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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 12:47 AM
Original message
Mormons subjugate women. This to me is an important
point that has not been raised about Romney's religion. I want him to be asked in a debate if he believes that women have a right to be the leaders of this country and of his church. That should be a good one to fumble his way through. Of course women are not equals in several other religions that the candidates practice (Baptists and Catholics) but they are not quite as blatant about it as Mormons.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Harry Reid is a Mormon. That is an awful broad brush.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. True ST...

And I know from past conversations on here, that we do have several Mormon DU'ers that participate here.

That's why I said on the Romney thread -- it's not his religion that bothers me.

But it did bother me that he was able to sway the media into a full-day of coverage --- and for what --- he is NOT yet a nominee!

When Kennedy made a speech regarding religion, he was the Democratic NOMINEE.

How arrogant of Romney.. But then, Papa Bush even catered his media blitz.

The man is so two-faced he probably doesn't know his ass from his... ... well, you know what I mean.

He's a JOKE.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. I really do not not know what true ST is. Could you please explain?
Thanks.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Oh...


I was just saying true to serious tan = (ST) because she reminded us that our Senatorial leader is a Mormon.

Zats all ~
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I love DU. I get proven wrong or not and I learn. What I know about
the Mormon people I know personally is that I see strong women, but they are always under a man's control, either the father or the husband. Also, when I research the religion, it says that women are subject to men, always.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Ah c'mon efhmc... DU loves you too..


I don't think anyone wants to prove you wrong on your knowledge of the Mormon religion..

My only comment was that we do have DU'ers that hang out here that are Mormons (trust me.. I know because I inadvertantly somehow insulted them accidently once and never will again)

And Serioustan was just reminding us that Harry Reid is a Mormon.

No one is trying to prove you wrong..
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. Not the ones I know
In fact, although I think it's a kooky "religion" ( as they all are), individual Mormons I know are the nicest and most loyal friends you could have. It is also not true that ALL women are under a man's thumb. One couple I know.... She was a bank Vice President, then went to night school and got her law degree at age 40. During this time the husband took care of the kids... I can tell you, she does anything and everything she wants to do.
So, just like it says that Catholics shouldn't use birth control... they do it anyway.
Same with Mormons. A lot do the "cafeteria" thing.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. What would be more important
would be a good follow up. It'd be pretty easy for him to say that women do/should have the right whether he believes it or not.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Right, that would be the easy out but it would not reveal his deeply held
thoughts or his religious doctrines.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. His mom Lenore ran for Senate in 1970--as a pro-choice Republican.
Blows the mind, doesn't it? I lived in Utah for a time and was surrounded by many modern, educated, working Mormon women--yes, they have more babies than average, but I don't think they're any more oppressed than Baptist or Catholic women.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Did you happen to see the PBS series on the Mormons? Watch that and
than tell me what you think about their view of women. It is very archaic.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I didn't see that particular series, but I'm pretty familiar with LDS--
I've known some members personally, and I've also read a bit about their beliefs--"Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer is a pretty eye-opening (and not very flattering) portrayal. Having gone to work and school with Mormon women in a Mormon-dominant community, I just don't see where they're any different, or unhappier, than anyone else. Aside from the no-booze/no-caffeine stuff. And the curious habit of taking their babies with them to college courses (can't afford daycare, maybe?). It's not for me to judge them--they're not helpless children, they choose their lives and faith same as I choose mine.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. That is a VERY interesting book for sure!

A friend of mine had finished reading it and gave it to me... and just before I was about done with it --- was when they made the arrest of Warren Jeffs.

Talk about timing !!
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. Under the Banner of Heaven
I have too read this book - it was fascinating and most things presented in it as facts were indeed correct. However its important to note the book is about break off groups of the main Salt Lake Church and those break offs today bear little resemblance to the the LDS church today. Kind of like saying the KKK has some resemblance to baptists :)
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Utah was the second place women could vote
and the first to elect a woman to a State Senate. Its a religion with many contradictions and inconsistencies.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
10. Buddhism is the only world religion that does not hold in its
primary texts that women are inherently inferior to men.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Mine is the opposite though without "texts"
In my faith, on matters of faith, the leader of a group is a feminine spirit, but only in matters of faith (I say feminine rather then female since a feminine spirit with male genitalia could be a priestess and a male spirit in a female body could act as Priest). Outside of ritual one is responsible for their own lives and they must live with the consequences of their actions. There is no one telling each other how to live their daily lives, save the one rule: Harm None.
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
14. that question would sink him i bet
but he could just lie.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
15. There are more leadership roles for women in Mormonism
Edited on Fri Dec-07-07 04:32 AM by Radical Activist
than in most other Christian churches. Its true that their priesthood is all male. But at the congregational level there are many, many opportunities to serve in leadership roles that are not offered in other churches.

