Who are the only 2 Senators who ducked the vote in the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment?

[mtnsnake]

Poll question: Who are the only 2 Senators who ducked the vote in the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment?

98 out of 100 Senators showed up for work.

Only 2 Senators didn't put their asses on the line.

[zulchzulu]

1. Who showed "up for work" and did Bush's bidding?

Is not voting for war with Iran better than voting for war for Iran?

I think I know the answer.

[Clintonista2]

3. It all ties back to Obama's inability to take a controversial position.

*cue flashbacks of his horrid "present" abortion record while in the state legislature*

[PresidentObama]

11. "Inability to take a controversial position" Sounds like HRC on illegal licenses.

Well, she did.

Finally.

After flip-flopping five or six times...

[Dawgs]

21. Being against the war when your girl voted for it wasn't controversial?

And, as far as his abortion record, maybe you should read what Pam Sutherland(a Hillary supporter) says about Obama's record while in the Illinois Senate.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2007/12/disparagement-o.html

“I am a supporter of Hillary Clinton and an EMILY’s List donor, but this line of attack is unacceptable. While I was the president of Chicago National Organization for Women, Senator Obama worked closely with us, could not have been more supportive of a woman¹s right to choose, and there was no bigger champion in Illinois on our issues. What¹s important is that the candidates do not cannibalize each other on issues we all agree about because we need to win in November.” Lorna Brett, former president of Chicago NOW

"During his years in the state legislature, Barack Obama was a strong and consistent supporter of women's reproductive rights. He worked hand-in-hand with Planned Parenthood in developing and executing strategies to make sure that women had access to reproductive health care. I also want to thank him for standing up with us in the effort to open the Aurora clinic and for his introduction of legislation guaranteeing access to low-cost birth control. Planned Parenthood/Chicago Area has proudly endorsed Barack throughout his entire political career." Steve Trombley, CEO & President, Planned Parenthood/Chicago Action


"The present votes Obama took at that time, along with many other pro-choice legislators, were 'no' votes to bad bills being used for political gain. We asked Senator Obama and other strong supporters of choice to vote present to encourage Senators facing tough re-elections to make the right choice by voting present, instead of caving to political pressure and voting for these bad bills. In the Illinois State Senate, Obama showed leadership, compassion and a true commitment to reproductive health care. The Republican Senate President at the time constantly used anti-abortion bills to pigeon-hole Democrats so that he could target them with misleading mailers during campaign season. It was a tactic that was about politics, not policy - and Obama didn't let them get away with it." Pam Sutherland, President & CEO of Illinois Planned Parenthood Council


“Senator Obama is one of America’s strongest and most loyal defenders of women’s rights on issues of reproductive health care. I’ve contributed to EMILY’s List in the past ­ but I never will again, because I¹m so disappointed in their decision to launch these unfair, false attacks on behalf of Senator Clinton¹s campaign.” Libby Slappey, a former 13-year board member of Planned Parenthood of East Central Iowa.

[cali]

22. *sigh*

I deplore the yea votes on this, but they were not a vote for war. Do you understand what a sense of the Senate resolution is? Do you know how K/L differs from the IWR?

[cuke]

65. They do it because they can't defend Obama

so instead they attack Clinton. All you have to do to prove this is ask "If it was a vote for war, then why did Obama miss such an important vote?"

[Renew Deal]

2. Why did this require a poll?

You could have just said "McCain and Obama are the only senators to miss the vote." One line. Nice and easy.

[oasis]

56. I say "bravo". This is a far more effective way of spotlighting Obama's cowardice.

:hide: He can run, but he cannot hide.

[polichick]

4. Interesting combo...

Is covering his ass one of McCain's new political tools?

[AtomicKitten]

5. Hillary voted YES on K-L and was the only Dem candidate that did.

That's all I need to know. It is those YES votes for war that resonate.

