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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:08 PM
Original message
My candidate would be more attractive to Republicans!

So what? If everyone to the left of Kerry votes Democrat then we win by a landslide.

Tell me why I'm wrong.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wrong.
The 'ham sandwich' Dems are maybe 38-40% of the electorate. The same applies for 'ham sandwich republicans', more or less. That means that we must either a.) appeal to a majority of the Independents, or b.) siphon off Republican votes.

That's why you're wrong.
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lams712 Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Wrong
Voter turnout is what counts. A good candidate can motive people to go to the polls. Your point would be true if voter turnout was in the 90% or higher range. But turnout is barely above 50%, so there are LOTS of potential out there to be had by the right candidate without selling out principles.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. Then why hasn't that 'magic' worked for DK?
Edited on Thu Feb-26-04 06:52 PM by Padraig18
Care to reconcile that apparent contradiction?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Right
Isn't this the left's argument. Why should Kerry worry about the Right? He should lean back on our Liberal base and challenge the Right on the issues that he is in agreement with the Left on, and then some. That would energize our party and put the conservatives on their heels. Of course you can argue whether Kerry is the right one to carry this message, but if he is in fact percieved as centrist he could do the 'Nixon goes to China' thing and influence the moderate Democratic party to left of center and still appear pragmatic enough for the moderates.

F*** the republicans.
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buckeye1 Donating Member (630 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. Not quite.
Registered voters.

Rep: 34%

Dems: 33%

Ind: 33%

You have the idea. Your figures are just a bit off. Don't you wish others could realize this?
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. The only candidate to the left of Kerry is...
DK.

The only candidate remaining (with a voting record) to the right of Kerry is JE.
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anti-NAFTA Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. So wrong.
Leftism is defined by how willing a politician is to protect the worker. Kerry is obviously closer to the multinationals than Edwards, who comes from a protectionist state and has a record of fighting for fair trade (mostly). Kerry may be "progressive" on some other issues like the environment, but that doesn't make him leftist. Hitler himself was an environmentalist.
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MAlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. That's not my definition of leftism
nt
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anti-NAFTA Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Then what is your definition of leftist? nt
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Accomplishments of Liberalism
Interstate Highway System

GI Bill

Labor Laws

Marshall Plan

Environmental Laws

Food safety laws

Workplace safety laws

Social Security

Economic Growth

Space Program

Peace corps

Civil rights movement

The fight against Totalitarianism

The Internet

The Tennessee Valley project

Women's right to vote

Universal Public Education

National Weather Service

Scientific Research

Product Labeling/Truth in Advertising Laws

Public Health

Morrill Land Grant Act

Rural Electrification

Public Universities

Bank Deposit Insurance

Earned Income Tax Credit

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Family and Medical Leave Act

Consumer Product Safety Commission

Public Broadcasting

Americans With Disabilities Act


Details: http://www.turnleft.com/libgood.html



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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is most confusing
Isn't the whole reason Kerry's beingcryptic about his support for civil rights for gays because he wants to appeal to republicans?

Isn't that the reason all the weaklings voted for war and repeated bush's WMD lies?

Isn't that the reason they voted for the Patriot Act?

:shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. and he is for civil unions and full partnership rights
a position not unlike JE's

but very different from GWB, who is agin marriage and civil unions. I would say that GWB is the one who is baaaaaaaad and not in a good way.

Are you going to get hung up on the word "marriage?" Don't you think it is going to be a short jump to "marriage" once we get civil unions as described below:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/glbt /

<out of order snip>

John Kerry supports same-sex civil unions so that gay couples can benefit from the health benefits, inheritance rights, or Social Security survivor benefits guaranteed for heterosexual couples.

John Kerry believes that same-sex couples should be granted rights, including access to pensions, health insurance, family medical leave, bereavement leave, hospital visitation, survivor benefits, and other basic legal protections that all families and children need. He has supported legislation to provide domestic partners of federal employees the benefits available to spouses of federal employees. He was one of 14 Senators -- and the only one up for reelection in 1996 -- to oppose the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA).
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. don't worry - nobody called for a loyalty oath!
LOL

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lams712 Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. I agree....
...touting your candidate by saying how he will appeal to REPUBLICANS is not the right thing to do.

I also agree that if everyone to the left of Kerry voted for him he'd win in a landslide.

We should NOT apologize for being "liberal" or "progressive" (or whatever label you want to put on it).
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I agree
But, she should appollogize for not having integrity.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's kinda hard to keep track of exactly where Kerry stands
he representes a moving target....


Being very unlikable will turn off voters across the political spectrum. Likewise for a track record of reckless opportunism.

My fear is that Kerry will loose votes both right and left. Some supporters and others cannot stand to vote for a "dirty" player like Kerry and will go third party. Whilst Kerry's attitude scares away centrists. Kerry is just like the chimp: A divider, not a uniter.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Where are you getting your information about Kerry?!?!?!
"dirty" player like Kerry?
divider, not a uniter?

