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In essence the DNC barred Kucinich from the debate

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penguin7 Donating Member (962 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:08 AM
Original message
In essence the DNC barred Kucinich from the debate
http://www2.kucinich.us/issues/open_debates.php


... ..."Unfortunately, the value of this democratic principle has failed under the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD). Established in 1988 as an extension of the major political parties, the CPD has transformed the presidential debates from dynamic political forums to "glorified news conferences," where candidates recite prepackaged sound bites and avoid discussion of significant issues.

Prior to this control, the presidential debates were faithfully sponsored by the nonpartisan League of Women Voters, who courageously included popular independent candidates, such as Congressman John Anderson, and prohibited major party campaigns from manipulating debate environments. The Democratic National Committee and Republican National Committee, however, did not want a sponsor who limited their candidates' control in order to further public interest. Their official agreement "for the parties to take over presidential debates" has led to a complete partisan control of these important events by major parties with little to no interest in promoting any alternatives to business as usual in Washington." ... ...

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. I thought it was the Iowa Register.
:shrug:
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. The DNC had nothing to do with this: it was Des Moines Reigister rules /nt
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Enforced arbitrarily.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Anybody in the debate Dennis would have been in get a pass?
I mean - it's not like he applied for the Keyes spot is it? Any of the other Democratic candidates who were ioncluded not have an IA office? Were LaMagna and Kreuger etc included?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Rules have no value when they are inconsistent.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. So you can't have different rules for different scenarios?
So co-ed teams should play the same as men only? Kids same as adults? The only event Dennis was potentially eligible for did not include anyone else who did not meet the criteria. If they changed the rules for a completely separate debate that he would not have qualified for, how does that help Dennis? Had they NOT included Keyes would it make it any better for Dennis? It's an irrelevant point from a DK POV.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I understand that.
Two different debates. Two different scenarios. Yet, the same guidelines were in place for each. When the debate rules were enforced differently, for whatever benign reason, it gives a questionable impression. That is all.

But, you are right. Keyes in at the GOP had no effect on DK. Other than giving him an opprotunity to raise a question.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Can't explain that one either
I have no idea WHY AK got in and DK didn't (unless there is some "recent entrant" loophole perhaps?) but it didn't make any difference either way. If anything this helped Dennis more than his inclusion would have. It's not like he hasn't been in plenty of the debates for people who like that way of learning about candidates, so he got to have all the debate exposure minus one, then he got to generate a media story about inclusion and exclusion instead of that additional debate.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
57. Oh yes
Yeah it helped kucinich, the first fo the debates that had something loosely resembling an equal division of time and he missed out on it. Sure and the mainstream media carried the farce of his exclusion non-stop didn't they? Well they at least ran a story asking "what was Kucinich doing while the debates were going on?" Oh wait... they didn't? Well the must have rana story on the process by which he was barred and Keyes was allowed? You mean they didn't do that either?

Why am I not surprised that the only politician to suggest SPECIFIC reforms that REDUCE the level of media monopoly these days was excluded. Big shocker.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Give me a break... you can't put Kucinich on the same level as those two.
Jesus.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. And the effective difference in their viability is......? NT
ljlj
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Not for you to attempt to predict. (nt)
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Wanna bet?
500-1 odds on DK any time you want it.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Childish. (nt)
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. No. Courage of convictions. Got any? NT
ljljk
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. More than you, I'll bet.
Edited on Fri Dec-14-07 12:59 PM by redqueen
:hi:
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Well less than 1/500th apparently.
I am thinking I can predict Kucinich's viability. Apparently you disagree, but not quite enough.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. How about we try to stay on topic, and not make this personal, eh?
The subthread below is on topic, I'll just stick to that.

:hi:
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. Wow
Now using the words "Conviction" in the same thread that you defend a democratic candidates exclusion from one of the first debates that afforded a more balanced distribution of time between the candidates is kind of funny.

Is it irony?

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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Which Dennis knew about and ignored. NT
lkjlj
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. Not true. He has an office and paid staff.
Edited on Fri Dec-14-07 11:15 AM by redqueen
Oddly, the Des Moines Register allowed Keyes to debate despite his not having any paid staff or an office.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Home office. Not storefront as required. NT
ljlj
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. They changed their minds, and added the "storefront" BS later... where's Keyes' "storefront"?
Why are you trying sooooooooo hard to rationalize his unfair exclusion?
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Was Keyes in the Dem debate?
Why are you trying so hard to make it into a conspiracy?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. I'm not making it one. Kucinich was treated unfairly.
I'm sorry you're in denial about it and have to resort to hyperbole to try to continue to further your "argument".
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. There is no hyperbole and no argument either
he did NOT meet the criteria established and was not included. Simple and clear cut. Nobody needs to read anything into it more than that.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. So you think they previously asserted that home offices were exluded?
Where did you read that, pray tell?
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #49
59. Uhm hold on
Accusing someone else of being a conspiracy nut by suggesting their arguments are "a conspiracy" really IS Hyperoble.

Sorry, you lose again.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
7.  Please say it was the 1988 DNC
.
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penguin7 Donating Member (962 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. So the DNC no longer sanctions the CPD?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. You are really grasping at straws. Most candidates have numerous offices there.
Kucinich knew the rules and did not choose to follow them. It costs money to have offices, and most of them did put out the money.

He chose not to follow the rules.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. Alan Keyes does NOT have an office. Neither does he have paid staff.
He was allowed to debate.

Did the other GOP candidates support his inclusion, as someone else on here stated?

I'm VERY curious to know that.




Nowhere in their rules is it stated that the office can't be a home office.

