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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:44 PM
Original message
I'm not a hater- Are You?
Edited on Thu Dec-06-07 12:47 PM by asdjrocky
I posted this as a response, but I thought I'd add it here to outline my position a bit.

I like to argue, don't get me wrong, but when you win, I say so, when I win, you should give me the same consideration. When we can not find a common ground, we should simply agree to disagree. Like grown ups are supposed to do in the real world.

So here's my take on "haters."

First, I don't much like the word hate. I'd have to sit for a long time to think of someone who is worthy of hate. Epically, if it's someone I don't even know personally. I'll tell ya this, I don't like the politics and policies of the Clinton Clan and the DLC. The DLC and the Clinton's are Centrist, and I am a Progressive, and I believe government is here to help the least of us, not the people that are already doing just fine. My other problem with HRC? The people she associates with, meaning Mark Penn, and his group.

That being said, I think in the couple of the months I've been here, I've posted one negative post about Hillary, and that was concerning Mark Penn. I don't post one or two line hit pieces on her, that's lazy, pedestrian, and just too easy and I don't go into positive threads on Halli ry, and throw myself into the mix. But I see that happen all the time to my positive posts on my candidate. And to others when they post on their candidate. I guess I just believe in fair play.

Second- there is undoubtedly a group of people here who seem to be in constant attack mode, and I think the name you coined for them is perfect, "Hillary's Haters." (I'm speaking to the original post here, linked below.) I've learned to laugh at them. Their candidate doesn't have much of a record to run on, she has zero Progressive credentials, and I'm still waiting to hear her vision for our great country. So they have little choice but to be on the attack, since there is no way to defend what this woman has done, or what she is saying.

I'd like to say, I love the OP:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3800106

President & First Lady

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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. yeah --uh huh
Not much of a record as a Progressive. You really nailed Hillary.


(This one's for you Perry)


Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 06:40 AM by Perry Logan
Please underline the corporate, anti-democracy stuff:

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Trust for Historic Preservation 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Wilderness Coalition 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Children's Defense Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Organization for Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 91 percent in 2006.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 100 percent in 2005

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence 100 percent from 1988-2003 (Senate) or 1991-2003 (House).

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Public Health Association 80 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers 84 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Worker 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees 88 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of Government Employees 83 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Committee for an Effective Congress 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 100 percent in 2005.

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on economic, defense and foreign policy issues than 80 percent of the Senators.

According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on social policy issues than 83 percent of the Senators.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Alliance for Retired Americans 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 92 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Bread for the World 100 percent in 2003-2004.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Partnership for the Homeless 100 percent in 2003-2004.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can...

She was promoting universal coverage before it was cool. Furthermore she helped to create the SCHIP program. And most importantly she was dead on in the debate the other week where she said political will was the most important thing needed to push health care reform through and we know without a doubt she has that.

She has fougt unrelentingly for a woman's right to choose as well as women's rights both domestically and abroad

Create a Strategic Energy Fund - Hillary has proposed a Strategic Energy Fund that would inject $50 billion into research, development and deployment of renewable energy, energy efficiency, clean coal technology, ethanol and other homegrown biofuels. Hillary's proposal would give oil companies a choice: invest in renewable energy or pay into the fund. Hillary's proposal would also eliminate oil company tax breaks and make sure that oil companies pay their fair share for drilling on public lands. Instead of sending billions of dollars to the Middle East for their oil, Hillary's proposal will create a new clean energy industry in America and create tens of thousands of jobs here.

Champion a Market-Based "Cap and Trade" Approach - Hillary supports a market-based, cap and trade approach to reducing carbon emissions and fight global warming. This approach was used successfully to limit sulfur dioxide and reduce levels of acid rain in the 1990s. By capping the amount of emissions in the environment and allowing corporations to buy and sell permits, this approach offers corporations a flexible, cost-efficient method to do their share to reduce emissions and combat global warming. The program will reduce emissions, drive the development of clean technologies, and create a market for projects that store carbon dioxide.