Sorry, I don't understand these characterizations
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Alright.
divider:

Kerry seems to try hard to alienate anyone that doesn't absoultely hate the current administration. There are many people who, whilst having voted for Bush in 2000 are deeply worried about the direction he is leading the country domestically and internationally. He doesn't reach out to Americans with a positive vision, but rather attempts to appeal to the already Bush hating base. That's well and good, but I think it is not a winning strategy for the election. And it is neither a winning strategy for America. Creating further resentment and bitterness.


dirty player:

Well, the Osama adds comes to mind. And, his absolute inability to take a stand and take responsibility for it. War crimes. no wa crimes. Fence in Israel. No fence in Israel. War is good. War is bad. Intelligence not good enough. Vote against spending on intellince apparatus. Throwing away Vietnam medal. Keeping medals. He is exactly like out current christian hypo(demo)cratic PM in Norway. Or actually like Boromir in the Lord of the Rings. A good man at bottom, but totally corrupted by a lust for power.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. OK, but . . .
divider: You are only seeing one half of the speeches etc. . .there is a positive vision, and goal of a better america. Very uplifting stuff.

dirty player; his campaign denounced the Osama ad. He has been pretty consistent on the IWR from day one - war as a last resort. Voted against intelligence spending because he felt it was gadget driven - he felt need for more people on the ground, not high tech (I think he was right) Others I can't address as I don't know enough about.

Another poster linked to this article that you might enjoy - it has a good overview of the risks he has taken, and I think it belies your sense of him as corrupted by power lust. Hope you will read it:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040315&s=corn

Hope to visit Norway someday soon. . .what a lovely country.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Thanks for the link...
I was an interesting read, but hardly a ringing endorsement... It was more like..Well, there is a lot to critize, but if you look more closely it's not all bad. Well, I really want to like the man, as I concede he is very likely to be the nominee..

I'll be watching eagerly the debate on CNN that's coming up. I'm staying up all night just hoping to have Kerry prove me wrong :-)

Heck, you and many here might disagree with me, but I don't belive that Bush is the incarnation of evil which many seem to think. Inept, yes. Stupid, definetly. Fundamentalist, you bet. In the pocket of corporate america, off course. But, not everything he has done is bad. The Aids initiative in Africa for instance is not bad. Event though, I think a lot of pharmaceutical companies will profit from that effort. I guess what I am trying to say is that I lack a bit of perspective and integrity. More facing reality and less strawmen attacks. From all sides.. Otherwise this election is going to be depressingly ugly.

BTW. Norway is alright....but, I would strongly suggest you come here in the summer. And come after 2005. We'll have a socialist government again. I hope :-)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. From Kerry's Side
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Thanks for the link....
I have perused the site for a while... Afterall, Kerry mentiones it in his speeches ;-)

But, seriously. When you need a new car. Do you make your decision based on a flashy advertisment, or do you prefer do utilise other sources?

I'll have another look at the Kerry website after he is confirmed as the nominee. I'll have to try anything to make me like him :-)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Good for you Kurt!
Thanks for looking in.
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Maybe someday he'll put it all on a bumpersticker
in a very tiny typeface
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. actually DK appeals more to the old school cons they are anti nafta/wtoand
even the texas gop has an anti nafta plank
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. and the big fed government /patriot act hating cons like him too
i have two oldschool repubs and few libertarians in the lockal kucinich for pres group because of his anti big gov and anti big corp record one lib says if DK dont get i am voting libertarian and then i also hear from the green people who are volunteering if Dk dont get it i am voting nader or green
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
15. Dear me, the repugs are being so hard on JK regarding
national defense and foreign policy. No doubt they will be gentler with JE. They will surely be intimidated by his experience with...well, his record as...hm.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Exactly
the foriegn policy colussus that is Edwards is making Bush'Cheney pee in thier pants.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. Oh, I forgot. Not only do repugs not care about foreign policy
experience, they LOVE rich personal injury attorneys.
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POed_Ex_Repub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
20. Apparently Kerry appeals to the left
For some reason Democrats seem to keep voting for him. He's not my first choice either, but so far he seems to be my party's choice.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
25. You forgot the important qualifier
My candidate would be more attractive to Republicans *who are satisfied or very happy with Bush.* (or whatever the exact CNN exit poll phrase was in WI)

At any rate I believe Kerry can/will attract a number of disgruntled independent voters with talk of fiscal responsibility and responsible foreign policy, as he has been doing. JK speaks w authority and thought-out plans, the other offers mostly warmth and empathy.

I just don't see anybody who voted for Gore last time voting for Bush this time.
I don't see as many voting for Nadir this time as did in 2000
I don't see as many who voter for Bush in 2000 voting for him this time.

For that reason I'm optimistic.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. I sense a revolution in the country that will rock both parties
and elect our Democratic nominee.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Yes, just imagine it!
:toast:
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