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If she's such a feminist, and independent woman, why not run as Hillary Rodham?

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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:28 PM
Original message
If she's such a feminist, and independent woman, why not run as Hillary Rodham?
I'm not being sexist. Just the opposite.

If she were really running as a strong independent woman, why didn't ever use the convention of a married woman keeping her own last name?

Obviously, everyone would still know who she is. But she'd be standing her own more than using the subliminal Restoration message of returning to Bill that is inherent in "Clinton for President in 08" ?
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh please!
Of course this is sexist.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Nope, it is a damn fair and honest question
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WileEcoyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
75. Silly thread.
Whole topic a way to get attention for and not provide even an ounce of helpful debate.
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
86. My spouse kept his birth name when we married. Do you want to ask him why?
He had some experience in politics but he'd probably tell you to mind your own business about his choice in surname upon marrying.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. I dibs-y the popcorn concession on this corner
:popcorn:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. No the popcorn concession is mine
I know what's going to be tossed by this.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. You are a brave & honest man, Armstead. And I admire your fortitude.
When I get home this evening, I'll pour you a drink. You'll probably need one by then ;)
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. All that popcorn will make me thirsty
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. ummm....
cause that is not her name.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. Maybe because it's not her name anymore.
:eyes:
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. And THAT is by HER CHOICE
no law says a woman has to take her spouse's surname. Many feminists don't. Many professionals don't.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Stop smoking the Christmas tree,
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Ah, once again, the foolishness of thinking personal attacks are real arguments
Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. If you think this is a real argument, then you have my pity.
I always love to play with fools.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. This fool happens to know a woman can keep her name
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 12:38 PM by havocmom
if she wants to. Period.

By the way, noticed you used yet another personal attack instead of offering any real substance to the discussion. Go to the corner.

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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
66. Hillary didn't take her husband's name until they had been married for 5 or 6 years
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 03:06 PM by ElizabethDC
she wanted to keep it as Rodham, but it created some political problems and some confusion in Arkansas (where keeping one's maiden name was just not done in those days - Bill's mother cried when she found out that Hillary wasn't changing her name), so she added the Clinton so as not to offend people and to make things easier for Bill.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. Yep, that's the story I heard...
What a pain in the ass mother-in-law!

Too bad she caved ~ I'll bet she'd like to be President Rodham.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #66
85. Yes, I know that
And she pretty much dropped her 'maiden name' (how I HATE that term!) in public use just recently. Hmmm....

In a culture with SO much divorce, it is risky for a professional woman to take her husband's name then try to build a career identifying with it. If the marriage goes bad, she is either stuck professionally with a name she may not particularly like anymore, or lose all the professional history she built with that name. Lots of drawbacks.

And if a professional woman has a husband who likes to keep playing the field, it would seem very risky indeed ;)

My sister kept getting married and divorced. She finally picked well with husband #4 but kept the name of #3 cuz it just worked better professionally. #4 is bright enough not to mind.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. Because the media would have a field day if she did that, you silly-billy.
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 12:31 PM by Perry Logan
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Well you've got a good point there...
But she could have done it earlier...Like when she was running for Senate for the first time, to make clear her political career was her own.

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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. This is a free country - at least it used to be - so
she can run under any name she wants to. BTW - she is not my choice - none of them are, yet!
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. Seriously, if you had the Clinton name to run on
would you throw it away?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. If I were female and trying to establish my own identity I would
As I said in the original post, obviously using her own name would not make people forget who she is married to.

But if she had wanted to stand on her own, as her own person, it would have seemed more of a way to at least diminish the nepotism and dynasty perceptions.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. LOL!
You aren't a woman, so sorry, you really can't understand what it's ilke to face sexism. That's as arrogant as saying "if I were a black man, I'd...." It's not like she changed her name from Rodham to Clinton to run. Most importantly, you don't have a clue as to what you'd do, and it's just baloney to claim that you do.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I know...You've made it abundently clear that....
..you think I'm a sexist old dog who hasn't a clue.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. no. I've said you use sexist language and you can't possibly understand
what it's like to face sexism. But you seem determined to prove yourself clueless and insensitive about it, time after time. What you don't get is that this is about way more than Clinton.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Seems like telling a man he can't possibly understand what he may not experience
is pretty sexist in and of its self. Most of us can understand much without first hand experience AND being male does not make one immune to sexist treatment or misconceptions.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:03 PM
Original message
bullshit. I can't fully understand what it's like to be a person of color
that's not racism, that's reality and respect, and racism is no better than sexism. And being male and white in this culture is absolutely a big advantage. Sorry, men can be respectful of what women have and do endure when it comes to sexism, but the OP has shown time after time, he isn't.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
53. ..In your opinion
I have seen what women have had to experienced up close and personal many times over the years.