20% Renewable Electricity Standard by 2020 - Hillary believes we need to shift our reliance on high carbon electricity sources to low-carbon electricity sources by investing in renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind. As President, she'll work to require power companies to obtain 20 percent of their energy from renewable sources by 2020.

Make Federal Buildings Carbon Neutral - Hillary believes that the federal government should lead the way in reducing carbon emissions from buildings. Buildings account for 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, and the federal government owns or leases more than 500,000. Hillary would require all federal buildings to steadily increase the use of green design principles, energy efficient technologies, and to generate energy on-site from solar and other renewable sources. By 2030, all new federal buildings and major renovations would be carbon neutral, helping to fight global warming and cutting the $5.6 billion that the federal government spends each year on heating, cooling and lighting.

Protecting Against Exposure to Toxic Chemicals - Hillary wants to make the products we use safer, especially for children. There are tens of thousands of chemicals used in the U.S. and hundreds of new chemicals introduced each year, but little health testing is conducted for many of them. Hillary would require chemical companies to prove that new chemicals are safe before they are put on the market, and would set more stringent exposure standards for kids. She would also create a "priority list" of existing chemicals and require testing to make sure they are safe. To improve our understanding of the links between chemicals and diseases like cancer, Hillary would create an "environmental health tracking network" that ties together information about pollution and chronic diseases.

Hillary's Record

In the White House, Hillary led efforts to make adoption easier, to expand early learning and child care, to increase funding for breast cancer research, and to help veterans suffering from Gulf War syndrome who had too often been ignored in the past. She helped launch a national campaign to prevent teen pregnancy and helped create the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, which moved children from foster care to adoption more quickly and the number of children who have moved out of foster care into adoption has increased dramatically.

She was instrumental in designing and championing the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which has provided millions of children with health insurance. She battled the big drug companies to force them to test their drugs for children and to make sure all kids get the immunizations they need through the Vaccines for Children Program. Immunization rates dramatically improved after the program launched.

Hillary has been a leading member of the Environment and Public Works Committee since she was elected to the Senate. Today, she chairs the Superfund and Environmental Health Subcommittee and in that capacity has promoted legislation to evaluate and protect against the impact of environmental pollutants on people's health and clean up toxic waste.

Global warming and Clean Air
Spoken out forcefully about the need to tackle global warming in hearings, speeches, rallies and on the Senate floor and co-sponsored "cap and trade" legislation.
Worked to reduce air pollution that causes asthma and other respiratory diseases by writing and helping to pass new laws to clean up exhaust from school buses, and other diesel-powered equipment.
Supported legislation to reduce pollution from power plants, including harmful emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, and carbon dioxide - emissions that contribute to poor air quality, smog, acid rain, global warming, and mercury contamination of fish.
Aggressively fought the Bush Administration's ill-advised attempts to weaken clean air laws.

Improving Water Quality and Protecting Drinking Water
Helped to overturn the Bush Administration's attempt to allow more arsenic in drinking water.
Cosponsored legislation to protect lakes, rivers and coastal waters by fighting the spread of destructive invasive species, such as the zebra mussel.
Helped ot pass new clean water laws, including measures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

Protecting Public Lands
Fought oil company efforts to pen the Artic Wildlife Refuge in Alask and Pacific and Atlantic coastal waters to drilling.
Cosponsored the Roadless Area Conservation Act, which prohibits road construction and logging in unspoiled, roadless areas of the National Forest System, and voted for additional funding and manpower to combat forest fires in the west.

Reducing Dangerous Chemicals and Cleaning Up Hazardous Waste
Supported legislation to restore the "polluter pays" principle by reinstating a chemical company fee to fund cleanups of highly contaminated "Superfund" waste sites.
Cosponsored the "kids-Safe Chemical Act," which requires chemical companies to provide health and safety before putting new chemicals in consumer products.
Proposed legislation to create an environmental health tracking network to enable us to better understand the impact of environmental hazards on human health and well-being.