[Occam Bandage]

12. So you think it's a vote for war? You don't have a problem with

your candidate not showing up on a vote for motherfucking war?

[PresidentObama]

14. I'd rather he not show up, then vote yes. And it's not a vote for war, it's the first step.

[Occam Bandage]

24. In the same way that I'd rather be punched in the balls than kicked. Not a defense.

[PresidentObama]

29. I'm not saying Obama shouldn't of showed up. But at least he didn't vote yes.

Hillary deserves the criticism she's getting.

Maybe Obama deserves some for not showing up.

But which is worse. Honestly.

[Occam Bandage]

35. Again, not a defense. Both of them acted politically, and not in the interest of America.

Hillary voted to look "tough," instead of voting in the interest of America.
Obama skipped the vote so he could avoid looking "weak" and at the same time avoid looking "like a warmonger," instead of voting in the interest of America.

The bill passed 76-22. Both were just posturing. Neither is "worse." It's the same shit.

[mtnsnake]

43. Couldn't agree more

with all you've said in this thread.

[blondeatlast]

26. Not with this pResident, it ain't. nt

[mtnsnake]

13. Unfortunately, 60% of her Democratic peers joined her & 1 refused to put his ass on the line

[AtomicKitten]

18. and yet that STILL beats the hell out of voting "yes" on it

[mtnsnake]

25. For him, maybe

I would have been way more impressed if he showed up and voted "NO", instead of missing another hard vote. If he becomes our candidate, one of the things that the other side will do is they'll go after him for missing so many of the hard votes in the Senate. They did this last time during the debates.

[AtomicKitten]

No, for America.

I'll gladly put up Obama's attendance/voting record against Hillary's vote for war and more war. Any day of the week.

[mtnsnake]

33. Why are you making this about Hillary?

The thread is clearly about the two Senators who missed the important Kyl-Lieberman vote. I'm not hear to defend Hillary and her choice of voting for this, nor am I defending any of the other 29 Democrats who voted for it.

(edited to take the word "just" out of the subject line)

[AtomicKitten]

38. Your focus is on those that didn't vote and

my point is that that is not the crux of this issue but rather a technique of subterfuge to try to mitigate her YES vote. It is an age-old campaign tactic of moving the goal posts and skewing the subject to prevent discussion of what is really important.

And I will leave you to it.

[Dawgs]

46. I disagree. This is about how Obama voted vs. the other candidates.

And, like many of us have said, Obama has admitted it was a mistake.

Now, you may want to limit your outrage to attack Obama, but his supporters have every right to defend him.

And, we all know who started this talking point today, and it wasn't Dodd, Biden, Edwards, or any other candidate not named Hillary.

[Dawgs]

31. I would have been more impressed if he voted "NO", but he did admit it was a mistake.

Has Hillary admitted her vote for the Iraq war was a mistake?

[AtomicKitten]

41. The vote passed by 50+ votes so his would have made no difference.

I accept that because he is, after all, running for president. He is on the record for having opposed it, and he also made the decision not to try to get back to vote because he knew the outcome, and he was right. Others can try to mitigate Hillary's yes vote by hammering Obama for not voting but, again, yes votes on matters of war are what start wars, not nonvotes.

[Occam Bandage]

42. "yes votes on matters of war are what start wars, not nonvotes."

No votes on matters of war are what stop wars, not nonvotes. As Burke said, all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

[AtomicKitten]

45. do the math

If you can find 50+ Senators to berate that may have changed the outcome, I'll entertain your view that Obama should be shamed for not voting. Until then, it is Hillary's YES votes on war and more war that resonate.

[Occam Bandage]

48. One can turn that around.

"If one can find 26 other Senators who would have changed their votes, I'll entertain your view that Clinton should be shamed for her 'yes' vote."

More double standards, I see.

[AtomicKitten]

50. Your tap-dancing to rationalize her YES votes on war are impressive.

Hey, if you're good on her votes for war and more, have at. She's your girl alright.

