

146. oh, how tolerent of you

what a grand bastion of tolerence you are.

[Rising Phoenix]

149. you have no idea how damn tolerant I am

don't you even know who you are talking to

[Solon]

152. Act like an asshole, and you will be treated as one...

Really, its not complicated. I know its Saturday, and you are ecstatic about being off from your third tour in 7th grade. But really, it just makes you seem pathetic.

[yewberry]

155. After what you just said to another poster?

You're complaining about lack of tolerance?

Yeah, y'know, I don't tolerate people making racist or misogynist or homophobic remarks in my house, either.

Boy, am I intolerant...

[LostinVA]

160. Yeah -- you're just a HATER

:eyes:

[cabraverde]

162. who drinks 'haterade"..lol

I actulay feel bad for those who hate, i am only capable of love. My heart goes out to those who can't enjoy the pleasure of love for all of our fellow humans.

[LostinVA]

165. The only thing you love is your right hand and tub of generic petroleum jelly from Sam's Club

[Solon]

168. LOL, your response was better than mine!

:rofl:

[Solon]

The fact is that you gave way too much information on how you "love" others...

look dude, the fact of the matter is that you make yourself look like an idiot. Seriously, if you are so insecure in your own sexual prowess that you have to brag about it anonymously on an Internet message board, the only feeling I can work up for you is pity.

[cabraverde]

171. thanks, for the entertainment

I was hungry today...now I am getting quite full. I apreciate the feeding I have recieved.

Seriously, You fellas are so easy to get riled up, and once you get going its like the energiser bunny

[Solon]

172. Well, at least now you admit to being a troll...

I find you guys to be the most pathetic of all. To troll message boards and feed off of negativity just proves how much you lost touch with your own humanity.

[libnnc]

179. Aww... well now you can haz it...

[FloridaJudy]

215. You're hungry?

Great. I see pizza in your future.

[yewberry]

169. I noticed that you didn't answer my question downthread.

At this point, though, I've lost interest in your opinion or your 'love for all fellow humans.'

I will, however, continue to answer you every time you post to this DUer.

[cabraverde]

176. I answered it

But I will again, yes the only thing I am against is the terminalogy used. all this hate is based on my opinion that I think the word "privilages" should be substituted for "rights".

I guess I am a bigoted against words.

[yewberry]

194. Well, you tried to, anyway.

Reality check: all of those privileges that you don't like to see referred to as rights? Yeah, those, the ones that straight people don't have to think twice about? Well, we all know that those are privileges. When they are protected or denied under the law, that's when we're talking about rights.

I guess you are bigoted against having a discussion that isn't couched in silly arguments.

[LostinVA]

184. Thank you, again

:pals:

[Kucinich4America]

177. "My heart goes out to those who can't enjoy the pleasure of love....." for sheep, in your case.

A romantic day at the beach for crow, cabraverde, and another as yet unidentified homophobe. And their "girls".

[LostinVA]

187. I think the one on the right is dating a ram

[libnnc]

119. Oink...

oink-oink...

:puke:

[LostinVA]

145. No -- I don't kiss trolls

I don't give a fuck about whom you pretended to have slept with, nor do I care whether or not someone's promiscuous, or if you've been assfucked.

What I do care about is the fact that you're a homophobic, threadstalking troll.

[yewberry]

147. Whatever your deal is, I'd say this post will be your demise.

The poster you're bothering doesn't deserve it, and if you had a bit of sense, you'd just go.

Your kind of nasty crap may be fine some places, but it won't be welcomed here.

[LostinVA]

161. Thanks

:hug:

[yewberry]

164. .

:toast:

I hope this one doesn't get the chance to bug you anymore.

I had no idea...If Skittles isn't around, I've got my caps lock and my ass-kicking faux-leather boots at the ready.

[baldguy]

100. see post #96

[yewberry]

108. Priveleges, then.

Why shouldn't GLBT families have the same privileges afforded to them?

Equality is what we're talking about.

[cabraverde]

114. amen......I have no problem with this at all.

I just dont like the "rights" thing,I actualy agree ...you all would see that if you could get past yor hatred and anger.

[Solon]

123. You, sir, sexually harrassed a fellow member on this very thread....

and are an asshole of the highest order.

