There is an extremely serious point to be cleared up here regarding the "McClurkin Affair."

[Tyler Durden]

I posted this in GD, but like anything else with "substance" and and not a potential flame fest, it's dying while the flaming continues on other threads. Read it if you like. I'm starting not to care anymore.

Barack Obama has stirred an enmity that seems to require clarification. I know that as a Straight White Male of 55 I'm pretty close to being everyone's asshole, but I am also an atheist, an ex-hippie, and a Vietnam War Protester, so that DOES make me sort of part of a minority.

To the issue:

The "Donnie McClurkin Affair" is still STRONGLY resonating. The reason for this is the absence of any comments from Obama not just distancing himself from the blatant Religiously Homophobic comments of McClurkin, but the absolute disavowal of the bigoted nature of these comments declaring homosexuality an evil that Jesus had cured him of.

Mind you, as a side issue, it must be remembered that McClurkin was making these comments while he was doing exactly what Obama said he would not be doing, that is, acting as the Master of Ceremonies for an Obama supporting event.

To understand the depth of this feeling, one must have a sense of discrimination on a basis that is part and parcel of the person who is the victim of such discrimination. This should be obvious to any woman, black person, "hippie", anti-Vietnam war protester from 197x, or, as in this case, a gay man or woman. There isn't any way to describe being marginalized, other than to experience it; but there is actually a worse situation: to have this crime MINIMIZED by someone who has not experienced it, does not recognize it or otherwise. To have the feeling that one's suffering was "...no big deal..." is so hateful that you have to experience it to understand it. I have.

To expect LGBT people to go along with the "big tent/'...no more identity politics...'" excuse without so much as a comment is worse than nonsensical; it is naive.

This being said, it is acknowledged that any Republican Nominee is completely unacceptable to LGBT people (with the exception of the Log Cabin Republicans. I can't understand them either). It is also acknowledged that as some were going to "hold their nose" and vote for certain other Democrats should they be nominated, it is completely illogical to expect LGBT people to do anything else should Barack Obama become the nominee without showing his support for their community. The same is true of us not of that community but in solidarity with it.

We shall not "call you out" on what is perceived as your tolerance for bigotry, no matter how close to the margins it is, but you on the other hand must not expect that your "...oh come ON, it's not that bad..." or "...don't you see, he NEEDS South Carolina..." rationalizations will be welcomed with anything less than scorn.

Despite the somewhat Pollyanna feelings of a few, this is shaping up to be a most contentious and possibly divisive nominating and election process here on the Democratic side of the fence. Early in the process, candidates have come very close to burning bridges and perhaps it would be very wise of their supporters to use kid gloves when dealing with the groups on the other sides of those bridges still smoldering.

Here endeth the lesson.

[fudge stripe cookays]

1. Good post.

I'm still waiting for him to say something, ANYTHING about the whole issue. Obama lost me and a lot of others with that idiotic move.

I'm a straight married white female, and I love my gay friends a lot. I won't vote for anyone who pulls this kind of crap.

[sandnsea]

2. He Has

"I have clearly stated my belief that gays and lesbians are our brothers and sisters and should be provided the respect, dignity, and rights of all other citizens. I have consistently spoken directly to African-American religious leaders about the need to overcome the homophobia that persists in some parts of our community so that we can confront issues like HIV/AIDS and broaden the reach of equal rights in this country.

I strongly believe that African Americans and the LGBT community must stand together in the fight for equal rights. And so I strongly disagree with Reverend McClurkin's views and will continue to fight for these rights as President of the United States to ensure that America is a country that spreads tolerance instead of division."

~ Barack Obama
10/22/07

[hulklogan]

4. This statement does not confront the issue.

He has yet to explain why he hired McClurkin to MC a campaign event if he so strongly diagrees with him. The problem that I had with the McClurkin Affair was in no way related to HIV/AIDS in the African American community!

We're still waiting for you to address the actual issue, Senator.

[sandnsea]

5. Because he's a popular religious singer

That's why.

And his statement addresses equal rights as well, which you choose to ignore because the goal is to trash Obama in order to support Hillary. Viva la Diva!!

[hulklogan]

10. Obama says he thinks African Americans and the LGBT community should stand together

for equal rights. But the closest he's willing to stand to the LGBT community is 50 yards behind us. He doesn't support full equality for LGBT Americans, the furthest he's willing to go is to work for a "basic set of rights". I don't want a basic set of rights, I want 100% full equality. How hard is that for Obama, Clinton, and Edwards to understand?

The sooner the Obamanauts understand that many people who don't support Obama also don't support Clinton or Edwards, the sooner they will return to reality.

[sandnsea]

13. The fulls set of rights marriage gives

That's what he's said. He also introduced discrimination legislation in Illinois so it's just ridiculous to say he doesn't care about gay rights.

The sooner people understand this was all a Clinton campaign strategy, the sooner they can quit being duped into attacking someone who has stood up for gay rights and continues to.

[Tyler Durden]

20. EXCEPT to call it a marriage.

AND except to disavow McClurkin's speech. DISTANCING is NOT DISAVOWAL.