Tackling the Toxic Legacy of 9/11
Pushed for health care benefits for first responders, residents and others whose health has been impacted from breathing the toxic dust and smoke in New York City after 9/11.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/20/134810/677

Hillary Clinton co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977. In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter (for whom she had done 1976 campaign coordination work in Indiana) appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, and she served in that capacity from 1978 through the end of 1981. For much of that time she served as the chair of that board, the first woman to do so. During her time as chair, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.

Following the November 1978 election of her husband as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton became First Lady of Arkansas in January 1979, her title for a total of twelve years. Bill appointed her chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee the same year, where she successfully obtained federal funds to expand medical facilities in Arkansas' poorest areas without affecting doctors' fees.

Hillary Clinton chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee from 1982 to 1992, where she sought to bring about reform in the state's court-sanctioned public education system. One of the most important initiatives of the entire Clinton governorship, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place. She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth in 1985, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.

And a bit of stuff from the White House years:

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage. She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare. She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.

The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome. Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice. In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage.<124> She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare.<125> She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.<43> The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome.<43> Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.<43> In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.<43> As First Lady, Clinton hosted numerous White House Conferences, including ones on Child Care (1997),<126> Early Childhood Development and Learning (1997),<127> and Children and Adolescents (2000),<128> and the first-ever White House Conferences on Teenagers (2000)<129> and Philanthropy (1999).<130>

Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

"...Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries..."

More:
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/israe...
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/darfu...


The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%
easures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. You don't hate Hillary?
Edited on Thu Dec-06-07 12:49 PM by cuke
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Whatever...
Have a nice day.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Whatsamatter?
Don't want to explain yourself?
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. You still haven't explained yourself...
and your baseless accusations against me, and your lack of defense of Ms. Clinton's so-called "universal health-care" and "social security plan."
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
67. He's not enough of a hater to keep pounding on that dead horse.
That's "wassamadda".

Cheers.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm a hater. I hate the neo cons who stole my country


some things require hate.

like men that sexually abuse children

like men that torture

etc., etc.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. All good points.
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
65. Ditto!
OW! Can I use that word here??? :hide:
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. How does that children's rhyme go? Liar..liar pants on fire...
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. hillary seems to
have supporters who like to throw out that invective cause they can't defend her policies..it's like one of those brilliant ideas that the hillary campaign has that goes over with a resounding thud.

Are you sure you didn't write an essay in kindergarten that said Anything about "hate"?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. No, but he posted something a few minutes ago
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Throw all the mud you can and see what sticks?
Yeah, I've seen that tactic used here many, many times.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:01 PM
Original message
You've even done it yourself
when you accused Hillary's endorsers of being "bought" That is, before you backed down
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. I did not back down...
You're so good at finding links...

Go boy, fetch!
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:05 PM
Original message
So were her endorsement bought, or not?
Is yes, who was bought and how were they bought?
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
21. I don't have to answer questions that I've already answered-
Edited on Thu Dec-06-07 01:14 PM by asdjrocky
Just because you keep asking.

Go boy.... go on.... get the link.... fetch!
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. You never answered
I've posted the link. Show us where you answered
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. i'm a hater and proud
fuck the DLC and their ilk.

:hi:
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. lol-
I sure don't like the policies and politics of these people, but still, I can't say I hate.

Sorry.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. nah
they like to throw the term around carelessly, so i embrace it.

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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Like my mom always said-
Just because everyone else is doing it...
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. that doesn't really apply though
unless i started calling everyone else haters.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. lol
true
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. The dlc certainly does
suck and their ilk is just as sucky. It doesn't look like you're going to join a "haters anonymous" group, anytime soon.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. not at all
this is actually in response to a few DUers i just read on some thread claiming that the members of DU who hate their girl are too cowardly to admit it.

:hi:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. Ahhhh....I hate her policies
and her 7 long years, with many deaths and maims, of bushite enabling..and her back stabbin' Kerry, and her lying about Iran and thinking colin powell is worthy.. but I'm sure she'd be a very nice person after rehab.

:hi: sniffa
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
14. "I don't hate Hillary, but..."
Edited on Thu Dec-06-07 01:06 PM by Occam Bandage
Apparently we have another heir to, "now, some of my best friends are black. I'm no racist, but..."