[LostinVA]

138. He's also been threadstalking me since the first day he joined DU

AND sending me horrible PMs (which were blocked, and the appropriate people notified).

[Solon]

142. He should get his ass tombstoned, what a horrible, sad, pathetic little man.

No one should have to deal with that. As a victim of stalking that spilled from online to real life, it can vary from aggravating to scaring the shit out of you.

:hug:

[LostinVA]

153. I've been stalked in real life by online people

So has my spouse, so I understand.

:hug:

[Solon]

159. Hugfest! Can we get a Hugfest in here!

Always up for some hugs! :)

:grouphug:

The negativity of the two posters is wearing on me, I figured this would be a good break from that! :)

[LostinVA]

163. Hugfest!

:grouphug:

[libnnc]

144. Ah. A freeptardmoran and a psycho...

A two-fer... :silly:

[LostinVA]

157. Yeah

I think his other two "names" were TS'd this week. Either that or he's some zombie, since he's so personal with me.

[cabraverde]

167. actualy ....i sent one IM asking you to put me on your ignore list

but I assume I am so adorable and irristable that that is an impossibility.
Why the fuck do you find me so full of intrigue that you cant just put me on ignore...this is not the first time I have asked this.
Hell i would put you on ignore in a heartbeat if I knew that you would not be able to see my posts either.....can anyone tell me if a person who is on ignore can see the posts of the ignorer?

[Solon]

170. I got a better idea, why not fucking leave this board, and never come back...

seriously, just fucking leave and never post again. We do not, repeat, do NOT, appreciate your posts.

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

182. For some reason, I doubt that story, considering you have the mental age of a 12 year old...

I would peg your actual age to be about 14 or so. Too young to be in the army, but go ahead and live out your fantasies in your backyard fort!

[cabraverde]

185. That is your choice, your opinion, and your belief

You actualy have a RIGHT to think whatever you want, you have a privliage to disiminate those thoughts.

[Solon]

211. Actually, I have the right to both express them and think them...

but then again, I actually KNOW about the First Amendment, and spellcheck, maybe you should use it?

[yewberry]

175. By all means put her on ignore.

If you've been so aggrieved by this poster, why don't you go to the mods?

Or, you could leave her alone. Or just leave.

Your call, of course.

[cabraverde]

183. Like I have said before

I am leaving in 2 days. I am going into basic combat training for the US Army. 2 days from now I will be nothing but a memory. (for 9 weeks atleast)

[LostinVA]

189. Oh -- are you refering to the threatening sexual PM?

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

197. I was pretty sure you were CollegeLiberal

But now that you're going to pray for me, I'm 100% sure.

[cabraverde]

No I just graduated this past semester

I WAS in college and a liberal. I was even a member of "college liberals" and part of the political science club at my school.

[LostinVA]

204. Oh boy

[Solon]

206. pfft, like anyone would believe a fucking word you say. n/t

[yewberry]

124. You're saying that you think everyone should have equal rights and privileges?

And that your argument is with the terminology used?

I just don't understand this.

Why not just accept that fighting for equal rights under the law is always the right thing to do, regardless of what you think about the differences between privileges and rights?

[cabraverde]

174. you are 100% correct

I want equal privlilages for everyone. This whole flame fest is a result of my not likeing the terminalogy. I am hated because I don't like a word (rights)....now that is tolerent.

[yewberry]

178. Equal rights AND privileges.

I suspect that it's not just terminology, unfortunately.

You seem to be of the opinion that no one's rights are being abridged. We disagree there.

(Why should anyone be tolerant of someone making weird passes at DUers and bizarre remarks about sexuality? If you think you're hated, THAT is why.)

[Solon]

180. Too bad you are 100% wrong...

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man", fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

[cloudythescribbler]

199. Wrong -- visiting loved ones who are sick, and marriage ARE RIGHTS, even if they aren't ....

enumerated in the Constitution. The notion that the Constitution is the sum total of all rights is a terrible fallacy....

[dsc]

200. The supreme court has habitually upheld a right to marriage

even death row prisioners have a right to get married.

[Writer]

52. Wow. I suppose now, because I strongly disagree with the premise of your question...

I am supposed to find some rude way to disparage you personally. I'm supposed to ascribe motives to you that you may not likely have.

Oh - and I'm suppose to call you a name or two.

But I'm tired of that.