You don't get it, do you? EQUAL RIGHTS are EQUAL RIGHTS, period.

I'll bet you don't even KNOW any gay people. If you do, ask THEM.

[sandnsea]

26. No leading candidate supports gay marriage

So why is this only an issue against Obama??

[riqster]

120. Kooch supports them

...yeah, I know, he is not 'leading'. But there ARE Dems who DO support civil rights for all of us.

[hulklogan]

21. So Clinton infiltrated the Obama campaign and hired McClurkin herself

and she's the one who wrote Obama's statements that show that he just doesn't 'get it'?

Separate but equal is not equality. We've seen over and over again how having "the full set of rights marriage gives" still doesn't give GLBT Americans the full benefits of marriage.

[sandnsea]

28. She hired homophobes on her SC Campaign

She pays the homophobe, Darrell Jackson, $10,000 a month. Every leading Dem candidate supports civil unions.

:shrug:

[hulklogan]

46. And that's why I don't support any of them in the primary. n/t

[Tyler Durden]

12. GEE, that's a GREAT reason to hire a homophobe.

Why not just hire someone to bash MUSLIMS while you're at it.

Who gives a fuck about Hilary? I don't. My God is EQUAL FUCKING RIGHTS FOR EVERY GOD DAMNED AMERICAN.

I think there's something called a "constitution"? Says something about that.

You really need to WAIT a while. Some of us still haven't forgiven him, and may never do so.

[sandnsea]

15. Hillary hired homophobes to run her SC Campaign

Nobody has even asked why she did that.

[Tyler Durden]

23. If you keep going back to HILARY to non-Hilary supporters....

...you're going to get IGNORED.

PLEASE, get the message. This has NOTHING to do with Hilary, and you are pissing on people you want eventually as allies.

Not a smart tactic.

Go somewhere, and be nice to a gay person. or an atheist.

[sandnsea]

29. Where is the attack on ANY Dem who hires homophobes?

If this is so all-fired important, why isn't there a call to get rid of ALL the homophobes connected to campaigns? Start the thread. Go on, I dare you to care about EVERYBODY who attacks gay rights.

[Tyler Durden]

37. That's it.

I plan on writing a little "missive" to the Obama campaign about his supporters and their inability to quit rubbing shit in their fellow democrats' faces.

You really don't know what you're doing to people, do you? Very Sad.

[sandnsea]

42. I'm exposing the truth about the hypocrisy

Too bad if people can't handle it.

[Tyler Durden]

45. NO, you AREN'T

and your self righteousness about it is annoying.

You and I have agreed before: take my advice, and stop this. There is PAIN here and you are making it WORSE.

[sandnsea]

52. The pain is from the Truth of the Hypocrisy

And you know it. There's no more pain from McClurkin than there is from Hillary's Homophobes, and there's a truck load of them.

[Tyler Durden]

61. HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY

HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY
HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY
HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY
HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY
HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY
HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY HILARY

You know something? After talking to you, I'd be hard pressed to support Obama even in the general election.

You make an even better negative campaigner than the rePukes do.

[sandnsea]

64. HOMOPHOBES HOMOPHOBES HOMOPHOBES

Where are the thousands of threads about the rest of the HOMOPHOBES in the Democratic Party?

[Tyler Durden]

72. Sorry it has to be this way.

First time it's been personal.

[sandnsea]

73. I'm scared now

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

76. "Tell me Obama is NOT A CORPORATIST"

Yep, hypocritical politics to trash Obama. Using gay people for political purposes, THAT is what is revolting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2589338&mesg_id=2589655

[Tyler Durden]

77. I've ignored you. feel free to do the same.

You are pissing on people I love for POLITICS. Go bash Hilary somewhere people will give a damn.

Don't you get it? I don't like ANY of them, but the OBAMAGASM on this site was particularly hurtful.

[Politicub]

105. The Exgay movement is more damaging

than homophobes, in my opinion at least. I don't expect you to understand why, but I continue to try and explain. Exgays empower those people who believe being gay is a choice, giving them ammunition to make their gay brother's, sister's, children's, etc. lives a living hell. And when these people can not change, they start to hate themselves. And this is reprehensible to me.

[Tyler Durden]

111. Even more important, and I thank you for reminding us all. n/t

[fudge stripe cookays]

6. That was the 22nd, before the event

Supposedly then, they were saying McClurkin was just going to emcee, and his views would not enter into it.

Well they did, at the event around October 29th.

Obama should have made a public statement about this issue right afterward distancing himself from this source of controversy. He doesn't seem too concerned about it.

Where's THAT statement?

[sandnsea]

8. He has made his position clear

It won't matter what he says, it will be picked apart because this is about trashing Obama to support Hillary. If it were about homophobes connected to campaigns, people would be livid about the truck load of homophobes on Hillary's campaign. Don't bother to give the talking points, I've heard them. This is about Hillary, the gay icon, viva la diva, and nothing more.

[Tyler Durden]

14. I Don't Support Hillary.

You really need to get off of this. You're pissing on people you should just let heal for a while.

