I'm so sick of the hate and vindictiveness --

[DeepModem Mom]

Tweety's hatred of Hillary, visited once again just now, as he started his show. Vindictiveness among fellow Democrats on this board, from supporters of all candidates.

I'm the proposer of the DU Obama Group, and was thrilled with his soaring success in Iowa. But it's turned sour for me as it's turned into an opportunity to kick a woman when she's down. (If that's sexist, so be it.) To pile on -- even to pile on in tandem.

I'd like to express my appreciation to all here who extend human kindness to all of our candidates, and who treat supporters of all candidates with courtesy and respect.

I've been here too long to know that things can or will, or maybe even should, change. But like an Olbermann "Special Comment" that has to come out whether anything is changed or not, I had just a few words that had to come out.

Carry on.

[goldcanyonaz]

1. This forum has quickly become close to being a right wing tool in the defeat of Clinton.

[Gman]

12. Close to it???

this place IS a right wing tool to defeat Clinton. I wrote about it a few weeks ago:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Gman/61

[goldcanyonaz]

15. Thanks Gman! You're spot on.

[ronnykmarshall]

38. Oh come now ..

This place is so warm and friendly!

:sarcasm:

[Gman]

43. In off-election years!

maybe non-presidential election years too.

Then again, the way people trashed the Democratic congress this past off-election year, I'm not real sure anymore.

[ananda]

14. Much of this forum is definitely rightwing..

.. but that's how the country in general
has moved.

Obama has moved significantly to the right
since 2004, and Clinton is as rightwing as
they get.

We are going to get a rightwing Dem president,
I think.

The only consolation is that he won't be as bad
as Bush.

[Gman]

25. Sorry, but

I don't think you would know right wing if it bit you on the butt.

[LostinVA]

56. Neither Clinton nor Obama are RW

[HughMoran]

21. I was thinking the same thing today

I didn't know how to say it...

[LostinVA]

55. Exactly -- it's horrible

It isn't debate or even screaming arguments: it's bashing and lies and intimidation and using DRUDGE, POLITICO, and other RW sources as fact.

The worst thing, for me, is seeing some longtime DUers whom I've always liked and respected falling into this.

No, I'm wrong: the WORST thing is having all HRC supporters on here being labeld "Hillbots," etc., and trying to be shut down. Actually, ANYONE who protests the garbage are accused of this.

[Hieronymus]

65. Hillary is far to the right of Edwards and Obama.

[ArkySue]

70. Compare voting records

then tell me that.

2005 Energy Bill with huge tax breaks for Big Oil:
Obama- Yes
Hillary- No
Roberts Confirmation:
Obama- Yes
Hillary- No
Gen. George Casey Confirmation to Chair of the Joint Chiefs:
Obama- Yes
Hillary- No

Otherwise, Obama's and Hillary's voting records are the same.

[niceypoo]

68. Many of Obama's 'supporters' are most likely republicans

who use their supposed support of Obama as a platform to attack the object of their obsession. Sadly, the real Obama supporters join in with wreckless abandon.

I really liked Obama as a candidate, but his supporters act like animals. They are pompous, They lie, they smear, they taunt, they hate, they personally attack other DUers. They have turned the DU into a sewer. It is definately souring me on Obama. The Obama supporters here act exactly like republicans.

[Adelante]

It's all so larger than life

She teared up, she didn't have a breakdown. I do it all the time (sometimes both).

[maddezmom]

4. I do it quite a bit just reading DU

and sometimes I'm laughing my ass off in between. :hi:

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. Oddly, no one is thinking of her as a weak female for doing it, but instead

are scared shitless that it's going to have an effect in her favor. Strange as it may sound, I think that shows that our perspectives have changed quite a bit in thirty years, for the better. I don't have a problem with a candidate showing a little emotion.

[Catherine Vincent]

2. Did you just witness Matthews and Hillary hug each other?

Wow!

[maddezmom]

3. fine words DMM

things are getting a bit crazy around here. :thumbsup:

[DeepModem Mom]

73. Thanks, maddezmom.

:)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. If she can't stand the heat...

you know the rest.

[Jade Fox]

54. You mean "If she can't stand the hate" don't you?

because that's what she's getting.