So all I'm going to say is that I'm very sure the GLBT community simply seeks the same rights that everyone in a heterosexual relationship has. And that is all.

~Writer~

[ruggerson]

133. How do you disagree with the premise of the question?

It's pretty simple.

[Writer]

202. Well I think you just answered your own question...

Because I think it IS pretty simple: Homosexuals don't want to be excluded from the same functions of living (marriage; spousal benefits) because of their sexual orientation.

[ruggerson]

220. Agreed

But you're not disagreeing with the premise of what I posed, you're pretty much agreeing with Frame #1.

A leading presidential candidate uses Frame #2, hence the question.

[Writer]

230. Yeah, but why are you presenting both of those options?

[ruggerson]

233. To see if there is general agreement with the way

the presidential candidate framed it or not.

So far, not is winning.

[Writer]

235. Ahhhh. You know, you'll never get an honest answer if you ask.

At least, you'll get the answer that is most flattering to the person answering it.

It's like asking people if they eat their vegetables.

"Of course!" they'll say, as they nosh on a bag of Doritos.

[Omaha Steve]

62. All men (and women) are created equal

I remember hearing this in grade school.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marrah_G]

71. You are a disgusting waste of your father's sperm

Freeperville called and asked you to come home- they miss their village idiot.

[cabraverde]

92. that statement just oozes tolerence and compasion

You are a true asset to our liberal cause

[Duncan Grant]

243. Says the tombstoned asshole. (nt)

[bicentennial_baby]

72. Awww, it's Rick Santorum, ladies and gentlemen...

:puke:

[libnnc]

75. Oh noes!!111 Soon we'll be marrying box turtles!!111

Spinning the top ten bigoted hit this afternoon, eh?

:spray:

Fool

[Marrah_G]

78. They are out in droves the last two days

[indimuse]

135. you are right ! calm down...

they were all over last nite! It was crazy...as you can see..they are NEW they don't have a lot of posts..there are about 4 of them..slamming this board. I was almost in shock..I could not believe the hatred and bigotry.. They don't belong here I alerted the Mod!

They came here together with intention...I have no answer but i had never seen ANYTHING LIKE IT!

[Kucinich4America]

102. No, Santorum was man-on-dog sex

Box turtles was John Cornyn.

[Omaha Steve]

79. I suppose you don' believe in " life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" either?

US law is based on the rights of an individual. As long as you don't harm others, their property etc..., all is well. Let GLBTs be happy. They do have equal rights under the law. Conservative values and courts just haven't figured that out yet.

[thebrandnewcrow]

82. Individual rights do not apply to partnerships

Because you are no longer AN INDIVIDUAL.

[TZ]

89. So if one gets married then...

Does that mean you can no longer practice the religion of your choice? Freedom of religion is an individual right too.
You are splitting hairs here in an pathetic attempt to justify BIGOTRY.
Explain again to me why its okay to fire someone for their sexual orientation?

[yewberry]

104. Then that should apply to straight partnerships, too.

Are you suggesting that because the right to marry isn't an enumerated right in the Constitution, that GLBT people shouldn't be allowed to marry?

Applying that logic, neither should straight couples.

[Solon]

106. So, may I assume you support anti-miscegenation laws?

If you don't know what that means, look it up, and look up the arguments that were used to support such laws, you are using the same ones. I bet that makes you proud.

[Duncan Grant]

188. Obviously, you can't think your way out of a wet paper bag.

Based on this post alone, I've decided to alert on you. You've earned your tombstone.

edit:
Please refer to Skinner's 2004 post on these issues:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1324374&mesg_id=1324374

[Kucinich4America]

212. If that's what you want, I suggest you talk to Mitt Romney

If he's elected President, polygamy is a possibility. Maybe Fred Thompson will make it OK for you to marry your sister?

[cabraverde]

99. well....it was a lie!!!!!

I am not as tall as kobe bryant, I am not as rich as bill gates, i am not as thug as 50cent, I can not punch as hard as chuck liddell, I have not banged as many girls as ron jeremy, I do not have the endurance of lance armstrong, I do not have the Patience of Gandhi, I don't have an office on capital hill, I am not a judge, nor a cop, or a D.A., I am not equal to any of those people who are or do those things.
On the other hand, I have a college degree, I scored 96 on my asvab, make good money, have a great girlfriend, can cook like a champ, ride a motocross bike very well, and can drink most people under the table. Therefore if someone does not posses these qualities they are not my equal.