[sandnsea]

16. Too bad, people piss me off when they post this shit

And they piss off a lot of other DUers too. When Hillary is slammed for her homophobes, then I'll believe gays really care about homophobes on campaigns. Until then, it's all primary politics.

[Tyler Durden]

19. YOU really need to back off.

I'm getting TIRED of saying this to people.

There are WOUNDS here, and you, along with the other Obamaites are pouring SALT in them .

Wait a fucking week or two before you proselytize about Saint Barack to those who feel he has marginalized them.

This has NOTHING to do with Hilary. I was a Kucinich supporter.

[sandnsea]

24. It's been two months

Nobody is pouring salt into anything, that's ridiculous. Somebody said Obama hadn't made a statement, I posted that he had. How is that salt?

You're a Kucinich supporter. Maybe you don't know about the homophobes running Hillary's SC campaign. Maybe you don't know gays think Hillary is a Diva and have concocted this gay outrage to trash Obama. Maybe you don't know the hypocrisy of it all. I am not going to shut up about it. You can't intimidate me into shutting up about it. When Hillary is trashed for the homophobes that she is PAYING, then I'll worry about WOUNDS.

[Tyler Durden]

27. You really don't get it, do you?

Nobody gives two shits if Hilary hired BUSH.

Hilary sucks ass for hiring homophobes. Are you happy?

GOD, you just don't get it.

[sandnsea]

32. Exactly, NOBODY GIVES TWO SHITS

Because it's all about supporting Hillary the Diva. YOU don't get it.

[fudge stripe cookays]

36. Again with the Hillary.

Are you deaf in addition to being increibly strident and obnoxious? Neither Tyler nor I support Hillary!!

[sandnsea]

40. Why don't you care about ALL homophobes then?

Huh? Why do you pick and choose which homophobes to be concerned about?

[fudge stripe cookays]

44. I am concerned about all homophobes

But most homophobes don't run for president.

[sandnsea]

50. Hillary's Homophobes Are SC Co-Chairs

By your standards, she's a homophobe too. Why aren't you asking for her statement?

[fudge stripe cookays]

57. BECAUSE I'M NOT VOTING FOR HER EITHER!!

Jesus...DROP IT! Nobody on this thread cares about Hillary!

[sandnsea]

58. This is about Her HOMOPHOBES, not her

I'm sure you do want me to drop it because there's no excuse for not attacking Hillary's Homophobes.

[fudge stripe cookays]

59. This has nothing to do with Hillary.

It has everything to do with the fact that I considered Obama someone I might support, and he lost me on this issue.

Hillary doesn't have to clarify anything to me because I never considered supporting her in the first place. :eyes: I have my own reasons for hating her.

[sandnsea]

63. I posted his statement, his civil rights legislation

and it's not enough for you. If you cared about homophobes, you'd care about ALL homophobes, and you don't. That's the point.

[riqster]

121. I support Kucinich, I think Obama has fucked this up.

[fudge stripe cookays]

33. And you were incorrect.

He said that before the event because of the potential controversy that was being murmured about.

He has NEVER distanced himself from the remarks that McClurkin made that he was not SUPPOSED to be making.

Your attitude and these posts are half the reason I hate coming to DU during primary season.

[sandnsea]

38. So you think he suddenly agrees with him?

He said he disagreed with his views, and you think he suddenly agrees with them now?

The hypocrisy of DUers on a variety of issues has always bothered me. This is just one I refuse to let stand.

[Tyler Durden]

80. You and me both old friend.

Stay warm.

[fudge stripe cookays]

82. Roger.

:hug:

You did not deserve this. Ignore is our friend. I have a feeling my list is going to grow exponentially in the next few weeks.

[hulklogan]

25. The militant heterosexuals must be feeling empowered after Obama's "Iowa Triumph" n/t

[Tyler Durden]

31. Everyone keeps talking about "Hilary did it," and excusing the action....

They are sabotaging their own candidate by NOT SHUTTING UP aren't they?

[sandnsea]

35. I HATE HYPOCRITES

I do not care where they come from, I cannot stand liars and hypocrites. The attack on Obama on this matter has been the most hypocritical attack this primary season.

[Tyler Durden]

41. Why are you still doing this?

Do you have any idea how many people are holding their noses to support ANYBODY?????

You are hysterical and need to shut down for a while. Obama is not god, he is not the best or the worst in the field, and you need to go get happy with some fellow supporters, before you do some damage.

[sandnsea]

47. This is about HYPOCRITES

I can't stand hypocrisy or liars, I just can't. I was just as pissed at very good friends who supported Imus. It makes me physically ill.

If homophobia were the issue, then Hillary's homophobes would be an issue too - and they're not. HYPOCRISY.

[Tyler Durden]

51. AGAIN with Hilary.

WHO HERE GAVE ONE IOTA OF SLACK TO HILARY ON THIS ISSUE?

Show me.

This was about Obama, and his faux pas.

[sandnsea]

55. Where's the threads?

Show me the daily threads on Hillary's Homophobes? Where are they?

[Tyler Durden]

62. You're incredible.

If I were less rational than I am, after talking to YOU, I wouldn't even vote for Obama in the election. I'd abstain.