[Dawgs]

52. Hey, this is all about bringing down Obama. Didn't you see the OP?

:sarcasm: :hi:

[Occam Bandage]

55. If you've bothered reading this thread, you'll see that I'm opposed to

both Obama's and Clinton's cowardice here.

[Beacool]

69. What do you mean by "the only Democrat who did"????

There were 20-25 Democrat senators who voted "yes" (I don't have time to check the exact number).

[Dawgs]

6. Obama agrees with you. From last debate, 'It was a mistake', but...

He was, and also has been, against the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment.

If Edwards supporters can forgive him the Iraq war vote, then I can forgive Obama for missing a vote; especially when I know that he would have voted the way I wanted anyways.

Nice try though.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

19. This is a flat falsehood

"He was, and also has been, against the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment."

Nonsense.

He is a longstanding supporter of the IRG designation, to this day.

Whatever differences he claims to have with K/L are over peripheral aspects of the measure, and are so weak he can barely enunciate them.

Obama's objections to K/L were concocted only AFTER the vote, and AFTER his campaign determined how Hillary's vote was playing on the internet. He never said a thing about voting against K/L until after the fact.

[Dawgs]

23. No it is not.

But, since you are so angry at candidates that vote for war, who do you support? Kucinich?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

39. Touche!

If you are cool with a candidates positions that's fine.

Just don't lie about them.

[mtnsnake]

7. Whoever voted for choice #3, thank you! I was hoping that combo would tally at least 1 vote

:evilgrin:

[PresidentObama]

8. Who was it who voted yes? Ah, the princess of peace. The one who claims she'll end the war in Iraq.

But will continue combat missions.

And the same gal who voted for the first step in the march to war with Iran.

[Occam Bandage]

15. 76 Senators voted yes, HRC included.

[PresidentObama]

17. And 76 Senators were wrong. Dead wrong.

[mtnsnake]

20. Correct. 46 Republican Senators & 30 Democratic Senators voted "yes"

[Occam Bandage]

28. Which is 3/5 of the Democratic delegation to the Senate.

This is not a Hillary-centric issue. This is a bogus campaign issue.

How to tell if something's a bogus campaign issue? Real simple, actually. Ask: does anybody talk about this issue, except vis-a-vis its relation to a candidate? Nobody discusses K-L except to either:

1. Bash Clinton.
2. Bash Obama.
3. Praise their candidate for not being like Clinton or Obama.

[Connie_Corleone]

9. Obama admitted it was a mistake on his part to miss the vote.

So what's with the poll?

It still doesn't make it any better that Hillary voted for it.

[PresidentObama]

10. Who knows, honestly. I'd rather Obama not show up than vote yes like Hillary did.

[Dawgs]

27. Thank you. This fake outrage over someone missing votes vs. how people actually voted is hilarious.

How Hillary supporters can continue to live with themselves is beyond me.

Unfortunately, it just may work and knock Obama down a notch. If it does, I hope Edwards can win Iowa and take it all the way to the WH; hopefully with Obama as his VP.

[Occam Bandage]

32. It's not fake outrage. It's refusing to accept Obamites' fake outrage.

If Obama supporters were really concerned about this bill, they'd be equally angry at both Clinton and Obama for not trying to stop it from passing.

[Dawgs]

36. Obama and I agree with you. "It was a mistake", but Hillary voting yes was far worse.

[Occam Bandage]

40. There's no "worse" here. Both took the route of greatest political expediency.

Both avoided fighting it, so they wouldn't look "weak on terror." Clinton took political deviousness a step further than Obama, by voting the "wrong" way so she could look stronger. Obama took political cowardice a step further than Clinton, by avoiding any sort of vote at all. Given that the bill was going to pass regardless, they were both posturing. I can't say that I think either is worse than the other.

[Dawgs]

49. Your argument is different than mine.

I think we are going to have to disagree.