[Solon]

109. So homosexuals are inferior to you?

It sounds like you are justifying treating people differently, in law and culture, due to some innate trait. That smacks of bigotry to me.

[cabraverde]

132. when did I say that?

oh ...thats right I didn't.

But a homeless, drug addicted, convicted felon, wanted on an arrest warrant gay man is inferior to me and I would hope everyone else on this board.

[Solon]

139. All I know is, given the rule that the more you brag about your sexual encounters...

the smaller your manhood is and how it negatively reflects on your sexual experience, I'm assuming you are a virgin who is hung like a mouse.

[cabraverde]

150. omg....how did you know , my cover is blown

Not only that, but I even have lots of pimples and live in my moms basement....I also play WoW, and pretend I am a girl in chatrooms/.

[Solon]

154. That doesn't surprise me a bit. n/t

[AlCzervik]

66. the anti gay bullshit in this thread is epic.

[Fire Walk With Me]

74. That there is any perceived inequality...

...speaks volumes.

[panzerfaust]

81. "Rights" cannot be Given ...

... by definition they are one's by right.

[nealmhughes]

141. Indeed, under Enlightenment theory, we are born equal in rights.Some are altered for the public good

such as justice, warfare, etc., taxation and others as part of the compact under which we are collectively governed.

One can only abridge or take away a right, not grant it. What a corporate entity such as a Congress or legislature CAN do is guarantee the exercise of a right belonging to the people, such as freedom from discrimination either de facto or de jure by a group who bases their discrimination upon perceived or actual "difference."

In other words, the right to drive 100 mph down I-95 exists, but the people have collectively abridged it through law. I have a natural right not to rent to one because of their race or religion, but try to enforce that right and see what the government will do to you. That right is rendered null by the law, and it will be enforced.

One has the right not to pay taxes, as did Al Capone, but he died shortly after leaving Sing Sing...

In short, we are born with all rights of rational humans, but have some abridged by force -- some totally reasonable and just, others arbitrary, or class or religion based, and some merely for the assertion of power to show the governed that they are governed.

Such is the case for GLBT rights, they are abridged or denied and for no good reason at all, save for religious reasons, and are not for the commonweal or any other purpose except to maintain a permanent underclass of citizens in their most private lives. Such to me is anathema to the Enlightenment and our contract system of governance.

[Mythsaje]

97. I think if ANYONE wants special rights

it's the anti-gay Christians, who want THEIR prejudices and religious beliefs to be held in greater esteem than anyone else's. They want to be able to harass gays at will, deny people medication based on religious sentiments, and want THEIR religion promoted by the government.

They have NO room to talk about "special rights."

[jlake]

130. Absolutely!

[rodeodance]

101. The language of 'special rights' is used by RW to cut of conversation.

[libnnc]

116. To the two bigoted beasties in this thread...they know who they are

Why is it so threatening to you that all I ask for is the same rights and privileges that heterosexual married couples enjoy? Why should the burden be on me to move to a state that has evolved into the 21st century? I like living in NC. I have family here. My roots are here. My partner's roots are here. We've made a HOME here. Why should we be forced to live like vagabonds? What's to guarantee that domestic partnerships in one state are forever safe?

Why are "you people" so put off by guaranteeing me hospital visitation rights, survivors' rights, adoption rights, protection from employment discrimination, protection from hate crimes etc? Why does that irk you? Married couples enjoy these and many other basic privileges under the law. LGBT couples are denied these privileges because we aren't "married". Why is so hard for "you people" to understand that I don't want "special rights". Why?

[NMMNG]

196. The short answer:

[Solon]

207. Hey, that's an insult to Neanderthals, they had brains that were 10% larger than ours...

These two trolls have the intelligence of...

[NMMNG]

214. I stand corrected

My apologies to Neanderthals.

[Solon]

216. Sorry, I'm oversensitive about that, my Dad might be a Neanderthal, or a Sasquatch...

he's hairy enough! :D

[Name removed]

222. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

223. Good riddance to bad rubbish! n/t

[libnnc]

225. Well fuck you fucking little fucker

Kiss my homosexual ass

It is my pleasure to give you this...

