Will Obama's views on the immorality of gay marriage play better in SC...

[IndianaJones]

than it did in NH? I think the religious South will be more receptive to the message of McClurkin than the more progressive Northeast.

[AX10]

1. Oh yes they will.

[jlake]

2. Yup. Sometimes the cost of winning is just not worth it.

[jackson_dem]

3. Yes

That is why Obama's donnie mcclurkin tour was in South Carolina. It was no accident he had it in Carolina and not New Hampshire or Iowa.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

22. His pro death penalty stand will probably help there too nt

nt

[IndianaJones]

28. as a way for citizens to display their outrage? definitely. nt.

[Bishop Rook]

47. Probably not

Considering Obama was a strong and ardent fighter against the death penalty in Illinois, while Clinton went out of her way to reaffirm her support for the death penalty in her 2000 campaign, alongside her support for three-strikes laws (which Obama opposes, along with mandatory minimum sentences).

Are you sure you guys are supporting the right candidate here? You don't seem to know much about Senator Clinton's positions, nevermind Senator Obama's.

[IndianaJones]

48. Obama supports the death penalty in select cases and sees it...

as a way for society to show its outrage.

[Bishop Rook]

51. Which is well to the left of Clinton's position

http://pewforum.org/religion08/compare.php?Issue=Death_Penalty

"Clinton has been a longtime advocate of the death penalty. Clinton cosponsored the Innocence Protection Act of 2003 which became law in 2004 as part of the Justice for All Act. The bill provides funding for post-conviction DNA testing and establishes a DNA testing process for individuals sentenced to the death penalty under federal law. As first lady, she lobbied for President Clinton's crime bill, which expanded the list of crimes subject to the federal death penalty."

And, the full context of the Obama quote is:

"While the evidence tells me that the death penalty does little to deter crime, I believe there are some crimes--mass murder, the rape and murder of a child--so heinous that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment. On the other hand, the way capital cases were tried in Illinois at the time was so rife with error, questionable police tactics, racial bias, and shoddy lawyering, that 13 death row inmates had been exonerated."

Which is why he fought against the death penalty, whatever his personal beliefs about when it should be applied, because he knew it wasn't being applied fairly. I don't agree with him on this, and I don't support the death penalty in any cases whatsoever, and I don't believe the justice system should ever be looked at as a system of punishment but rather a system of isolation and reform... but you have to at least recognize that Clinton is more pro-death penalty than Obama.

(On edit: you'll note Edwards supports the death penalty too.)

[IndianaJones]

52. death to express outrage is well to the left? lol. nt.

[Bishop Rook]

72. Good link-clicking there

But I'll do your research for you, then.

"Those men who dragged James Byrd behind that truck in Texas -- they deserve the death penalty. And I think there are some crimes that deserve the ultimate penalty," (Edwards) said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10620-2004Feb26.html

In 1994, President Clinton signed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act that expanded the federal death penalty to some 60 crimes, 3 of which do not involve murder. The exceptions are espionage, treason, and drug trafficking in large amounts.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=15&did=411 (Note: this is the crime bill that the then-First Lady lobbied strongly in favor of)

While Obama, on the other hand, personally believes in the death penalty only in the very limited cases of mass murder and the rape and murder of a child, to quote his examples, and even then he fights to make the system more limited because it cannot be shown to be fair and unbiased.

Edwards and Clinton support the death penalty whole-heartedly, Obama supports it only with great reservation. How is that being blocked from your mind?

[IndianaJones]

75. those are two examples he gave of heinous crimes. there are many other heinous crimes.

to say he is to the left when his belief is that the death penalty is a suitable way for a society to express outrage in any case is ridiculous. It is a center right view.

[Bishop Rook]

79. But your candidate AGREES WITH IT

In fact, your candidate wants to extend it to far more crimes than Obama does.

Of course the death penalty is not a suitable way for society to express outrage, but ALL THREE CANDIDATES SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY, how can you not possibly comprehend this? I never said Obama was to the left of me, or to the left of your average DU poster, what I said was, he was to the left of Edwards and Clinton, who both support the death penalty more than he does. Disagree with him as I might, he's the least of three evils.

[IndianaJones]

86. Obama supports the death penalty as surely as the others.

His statement that it is an acceptable manner for society to show outrage places him no where near the left. For me, that is not a bad thing.