[Tom Rinaldo]

64. This isn't just about Hillary

Hillary can take the heat. No one has proved that more emphatically than her. She had Ken Star and 60 million dollars worth of Federal prosecutors hounding her for three years. She was accused of murdering a family friend, she stood by her husband when he was impeached and she lived through the nightmare of seeing the entire nation talking about his blow job with another woman. She can take heat.

But if our board becomes ugly, should we just leave it to those who make it ugly or should we speak up about it?

"I'm Tom Rinaldo and I approve of this thread".

K&R

[Auntie Bush]

66. I can't stand the heat around here!

So I've been ignoring DU lately and do other things. Things that I should have been doing anyway. But all the hate and unfairness around here makes it easier to get over my addition to DU. See ya around............maybe.

[Gman]

6. Given a choice between 3 excellent candidates

the woman is being piled on and left out. People don't even realize it when they're doing it. They subconsciously gravitate to one of the men. There's nothing progressive about attacking Hillary. If people have an issue with some of her politics, that's one thing. But the vicious attacks are completely unwarranted. Bush isn't attacked like Hillary is being attacked here.

My disgust is complete when I hear Rush and Hannity attack Hillary during the day (We have no AAR in this area) and then I read the VERY same attacks here that evening.

The fact is there is no good reason for not supporting Hillary. There just is not.

Kyl/Lieberman... these so-called Obama supporting progressives won't even address the fact that Obama was absent for that vote. They dissemble when reminded that Kyl/Lieberman very explicitly prohibited it as being interpreted as an authorization for an attack on Iran.

They're not progressives. Some may think they are. I think many are troll freepers on their assigned mission to be sure Hillary does not get the nomination in order to get the one the RW wants: Obama.

And they attack the woman.

[goldcanyonaz]

10. Gman, excellent post!

[indimuse]

36. spot on!!!

"They're not progressives. Some may think they are. I think many are troll freepers on their assigned mission to be sure Hillary does not get the nomination in order to get the one the RW wants: Obama."

Then it's Obama's turn...
:eyes:

[Yuugal]

44. Is your post any better?

"The fact is there is no good reason for not supporting Hillary. There just is not."

Here is a good reason for not supporting Hillary: NAFTA and the DLC corporate shills who still pump that bs. I want corporate greed and influence to stop running our govt(and infiltrating our party) and she has her pockets stuffed with corporate cash. Why would working class union families like mine want to vote for the DLC? DLC = Clintons = Nafta in my mind. Please feel free to tell me why that shouldn't be.

"They're not progressives. Some may think they are. I think many are troll freepers on their assigned mission to be sure Hillary does not get the nomination in order to get the one the RW wants: Obama."

Thank you for negating my whole life spent supporting my union, civil rights, and always voting as progressive as possible within the Dem party. Here is a newsflash, Hillary is NOT a progressive, she is a centrist.

"And they attack the woman."

Finally something we can agree on. When DU was hating on Hillary's politics, I was happy because she is not progressive enough for me. This latest "cult of personality" thing going on here at DU is scaring me though. The attacks are coming fast and furious and they are all related to twisting of her words or just outright personal attacks.

You are not going to get that to stop unless you stop doing the same thing. Get out there and shill for your candidate not by screaming vote my way or you are a traitor to the party, but by explaining how she has changed her views and people like me shouldn't consider her a corporate shill anymore. Part of the reason she is losing is because her supporters always lean towards screaming "sexist" rather than actually answering the questions about nafta, the dlc, and corporate cash.

[Gman]

58. There is nothing you can tell me about being a union member

that I haven't already done including being a Clinton delegate to the 1992 Democratic Convention in NYC and attending the AFL-CIO caucus every single day.

Hillary has a whole slew of union members and officials supporting her at this time. These people are not stupid, nor are they naive. I read with amazement today about 7 of 35 AFSCME e-board members that were upset because AFSCME had endorsed Hillary and they felt Obama was being attacked by AFSCME. They also accused Gerald McEtee of just wanting access to a Democratic president! WELL......

DUHHHHHHHH!!!!