[laylah]

190. I would

love to hear from the ones who voted GLBT's should be given rights from straight people :puke:

[David Zephyr]

209. Barack Supports EQUAL RIGHTS for the GLBT Community. Ruggerson you should be ashamed of yourself.

You have cherry picked have contorted Barack into now being for only "basic rights" and not "equal rights" One could find most Democrats talking about basic rights and equal rights interchangeably.

In any event, here is the actual words of Senator Barack Obama on "EQUAL RIGHTS". I let your thread progress and let you paint yourself into your corner.

You truly have no shame.


"I have clearly stated my belief that gays and lesbians are our brothers and sisters and should be provided the respect, dignity, and rights of all other citizens. I have consistently spoken directly to African-American religious leaders about the need to overcome the homophobia that persists in some parts of our community so that we can confront issues like HIV/AIDS and broaden the reach of equal rights in this country.

I strongly believe that African Americans and the LGBT community must stand together in the fight for EQUAL rights. And so I strongly disagree with Reverend McClurkin's views and will continue to fight for these rights as President of the United States to ensure that America is a country that spreads tolerance instead of division."

~ Barack Obama

10/22/07

[bicentennial_baby]

210. Except that he does NOT support marriage equality, and,

fyi to Senator Obama, but HIV/AIDS is a heterosexual issue as well.

[hulklogan]

219. The Obama campaign seems to think that HIV/AIDS is strictly an issue for LGBT Americans

even when the specific groups the campaign refers to in its published statements on HIV/AIDS policy are people living in Africa and heterosexual women.

[LostinVA]

221. I saw on Oprah that the fastest growing segment of HIV-infected people

is straight black women infected by their husbands on the DL. I swear to God, it was on her show about a year ago.

[bicentennial_baby]

227. Yes, I remember that...

:thumbsup:

[ruggerson]

224. "Giving them a set of basic rights" are his own words, David

If he wants to clarify them, he can. I see it as part of a pattern of trying to frame our fight for equality in a way more palatable to conservative evangelicals in an effort to compromise with them on our issues. I don't think basic human rights are compromisable. I'm obviously not the only one seeing this tendency in him, as most GLTB people on DU and all the ones I know IRL see it pretty much the same way I do.

[mondo joe]

229. Not exactly. BO is for equalish rights for LGBTs. NT

[terrya]

248. We'll see what happens when President Obama...

is in office. A fully inclusive ENDA needs to be passed...as well as federal hate crimes legislation. As well as repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell and the Defense of Marriage Act. Will the Obama Adminstration commit political capital to making these happen?

Actually, that's unfair. I'm not expecting anything in the way of GLBT legislation from a Hillary Clinton White House or a Edwards Adminstration, also. If you have the lowest of expectations, you're not disappointed.

[we can do it]

218. Is the GLBT community ENTITLED to Pay Taxes

Is the GLBT community ENTITLED to pay equal taxes or should they be forgiven from paying them by straight people?

[Prophet 451]

238. Of course they are entitled

As mentally capable adult humans, they are entitled to the same rights as straight people enjoy (including the right to legally marry the consenting, competant adult of their choice).

Personally, I think the gay community would have gotten further with asserting their rights if they hadn't been so nice about it. The gay community is trying to win their rights through the ballot box and lawsuits and that's very noble, very laudable but for some reason, we tend not to accept something as a right unless it's torn from the bloodied fist of teh oppressor. In other words, forget the lawsuit, let's have some fucking riots!


(Note for the terminally dense: That last paragraph is mostly in jest. I am making the point that if you don't deal with people while they're being polite, they will eventually stop being polite)

[varelse]

240. Well, yes The HUMAN community is ENTITLED to equal rights

And as a part of THAT group, gays and lesbians (and every other human on the planet, god dammit!!!) are ENTITLED to equal rights.

I wish we could all agree on that and work for it together...

This labeling and sectioning off of groups of HUMANS (gay, bi, biracial, old, young, disabled, etc) certainly does not seem to serve that goal. :(

[CyberPieHole]

246. It's obscene that the question needs to be posited at all...

GLBTQ are ENTITLED to all rights afforded to others. Fuck those who preach "praying away the gay"...and fuck all those who pander to religious bigots.

:kick: and recommend