[DURHAM D]

4. Duh....

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. Where does Obama say that gay marriage is immoral?

:shrug:

[usregimechange]

9. Notice no one replied to your question...

[ruggerson]

15. I think it's because people have provided the quote

a hundred times and it just gets rationalized away.

[IndianaJones]

19. they know...they don't care. nt

[usregimechange]

42. It was provided so many time you couldn't find it?

[IndianaJones]

53. its been provided numerous times. read the mans book. nt

[ruggerson]

59. Here you go - now I expect you will rationalize it or just slink away

"I'm a Christian, and so although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman"

http://after-words.org/grim/mtarchives/2004/09/Sep242301.shtml

[Clintonista2]

65. The amazing thing is that his denomination of christianity SUPPORTS gay marriage

[ruggerson]

69. bingo

His national church - UCC - supports marriage equality.

We don't know if his particular congregation is "open and affirming" as they refer to it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

67. That doesn't say it's immoral

You're the one who's rationalizing.

[ruggerson]

74. lol

Do I win the door prize for knowing exactly how you would respond?

The religious right uses the EXACT same language: Marriage is between a man and a woman. They're rightwing evangelical buzz words. They mean just what they suggest: same sex marriage is immoral.

[IndianaJones]

78. c'mon..the Bible saying something is wrong isn't the same as saying its immoral. nt.

[Bishop Rook]

83. The Bible never says gay marriage is wrong

In fact, it never says anything about gay marriage at all. It does do some definition of what marriage is, though. Beyond that, it's a matter of different individuals and different denominations interpreting those rules more or less loosely than others.

If only government would get out of the marriage business altogether, this would all be so much simpler... Civil unions for all, and if you wanna have a ceremony at whatever church floats your boat, go right ahead.

[ruggerson]

89. I'm fine with that and I agree with you

but that's not Obama's position.

You guys would be far better served by saying, "ok, he's pandering on this issue to a religious constituency. No politician is perfect, they all pander occasionally, and I completely disagree with him on this."

But, instead a lot of you twist yourselves into contortions trying to defend the indefensible.

[IndianaJones]

93. then what does Obama mean when he references his religious traditions...

in his opposition to gay marriage?

[alcibiades_mystery]

108. meh

It says what it says. It doesn't say what YOU say it says. So, you are not convincing me.

And the whole "I knew what you were gonna say even before you blah blah blah" is just childish and stupid. It's not particularly difficult to predict, since the quote doesn't say what the OP implies.

[Bishop Rook]

76. I enjoy the occasional pork chop

Indeed, he never called it immoral. He said only that, in his religious views, marriage is defined as between a man and a woman. Should I, therefore, consider myself personally affronted if a Jewish politician mentions that as part of his religious beliefs he thinks it is forbidden to eat the flesh of a pig?

Now, if that politician then went on to start making laws banning the consumption of succulent pig-flesh... That would pose a problem.

In this case, since that's not happening, and in fact Obama wants to loosen restrictions on gay marriage... I see not the problem.

[IndianaJones]

80. He opposes gay marriage based on his religious values...there is no...

loosening of restrictions on civil rights.

[Bishop Rook]

87. Good night.

You're a real testament to your candidate. It's like smashing one's head repeatedly against a brick wall. Including the blinding headache afterward.

In the meantime, maybe check some of the links I posted here and in other threads, and figure out what your candidate actually stands for, so you'll stop criticizing Obama for standing for the exact same thing. It's rather unsightly.

[IndianaJones]

94. Read your mans book. the chapter on Faith. nt.

[ruggerson]

85. No, he oppose civil marriage equality because of his religious beliefs

In your analogy, it is akin to the Jewish guy saying I can't support a law that would let everyone eat pork, because my religion tells me not to eat pork.

But I'm in favor of Fake-Pork (tm), which tastes almost exactly the same.

[Bishop Rook]

100. If Obama were trying to legislate his beliefs

Then he would support Bush's attempt to legislate the definition of marriage into the Constitution, so that the more liberal states in the country would not be allowed to perform gay marriages.

But that isn't the case. In fact, he opposed that legislation.

President Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act, which legislates the definition of marriage into our legal code, if not our Constitution, and makes it very difficult for states to legalize gay marriage. If Obama were trying to legislate his beliefs, he'd support DOMA.