. No shit, Sherlock. I would want my international president to be able to pick the phone and get the President of the United States with one phone call to fix a problem. That's what I pay my friggin' union dues for and why I contribute to COPE! DLC and all that alphabet crap the "progressives" hate? Fuck that!

For that matter, you have absolutely no idea how great and close a relationship Bill Clinton had with organized labor. You have absolutely no idea the things Bill Clinton did for labor. Ever heard of a guy named Robert Reich? I can't begin to do justice to the great things he did as Labor Secretary under Clinton. Personally, I know what I'm getting with Hillary for president and that is a great friend of labor as president.

Your union apparently doesn't do a good job of educating it's members. If it did, you would know the #1 issue you vote on as a union member is your paycheck and your benefits. The war, and all the other stuff is secondary if you can't put a roof over your family. It's against my principles? You can't eat principles.

Of course, here at DU, labor is pretty much frowned upon by these so-called "progressives". Never could figure that out and I've been trying for 30 years. I think it's because progressives are jealous of the power labor has in the Democratic party that they don't.

[Yuugal]

60. more of the same

"There is nothing you can tell me about being a union member that I haven't already done including being a Clinton delegate to the 1992 Democratic Convention in NYC and attending the AFL-CIO caucus every single day. Hillary has a whole slew of union members and officials supporting her at this time. These people are not stupid, nor are they naive. I read with amazement today about 7 of 35 AFSCME e-board members that were upset because AFSCME had endorsed Hillary and they felt Obama was being attacked by AFSCME. They also accused Gerald McEtee of just wanting access to a Democratic president! WELL...... DUHHHHHHHH!!!! No shit, Sherlock. I would want my international president to be able to pick the phone and get the President of the United States with one phone call to fix a problem. That's what I pay my friggin' union dues for and why I contribute to COPE!"

The problem that needs fixing is NAFTA and the DLC influence on our party. You can save the chest-beating about your union creds for someone who gives a shit.

"DLC and all that alphabet crap the "progressives" hate? Fuck that!"

Eloquently put. You know nothing about it, so fuck it right? You sound about as union as my sneakers.

"For that matter, you have absolutely no idea how great and close a relationship Bill Clinton had with organized labor. You have absolutely no idea the things Bill Clinton did for labor. Ever heard of a guy named Robert Reich? I can't begin to do justice to the great things he did as Labor Secretary under Clinton."

You have no idea how close a relationship the Clintons have with corporate cash. Unions have suffered under NAFTA, and Bill and Hillary were a team, remember? Oh wait, you have a job, so screw everyone who doesn't......a common Hill-shill theme. Those may have been YOUR glory years, but for millions of Americans who lost their jobs to outsourcing, SOMETHING HILLARY IS STILL A STRONG SUPPORTER OF, those years were a total bust for the working man. I'm sure the union leadership did well for themselves. Once they leave the shop and head into an office with a title, they usually forget where they came from and become the same kind of elite they pretend to fight. The proof is in the pudding: if you were right, things would be great for labor these days. You are wrong and our manufacturing base is almost completely gone.

BTW, it was our local's president who all wanted us to support Clinton over Perot. Turns out Perot was right about that "giant sucking sound". Those DLC types assured us this would be great for labor and that we were entering into a new era of cooperation with our corporate masters. Wrong and WRONG. He ended up with a cushy job at the international's office, we got the pink slips. Keep shilling for them if they help you get paid, just don't ask me to pretend reality doesn't exist so I can live in your worldview of how great things were for labor after NAFTA.

"Your union apparently doesn't do a good job of educating it's members. If it did, you would know the #1 issue you vote on as a union member is your paycheck and your benefits. The war, and all the other stuff is secondary if you can't put a roof over your family. It's against my principles? You can't eat principles."

Ah more insults. Gee, you don't sound very union. You sound like Al From. The rest of that paragraph is mostly correct and thats why the last thing anyone of my union family is going to do is vote for the same people who brought us NAFTA. I didn't mention the war or "any other stuff", I mentioned the DLC, NAFTA, and corporate cash because they are all related. Thanks for ANSWERING NONE OF MY CONCERNS. Here is what I said, care to try again?