No I don't have direct first-hand experience, but almost every person alive (or at least 85 percent) have had to deal with some form of discrimination about somethinbg in their own make-up and/or background.

But because I don;t conform to your own rhetorical dogma, you refuse to look beyond the surface.

That's okay.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. it's not about rhetoric or dogma. It's about a double standard
and it's about the ugly strand of sexism that runs through DU, that Clinton's candidacy has made so sadly apparent. No man would ever get this kind of crap. As someone downthread said, no one ever suggested that Bobby Kennedy change his name to something else or george w. I'm a feminist. I'm divorced. I still use my ex-husband's name. I was used to it, and I didn't want to change it for several reasons. Women can choose, and they shouldn't get shit because of it.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. I don't like Hillary as a presidential candidate
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 01:19 PM by Armstead
I don't believe she is qualified on her own merits, and I don't agree with many of her policies, and I don't believe the Corporate Democrat faction of the Democratic Party that is backing her should maintain their grip on power.

I also don't like the nepotism involved in trading in on her husband's popularity.

If she were a male in the same situation, I'd feel the same way.

If you want to call that sexist, so be it.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
55. So, you can understand different conditions
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 01:10 PM by havocmom
but Armstead can't?

That's mighty thin ice.

Where did I EVER say being male & white doesn't have advantages? Straw much?

I said people are able to understand the conditions others have to deal with without actually being in the same condition. Where's the beef with what I actually said?

As a woman who does not use her husband's name, I think the OP raises a valid question. So far, I have not seen a valid rebuttal to what he stated in the OP. Sorry, I deal with the OP, not a grudge match with what I have disagreed with the poster in the past, and there have been plenty of times he and I clashed.

edited for typo

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. He demonstrates repeatedly that he doesn't understand at all.
It's about choice. And there have been plenty of good responses in this thread.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #58
77. Not agreeing with some people is not the same as not understanding
One might allow for differences without branding those who have them. THAT would be tolerant of choice.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. The truth is, she wouldn't even be in any kind of running for President if...
her name were Rodam instead of Clinton.....
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. And we have our winner!
:applause:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I wasn't going to say that....but....
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. really?
Why would that be?

Does she have less experience with the name Rodham?

This is a ridiculous non-issue.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. It's not ridiculous at all, the only reason she is in the running is name recognition.. nothing else
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 12:46 PM by LakeSamish706
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. sorry
that's just idiotic.

she's a two term Senator.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. She's a 1 1/2 term Senator
What are perfectly capable and accomplished multi-term Senators like Dodd and Biden being so overshadowed by Hillary as the candidate of "experience"?

Why were very capable female Senators like Boxer and (ugh) Finestein never automatically touted as presidential material simply because of their last names?

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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. But you have no problems with Edwards or Obama?
One term Senators?

or is because she's a woman?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. It's not because she's a woman
If Rep. Schakowsky were running, for example, I'd support her in a heartbeat:
http://www.house.gov/schakowsky/welcome.shtml


"A longtime consumer advocate, who in 1969 led the fight that put freshness dates on products sold in the supermarket, Schakowsky carries on that tradition in Congress with efforts to safeguard the rights of victims of identity theft and to protect consumers from predatory lenders. A champion for the nation's seniors, Schakowsky is actively engaged in the campaign for seniors and persons with disabilities to access affordable prescription drugs. Schakowsky is also working to ensure that seniors receive quality home, hospice, and nursing care.

Prior to her election to Congress, Schakowsky represented the 18th District in the Illinois General Assembly for eight years. She served as a Democratic Floor Leader and as Secretary of the Conference of Women Legislators.