But that isn't the case. In fact, he wants it repealed.

The repeal of DOMA will allow married couples from other states to, at least in some cases, move to a new state and have their marriage recognized, even if the new state they move to does not perform gay marriages. Which is good; because with that restriction, you'd see a lot of gay couples moving from their home states to the states that practice gay marriage, meaning there'd be fewer gay voters in the states that don't allow gay marriage. Allowing them to go get married then come back without losing their benefits will greatly aid the "domino effect" of one state after another legalizing gay marriage.

And Obama supports civil unions, of course. It's not quite the same, as you say--Fake-Pork (tm)--but it's better than nothing, and it's the first of several steps in the right direction.

The only thing Obama isn't fully committed on is drafting legislation which would force all states to legalize gay marriage--marriage currently being handled as a state, not federal, issue. If he did go that far, you could very well argue that is when he'd be trying to legislate his beliefs... or, in that case, our beliefs.

I wouldn't make that argument, personally. Equal protection under the law and all that. But the point is, while his stance may not be perfect and ideologically pure, Obama is a great ally of the LGBT community in the active steps he does want to be taken--specifically, repealing DOMA and legislating civil unions, both of which are positive steps.

Of course, Senators Clinton and Edwards are also great allies of the LGBT community, because all three of them have an effectively identical platform on this issue.

Thanks for at least being willing to interact and discuss.

[ruggerson]

103. I don't have much of a problem

with where the three of them stand on specific LBGT issues. I wish they were courageous enough to support marriage equality as an ideal, but they all think they will get crushed politically if they do so. I think they underestimate the American public.

My problem with Obama is his using religious rhetoric to justify what should be a secular matter. Civil marriage can occur at the courthouse, tjey don't have to occur at a church - many people simply get married by the government. He doesn't have to use a religious argument to back his opposition to CIVIL same sex marriage. But he does. Couple this with the exploitation of anti gay sentiment in South Carolina and we've got a bit of a problem. He clearly has cynically pandered to one constituency at the expense of the humanity of another. It's not a capital crime. Politicians do it all the time, it's pretty mundane and routine. But, he's running on a message that proclaims he is not a typical politician. He's running on a message of unity and brotherhood and then uses gays in a cynical way to divide people, to DIS-unite them. All he needs to do is to take an hour or two to acknowledge this error and to make it right to gays and lesbians. I don't think he's a bad human being, I think he made a bad decision.

[musicblind]

107. A+

Thats a REALLY good analogy; I really like that. Mind if I use it sometime?

[Bonobo]

6. Does Obama believe it is immoral? I would love to see the quote. Thanks for the link!

[ruggerson]

66. Here:

"I'm a Christian, and so although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman"

[TankLV]

7. His disgusting pandering will do him fine there...

[AtomicKitten]

8. Ah, because those aren't Obama's views, and I think you know that.

Red herring alert!

[ruggerson]

10. There are no gay black people in South Carolina

None. They've all been moved to an island off the coast owned by Patti LaBelle for the duration of the primary season.

[IndianaJones]

16. He referenced his religious traditions to explain his opposition to gay marriage.

If that doesn't say he thinks its immoral, I don't know what does.

[Bishop Rook]

29. So what's Hillary's excuse?

Since both she and Obama have the exact same position--guarantee civil unions, leave marriage up to the states.

[IndianaJones]

30. Don't know...hasn't bragged about it in a book yet. nt.

[sandnsea]

11. When all else fails, drag out McClurkin

How predictable.

But this isn't a phony political hammer, nah, not a bit.

[zulchzulu]

17. I would have...

...called it flamebait, but nothing gets done here about this kind of crap anyway...

[FrenchieCat]

12. so full of shit, so little time.......

hey?

Hurry up!

[AX10]

18. Thank you for telling us what Obama is made of.

;-)

[FrenchieCat]

34. Know....its the desperation that is sickening.

What if Hillary would have lost New Hampshire? she better be glad she saved it...no matter the cost. Cause in Hillary world, no price is too small.

[AX10]

35. Your comment makes no sense.

[sandnsea]

13. Oh, and when did he say it was immoral? n/t

[Bishop Rook]

14. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Since you, like all of us, know that Obama's and Clinton's positions on gay issues are effectively identical. Support for civil unions but not gay marriage; supporting ENDA; supporting strengthened hate-crimes legislation; pushing for increased AIDS funding and research...

