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Poll question: Should out-of-state students vote/caucus in a state where they live 75% of the year?

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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:34 PM
Original message
Poll question: Poll question: Should out-of-state students vote/caucus in a state where they live 75% of the year?
If a student doesn't qualify for in-state tuition or even have an Iowa driver's license, yet spends most of their time in Iowa, and infusing money into the state and local economies - should they caucus in Iowa which is far more important in the primary cycle, instead of voting back in their home state which might not even have more than one candidate by then?


Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Supreme Court's answer: Yes.
Does that put this issue to rest?
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Some people dont like that answer...
Which is why they wont let it go.
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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't understand the issue or question here that has been going on
about this. It has been that way for college students for some time that I can remember. While they are at school, they are able to vote as they are residents at the time & live in the town or state for most of the year.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. They should only be allowed to vote once
I voted in Illinois, where I went to college, in 88 for pretty much the same reason. Illinois was an early March primary while Ohio was a June primary (funny how things change now a March primary is too late). But I didn't vote in Ohio's primary that year even though, in theory, I could have reregistered in Ohio. I also voted in Illinois for the general election that year. I voted in Ohio in the rest of my college years.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm not sure they'd be "disenfranchised."
:shrug:
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. just figured i'd clean up the other push poll
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. But they'd be able to vote in their home states, no?
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. yeah, but if they vote in Iowa
would they really be disenfrancising Iowans?
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. Not if they already participated in the primary process in Iowa
that would be illegal.
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Zueda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
43. They already have been. nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hahahahahaha... someone actually voted for disenfranchisement...
*shakes head*
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. Where are they registered to vote?
If you are not registered as a voter in state A, you have no business voting in state A.

Caucuses are a different matter entirely, as caucuses are strictly speaking a private meeting of party loyalists. I remember reading somewhere that the state party in Iowa requires that caucus-goers be on the state-provided list of registered Democrats. Those who are not registered as Democrats in time to make the list can not participate in the caucuses. If you don't like that rule, ask the state party to change the rule.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. As I understand it -
Any one who is not registered can simply show up on the night of January 3rd and register and caucus instantly.

If you are registered in another state (or another county within the state) you can show up at your precinct's caucus location and re-register on the night of January 3rd and participate.

If you are a registered Republican or Independent (or unaffiliated) you can show up that night and re-register and participate in the caucus.

I have gathered all of this from prior posts and links here at the DU.


Also, it seems that if you are actually from another state that has a later caucus or direct primary vote you can then go to your home state or future state and re-register and vote in that state's later primary.
You can not vote twice on any given election date but with the rolling primary dates it appears you can vote as many times as you can legally register throughout the primary period.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Thank you for the information
I'm pretty sure I have the generalities right, but I wasn't sure about the specifics. Thanks!
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Thank you Durham for doing the research!! ...So the answer is =YES=


I wouldn't have known the answer - and it's awesome when DU'ers do their homework when responding to a tough question like this! ~~~~~
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. The answer is no. n/t
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. You are incorrect on the last part
If a person participates in the Iowa caucuses then they have participated in the presidential primary process. They cannot go re-register in a later state and participate. That would be illegal and they could be prosecuted for voter fraud in the state where the fraud occurred (which would not be Iowa since that was the first state where they participated).
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. That is not the rule or law in Iowa.

Oh, and if you care to know the law....

Iowa Code Section 43.91 provides that only eligible Iowa voters may participate in the caucus. The only expansion upon that right is the additional factor is that if they are not an eligible voter on the evening of the caucus they will become one by the date of the next general election.

To become a voter in Iowa one must have a residence in the State. To have a residence in Iowa, one must have a home in the precinct "with the intent to remain there permanently or for a definite or indefinite or indeterminable length of time." (Iowa Code Section 48.5A). Further, a non-resident, with a voting registration in another state is not eligible to register in Iowa (i.e. "not claim the right to vote in more than one place." See Section 48A.5(1)(d).

Additionally, there is a limitation on what can be established as a residence. Under Code Section 48A.5A Determination of Residence (2) provides that "a residence for purposes of this chapter cannot be established in a commercial or industrial building that is not normally used for residential purposes", i.e. which I think we can reasonably take to mean not a hotel or a campaign headquarters.