For twenty years prior to her election to the State House, Schakowsky fought for the public interest and rights of Illinois citizens. As Program Director of Illinois Public Action (1976-1985), the state's largest public interest organization, she fought for energy reform and stronger protection from toxic chemicals. As Director of the Illinois State Council of Senior Citizens from 1985-1990, she organized across the state for lower cost prescription drugs and tax relief for seniors, financial protection for the spouses of nursing home residents and other benefits for the elderly. She has been deeply involved in the fight to protect women's reproductive freedom.

Schakowsky resides in Evanston, Illinois with her husband Robert Creamer. She has three children, Ian, Mary, and stepdaughter Lauren Creamer, and four grandchildren, Isabel, Eve, Lucy, and William. She graduated from the University of Illinois in 1965 with a B.S. in Elementary Education. "
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. no. you have no problem with Edwards brief and less than illustrious
Senate tenure. Nah, couldn't be that she's a woman.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Did you even bother to read the post you responded to?
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
63. doesn't answer my question
why do apply a different yardstick for Hillary than for Edwards and Obama?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. I'm not thrilled at the length of their Senmate careers either
But they are no less "experienced" than Hillary, if you count their prior life experiences.

And Obama was serving as a state legislature in the tought world of Illinois politics, so in terms of service as an elected official he trumps Hillary.

Plus, if I'm choosing between three Senators with roughly the same experience, I'll go for the one(s) I agree with over the one I disagree with.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #65
82. so then basically
your contention that Hillary wouldn't be a contender if she weren't Bill's wife is horseshit.

thank you.
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
83. I'd vote for Boxer
but Clinton does not have my vote in the primaries. She has changed her stance on many policies that are important to me. Her Health Care Plan keeps corrupt Pharmaceutical and Insurance Companies in Charge, both Clinton and Obama support expanding Nafta to Peru. I'm not sure who has my vote in the primaries just know who doesn't. I do know what it is like to be discriminated against because of my gender. I have been in the work place since the late 60's a lot of that as a divorced single mother.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Yeah, on name recognition again... I'm talking about her Senate run...
as well. I highly doubt she would have won a Senate seat if her name had been Rodam...
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. I don't see why.
She's just as likely to have won NY State with any name.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #30
98. If she had not married Bill Clinton she would have run
for the Presidency before now. He has been a drag on her career.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. faulty premise - you are stating YOUR view, not hers and blaming her for it nt
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. We all state our views here
My view is that she is not really running as an independent woman. She's running as Bill 2 The Sequal.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. And that is the exact truth, even if her supporters do not like to admit it. n/t
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
25. Wheres the person that argued Hillary can't be President because of the 22 Amendment?
:rofl:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. It's too bad it doesn't apply to married couples or sons
Then we might be able to move beyond the ABABAB nepotism in modern politics
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Man do I see a split personality in this thread!
:rofl:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"
(And yes I said that ironically)
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Funny...
Is there anything that ISN'T the hobgoblin of little minds?
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. Yep...
Whatever personality this thread had split some time ago. I think it made it all the way to Albuquerque.

(Bah-dum-dum, pssh!)
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
67. A tombstone has been erected in his honor. n/t
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classof56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
32. I recall the criticism heaped on Geraldine Ferraro for not taking her husband's name
This was when she ran for VP with Walter Mondale. She said she kept her maiden name to honor her father, who died when she was eight. I think it's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't things, and we married females can't seem to suit everybody. I considered it a personal decision and took my spouse's name for one thing because I liked it and for another because it would be the same as our children's. Can't speak for Hillary of course, but I suspect there are those who won't find anything she does to be acceptable, including her choice of names. Just the kinda world we live in, I guess.

Tired Old Cynic
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
33. Perhaps they thought her last name was too similar to that of a Japanese cult hero.
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 12:53 PM by Benhurst


Silly season is in full swing.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
36. She isn't running as "Clinton for President in '08" - It's "Hillary". So she made her choice.
You, however, seem unable to accept it. And that's not her problem, it's yours.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
37. Maybe Bobby Kennedy should have taken his wife's name... shown he was his own man and all that.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
40. Maybe you aren't...
However, isn't the choice to take her husband's name just that? A personal choice? Funny, I'd always interpreted the goal of feminism to be the equivalent of any other civil rights movement, that being equal treatment under the law and the defense of the full breadth of personal choices and rights due that individual.