I won't, because I'm not stupid. But you are pushing the envelope. This is not about Hilary. FUCK Hilary.

[sandnsea]

65. It's about HOMOPHOBES

ALL homophobes. If one bothers you, they should all bother you. Where's the threads?

[Politicub]

106. It's not about "homophobes"

It's about giving a representative of the ex-gay movement a stage and platform. It's time to dust off that old phrase Silence=death.

Gay teens get kicked out of their home for being gay. This still happens, even in 2008. The ex-gays contribute to this, and that is why I hate them.

I don't hate Obama, but he pissed me and much of the gay community off with McClurkin. And he may not fully understand why, but I wish he would try and understand why this f-ing hurts so much.

[fudge stripe cookays]

22. I DO NOT SUPPORT HILLARY.

Give it a rest. Not everything is a contest between Hillary and Obama.

[Tyler Durden]

11. So HERE is where I can find you.

Lost my best friend on earth to HIV/AIDS in 1985 thanks to Reagan. He won the "Miss Norfolk" drag contest the year before, or maybe 1983.

RIP Kelly.

[Little Star]

3. k&r

[Onlooker]

7. This is a ridiculous double standard

Obama was of course wrong to include Donnie McClurkin in a campaign event, but it's no different than any outreach programs by candidates to the Catholic Church, fundamentalist groups, etc. Should we say to candidates that you can campaign with Catholics who fail to distance themselves from from the Catholic Church? I don't think that is realistic. To be president, like or not, you need a broad-based coalition. Obama himself has a fine record on gay rights, and unlike Hillary, he has called for the full repeal of DOMA.

[Tyler Durden]

17. I suggest you talk to some gay people, if you know any.

This is a BIG SORE SPOT, and you aren't helping with an "everyone has to do it" angle.

Hell, I'm not even GAY and I hate him for his "Fundy Fest" because I'm an atheist tired of MY rights being pissed on.

You really need to let people heal a bit, or they'll NEVER be on your side. This is NOT the time for proselytizing.

[Anouka]

71. You're a straight atheist -- is this about gays, or about the church?

Where were your rights infringed upon and pissed upon, in all this? if I may ask.

[Tyler Durden]

112. Any man is diminished, I AM DIMINISHED.

As is the LGBT community where over the years I have had many friends, lost many friends to "Reagan's Plaque", and learned true tolerance and exceptance.

This is about BIGOTRY, and you should be standing with me.

[Anouka]

118. Why only men? No, I can't stand beside you.

I thought the period of using men as the default is past. It's bad enough to live in a world where 'white' is the default, when one is not white. I hope there not a gender battle beneath this after all, given the make up of most black churches and who would be the majority of the attendents at that event.

The irrationality I see is towards Obama, from certain members of the gay community. We're not going to agree on this.

I'm sorry your friends died, be it from crack cocaine, the explosion of gang violence, AIDS or an unknown (whichever plague from those years you meant). But I'll believe the gay community is truly tolerant when I see it --

and by that I mean, an embrace of their brothers and sisters and neutrals of color. It ain't happening. It's not happening now. It didn't happen when it should, during McClurkin. It didn't happen in the 80s (I've never experienced the divisions between white and non-white, monied gay and non-monied gay; perhaps you have more experience with what really was happening though). It doesn't appear to be happening anytime truly soon, given the ENDA situation.

Things can still be fixed between the gay community and the black community, the atheist community and the believing community. I believe. It takes true tolerance, and that means making a first step when someone else is not making the step you expect -- and doesn't even know that they are supposed to make that step.

So, why not the gay community?

You have friends within it still, I take it? perhaps you can explain their reluctance to do so.

[Tyler Durden]

124. You do not get it.

I saw the Panthers take their hate into their souls when "whitey" took his fear out on them.

The Gay community does not hate or dismiss people of color; quite the contrary: they have LEADERS who are people of color, and there are LGBT people of color HERE who see this as an issue of Sexual Bigotry.

There is no color in the Gay community. Kelly was a black man.

We in these communities tolerate as a means of SURVIVAL. What we DO NOT do is tolerate those who wish our moral destruction because we are, in their eyes, intrinsically evil.

You're missing the point here friend. Sexual Orientation and Religious Identity (or the lack thereof) cuts across all lines, especially color lines. We reject NO ONE who does not want us dead or damned. That is an extremely reasonable and non-negotiable point of view. We do not wish them ill; we simply do not wish them our demise, and we do not offer it.

I feel badly for you that you do not understand this.

[Onlooker]

95. I am gay and atheist ...

... I no more agree with his use of religion and the decision to include McClurkin than I agreed with Dean's defense of people who drive around in pickups with confederate flags. But, those issues are not the most important by far. Those are symbolic issues designed to broaden the candidate's base so that they can win. DOMA is far more important in that it's not symbolic, but can have a practical effect on achieving equality.

[quinnox]

9. Obama should just apologize

I don't understand why he thinks throwing gays to the wolves is ok for his campaign.

[Tyler Durden]

18. Because if he DOES, he loses the Black Fundies.

Period.