So your argument is:
1. You laugh at Hillary supporters.
2. Hillary has no liberal credentials.
3. Hillary has no vision.
4. Hillary supporters only engage in attacks.
5. Hillary's actions are indefensible.
6. Hillary's words are indefensible.
7. You don't like the thought of being a "hater."

I'm sorry, but that doesn't quite mesh, you know? You post a thread in which the first half is talking about how fair you are and how you wouldn't consider yourself a hater, and then spend the second half flaming Sen. Clinton and her supporters.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. and in another thread, he says he hates Clinton
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. You do realize...
Some people are going to click on those links and realize there is no there, there.

But carry on, and thanks for the kick...
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Yes there is a there, there.
The other poster said "posts like these make me hate Hillary even more". You and couple of others came in and said you agree. Which means, you hate her already but the post made you hate her more. Or were you just kidding?
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Ok-
You are right, I agreed, perhaps I should have said, I don't hate her, I hate her policies. But seriously, aren't we picking nits here?
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. No, not nitpicking.
Maybe if you hadn't started this thread no one would have picked up on it. :hi:
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. We'll agree then to disagree-
I believe it is nitpicking.

You are entitled to your own opinion.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. You say you hate her, and then say you don't
Obviously, your commitment to the truth is as small as a nit and you don't like that I'm picking at it

You're entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. So do you or don't you hate Clinton?
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. I do not hate Hillary Clinton!
There, I said it. I'll even vote for her if she wins the nomination. I've said that here, many, many times.

But I absolutely detest her politics.

Sorry, it's just the way I feel.

Also, I might be confused, I am kind of new still, but doesn't a 'Post' start a thread, and isn't everything that comes after that 'Post' considered to be a 'Reply'?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Then why did you say you hate her?
One of them has to be untrue. Which one is it? Why did you say it if you don't believe it?

Are you unable to control what you say?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. TeamJordan says he hates Clinton and you agree
But there's not there, there.

All you have is denial
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. What a joke you are-
Still waiting for any real proof.

.....
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. You posted the single word "agreed" to the statement "Posts like this just make me hate Hillary
more."

That means you stated that:

1. You hate Hillary.
2. Posts like that increase the level of hatred you have for Hillary.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. And he can't defend himself
Instead, he will attack us for "nit picking". Obviously, his telling the truth is not important in his eyes
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. How is disagreeing with someones-
policies and politics, hating them?

Seriously people, take a long hard look at the word hate.

My words aren't personal, I do not like the politics of these people, why is that so hard to understand?
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. There is a wide gulf between
"I disagree with someone's policies" and "I laugh at a candidate's supporters." That's personal, even if you claim it isn't.

There is a wide gulf between "I disagree with someone's politics" and "A candidate's supporters are haters, because they know their candidate is indefensible." That's personal, even if you claim it isn't.

Disagreement is benign. Scorn is malign. When you start ascribing malicious intellects and irrational motives to your political enemies, well...you can say that isn't "hating," but I would disagree. Judging by the lengthy preemptive denial of hatred that preceded your spasm of "impersonal disagreement," I would guess that you harbor a few doubts yourself.
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. He seems to be a little passive-agressive IMO.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. No, he's pretending to be something he isnt so he can attack others
Edited on Thu Dec-06-07 01:40 PM by cuke
for doing what he does - hate
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. That too lol.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. I don't know about "hater", but he's sure not a fighter
He still hasn't explained why he posted that he hates Clinton.
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. He does a swell job of cheerleading for Edwards.
I'll leave it at that.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
30. I don't think you're a hater either but
I can't say I think much of your posting a picture of Clinton alongside a a picture of bushco with the quote "meet the new boss same as the old boss". I think that's bullshit and when people react to it as such, you shouldn't be surprised.

Furthermore, I cut Clinton supporters here some slack. They're in the minority and Clinton and her supporters get by far the most flak. I'm not talking about real criticism; I'm talking about bullshit. They're defensive and it doesn't take a shrink to figure out why.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Cali-
You've been here far longer than me, so I do try to take what you say, and really listen to it.