Disgusting.

[Renew Deal]

20. Hillary should talk about how Bill signed DOMA to counter it.

[IndianaJones]

24. maybe she'll bring that up in SC to pander to some bigot votes. nt.

[Renew Deal]

25. Wouldn't surprise me.

[IndianaJones]

27. we'll see....meanwhile, we know Obama will do it. nt

[Renew Deal]

31. I don't think Obama will bring up Bill signing DOMA

You never know.

[IndianaJones]

32. if he could claim credit. definitely trot out the ex-gays though. nt.

[madrchsod]

26. noooo!!!!! say it isn`t so..

st clinton actually did this? what am i going to tell my grandchildren?

[madrchsod]

21. i need some help...

i`m sure that his views on the immorality of gay marriage is that they should burn in hell as those wicked citizen`s of sodom and gomorrah did ..but i can`t find a link...

[IndianaJones]

23. no..just references his religious traditions in explaining his opposition.

no comments on punishment.

[JohnnyLib2]

33. I don't think the answer to your question is available until SC votes.

No doubt there will be plenty of noise about the matter, but.....?

[msongs]

36. obama's statement on the federal ban gay marriage amendment: -

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060605-floor_statement_5/

he says marriage is between a man and woman but it should be left to the states.

he objects to it being used BY THE REPUBLICANS as a campaign tactic at the time.

Msongs

[IndianaJones]

37. Obama cites his religious traditions as basis for opposing it. nt.

[msongs]

38. yes let's all obey obama's religious beliefs shall we? nt

[IndianaJones]

39. why not? nt.

[msongs]

40. why should everyone in this country have to kowtow to obama's religion? nt

[IndianaJones]

41. he is for change? nt.

[bluedawg12]

43. Not everyone- just the Religious right and that, as they say

is enough for votes.

[Bishop Rook]

44. Nobody's asking you to

He cites it as the reasoning why he, personally, Barack Obama and he alone believes marriage should be between a man and a woman. He does not believe in legislating that belief, which is why he opposes DOMA.

Do we have religious litmus tests in this country now? Here I thought we got past those sometime around 1789.

[Occam Bandage]

45. Nope. Obama believes homosexuality is inborn and not immoral, and is in favor of gay rights.

[IndianaJones]

46. why does he cite religious traditions in opposition to gay marriage? nt.

[Bishop Rook]

49. Instead of repeating that another dozen times

Why don't you post the quote, so we can all see what you're actually talking about? For the record, Obama's church is not anti-gay. They're the ones who put out this ad campaign, which you may have seen or heard about before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_Still_Speaking

In any case, even if Obama does not personally believe in gay marriage, what does that matter if he's willing to set aside his own beliefs and advocate for gay rights and GLBT causes?

[IndianaJones]

50. he cites his religious traditions to explain his opposition to gay marriage as policy.

Thats not setting it aside. lol.

[Alexander]

54. Quote please?

Oh right, you don't have one, because you are a bullshit artist.

[IndianaJones]

56. I thought it was sock puppet. nt.

[Occam Bandage]

55. No, he doesn't. He cites them to explain

his personal feelings on the matter, not his policy positions.

[IndianaJones]

58. He doesn't support it and cited religious traditions in a radio interview. nt.

[Occam Bandage]

60. To explain his personal feelings on the issue. In every interview I've heard, he was very clear

that he kept his personal feelings out of the matter. And FWIW, he is against a federal ban of gay marriage.

[IndianaJones]

63. Federal...leave the bans to the states. He is not for gay marriage based on religious tradition.

Its very simple.

[Occam Bandage]

68. Where has Obama stated he wants to see state bans? Quote please.

[IndianaJones]

71. obviously he does not....he simply says that marriage is between a man and woman...

cause the Bible says so, and let the states decide.

[Occam Bandage]

73. So then "leave the bans to the states" was a lie, then, wasn't it? Hardly your first.

[IndianaJones]

77. hardly the first time you've expressed your disdain of civil rights for gays in defense of Obama.

But, if his let the states decide in combination with his objection to it based on his religious morality are better for you...have at it.