[Anouka]

43. Those weren't fundamentalists. They were protestants, mostly WOMEN.

So why not say, "because if he does, he loses the black women"?

The black church experience and the white church experience are not the same, specifically because of the history of the black church to American blacks (as opposed to caribbean blacks, blatins and African blacks, I suppose). Where many whites seem to revel in talking about 'there is no god' and 'god is a primitive belief' and 'the bible is a book of fairy tales'.......... that doesn't sell in the general black community. It's offputting. It's offensive. It denies the healing and the position of the black chuch within the black community.

There are indeed ways to attack the black church successfully. But how you're going about it isn't one of them.

I think perhaps some of you all need to realize that. In general, blacks are not going to overlay themselves and their beliefs on top of you; please don't do it to the general black community.





Now, what would you like to see of churchgoing protestant black women, towards the general gay community, in regards to this issue, Tyler?

[Tyler Durden]

49. TOLERANCE.

And ACCEPTANCE.

Nothing more than what they would expect for themselves.

This has nothing to do with "...the church experience..."

I'm an atheist, and get no respect from EITHER of those two groups.

[Anouka]

68. black women are tolerant of the gay pastor, choir director and beautician. Not the gay down low.

Black folks are a hella tolerant people. You have no idea (or maybe you do, Tyler).

Black women are sick of the down low.

If you want to win this one, use the Bible.... and help stand all black men up to succeed and be home providers so that the 'black male shortage' is a myth and not a reality for many church-going, sunday-faithful straight black women.

The Bible is your friend, in this case -- if you're willing to read it. You'll understand why it has everything to do with 'the church experience' -- that, and the church's history in the black community since the Civil Rights Movement and slave days.

Tolerance on your own part, instead of expecting it as a one way street from others to you, is your better friend.


May I ask, though, at what point you embraced atheism? Do you interact well with non-atheists (theists or agnostics)? or ignore their company?

[Tyler Durden]

114. I became an atheist at the age of 8.

And I know a much MORE tolerant and understanding group, even though my friends in SNCC were FAIRLY tolerant of the "White Boy," and that is the LGBT community.

The Down Low is not their problem. CLOSETED black men are their own problem. The LGBT community and the atheist community NEVER have asked for anything but equality and tolerance, and at this VERY late date, will settle for nothing less.

And if the Church Going Community you describe wishes THEIR rights respected, then they had best read their own books, as I have so many times and remember:

1Cor.13
<1> Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
<2> And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
<3> And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
<4> Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
<5> Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
<6> Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
<7> Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
<8> Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
<9> For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
<10> But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
<11> When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
<12> For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
<13> And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

[Anouka]

30. If I remember correctly, many gays were saying no apology would be enough.

I remember at Daily Kos, some African-Americans were asking what apology would be enough, if his pro-gay statements before McClurkin used the opportunity himself were not enough?

I remember the answers. Some said they wanted McClurkin off the tour, regardless of what that would do to the black church-going community when it came to the appearance of 'whites are telling us what we can and can't do again'. More self-identifying gays were concerned with saying they'd never vote for him than with explaining what they would accept as an apology and a peace offering.

But maybe enough time has passed since then.





What apology would be enough, from Obama to gays? What does the general gay community want at this point, since McClurkin can't be taken off a tour which isn't currently happening.

And has the white gay community and black gay community come together finally? or is one side still ignoring the other until it's expedient to pay attention?

[Tyler Durden]

34. How about ANY apology?

Try it. Haven't heard one yet.

[Anouka]

60. Obama issued a statement he strongly disagreed, then added a (white) out gay preacher to the program

Obama did also, however (per Pam's House Blend):

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3451

"UPDATE: check out this coverage of the event. Rev. Sidden, the white gay pastor recruited to go before the crowd, didn't address the issue at hand: "Sidden's appearance was notably brief and anti-climactic: He said a short prayer to the auditorium at the very beginning of the program, when the arena was only about half full, and then he left." McClurkin also dodged comment on the anti-gay statements he's made in the past, or allegations that he's not exactly "ex-gay" any more. Even worse, in a NYT article, Obama gave a video welcome at the concert, where he declared McClurkin one of his favorite singers and said nothing about homophobia in the religious black community. Way to go."


so no, I can see where that's not going to be enough to the general gay community, and I apologize to you for that.


I do want to ask, does it offend you when Pam referred to Sidden as 'the white', or is that a non-issue in all of this to you, by the way?

Anyway, what's also important is this:

"The other ironic thing was that as she went on her tirade, I recognized a few of the faces going into the concert as those belonging to gay black men I knew. As more attendees went in, I recognized quite a few more gay black men. And let me tell you from the start that these men were not going into this concert looking to embrace McClurkin's message of being "delivered." ****These men probably went in, clapped loudly, danced in religious ecstacy . . . and then went back home to their psychological closets.**** ...For every so-called religious statement coming from her mouth, I could hear closet door after closet door slamming shut. I could see even more black gay men (many of them married) trolling down the streets in the darkness of the night looking for a physical fix because they have been bamboozled to think that a quick thrust in the dark is all they deserve as gay men."