I don't see what her choice to take her husband's name has to do with either of the concepts of strength or independence.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Not a big deal but it would indicate a willingness to...
...not trade on the built in popularity of her husband, and run totally on her own merits.

I'm sure she and her campaign team have not overlooked the not-so-hidden connection whenever peopel say "Clinton" in news articles and campaign materials.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Well, that's a bit on the side of practical impossibility...
...if by "trading in" you mean staying married to him, as if there was a soul in this country who DOESN'T know who she's married to by now. I believe that she IS trying to run on her own merits, and that it is WE who are drawing that connection. It may help her or it may hurt her, but in what realistic sense can she avoid it? If anything, changing her name to Hillary Rodham would draw attention to the fact that she's trying to distance herself from her husband, and in so doing, only serves to encourage the practice of drawing this connection further into relief.

On one hand you can draw attention by the association, on the other hand you can draw attention by the disassociation. Either way, there is attention. You can't escape it if you are in her position. So why try? The only thing you can do is try to look upon it in a positive light and hope others see it that way as well.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. You make a good point
She is in a "damned if she does and damned if she doesn't" position on it. If she had gone back to her own name at some point, I realize she'd be slammed for that too.

But given that, I believe the flack she would have gotten for using her own name would have made a more positive impact in terms of establishing her own identity, even with the flack.
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
47. FEMINISM is about CHOICE, Not Your Opinion about what a Woman or Man should name her or himself !
Break your own mental chains (or keep them) and be free to be who you want to be ! Stop telling other people to meet your personal expectations re names and aspirations. In any case we are busy creating our own lives and will call ourselves as we will-mother's name, father's name, spouse's name, or new name. It is our choice and not subject to the expectations of others.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. good post. thanks. n/t
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Amen
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
69. Exactly. That's always been my view about feminism, too.
It's about freedom to make one's own choices, and not be subjected to the gender-based stereotypes of others.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
74. Duh, I know it's a choice
Just asking why she made that particular choice.




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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #47
79. Just what I was going to write.
But better.

:thumbsup:
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
49. She made a choice.

There has been some discussion about that in the past 40 or so years....
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
62. I thought you haters would take a break from all your Hillary bitching.
It is Christmas week. :eyes:
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
64. Golly lets put Obama down as Oprah then
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chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
68. Because THAT'S NOT HER NAME!
Jesus effin' Christ.
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CyberPieHole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
70. Is Obama running as Barack Hussein Obama Jr.?
Or does he prefer not to use his middle name for some reason?
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #70
99. Since middle names are so popular with the Clinton campaign
perhaps she could run as Hillary Diane Clinton?
HDC for short.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
71. She isn't running as a feminist or as an independent woman. She's running as a Democrat.
The fact that she's an independent woman, a brilliant one, is just a bonus.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
72. Yeah. And why doesn't she stop wearing mascara? that's just bowing to patriarchy.
:eyes:

Ya know, I'm supporting Edwards, but all these stupid/ignorant posts about Hillary Clinton's name are driving me crazy. There are plenty of reasons to support other candidates without resorting to this shit.

She's not stupid and she wants to win, so of course she is going to use the version of her name that helps her do that, regardless of whether or not she had some personal desire to return to Rodham (which she probably doesn't). There is nothing wrong, weak or dependent about doing so. I didn't change my name when I got married, but it's none of my business if other women do (Elizabeth Edwards is a strong, independent woman, too). Hillary Clinton, Hillary Rodham Clinton, Hillary! -- she's made all of the names hers and she's welcome to use them.

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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #72
88. Skirts, too.
Edited on Fri Dec-28-07 10:21 AM by Sparkly
If she's equal to men, she should wear pants just like men, right? :sarcasm:

(Edited to make clear: I'm agreeing with you!)
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Nailzberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
76. She should run as "Mrs. Bill Clinton"
:hide:
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Yea.
She would be a showin then. :applause:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
80. Why should she change her name?
It's her name. Why should she be forced to change it to show how independent she is?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #80
90. She's done it before
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
81. So every woman who got married and changed her name
is now unqualified to run for office? That's a mighty convenient rule for a guy to come up with.