Sickening that so many people here are trying SO hard to rationalize this bullshit.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
10. No, it was the Des Moines Register's rules, which DK knowingly failed to meet.
The rules were arbitrarily enforced, and DMR should take heat for that. But the DNC was not responsible, "in essence" or otherwise.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
12. Why wasn't Colbert there - he didn't follow the rules for eligiability
but he still should not have been excluded...
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. Do people who post the snarky kind of shit you just did think it's amusing?
Edited on Fri Dec-14-07 11:16 AM by redqueen
Or valuable in any way, to anyone?

Just curious...
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Kucinich4America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
14. There's no question that the CPD is a fucking joke, and should not exist.
But in this case it was the Des Moines Catbox Liner which was to blame for discriminating against the best candidate in the race. :(
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. Isn't it true that the candidates could have voted to have him included as
the rethugs did with Keyes?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. Fucking hell... I hope that's not true.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
43. Where did you hear that, anyway?
I'm curious...
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
16. the rules were
you had to have an office or a campaign staffer working in Iowa and Keyes does, and Kucinich and Gravel do NOT.

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penguin7 Donating Member (962 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. The issue is why a newspaper is making the rules.
It really does not matter what the rules are.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Because they're hosting the debate. Their debate, their rules.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. It was "and," not "or." Where's Keyes' office?
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Kucinich4America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. That's a very good question
Last time I checked, Keyes didn't even know what state he lived in.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. No one seems to know.
The ONE person at the Des Moines register whom others expect to know isn't available.

For the 3rd day running.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. Kucinich actually does meet those requirements.
Dunno about Gravel, but Alan Keyes certainly did not meet them, yet he was allowed to debate.

Sickening how Dems are so ready to help the motherfuckers ignore the candidate with the most popular policy ideas.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. They can't afford to have Kucinich on stage with them.
Remember Edwards' "cute, Dennis"?

The man speaks his mind and cuts through the bs. The other candidates can't afford that.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. that's absurd. He's been on stage in practically all the debates
including last week's NPR debate. And the fact is that Kucinich is not a threat to any of them.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. it's like fucking parrots here
i think i'm going to pick a phrase and just use it in every mother fucking thread.

it should be something bad about Hillary.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Cackler.
She cackles.

She's so cackley.

Cackle cackle cackle. :P
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. ooh, good one
there's a lively exchange going on in another thread, and some people i'm done talking to, so maybe they'll just get cackles from here on out. ;)
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
60. uhm wrong
None of them had "storefront offices"

Kucinich did have one staffer working out of his home. Keyes did not have a staffer or an office.

Strangely Keyes is in and Kucinich is out.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
29. kucinich campaign should be more careful about their "history"
In 1980, the League of Women Voters did invite John Anderson to participate in the first presidential debate. At the time, however, Anderson was polling around 10 percent and had been as high as 20 percent. Jimmy Carter boycotted that debate, so it ended up being a debate between Reagan and Anderson. Carter continued to refuse to participate in a debate that included Anderson and the LWV cancelled the second debate. Finally, as election day neared, Reagan agreed to participate in a head-to-head with Carter but without Anderson (who had dropped below 5 percent in the polls) and the LWV agreed. I should add that the Libertarian candidate received over 1 percent of the vote in 1980, but was never invited to participate in the debates by the LWV.

While I think DK should've been allowed to participate in the most recent debates, some of the woe-is-me'ing going on is a bit absurd. There have been more than a dozen Democratic candidate debates/fora and DK has been "uninvited" to two of them as far as I can tell. I don't think its the exclusion from the debate that is holding down his poll numbers.





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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. It's not "woe is me'ing" it's expecting fair treatment.
:wtf:
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
30. Nobody has a sacred right to television.
Unless there's TV, Kucinich couldn't give a damn about Iowa. He's not interested.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. He's got paid staff there and lots of supporters.
Please back your statement up. What makes you think he's not interested?
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
31. think he'll show up for debates in Ohio?
he does have a few opponents who will gladly debate him..or is this a low priority for him?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. Why not call his campaign and ask?
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
55. Anyone else think that maybe Keyes got into the debate...
at the behest of the RNC? Would be a good way to take Huckleberry out of the running--two fundies and one Mormon to split the GOP religious wacko vote.

Keyes has stomped all the college and University campuses in Iowa at the invitation of the fully GOP funded Young Republicans. All of the midwest as a matter of fact.
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #37
56. been checking on his run for House again
and it seems he needs money for that also.........according to this..he hasn't filed there yet.
*****************************



The filing date to qualify for the ballot is less than a month away (Jan. 4), and Fossaceca said there wasnt any sign that Kucinichs campaign was distributing petitions.

The primary is scheduled for March 4.

Kucinich didnt raise any money for his congressional campaign last quarter and has only $3,850 remaining in his House campaign account. He has $327,000 in his presidential campaign account, which he can transfer for his reelection bid.


and a GOP'ers entered the race.......

Joe Cimperman, a popular 37-year-old Cleveland city councilman, announced Tuesday that he will be running against Kucinich in the Democratic primary for his House seat next March, giving the six-term congressman his first serious and politically experienced challenger since he was first elected in 1996.In the past, Kucinich has praised Cimpermans record on the city council. In a 1999 Cleveland Plain Dealer article, Kucinich praised Cimperman for being passionately involved in his community.



http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1207/7189.html




wonder how this will play out?


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terryg11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. this should concern many
people all over this board whine and moan about how the dems don't have any backbone and don't press the republicans on many issues. Well, like him or not, Dennis has been doing that from day one. He may not be a viable candidate thanks to the media but we need him in Washington. He's one of the few who's honestly trying to get Bush and Cheney impeached for their illegal war. He stands up to large coporations unethical shit all the time. Losing Kucinich in the House would be a bad thing.
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