Leaving the question of the closet alone, why were these gay black men attending and supporting an ex-gay pastor in the first place for religious ecstacy?

If he's that odious, I mean, to gays.

What outreach has the general gay community given these black and gay men, in the days and months after McClurkin -- since they're not getting it from churchgoing protestant straight black women?


General gays want an apology?

I think something else is going on, here, more important that's not being addressed. An apology is not helping those men. It will not help them out of the closet.

What approaches has the general gay community made? what approaches would the general gay community have made if the expected apology had been produced?

I honestly don't maybe. Maybe some outreach has been done in the past couple months. That needs to be in the news more, don't you think?

[Tyler Durden]

66. I think the first move is Barack Obama's.

There is where the offense originated.

VERY simple. HE owes the apology, and frankly, I think he believes this will just go away, so it's his waiting game.

[Anouka]

69. No more tug of wars for an inch of mud.

What is the gay community doing in the black community to make an apology an exercise in fertility instead of futility?

Because an apology without action is just WORDS.


When someone isn't doing what you want them to do, you don't wait on them you take action yourself. If the gay community is in the black community showing that they are not demons, not bad people, not out to infect the black family with AIDS and HIV, not out to tear black men away from black women, not out to sexually abuse children........ if the general gay community is in the black community as an out presence, an apology suddenly means a lot more. It means a lot more.


As it is, it just looks like white folks trying to command black folks, and then leaving. Unfinished business except the business of bowing and scrapping.

But again, that's just my opinion and my point of view. To me it matters what the general gay community has been doing BESIDES waiting for an apology. Well, are you a member of that community?

What has it done?

[Tyler Durden]

74. I don't understand here:

"When someone isn't doing what you want them to do, you don't wait on them you take action yourself."

No, when an apology is required, beating it out of the one who needs to apologize makes it meaningless.


"If the gay community is in the black community showing that they are not demons, not bad people, not out to infect the black family with AIDS and HIV, not out to tear black men away from black women, not out to sexually abuse children........"


Not their problem. So it's the Black community's problem to correct the issues in the minds of those prejudiced against THEM for silly nonsense, like all black men are criminals and want white women? Stupid.

"If the general gay community is in the black community as an out presence, an apology suddenly means a lot more. It means a lot more."

You have it backwards. Sorry. The offended do not have to cajole proper behavior from the offender.

Sorry you feel that way.

[Anouka]

91. The Civil Rights Movement worked that way. Gays want to hop that bandwagon, need to learn it too

Black people who sat and waited for white people to 'do the right thing' didn't get anywhere except being made 'the individual exception who proves the rule'. That's why the South was the mess it was.

Black people who were pro-active about changing hearts and minds -- and laws -- got change. It took decades, but they got that change. Those black people went to whites and formed coalitions with whites to get that change. It was not a lonely thing, even when it felt like it, it was a coalition.

Remember, the Civil Rights Movement led the Kennedys -- Jack Kennedy did not lead the Civil Rights Movement.

General Gays -- and athiests -- need to learn that lesson.

Reach out.

Hold out your own hand to bring both parties up.

You'll get what you want, and sooner, and better, in the end. Together.

You don't seem to care about that sort of thing, though. It doesn't seem to matter to you. Only the power play, and the breaking of the Church.

Did something bad happen to you, within a church? to hate the church?

[Tyler Durden]

110. I don't hate the church.

My current best friend is a local minister. We both participated in the Muslim Call to Prayer last fall at a joint prayer service.

We CAN change hearts and minds, BUT WE CANNOT FIGHT FUNDAMENTALISM TOO. As to the monstrously foolish stereotypes: was it the responsibility of the African Americans to march into the Klan meetings and rail against their bigotry?

This is 2007. I marched in 1968 through the War, and sat in for Equality. I'm sorry if I seem a little intolerant, but in my long war I have gained one intolerance: bigotry.

EQUALITY is now the law. It is NOT the job of women or blacks to convince some stupid redneck that he is out of step. It is time for the out of step to be STEPPED AROUND. If a group does not want to join the 21st century, I'm afraid THAT is going to have to be THEIR problem, but WOE to the politician who PANDERS to this group. THEY will not be forgotten, and if they must be supported to prevent the Republicans from keeping the presidency, they may rest assured that support will not survive if they do not change their way.

As to the antiques living in the 50's; I know people who were at Stonewall. I was taught by people who marched at Selma. I worked in SNCC, The Rainbow People's Party, the organizations of Bobby Kennedy, Eugene McCarthy, George McGovern. I'm sorry you believe the war must be re-fought for the sake of some intolerant Bible Literalists, but you're wrong.

We don't HAVE TO woo these people, and politicians who do had best remember they are not dealing with the Log Cabin Republicans.

[readmoreoften]

99. Uh, you should know that having a white gay speaker at a black event will go over

like a burp in a blizzard. The white guy was set to speak when the folks were still coming in. No one knew why he was there. It was a disaster. Black gay ministers asked Obama to speak. Obama's campaign chose a white guy. Why?

[Tyler Durden]

127. My Spin?

They WANTED to pander, and it would have lessened the effect of the Pandering to do it any way that would make a true statement.