"Part of the reason she is losing is because her supporters always lean towards screaming "sexist" rather than actually answering the questions about nafta, the dlc, and corporate cash."

"Of course, here at DU, labor is pretty much frowned upon by these so-called "progressives"."

Thats because some haven't lost their jobs yet. Nothing makes a "go along to get along" democrat into a working class progressive faster than the unemployment line.

"Never could figure that out and I've been trying for 30 years. I think it's because progressives are jealous of the power labor has in the Democratic party that they don't."

Maybe you need to have your job outsourced like many in my family. Then you would understand how making backroom deals with corporate types in exchange for campaign money hurts the working man. When I say working man, I do not mean union leaders because they goto the same cocktail parties every other elitist bastard goes to in this country. The working class doesn't get invited to anything because we are just human crops for fast talkers to harvest, whether they call themselves union leaders or mgmt.

Progressives are upset that jobs for the working class are all at Burger world with no benefits and close to minimum wage. Next time you and Mr Reich get together, tell him to kiss my ass. Hillary doesn't stand a chance this year because she doesn't even know the working class exists. If she did she'd be apologizing for NAFTA and repudiating the DLC. Instead she is ignoring those issues and so are you. Hillary is going to go down in flames because no one on your side can explain away her positions on outsourcing our kid's futures.

[paulk]

72. spot on.

:toast:



-------------------------------

[SharonAnn]

45. Yes, it's very interesting how many people want to "dismiss" her and her candidacy.

Sigh. It seems that some things just don't ever change.

Women are more than 50% of the population of this country, and as a majority we should at least be entitled to equal respect.

But, everyone's piling on Hillary. Some things just don't change.

[musicblind]

49. gman -- VERY good post

[NC_Nurse]

7. I agree. I was appalled at the debate when they discussed her "likableness".

Completely inappropriate and distasteful. I felt that Obama's "likable enough" answer was pretty much of a dis too.
So much for "hope" and unity.
I think the whole process has become like another stupid reality show. "Who Wants to be President?"
Nobody with any sense of self preservation and dignity will want to subject themselves to such a low brow contest.
We might as well start looking for candidates on Jerry Springer type shows. :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[aquart]

9. Come on, now. He's a uniter, not a divider.

But the only ones he plans to unite with are the Republicans.

[NC_Nurse]

17. And the deeply religious...don't forget them.

I like Obama, but I have serious reservations about his religious pandering. Yuck.

Edwards is always angry, but nobody seems to be able to deal when Hillary gets angry. WTF?

All the poo-flinging has sort of soured me on all of them.

:(

[aquart]

18. Primaries do that.

Politically, they aren't far apart so they can't really argue policy. It has to go to this stuff.

[aquart]

8. Oh, but it's not because she's a woman.

It's because of her policies and because they don't like her. Her sex has NOTHING to do with it.

And if you buy that, I'll throw in a bridge, cheap.

[Quixote1818]

28. So how do you explain all the Dean and Kerry bashing that went on

four years ago? This isn't the first time a candidate has been torn to shreds on DU. I would wager that Dean got hit harder than Hillary.

[karynnj]

33. He's still bashing Dean and Kerry

He's usually ok when Kerry is on with him, but I think that's because Kerry controls the conversation very very well.

[DemCam]

52. Ha! so verra verra obvious.

[Yael]

11. And not just what is coming out of the Clinton camp.

Its invaded DU too.

:scared:

[Quixote1818]

13. It's campaign season. It happens every four years.

Once we have a candidate everyone unites and we see the best in everyone. Thats human nature.

[road2000]

22. Yes, I saw that to be true

in 2004. There was a lot of pre-Kerry mud-slinging at another site where I used to hang out regularly.

Much of this might be avoided if Gore were in the race, IMHO.

[Joe the Revelator]

16. This is what happens when the frontrunner falls. It has nothing to do with sex

You need a thicker skin.

[juajen]

30. Bullshit. I was here four years ago. It was nothing like now.

Hillary has been subjected to abuse from so many on DU that I honestly feel it is an attack on a female, and an attempt to derail her by republicans. I now trust no newbies, and anyone under the age of 30. So you youngies might as well know you're highly suspect.