However, some of the most hateful people I've see here, have been her supporters. I won't name names, but you do know who they are. And my problem is, most of their attacks have little or no substance.

My OP was really to them.

As far as the picture, you have to understand, I honestly see very little difference between the two. I won't apologize for my opinion on that. I've lived through both administrations too. But have you every seen me start a thread with that pic? No, I use that in response to hate. And that is the only time.

I have a way I live my life Cali, it's not perfect, and I'm not perfect, and I'm certainly no genus, but I can recognize baseless attacks when I see them.

And we do see a lot of them here.

Do we agree on this?
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Two statements:
"However, some of the most hateful people I've see here, have been her supporters. I won't name names, but you do know who they are. And my problem is, most of their attacks have little or no substance...my OP was really to them."

AND

"My words aren't personal."

-----

You're tripping over yourself left and right here.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Two more statements "I'm not a hater"
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Not sure, really, what you mean.
I'm honestly just asking for clarity.

Truly, my words are not personal.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. You are criticizing people based on their personality
That is a personal attack, as opposed to an attack on the issues.

This forum was not meant for us to discuss each other. It was meant to discuss the campaigns
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. You are attacking individuals for what you declare to be their motivations.
That's about as personal as it gets.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
51. it's just not neccessary to post that picture. it's inflammatory
it's as inflammatory as it would be if someone started posting a picture of JE next to a picture of the 9th ward post-katrina with the caption "What John Edwards did for New Orleans, he'll now do for the rest of America". And you know what? That would be just as dishonest as your insistence that Hillary=bushco. You've been presented with her record in the Senate enough times to know that her positions are, 99% of the time, the polar opposite from bush, so you can't claim ignorance.

I agree that some of Clinton's supporters here are beyond the pale, but I disagree that they're more beyond the pale than supporters of some others. You might consider that you're perspective is colored by your strong dislike for Clinton.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. .
"I agree that some of Clinton's supporters here are beyond the pale, but I disagree that they're more beyond the pale than supporters of some others. You might consider that you're perspective is colored by your strong dislike for Clinton."

You make a very good point, in this statement. But this is my thing- I didn't have such negative feelings for her, until I came here. And I guess, that's where some animosity comes from.

So my question is this, since I pay little attention to MSM, who then is coloring my preemptions?

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. well, i suppose it's possible that you have a predispostion to dislike
her as you consider her to be a centrist/DLC bot. Combine that with how you perceive her supporters here, and you end up with an increased hostility toward her. But why let the supporters you can't stand, influence you so?
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Simple-
I've learned a few lessons in my life and this is one-

who someones friends are, matters. All my life, I've been able to judge people by the company that they keep.

This might not be 100% effective, but it's worked for me so far. May be a pretty home spun answer, but that has been my experience in life.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. ok, but two things: 1) political supporters are hardly friends- it's
just not the same thing, and 2) there are relataively few Clinton supporters here, and they definitely feel defensive- and with good reason- about their support of her. Defensiveness often causes people to behave at their worst, not their best. And one more thing: supporters of other candidates are also insufferable. I think the lens with which you view this is colored.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. IMO, there's nothing wrong with being influenced by one's peers
but there's something wrong denying that they had an influence or pretending to be something that one is not.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. .
You can't really challenge my integrity. I'm the only person in the world with that power.

Didn't anyone ever teach you that?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. Think again Csli
In another thread he said he agreed with TeamJordan when TJ said "Threads like these make me hate Clinton more"

The OP is full of shiite
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. You keep talking about the same thread-
Edited on Thu Dec-06-07 01:49 PM by asdjrocky
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I'll talk about it as long as you ignore it
and the way you talk out of both sides of your mouth
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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
40. yes I hate republicans
all of them but that does mean I'm not civil
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
56. I hate Biden's hair.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. lol
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surfermaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
66. If you want to win in 2008
You should go with the winner and nominated person, other wise don't be suprised if we get a man as dumb as the one we have in the White House now, after all many heads are much smarter than one.
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