[Tellurian]

30. Here are a few votes Obama showed up for:

*Despite his anti-war positions as a candidate in 2004, Obama's second vote as a U.S. Senator was in support of confirming Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of State.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00002

*He also voted to confirm John Negroponte as Director of National Intelligence, despite Negroponte's involvement in Iran-Contra and other situations that clearly raise questions about his ethics and discretion.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00107

*Obama also voted for a bill to limit citizens rights to seek legal redress against abusive corporations. During the bankruptcy debate, he helped vote down a Democratic amendment to cap the abusive interest rates credit card companies could charge. And now, Obama cast a key procedural vote in support of President Bush's right-wing judges.

http://www.davidsirota.com/2005/02/class-action-sellouts.html

Yes, Obama and John Edwards are just like "two peas in a pod". Neither one has done anything to HELP people. Three good reason why, they are UNelectable!

[Dawgs]

34. So then you must be really pissed about Hillary voting for the war.

Right? No?

Or, maybe you are okay with how she voted?

Or, maybe you want to ignore what she did and just attack the other candidates? If I was a Hillary supporter, I know it would be a lot easier than trying to defend her disastrous record.

[Tellurian]

47. I'm fine with Hillary floor statement.. Your arguments are old and lame..

Please try to defend Obama as to why he $old out the American people with his Vote for a Right Wing Judge, Condi Rice and his supporting High Interest Rates for consumers Credit Cards.

If you can't or won't defend your candidate, I'll take it, you are in full agreement with me!

[Dawgs]

51. You can't have it both ways Tellurian.

You expect me to answer your points that don't relate to anything in this thread, but when answering my point you state that it is "old and lame".

And, where did Obama sell out the American people? Did anyone die because Obama voted for a right wing judge? Did a vote for Condi Rice cause any innocent children to get killed? When you answer these questions, which have been asked many times before, I will get back to you on yours.

[Tellurian]

53. I'm not having it both ways..

So, you support Obama's vote for Bush appointing a RW Judge, Condi Rice and Obama advocating High Interest Credit Card Rates!

[mtnsnake]

54. Dawgs, next you'll be blaming Hillary for Obama ducking the vote

You, more than anyone else on this thread, are attempting to make this all about Hillary

Instead of making it all about Hillary why don't you try defending Obama for a change? He's the one who skipped town, not Hillary.

[Dawgs]

58. Why would I defend Obama. He and I both admit it was a mistake.

I've said it at least four times in this thread.

But, that doesn't mean I can't go after other candidates when it relates to this topic. Tellurian is the one that tried to change the subject.

[Tellurian]

59. I'm on Topic...you are not.. The topic is Obama's votes or non-votes

Are these Votes made by Obama forgiveable mistakes too?

"Unfortunately, his first six months in office have given progressives a reason to be worried that he will be just another cog in the Establishment's machine, throwing his significant political capital behind some of the worst initiatives to move through Congress.

Despite his anti-war positions as a candidate in 2004, Obama's second vote as a U.S. Senator was in support of confirming Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of State. He also voted to confirm John Negroponte as Director of National Intelligence, despite Negroponte's involvement in Iran-Contra and other situations that clearly raise questions about his ethics and discretion. Obama also voted for a bill to limit citizens rights to seek legal redress against abusive corporations. During the bankruptcy debate, he helped vote down a Democratic amendment to cap the abusive interest rates credit card companies could charge. And now, Obama cast a key procedural vote in support of President Bush's right-wing judges.

Sure, sure - some other Democrats have cast some of these votes as well. Doesn't that mean I'm just picking on him? No, of course not. Obama was supposed to be different - he was supposed to be a real progressive champion. Isn't that why so many liberals/progressives are so excited about him?