Part of the reason is that they don't have any paid clergy so church members take on larger roles than just showing up to church on Sunday. A woman going to a Mormon church will probably be asked to serve in more leadership roles than a woman who goes to a church with a female minister who expects her congregation to do little outside the Sunday service.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Isn't that really saying that you can have Condi Rice's position but not
GWB's? In other words, you will ultimately always be under men.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Yes.
Its one of the odd contradictions of Mormonism. They give more opportunities for personal growth and leadership for women at the congregational level than some Christian churches that do have female clergy, but there is still a limit to the role women can play in regional or national church leadership.
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. The same can be reversed as well
Edited on Fri Dec-07-07 03:23 PM by FreeState
While there are a ton of opportunities for members of both sexes to serve in leadership roles there are some that are also only available to women (at a local and church wide levels.) Granted there are more opportunities for males to serve on a church wide level, but there are several female only leadership positions (Relief Society, Temple Matrons etc) and some that are open to any sex (Primary/Social Services etc). It's just the positions that on some level require priesthood that are reserved for males (Quarm of the 12/70s/Stake President/Bishop etc).
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
18. Subjugate women
Would you have asked John Kennedy that question. Dont recall a women Pope. How many women priests have there been. I suspect that based on your statement, JFK would have would not have been a suitable candidate for the Presidency.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. As far as this feminist is concerned anyone who thinks that a person's
possession of a penis automatically gives them power over those without are suspect. I think that JFK would have answered that question in the same way that he responded to the idea that the Pope would have power over him as pres. This goes to the separation of church and state, an idea in which he (JFK) believed. Romney does not. Since Romney is a man with five sons (BTW, none of whom are serving in this war he espouses.)and all the information I can gather about Mormons disallows women to be leaders in the church, I would be interested in his views. He would probably say the same thing as JFK (Since Romney himself and others seem to be putting him in the same separation of state and religion category.)
"Many religions have recently begun changing in an attempt to equalize the roles and responsibilities of men and women. Mormonism is one of the exceptions. The Mormon position on women has changed little since the early 1800's, when the official view was that "woman's primary place is in the home, where she is to rear children and abide by the righteous counsel of her husband" (McConkie 844). This attitude, coupled with the doctrine of polygamy and the absolute power claimed by the men of the church, created a legacy of profound sexism which modern Mormonism has been unable to escape.

Mormonism has created an ingenious system of oppression, in which opposition towards men is tantamount to arguing with God. The Mormon religion makes no distinction between clergy and laity, at least with regard to men (Laake 9). All Mormon men are ordained as members of the "priesthood," with the absolute authority to preach the gospel, bestow blessings, prophecy, perform healings and baptisms, and generally speak for God. "Their priesthood gives them the right to advise and instruct the Saints (i.e., Mormons), and their jurisdiction extends over all things spiritual and temporal" (Snowden 134).

At age twelve, boys become members of the Aaronic, or lesser priesthood, and at nineteen become eligible for the Melchezedek, or higher priesthood. Members of either priesthood are higher authorities on everything than are non-members. Women are, of course, excluded from the priesthood. This practice in effect says that a woman's prepubescent son is more qualified to advise her than she is to advise him. The official explanation is that women are kept from having the priesthood because women are more spiritual than men, therefore, men need to have the priesthood to teach them how to be better people (Johnson 86). Women are also told that, because they have the all- important ability to bear children, men need the power of the priesthood merely to remain equal with them." This information comes from this source: "The Role of Women in Mormonism"
Author's name: Jessica Longake











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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
21. There is also the unfortunate Church Doctrine of not allowing African-Americans
to hold Priesthood positions until the 1970's.
The 'founder' of the 'Church', Joseph Smith, preached that people of color were 'inferior' and bore 'the Mark of Cain' (iirc), placed upon them by Gawd himself.
Moreover, If a couple is 'sealed' in the Temple, the Hubby is given a 'secret name' for his wife, known only to him, which if he chooses (for whatever reason) not to 'call her' after death, she can't be 'pulled through the veil' (i.e. enter the Celestial Kingdom, which is his own Planet, ruled by said male).And there's ever so much more...
(Wait 'til Middle America gets a load of Mormon-freaky if Willard is the GOP nominee) :puke: :rofl:
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Just some minor corrections, it was Brigham Young not Smith that was racist
Edited on Fri Dec-07-07 02:00 PM by FreeState
Joseph Smith ordained a black man to the priesthood before he was shot and killed. When Young took over the migrating portion of the sect that went to Utah he changed several doctrinal things - one of them being blacks and the priesthood.

Despite these external social forces, one African American Latter-day Saint received the priesthood during Joseph Smith's lifetime. Elijah Able was ordained "to the priesthood office of Seventy in December 1836" and his "ministerial license . . . was renewed several times during Joseph Smith's lifetime, for the last time in Nauvoo in 1841" (38). Abel served two missions under Joseph Smith and a third one in 1883. This case is especially noteworthy when compared to many other nineteenth-century African American Mormons who did not receive the priesthood.

Throughout Mormon history, theories to justify denying blacks the priesthood were interpreted as being doctrine. The first recorded statement about the priesthood ban was by Parley P. Pratt on April 25, 1847 (20). The first documentation of the Church's priesthood denial policy came from Brigham Young on February 13, 1849 (19). Furthermore, "Before the Mormons moved west, the church had already specified that slaves were not to be ordained to the priesthood. In a hierarchical church, the possibility of slaves presiding over othersparticularly their masterswould have been a terrible circumstance" (39).


see: http://byustudies.byu.edu/Reviews/Pages/reviewdetail.as...


Also the temple name that the wife gives to the husband is obviously known to her as well. The name is nothing more than a name on a rotating list by date - so everyone that works in the temple that day knows the name given out too. Its also available to lookup after a person has died via the church archives - so its really not so secret.

Its believed the name used to call the person up to the resurrection - it has nothing to do with the the Celestial Kingdom beyond being one of several things that are used to symbolically enter heaven in the ceremony.
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boricua79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. personally, there's no justification that holds up
in regards to women having equal rights and opportunities to lead in society and in their churches.

Anybody who tries to claim an exemption to this rule on some theological basis automatically will not get my vote.

Frankly, I'm surprised so many women continue to allow this subjugation, by participating in church all the time. Then again, there are women, like there were slaves, who were afraid of freedom and having to choose. So they go with the flow.

I was brought up half Catholic and half Baptist, and now I'm neither. I'm a free-thinking spiritualist and I've never felt freer.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. THANK YOU
I would never participate in such utter sexist crap
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-07-07 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. It seems like most religions do.
Which is one of the many, many reasons I'm not religious.
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