I guess the overwhelming 16% of congress that's female is too threatening for some dudes ... clearly we need to be more selective. :eyes:

Next up: women who have ever worn panty hose, heels, or makeup are unfit to run as president.

Nothing sexist in that, mind you ... just making sure the women who run act enough like men to be suited for the office.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #81
89. Bullshit -- Normally it wouldn't matter
The only reason it does now is that the last name happens to be Clinton, and she has tended to change her name to fit whatever circumstances she sees the most opportunity.

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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #89
104. This sort of "feminism" is bullshit.
... the sort where men decide that feminism should restrict women's access to jobs and opportunities for not meeting some man's definition of feminism. The ultimate is when rules are created and applied in arbitrary ways based on the men's changing interpretations.

Women who don't play by men's rules aren't good enough feminists.
Women who do play by men's rules aren't good enough feminists.
Women who play by men's rules sometimes but not always aren't doing it right - and thus aren't good enough feminists.

Did you think this was some new brilliant insight you were bringing to us?
"What she did was okay for other women, but I've decided for her, because of who she is married to, this is not appropriate feminism for her - she is excluded from the rules all other women are required to follow."

Here's a clue - there is not anything in that play book we haven't seen, lived, breathed for our whole damned lives. And we are excruciatingly aware that this is a game men don't even need to play, the whole "you changed your name/didn't change your name/didn't change your name according to my rules" bullshit.

Because it's a game you don't need to play, my opinion is you should shut the hell up rather than explain to us women why you are all for equality, but we need to realize some of us aren't good enough feminists to deserve equality in the workforce.

Misogynistic bullshit excuses about why we don't deserve to be treated like you reflect poorly on you.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
84. so YOU get to decide
what name independent women have to use?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. I don't get to decide nuthin'
If it were up to me the whole field would look a lot different this year.

I was just askin'
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
91. That's not her name...nt
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TriMetFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
92. This one of the reasons why I will vote for Hillary.
As a women, I will vote with Hillary. And If she doesn't end up being The Democratic nominee, then I will support and vote for the male nominee.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
93. If he's such a tolerant "progressive,"* why not run as Barack HUSSEIN Obama?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. Because most candidates don't run on their middle name
Do you even know Edwards middle name? Or Bidens? Or Clinton's maiden middle name?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. true, and Rodham is Hillary's middle name
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
95. Silly question. What difference does her last name make? Come on.
We have more serious issues in the country, don't you think?

I'm not a Hillary supporter, but I don't care one bit what name she uses.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
96. Maybe because Hillary Clinton is her legal name?
:shrug:
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
100. Do get up in the morning and say
"what stupid ass shit should I gripe about Hillary today?".

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wishlist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
101. As a married woman, the marriage is what's relevant, not what name you use
Whatever name a woman or man chooses to use is a personal decision that is basically irrelevant to the amount of independence or separate identity they retain after marriage. Once you are married, you don't have a totally separate identity anyway regardless of the name. The act of marriage causes legal ramifications that are much more relevant than a superficial name change. I guess some people put more importance on names than I do, but to me one's actions and behavior and attitudes are what is important.
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ArkySue Donating Member (647 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
102. In Arkansas in 1978
When Bill was first elected Governor, Hillary was going by Hillary Rodham. It caused a huge uproar to the delicate sensibilities of many voters here. Bill lost in 1980, mostly due to a license plate fee increase, but a little bit because Hillary was "uppity."
When Bill was re-elected in 1982, Hillary started going by Hillary Clinton, and has been ever since.
Arkansas was not a very progressive state in 1978 (it's a little better now).
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
103. Sexist flame bait OP
From the kind of person who'll post "why doesn't Obama use his full name?" next.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
105. Is keeping one's maiden name...
Is keeping one's maiden name after marriage a litmus test for Feminism?

Seems to me that if she is indeed a strong woman as you postulated, she'd be strong enough to maintain her own identity regardless of her name, and strong enough to make that decision on her own terms.
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