[Occam Bandage]

84. Another lie. I've not breathed a word against civil rights, nor have I

approved of Obama's stance. I've simply asked you not lie about it.

[IndianaJones]

88. I think there are people here that know better...although they may not count as full citizens..

to some Obama supporters.

[Occam Bandage]

91. You're right; I don't consider concern trolls to be full DUers.

[IndianaJones]

95. thats one way to marginalize minorites. I'm sure Obama would be proud. nt.

[Occam Bandage]

96. And I'm sure Clinton is proud of your little swiftboat here.

By the way, fucker, I'm bi.

[IndianaJones]

97. Not knowing your sexuality, I refrained from using homophobe as a descriptor.

But you marginalize minorities well in your spirited defense of Obama.

[Occam Bandage]

98. I haven't marginalized anyone, excepting liars.

[IndianaJones]

99. you've parsed and justified his words, knowing the pain and anguish it causes...

to a group that does not enjoy civil rights in order to see him win an election. You know he is using an ex-gay pastor to garner homophobic votes in SC. His own words state that he opposes same sex marriage on religious grounds.

You can call me a liar...but I'd never sell out my own community.

[Occam Bandage]

102. If your concern is real, then why not make a case without lying or distorting?

[Bishop Rook]

101. So am I, for what it's worth (nt)

[Bishop Rook]

57. What opposition to gay marraige as policy?

What are you talking about?

Do you understand that he opposes DOMA? That he wants to see it repealed?

Do you understand that there is absolutely no difference between Obama and Clinton's policy stances on this issue? If Obama opposes gay marriage, then so does Clinton!

In reality, what Obama opposes is federally mandating legalization of gay marriage nationwide. Again, we disagree on that issue, but all three of the Democratic frontrunners are effectively identical here. At least Obama was willing to engage in self-reflection:

I'm open to the possibility that my unwillingness to support gay marriage is misguided ... I may have been infected with society's prejudices and predilections and attributed them to God.

From The Audacity of Hope

[IndianaJones]

61. include the quote from the previous paragraph...

"She knew when she decided to support me that I was opposed to same-sex marriage, and she had heard me argue that, in the absence of any meaningful consensus, the heightened focus on marriage was a distraction from other, attainable measures to prevent discrimination against gays and lesbians. Her phone message in this instance had been prompted by a radio interview she had heard in which I had referenced my religious traditions in explaining my position on the issue."

The continued excuse of this man for using an ex-gay pastor to pander to homophobic voters is almost comical. His acceptance and use of this man is tied directly to his views on homosexuality derived from his deep religious background.

[ruggerson]

62. He may think it's inborn but he's clearly said his religious beliefs

prevent him from supporting marriage equality.

http://after-words.org/grim/mtarchives/2004/09/Sep242301.shtml

"I'm a Christian, and so although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

[Occam Bandage]

70. On a personal level. It says nothing in there about a political level--indeed,

he states that he avoids having his personal beliefs affect his political position here.

[ruggerson]

82. But this is what he uses for his justification to oppose it in the political sphere

HE says it quite clearly.

From the Tribune story:

"Democratic U.S. Senate candidate Barack Obama said Friday that his Christian beliefs dictate that marriage should be between a man and a woman, although he supports civil unions that give legal rights to gay and lesbian couples."

So his Christian beliefs don't let him support same sex marriage in the political sphere, but he supports civil unions.

It's pretty clear. He uses a religious justification to oppose civil laws which would permit same sex marriage.

[IndianaJones]

90. they know that. they don't care. nt.

[Bluebear]

104. Then why did he hire an anti-gay act to host his concert?

Talk is cheap.

[CyberPieHole]

64. Obama's pandering to bigots will get him all of the homophobic bible thumper's votes...

I, for one, hope he chokes on them.

[IndianaJones]

92. it may well work down south. nt.

[fightindonkey]

81. Obama: Treat Homphobes With Dignity And Respect, They Don't Know They're Wrong

Fuck him!

[magatte]

105. I am sure you truly believe that he is a homophobe. You Phoney!

Fuck him? NO Fuck you!

[JTFrog]

106. More desperation? And here I thought your girl was picking up the pace. ROFLMAO! n/t

[sampsonblk]

109. Yes

No question.

[LanternWaste]

110. That's a bit vague...

That's a bit vague... Obama's views, or McClurkin's views?