[laststeamtrain]

39. K & R . Thanks for posting this. n/t

[IndianaJones]

48. Obama is a panderer...a very savvy and intelligent panderer. nt

[Tyler Durden]

53. My god. We agree on something.

[IndianaJones]

54. what? I changed my mind. nt.

[Tyler Durden]

78. Don't let sandandsea see your "HILARY" sticker.

She just couldn't see the hurt she was doing. This wasn't about Hilary.....She just wouldn't get it.

[NMMNG]

123. Hillary sticker or not

Some people will assume it's about Hillary, or try to turn it into Hillary. For some reason they can't believe we oppose what Obama did simply because it was wrong, not because we're shilling for somebody else.

[Tyler Durden]

126. Unbelieveably well put.

The weird thing is we can't even get our FRIENDS to understand.

[Rockholm]

97. Yes, he is.

[Nederland]

56. The "Donnie McClurkin Affair" is NOT STRONGLY resonating

If it were, Obama would not have trounced everyone in Iowa yesterday.

The real lesson: Not enough people care to make a difference.

Here endth the lesson.

[yardwork]

86. And because "not enough people care" that's a good reason to ignore it?

[Nederland]

96. Not at all

The fact that not enough people care is very sad. However, claiming that it is "resonating" when in fact it is not is lying to yourself and others. You can't solve a problem until you admit it exists. Denial is destructive that way.

[Bluebear]

107. Well it's "resonating" amogst gay people, certainly

[Critters2]

113. I know three gay people who caucused for Obama.

I guess they didn't get the memo.

[Bluebear]

117. What was their view over the McClurkin affair?

[Critters2]

119. Didn't discuss it with them.

So, I assume it wasn't too important to them.

[TheWraith]

67. Excuse me, but that is bullshit.

No, not your feelings. Your facts. McClurkin was NOT the master of ceremonies, he was a performer, and he did NOT make anti-gay remarks during the concert. That's a falsehood, but one repeated by everyone who seems to want to hold our candidates responsible for anything any supporter has ever said.

[yardwork]

85. You are mistaken. McClurkin was master of ceremonies - he announced every performer.

McClurkin spoke for at least a half-hour about his feelings on the subject of gay people needing to be "saved" by God during the concert. These are facts.

I don't know if you are genuinely misinformed or deliberately spreading lies.

[zulchzulu]

70. I find it bordering on McCarthyistic to attack Obama on the McClurkin incident

A guy plays at a concert in a small town and mentions how much he actually likes gay people and sings a couple tunes with three other bands and Obama isn't even there. The concert starts off with an openly gay minister who derides homophobia and Obama even sends out this statement:

"I have clearly stated my belief that gays and lesbians are our brothers and sisters and should be provided the respect, dignity, and rights of all other citizens. I have consistently spoken directly to African-American religious leaders about the need to overcome the homophobia that persists in some parts our community so that we can confront issues like HIV/AIDS and broaden the reach of equal rights in this country.

I strongly believe that African Americans and the LGBT community must stand together in the fight for equal rights. And so I strongly disagree with Reverend McClurkin's views and will continue to fight for these rights as President of the United States to ensure that America is a country that spreads tolerance instead of division."

http://pride.barackobama.com/page/content/lgbthome

Obama, with a legislative background of 12 years SOLIDLY being for not only civil rights for the LGBT community but for all people, gets trashed and is accused (along with his supporters) of being a homophobe and somehow not caring about LGBT issues.

So one concert with one guy singing for 45 minutes at a small town takes away 12 years of legislative proof that Obama has been working on?

It's as bad as Joe McCarthy calling someone a Communist because they might have attended one meeting at some local bar where a Communist sympathizer spoke for a few minutes. It's that simple.

I know a few gay people who are ardent Obama supporters and they know it is much adieu about nothing for the most part and was winded by the Hillary Clinton campaign as an "issue".

I'm going to start my own thread on this with links to the actual performance, opinions from LGBT leaders about the subject and Obama's track record on LGBT issues. Look for it.

Is Donnie McClurkin a jerk? Maybe. Should his concert performance at one event be the reason to trash Obama FOREVER as a homophobe? Yes, if you're desperate and want to proliferate the lie.

[Bluebear]

75. My god what a DISGUSTING post.

Of course you have me on ignore as you announced, but:

'A guy plays at a concert in a small town and mentions how much he actually likes gay people and sings a couple tunes with three other bands and Obama isn't even there.'

You know damn well it wasn't "playing" at a concert. He MCed the concert and gave an anti-gay sermon.
Also. Is bigotry acceptable if it occurs in a small town?

We're not desperate, but you surely are a callous apologist on this subject. But of course, I'm on ignore.

[Tyler Durden]

79. Not by ME.

I share your pain on this issue.

[Bluebear]

98. Certainly not, TD, to the irreducibly arrogant poster I address.

[IndianaJones]

81. The hypocrisy being displayed by Obama supporters on this issue is staggering. nt.

[zulchzulu]

88. Do Hillary supporters have anything to say about Mayberry and other homophobes on her site?

I didn't think so.