(Note: if this discussion continues, there is a specific exception for students, who may declare either their campus residence or their hometown as their residence, but not both. See 48A.5 (5)).

(Iowa has same day registration now, so a person can show up and register to become an Iowa voter in the precinct they live - under threat of perjury - jail time and fines - if they are not telling the truth - 10 years in jail is a long time to spend just to participate in the Iowa Caucuses).
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Please see my post 27 below.
You are talking about a different matter than I .
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. There is only ONE presidential primary
it just takes place on different dates in different states.

A person can only participate once.

They cannot participate in one state and then go to a later state and participate again.

That is illegal.

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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Well, I see you have changed the subject somewhat.
About voting in more than one primary...

Voting legally is driven by the ability to register legally. Registering legally is controlled by each state's rules. If you meet the registration requirements of a second (or third) state during the primary period I think it would be difficult to prove it is illegal.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. It is never legal to vote twice in a specific contest
Edited on Sat Dec-15-07 12:05 PM by Debi
so no matter the residency requirements of a particular state.

If a person participated in an earlier contest in another state they cannot qualify or be eligible to participate in a later scheduled vote for the same contest.

I did not change the subject.

It is never legal to vote twice in a presidential primary. That is the argument you made in your earlier post.

On edit:

Here is the part of your post I take exception with:

Also, it seems that if you are actually from another state that has a later caucus or direct primary vote you can then go to your home state or future state and re-register and vote in that state's later primary.
You can not vote twice on any given election date but with the rolling primary dates it appears you can vote as many times as you can legally register throughout the primary period.


There is only ONE presidential primary - it just occurs at different times in different states. A voter can only participate once.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. my god
how many times do you have to dance for Lil Dog's supporters?

thank you for adding to this thread, since some continue to disingenuously raise concerns bout Iowa.

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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Lil Dog?
:rofl:

You are naughty :spank:

It's interesting to note that it's those supporters who continue to wish to find ways around the law. The supporters of other candidates seem to accept that Iowa is clean and fair and that people who participate here WANT to obey the laws. Funny that.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Everything I have been able to find about
double voting relates to "same day" voting.

Have you found a federal law specific to the rolling primary issue?

I am not being argumentative. I very much appreciate all of the information that you have previously posted about this issue.

It just seems to me that voting is tied to legal registration and the double primary double question is a gray area in the law.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Sorry, I cannot cite any particular law
maybe it is only an implied position or the idea has been set?

It would take a review of all 50 state laws to determine if any would allow voting in a primary election where the voter has already participated in a previous selection process for the same position. (if you can find me a state that encourages voter fraud I will be very surprised).

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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
10. As long as they only vote once, I don't care where they do it.
x2
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yes, but only if the aren't allowed to vote in their home state
no one should be able to vote twice.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. I say no.
If I live in California but have a vacation home in Oregon, my voting should be limited to California no matter HOW much time I spend in my vacation home. Why? Because I'm ultimately still only a visitor in Oregon. When all is said and done, I always return to my HOME in California at the end of the day. As a Californian, I should not have the right to interject my opinions into Oregon politics simply because I have the financial resources to afford a second residence there. Similarly, a Texas resident should not have the right to interject his vote into Iowa politics simply because his parents have the financial resources to send him to school in Iowa.

The only requirement to becoming a voting resident in Iowa is having an address of your own. If you are living in a dorm, you are not a resident but a long term visitor. You have no political connections to the state, and as such should not have a vote in LOCAL STATE politics equal to that of the residents who actually have to live with those decisions. College students living on campus are transient visitors to their communities.

Now, if a college student rents an apartment of his own and actually sets up some sort of household, the story is very different. At that point the student becomes a resident, and should be treated to all of the same rights as any other resident.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. That was my first thought, but Durham explained IA above and it's actually "yes"


I think it would be a kick in the butt to caucus in Iowa on a cold January night! Being first in the nation has to be an awesome feeling! ~ ~
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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. They should vote in the state they claim residency for. {nt}
uguu
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Shouldn't they just follow Iowa state law?


I mean... say you're a resident of Montana, but you're currently studying at the University of Iowa.

State law states that you can caucus with your party --- in Iowa.