Speculation about why Obama has cast these votes centers around the typical posturing that has created the soulless image for the last few years - namely, that he's just opportunistically angling for higher office. One political scientist said "I think he’s moving to the center to position himself to perhaps run for president in 2012." Another said Obama "does not want to be seen as a maverick."

http://www.davidsirota.com/2005/05/whats-happened-to-barack-obama.html

The "devil is in the details", here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3796800#3797016

[Beacool]

70. Nope, they're still blaming Reid for that one.......... n/t

[William769]

16. Is one of the two the one that used to be a State Legislature, that usually voted present?

I see a common denominator here.

[Occam Bandage]

37. The "present" votes aren't a problem, IMO. Those are saying,

"This is a bullshit catch-22 campaign issue, and I'm not going to play that game."

[William769]

44. And Here I thought they were saying, I'm not taking a stand.

:eyes:

[Forkboy]

57. I think this topic hurts Hillary more than Obama though.

In my opinion neither one is impressive on the issue, and both sides might be best served by avoiding it as much as possible.

[quinnox]

60. Obama made a mistake in skipping this

before Obama swarmers jump on me, check out a recent debate, Obama admitted he made a mistake by not voting.

[rucky]

61. Consider supporting the Senators that voted NO.

"Yes" and "No-Vote" and "I would've voted No" aren't the only choices we have among the candidates - although you'd never know it from this thread.

[BenDavid]

62. African-Americans are supporting HRC because they know

her and believe she can do a far better job of representing the hopes and wishes of the black community. Did I say that? No, it was Donna Brazille on CNN's Situation Room.

The Clintons number among those exceedingly rare white politicians who actually like black people and are more than comfortable being around them. Add actual political experiece to that and your’ve got a winning combination. Obama is a PR parade float.

There is something patronzing in Mrs Obama's assumption that its some sort of ingrained fear keeping blacks from backing her husband. What a low opinion of others she evidences and perhaps an inflated view of Barack himself.

Does it not occur to her that perhaps these could be people who think independently and for themselves and are not still bound to a historical or community perception? What if those not coming out to support him simply don’t agree with his politics, or his social stands, or his views on Iraq, or any other issue that the next POTUS will be facing?

Why doesn’t she give this community the benefit of the doubt instead of yet another negative assumption - but then that would entail having to admit her husband might not be the best candidate….

Ben David

[ellisonz]

63. "The Clintons number among those exceedingly rare white politicians who actually like black people"

Link?

[Hippo_Tron]

64. Who cares?

[Progress And Change]

66. amazing. tim johnson showed up but obama and mccain couldn't be bothered to vote...

[dionysus]

67. i know, i know!! Brewer and Shipley!!

:hi:
One toke over the line, sweet Mtnsnake, one toke over the line
Sittin' downtown at the DLC station, one toke over the line
Waitin' for the train to DC, sweet Hillary
Hoping that the train is on time...
Sittin' downtown at the DLC station, one toke over the line

Who do you love, if not Hillary
she's not been changing, she'still DLC...
he felt the joy and he learned about the pain that the Big Dawg felt
If he should choose to make it part of him
Would surely strike him dead, and now he's

One toke over the line, sweet Mtnsnake, one toke over the line
Sittin' downtown at the DLC station, one toke over the line
Waitin' for the train to DC, sweet Hillary
Hoping that the train is on time...
Sittin' downtown at the DLC station, one toke over the line

he sails away, an Iowa mile
And now he's returning, and showing off his smile
he met all the candidates and loved himself a few, but to his surprise...
someone else got elected...
and it opened up his eyes! and now he's...

One toke over the line, sweet Mtnsnake, one toke over the line
Sittin' downtown at the DLC station, one toke over the line
Waitin' for the train to DC, sweet Hillary
Hoping that the train is on time...
Sittin' downtown at the DLC station, one toke over the line

[mtnsnake]

71. %!@##!%^X!

dammit I took a chance and opened the post. Am I ever sorry now! :mad:

[Beacool]

68. That's only because he couldn't vote "present". LOL!!! n/t

[Gloria]

72. The crew just drips with leadership, don't they???

:sarcasm: