I think this so-called Clinton machine is OVERRATED

[bigdarryl]

I am not saying theydon't have a good organization when campaigning i believe they do but i think the media over hypes it as the most feared political machine in the country. I remember when Mondale was running against Coleman for the Senate the Clinton's came roaring into town campaigning for Mondale and the media went crazy saying this is going to be a tremendous help to Mondale having the Clinton's in town. and look what happened the citizens of Minnestoa got very upset how the Clinton's came into town and Coleman beat Mondale who was originally favored to win that Senate race 50% to 47% so what i am saying is sometimes having the Clinton's around with there campaigning can back fire

[liberalnurse]

1. I fail to see the connection with

Mondale/Coleman....with a 10 day emergency campaign verses the Clinton Campaign for a full Primary Cycle.

[Romulox]

2. We're seeing that the Big Dog can be a distinct liability (e.g. "I never supported Iraq war...") nt

[ccpup]

3. your premise for Mondale's loss is interesting

as many in that State wonder how Coleman made such an amazing comeback right on Election Day. Hmmmmm ...

http://www.startribune.com/stories/784/3397944.html
Oct 30. Dramatic political developments since Sen. Paul Wellstone's death Friday have had little effect on voters' leanings in the U.S. Senate race, according to a Star Tribune Minnesota Poll taken Monday night.Wellstone's likely replacement on the ballot, former Vice President Walter Mondale, leads Republican Norm Coleman by 47 to 39 percent -- close to where the race stood two weeks ago when Wellstone led Coleman 47 to 41 percent.


Final Result
50 to 47 Coleman (3 points)

[TheDebbieDee]

5. Did the repukes steal another election?

Everytime I read or hear about a "surprising" repuke election win, I wonder if the repukes stole it!

[ccpup]

6. yes, it's quite possible

the 2002 wins in Georgia (where Max Cleland polled 12 points ahead of Saxby Chambliss the day before the Election, but lost by 5) and Minnesota (same deal, different State), both voted on with Diebold Machines seem to indicate that that's what happened.

[patrice]

4. Media definitely over-simplifies EVERYTHING, hence

what they say is not Real.

We The People are the ones who are Real.

[blm]

7. That machine stayed quiet and wouldn't oppose Bush's machine the last 7yrs

would it?

The media is making Democrats intimidated about the CLINTON MACHINE as if they can't win without Bill the same way they convinced Republicans they needed Rove and the Bush machine. So we've been getting lawmakers and spokespeople that fear disagreeing with that machine and their 'advice' for the party.

[CoffeeCat]

8. The American people will reject...

anything that resembles or smells like a "political machine".

US citizens don't like their candidates marketed to them with a well-oiled
array of large speeches, slogans and meaningless television ads.

If a politician looks overly produced--and does not make an effort
to really connect with Americans in an honest, open fashion--Americans will
ultimately reject this.

These types of highly orchestrated campaigns may attract attention
at first, but Americans will firmly reject a candidate who is nothing
more than a marketing apparatus.

It appears fake.

Many are skeptical of Mrs. Clinton because she appears overly
managed and plastic. The way she is running her campaign magnifies these negatives.
Her planted questions certainly didn't help. I believe that's why her polls are suffering.

People are rejecting the Clinton machine and paying attention to
other candidates--many of whom are sounding more genuine, passionate
and honest right now.

[patrice]

14. No one likes having their candidates picked for them by those

who claim the accumen to do so.

We REALLY would like to be asked. Starting the campaign sooooooo early this year with so many candidates is as close to being actually asked who we want as I can ever remember being. But, we CAN do better.

[Colobo]

9. The Clinton Machine will be crushed by the Obama Train.

[ccpup]

13. it's kinda sad

just a short time ago, you were much less partisan in your support of Obama and certainly much more open to having balanced discussion and the sharing of ideas. Recently, though, your language and support of him has become a lot more "in your face" aggressive -- crushed by the Obama Train? -- with an almost childishly gleeful attempt to rub salt into what you perceive are Clinton's wounds.

I am disappointed in this because we did have some interesting back and forth not long ago that was based on what I thought was mutual respect and a truly adult agree-to-disagree attitude that I found refreshing on a place like DU.

Where did THAT Poster go?

[PurityOfEssence]

15. How many pom-poms do you run through in a week?

Just askin'...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. I Know You And I Have Had Some Battles

But I think we can agree that mindless sloganeering doesn't help the discourse nor does gloating as if we are rooting for the Cowboys against the Redskins...

[PurityOfEssence]

23. It takes all kinds; some people LIKE high school pep rallies...

It's just one of the many reasons I've never had any use for sports whatsoever.

The juvenile approach abounds here, but it's just human nature. People are routinely accusing those who attack their popular candidates as being "jealous". They dance the triumphal dismissal stomp (like the post that sparks this little exchange). They attribute all derision from any supporters of a particular candidate to each and every supporter of that candidate, while they take no responsibility for the ugliness that comes from fellow supporters of their champion. They hold us ransom for their gender or ethnic ax that they're grinding, yet often deny it completely when confronted. They slag other groups, yet expect immunity.

The cutesy sloganeering just grates on the already abraded surface.

I couldn't agree more.

[Carrieyazel]

10. Hillaryland is running a lackluster, front-running "not to lose" campaign.

That's the problem. There have been many like it in the past. They fell into the same old trap. There isn't any vision, and the tactics are questionable. She's running essentially on name recognition, and a lot of voters aren't buying her contentions.

[asdjrocky]

11. Just look what the Machine did for Kerry/Edwards 04

Oh, wait, they didn't do shit.

Yeah, these people really care about our country.

[Nedsdag]

12. Of course the Clinton machine is overrated.

Ask John Kerry in 2004. Granted Kerry wasn't the best candidate; however, the Clintonites weren't helpful.

[Cameron27]

18. Does anyone know if Kerry/Edwards actually wanted

Bill to campaign for them? Serious question. Gore certainly didn't, and went with the moral family values guy, Lieberman to take the Clinton sting out. So is there any sourced info that shows Kerry wanted the guy's good/bad publicity attached to his campaign?

[mtnsnake]

19. No, but there's a certain propaganda machine that has obviously swayed more than a few DU'ers

You know which one...the one that always paints the Clintons as the enemy and how Bill was more interested in being in bed with Poppy and all that other nonsense that doesn't hold a drop of water, which this machine has been spouting for more than a couple years now on this forum...and getting away with to this day.

When shit like that is allowed to get repeated over and over on a "democratic" forum, sooner or later some of the people are gonna suck it up as if it's gospel.

[Cameron27]

21. Yes I know the one,

and I've been looking for anything that Kerry had to say on the subject. It wouldn't surprise me if Kerry decided not to risk his campaign being tainted by Clinton's Monica scandal.

[Stop Cornyn]

16. Her machine here at DU is certainly well-oiled. Only Biden comes close in terms of so few supporters

pushing a candidate so relentlessly.

[PurityOfEssence]

20. It's overrated in precisely the same way Rove is.

They're not "brilliant" by any stretch of the lack of imagination. They're fighting an off-the-rack standard old ward-heeling machine-bulldozing by a frontrunner with massive money and powerful supporters. The look, feel and taste of the operation is wholesale industrial politics with cliched retail politickin' slathered over the rough edges.

Rove was considered a genius just because he was totally unscrupulous and had no compunction about going for the throat, playing upon racism, outrightly lying and crushing opposition with repetitive simplicity based on fear and greed. He made plenty of mistakes, but the awe I saw so many have for him is akin to the thrill a nun gets out of watching a gangster movie: the thrill of vicariously doing what they'd never let themselves do.

The Clinton machine is using nothing new and many transparent and smarmy tactics that turn people off, especially people who don't like the slimy underside of politics. Posturing and standard procedure are their thing, and they're fighting the traditional frontrunner's race: claiming to be above the fray and calling for calm, which always benefits the current leader. The nastiness shows savage teeth when cornered, though, and the dirty tricks of planting questions, insinuating dirt on opponents, misrepresenting events, padding resumes, playing upon cultural or ethnic bigotry while denying it and demanding that one's own self-assessment goes unquestioned are hardly new tactics.

What hurts them most is their one-note brutality: crush all oppositon resoundingly. Sure, it's better than Kerry sitting while being wronged, but to respond to everything with the subtlety of dropping a cargo container of bricks on them doesn't work all the time. Weaklings and vengeful people relish seeing wrath vented on their common enemies, but the rest of us see ruthlessness and privilege in such methods.

Nothing new here. What's worse is that they're sloppy. They take a photo op and comandeer the life story of a poster-woman waitress, but don't make sure the tip's obviously handled. The denials are emphatic even when they're completely contradictory, and the outrage at even being questioned echoes to any questioner like thunder. The way questions were planted was sloppy. The piled-on old boy's club was sloppy and denials of it were cloying and feeble.

Sadly, though, tried-and-true means precisely that: it often works, so the race doesn't necessarily go to the imaginative, and nobody's campaign's been particularly competent all the time.

[mtnsnake]

22. Gimme a break. You didn't describe the Clintons. You described just about every politician ever born

with what you said in your post about how they operate.

[Carrieyazel]

24. That's one of the best assessments I've ever read.

But something tells me these tired, shopworn tactics will not work for Hillary this time. She's been around too long, and the electorate isn't going to let these tricks go without any notice. It's already happening.