[IndianaJones]

89. I'm a Clinton supporter. I find them disgusting. And I don't think...

anyone should "lighten up" regarding them.

[zulchzulu]

93. So where is the outrage from those who bash Obama for McClurkin's one performance?

Not only are several declared homophobes ON Hillary Clinton's website, but some are on her payroll. I could dig up the details, but it's all here:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/zulchzulu/101

Yeah, I've seen it all here on DU regarding this "issue". Having done work for LGBT issues FOR YEARS means nothing to some of these thankless assholes here. Pointing out the obvious hypocrisy to those about the McClurkin issue are met with being called a homophobe.

Like I stated, it borders on McCarthyistic fingerpointing in my view. Obama made his point regarding this issue and has a solid record of being for LGBT rights for a dozen years.

Sure, the South Carolina Obama campaign didn't do the Full Purity Vetting on McClurkin, who has performed for the Clintons and others.

Would I have allowed him to perform on that ONE NIGHT with three other bands? No.

Does it make me a homophobe or make Obama a homophobe? If you're on a mission to make shit up and lie about the event for political gain, I guess it's a plan. :crazy:

[readmoreoften]

101. You've been explained this before. Quick! Who'll protect you from the gay fascists?

What are you going to do? Someone is trying to hold your candidate accountable!!!! PANIC! PANIC!

[maddiejoan]

102. yeah, I do

She doesn't invite them to go up on stage at her events and spew their homophobic filth in an effort to pander to bigots.

Hope that helps.

[TankLV]

108. absolutely - but I've come to expect it from the idiot bigots here...

sad thing is, they don't even realize they're bigots...

[hulklogan]

83. Is this another militant heterosexual pushing their radical agenda? n/t

[yardwork]

87. You probably think that the ACLU is a communist organization.

Do you find it McCarthyistic when people are prosecuted for burning crosses on their black neighbor's lawns? I suppose it's McCarthyistic to complain when somebody burgles your house. We're all supposed to just sit back and take it, right, because anything else would be McCarthyistic.

[zulchzulu]

94. Your knuckes must hurt from dragging them on the ground

I am a member of the ACLU. Are you?

[readmoreoften]

103. Of course her knuckles are dragging. She's one of those gay animals who challenge your candidate. /n

[Tyler Durden]

115. Then shame on you.

I'm a member as well, and I'm ashamed of you.

[readmoreoften]

100. It's people like you who make me rethink voting for Obama in the general. You're a disgrace to your

candidate.

[Bluebear]

109. You said it.

[NMMNG]

122. Hear, hear

If the DU Obama supporters are any indication of what Obama stands for and what he'll bring to America as president, I don't want any of it. And from what I've read of Obama supporters at the Iowa caucuses, they're a similar breed.

[avrdream]

84. Thank you for being so thoughtful about our feelings.

I'm posting this late and so I get to see a bunch of "ignored" remarks. Whoever it is (I have 3 on ignore) is someone I ignored previously because of their total lack of understanding about issues like this.

Unfortunately, you are seeing the same thing.

[yardwork]

90. This thread is awesome for two reasons.

First, the OP is spot-on.

Second, it attracted everyone I needed to put on ignore into one thread.

[fudge stripe cookays]

92. .

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[Bluebear]

116. :)

[Politicub]

104. Amazing post

You hit the nail on the head.

It isn't just about homophobia. It's about propping up folks like McClurkin who cause gay youth and others to hate themselves for what they are.

And that is unforgivable.

I'm a gay yellow dog democrat, but the McClurkin flap takes the potential wind out of my sails for Obama.

[ripple]

125. Perhaps you should post fact, not fiction

The reason for this is the absence of any comments from Obama not just distancing himself from the blatant Religiously Homophobic comments of McClurkin, but the absolute disavowal of the bigoted nature of these comments declaring homosexuality an evil that Jesus had cured him of.

Blatantly false. Would you care to try again?

Oh, and I'm a lesbian, a democrat, an Obama supporter, and my name sure in the hell isn't Polly.

[Tyler Durden]

128. He distanced himself. He DID NOT ABSOLUTELY DISAVOW.

PLEASE post his disavowal of the bigotry against LGBT people.

I'll wait.

[ripple]

129. Quote:

"I strongly believe that African Americans and the LGBT community must stand together in the fight for equal rights. And so I strongly disagree with Reverend McClurkin’s views and will continue to fight for these rights as President of the United States to ensure that America is a country that spreads tolerance instead of division," the statement added.- Barack Obama

You're splitting hairs. Obama voiced strong disagreement with McClurkin's views, and he made it clear that he's dedicated to achieving for equality for all Americans.

[Tyler Durden]

130. I strongly suggest that both you and Obama DO NOT get the gravity of this issue.

With his "everyone get together and sing 'KUM-BY-AH'" (my quotes, my comment) attitude, he minimizes the gravity of what he has done.

I suggest you review this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2616181#2616522

You may say "I am a Lesbian" but your politics resemble those of the "Log Cabin Republicans," putting other issues above the overpowering problem: the lack of equality in this nation, which can include everything from LGBT rights to Corporate takeover of America.