[Quixote1818]

34. I would wager than Dean was attacked more viciously than Hillary

With Dean it never ended!

[LostinVA]

57. Great post

[Donnachaidh]

35. Hogwash

The postings are flying thick and fast from the Obamites about HRC being weak, etc. I wasn't really thrilled with the snark coming from the Clinton crowd, but the Obama followers are REALLY getting shitty on a grand frigging scale. And I'll bet they'll set to howling about how they are picked on when and if Obama stumbles before the GE.

Hypocrites.

[robbedvoter]

19. It makes me feel sorry for her - and I didn't want her to win

[grace0418]

20. I'm not a Hillary supporter by any means but I too cannot believe how nasty and

spiteful people on this board are being to ALL of the candidates (at least the ones they don't support). I just had someone in another post say John Edwards had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to offer. It struck me how strange it was to hear so-called lefties speaking in such absolutes. I'm not sold on John Edwards either but I hardly believe he has NOTHING to offer. Good grief. Open minds are a thing of the past I guess.

[DemCam]

50. I am a Hillary supporter

And it is sickening indeed what is posted here. I just keep wondering...
who are these vicious posters? Are they us? I'm afraid they are...as much as
those sent from the right-wingers.

And historically, I'm so sorry to say, it's what keeps the "good woman" from
putting her neck on the block...and what makes us put the tag-line before a
positive statement..."Now I'm not a Hillary supporter... but I really liked..."

Guess we're not there yet for women...tho we're close. Oh, so very close.

[grace0418]

74. I think I know what you're saying but I wanted to clarify that

I'm very much there for women, just that Hillary is not my choice. It has nothing to do with her X chromosome. Just her positions.

[fadedrose]

24. Please don't

Don't compare your post with Keith Olberman. He knows the background of the parties he's criticizing. Do you?

Do you know the difference between the DLC and the DNC?

[DeepModem Mom]

39. After over 30,000 posts at DU, the vast majority of them news articles...

I am uninformed about very little that is discussed here. I did not compare my post to KO -- I compared my own need to speak to his need to speak, irrespective of subject. My criticism was directed at Chris Matthews, neither DLC nor DNC -- and people who lack human kindness and respect, regardless of their political views.

[fadedrose]

41. You seem like a very nice person

I get tired of people getting accused of being "right-wingers" because they don't like or sympathize with Hillary Clinton.

Most of her critics are extreme left-wing posters so we are sensitive to being called that nasty name.


As has been pointed out many times, there's a difference between the DLC (Leadership) and the DNC (National). The DLC fought Howard Dean when he was running and tried to prevent his being named head of the DNC after he lost. They have different agendas. The DNC people have seen and been the target of so many dirty tricks pulled by the DLC that we can't accept their candidate, ie, Clinton. We are not right-wingers....please.

[DeepModem Mom]

62. I see where you're coming from now, fadedrose.

Since I hardly ever dip into candidate-war threads, I wasn't aware of the accusations you mention. I AM aware of the strong opposition (to the point of ridicule) from many to Howard Dean as DNC chair. They, IMO, are dead wrong; he's a great chairman. Otherwise, I'm not as sure as some in my view of how our party should go about trying to win elections (although I don't think it's the DLC strategy).

Thanks so much for your post.

[LostinVA]

59. Who do you think you are to talk to DeepModem Mom that way???

Even when I don't agree with her, I respect her. SHE'S earned her liberal cred. Have you? Who the heck ARE you? Apologize to her for your insults.

And, your post proves her OP to a T.

[davidwparker]

26. people need to develop thicker skins. everybody has their preferences and

are posting to pursued. you should have seen us come together on the official threads when the 'cons were debating.

like Edwards said, if he isn't the nominee, he and Elizabeth will be fine. So will the Clintons. So will we.

[AtomicKitten]

27. It isn't out of spite or vindictiveness that some people are dubious about this.

She is the author of that doubt, and I won't apologize for it. It's very, very difficult to feel sorry for someone that has run such a mean-spirited campaign only to dissolve into a puddle of jello or the stage version of that. You reap what you sow.

I don't appreciate the brow-beating that goes on around DU when people don't fall into lockstep and agree with THE opinion, whatever the hell that is because that changes from day to day.