Which would you do Aya:

1. Caucus for your candidate

2. Spend $$$$$$ flying back to Montana

3. Not vote

..............
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
19. Obviously. Clinton's attack on this was one of the stupidest moments this campaign.
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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. Now that I think of it...
The ReThugs could potentially a bit of chaos by convincing a number out-of-state Young Republicans to register as a Democrat in Iowa.

Maybe some more restrictive criteria should be made for either registration or claiming Iowa as your state of residency.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
22. Here's Iowa law (again) for anyone who cares

Oh, and if you care to know the law....

Iowa Code Section 43.91 provides that only eligible Iowa voters may participate in the caucus. The only expansion upon that right is the additional factor is that if they are not an eligible voter on the evening of the caucus they will become one by the date of the next general election.

To become a voter in Iowa one must have a residence in the State. To have a residence in Iowa, one must have a home in the precinct "with the intent to remain there permanently or for a definite or indefinite or indeterminable length of time." (Iowa Code Section 48.5A). Further, a non-resident, with a voting registration in another state is not eligible to register in Iowa (i.e. "not claim the right to vote in more than one place." See Section 48A.5(1)(d).

Additionally, there is a limitation on what can be established as a residence. Under Code Section 48A.5A Determination of Residence (2) provides that "a residence for purposes of this chapter cannot be established in a commercial or industrial building that is not normally used for residential purposes", i.e. which I think we can reasonably take to mean not a hotel or a campaign headquarters.

(Note: if this discussion continues, there is a specific exception for students, who may declare either their campus residence or their hometown as their residence, but not both. See 48A.5 (5)).

(Iowa has same day registration now, so a person can show up and register to become an Iowa voter in the precinct they live - under threat of perjury - jail time and fines - if they are not telling the truth - 10 years in jail is a long time to spend just to participate in the Iowa Caucuses).


++++++++++++++++++

It seems many on this board don't care about Iowa law or the rules of the Iowa Democratic Party. They would rather apply their own state's laws OR their own opinion rather that the rule of law. Whichever, Iowans and those who are eligible to register to vote and participate in the caucuses are following Iowa law.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. I don't see any actual differences between our posts -
I just tried to boil it down to its simple points.

I was focused on how simple it is to register - your post seems to be more about residency establishment. Again, I don't see the conflict except you are arguing against a point I have not made.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Yes, it is simple to register -
but it is against Iowa law to register if you are not eligible. Your post seems to imply that anyone (not an out of state Iowa college student or new resident of Iowa) can show up and register and participate. It is illegal to fill out and sign a voter registration card where the information on the card is false.

It is also illegal to participate in the process twice. If a person who resides in Illinois but goes to college in Iowa registers to vote and participates in the Iowa Caucuses they cannot legally return to Illinois and re-register to participate in the Illinois Presidential Primary. That is illegal and they will be committing voter fraud in the state of Illinois.

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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. I did not mean to imply anything at all about illegal registration.
I assumed the ability to legally register in my posts.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. But it is what you posted.
And if a person has legally participated in the Iowa Caucuses it would be illegal to register and participate in the primary process anywhere else. Maybe it is that we agree and it was a miss-type, but no one can vote in the primary process twice and any law-abiding citizen knows this and respects it.
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. You are simply turning a blind eye to the obvious
Yes it would be illegal for students to vote twice but as a practical matter out-of-state students can caucus in Iowa and then vote in their home state by absentee ballot. States do not share voter information with each other. So it is easy for students to vote twice. Obama knows that and his supporters are giving a wink to students -- "now make sure you only vote once."
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I refuse to believe ANY campaign is encouraging people to commit a crime
Edited on Sat Dec-15-07 05:19 PM by Debi
Unless you can prove otherwise I will continue to do so.

Some in this world have ethics and I will presume that young people who wish to participate in politics do.

Edited b/c I threw in an insult that was unbecoming. x( Glad I was able to retrieve it.
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loveangelc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
33. YES
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
38. Considering that the DNC has already disenfranchised Democrats in Florida and Michigan
who gives a rip about what the ethanol sniffing Iowans do on their ridiculously inflated caucus.
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Zueda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. State party leaders caused this... not the DNC.
And I have a strong gut felling as to which candidate was pushing these state leaders...Sick Bastards!
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