I wonder sometimes at all the threats of boycotts around this place, only to find a month later all is forgotten.

Backbone: I don't just want it in the candidates, but I want the electorate to throw in this time and stop letting others tell us what to think.

[BeyondGeography]

32. As an Obama supporter, I am comfortable in the knowledge

that the abuse we would be taking from the Hillaryworld crowd right now were she to be running up the score on Barack would be exponentially worse than anything that is being inflicted on them here.

[AtomicKitten]

40. When a campaign lowers the bar

of civility and decorum by interjecting "Muslim" and "cocaine/dealer" (that's what I call REAL hate and vindictiveness) into the conversation over and over again polluting the discourse, it's pretty difficult to feel sorry for that person dealing with their own blowback.

And I especially don't like people campaigning for just letting it slide. I will not turn a blind eye.

[sandnsea]

29. Awwww, don't be mean to the "little woman"

How sexist is that?

[indimuse]

31. Thank you..

I agree..DU has most definatly been infiltrated..it's non stop. I know..I've been sick in bed for a couple weeks and witness from early morning to early morning..(lol) the vile and really senseless attacks. Dems don't act ike this.


Now I admit....there have been on occasion I have retaliated with posts..but when I came here this was not my intent.


:eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:

[nancyharris]

37. I agree completely DeepModem Mom

But it should come as no shock. People here treat all political opponents with no sense of respect. They are so used to vilifying Republicans they oppose they have not the wit to measure their remarks when it come to Democrats they oppose. Sadly, DU is a political forum that has no respect for politics.

[libbygurl]

42. Sad legacy of the right-wing talk radio viciousness and divisiveness of the last...

...decade that has contaminated even this board of late.

[ElizabethDC]

46. Thanks, DeepModem Mom. I thought I was the only one who felt the way you did

I mean, I'm a Hillary supporter, so I know I'm biased, but I feel that there has been even more nastiness aimed at her on this board over the past few days. Probably in the media, too, but I'm out of the country and haven't really been paying attention to that.

I know you don't post your thoughts very often, DeepModem Mom, or maybe I'm just accustomed to seeing the news articles you post, but your words mean a lot.

[DeepModem Mom]

47. Thanks for your post, Elizabeth.

And you're right, I rarely post my own thoughts. I post news articles almost exclusively, to inform and, politically, to give supporters of all candidates an idea of what's out there in the press. I almost always post without comment, so DUers can respond with their own thoughts, and don't wish to be viewed as posting articles with an agenda in mind.

[ElizabethDC]

48. I really appreciate that you do that

it's nice to get some unfiltered info around here every once in a while! :)

[no name no slogan]

51. GDP is like a circus, but with uglier freaks

It's the last place I expect reasoned political discourse

[Beausoir]

53. Thank you for this post. I respect you very much. Today has been the ugliest day on DU that I can

recall.

I just can't believe what I have read here today.

[Auntie Bush]

67. Thank goodness I wasn't on DU today, till now , and missed the ugliness

I'm glad I missed it and I can just imagine what was said! Sad thing is...the media is pretty ugly too. So I listen to a lot more music these days.

[bagimin]

61. I agree we have 3 strong candidates

but everybody acts like there's is the only one and this place has turned into "Edwards Underground".
bummer.

[JI7]

63. DeepModem Mom the OBama Group has not been used to bash Hillary

in fact there aren't even that many posts on that forum about Obama. and nothing on Hillary.

[DeepModem Mom]

69. Oh, no, I didn't say that. The Obama Group has not at all been used in that way.

I just identified myself as part of the Obama Group to indicate that I was an Obama supporter.

And you're right -- especially now that 2008 is here, I think most candidate discussion is not in Groups, but here at GDP, and even in GD.

[Cameron27]

71. Thank you so much

the ugliness is almost impossible to deal with, and the sexism is worse. What the media's been doing to one of our own, shouldn't be a cause for celebration, even if we don't support him/her, and even if it benefits someone we do support. It's just not good for the party in the long run.

Thanks again DeepModem Mom.

[Evergreen Emerald]

75. I am right there with you.

I am so happy for Clinton. She has put up with so much shit in America.