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Herman Munster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:42 PM
Original message
Hillary hits Obama on health care - Obama's plan flunks the test
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/11/28/48529...

In a speech from Iowa today, Clinton went after Obama on the issue of health care. "You know, among the Democrats, all of us except Senator Obama have universal health care that have put fourth a plan. Senator Richardson, Senator Edwards, Senator Dodd -- we've put fourth universal healthcare plans because we know if we don't cover everybody, we're going to leave millions and millions of people out. It's a substantive and important difference, because if you don't start with the goal of covering every American, you will never get there."

She added, "And I'm proud that Senator Edwards agrees with me, Senator Dodd agrees with me, Governor Richardson agrees with me. Congressman Kucinich has a different approach, but he gets everyone covered to have universal health care. If we don't have universal health care, then we will be betraying the Democratic Party's principles. And it's important that those who will caucus on January 3rd understand this difference. Senator Obama's plan does not, and cannot, cover all Americans. He has called his plan universal, then he called it 'virtually universal,' but it is not either. And when it comes to truth in labeling, it simply flunks the test."

And: "He's been saying there's no difference between our plans. But his plan would leave at least 15 million Americans uninsured, including more than 100,000 people right here in Iowa. So why don't we just say everybody against the wall, you don't get insurance. We're very sorry, but we're just not going to have a plan that covers you."


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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. pot, meet kettle-- Clinton's "plan" is nothing more than a windfall...
...for the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Single payer universal health coverage is the only real solution to the health care problems in America.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks... Insurance should be a right, not a duty...
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Obama disagrees. He thinks insurance is optional
Obama does nothing for the uninsured
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Clinton disagrees too, she thinks it is a duty...
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. It is a civic duty IMO
The uninsured increase the cost of medical for us all
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. OK, so, those who are not insured are reckless? Live in the real world.
:puke:

In every other democracy, healthcare is a right that is paid by taxes.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. No, our govt is reckless
Just one more thing you've gotten wrong. Can't you get anything right?
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. Obama thinks insurance is optional? - wrong! he knows the people can't afford Ins.
you must stay current with the news...
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. Yes, his plan makes insuring oneself optional
And it has no garauntees of affordability
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Obama isn't supporting single payer. He is supporting the insurance companies
just as much as any of the other candidates (Ron Paul supporter, Kucinich excepted) Obama also supports mandates, while criticizing other plans for having mandates. The only difference is that Obama doesn't support UNIVERSAL Health Care. Obama thinks it's OK if millions go uninsured
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I understand that....
Hence my comment: "pot, meet kettle," i.e. they are fundamentally the same, at least from the perspective of a rational universal health care plan as practiced by most first world democracies.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. Wrong again
Obama's plan is NOT univeral. Clinton's is
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
69. Clinton's "plan" is universal compulsory insurance-- NOT real universal...
...health care. Sorry-- Clinton and Obama are BOTH wrong on this issue as far as I'm concerned. Way wrong.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. That's just silly
If it covers everyone (and Hillary's plan does) then it's universal.

You sound like the "they're not REAL Christians" crowd.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. ok, it's universal compulsory insurance....
Sure, it's universal-- but it's still a bad plan for Americans and a potential trip to the profit trough of unimaginable proportions for insurance companies. America needs single payer universal health care.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. It's universal, that's a fact. whether it's bad is just an opinion
I agree we need single payer, but as one of the uninsured, I can safely say I can't afford to wait for the perfect plan. I seriously cannot afford it.
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
83. Yes, indeed Edwards and Kucinich are the only ones that have a
valid plan.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #83
98. Edwards plan has nothing in common with Kucinich's HR 676
Edwards own website details wage garnishments, collection agencies, etc., as forced payment for policies people can't afford to buy.

Kucinich is the ONLY candidate advocating true universal single payer (i.e., Medicare for ALL )
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hillary must be a trend-setter having flunked the test herself in the 1990s.
With the lion's share of healthcare and pharmaceutical lobbying $$$ tucked in her pocket, it is fascinating that people actually believe her plan will be anything more than crumbs that fall from the lobbyists' table.

Kucinich has the right idea about healthcare.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
67. "Its all Clinton's fault!" My god, I am getting sick of that mantra
The republican senate attacked her viciously and she received no help from the dems. She worked so hard and the plan was great--but the republicans refused to give ANYTHING to make anything the Clintons did work. From day one they were attacked.

The failed healthcare system is our fault for allowing the neo-cons to take over America.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #67
85. Oh, so you are 'sick of this mantra,' are you?
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 10:27 PM by AtomicKitten
Oh, dear. :eyes:

The point is that it's only fair that we spread the wealth when it comes to flinging around nasty epithets, in this case "failure," unless, of course, you are okay with that being applied to other candidates and are verklempt beyond belief when pointed back at yours, in which case you're on your own.

I'm not really interested in the petty squabbling around here as much as I am a little parity when it comes to what is considered acceptable and what is not. Fairness goes both ways.

edited for snark
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #85
88. Amazing.
the 90's are being re-written. So rather than learning from them, we deny and blame. And why? Because if may benefit your choice for a candidate in the short term. But in doing so: the truth is gone, and we are doomed to allow a repeat of the disaster.

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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #88
97. Sen Byrd is responsible for the health care failure of 1993
but no one really cares about who is really responsible. They'd rather blame Clinton than tell the truth
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hillary's plan flunks the American poor, working poor, and middle class test
Her plan is just as bad. In fact, it's WORSE than what we have now. Sure, it will cover everybody...because you HAVE to carry insurance. What a boon for these wonderful, giving, altruistic corporations, eh?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Clinton's plan insures, the poor, and subsidizes the middle class
while forcing insurers to lower their premiums, provide coverage at least as good as Congress gets, and forces insurance companies to provide coverage to anyone regardless of prior conditions
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Subsidizes the middle class through a "tax dedcution".
Oh yeah, that'll do it for sure! I can't wait. $2500 or whatever it is so that I can buy thousands of dollars worth of insurance for the year. What a joke.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. You don't even know what you're talking about
"$2500 or whatever it is "

Obviously you don't know what it is. But you'll blather on about the issue anyway
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
54. wrong post. self delete.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 06:58 PM by bunnies
oops
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
82. That's because she never defines it. How could any of us know?
Here's a link to her page which I've not visited since the last time I asked someone to point me to the information that would help me understand her plan. Since you like to accuse me of knowing nothing, I thought I'd show you why.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan /

She doesn't say. Insurance costs most people about $1000/mo, more or less, depending on how much is subsidized by their employers. Lots of people I've talked to on this board pay $20K a year or have been quoted that price and decided against coverage.

Are they going to offer a tax deduction of $12K a year? I doubt it. Even if they did, the average American struggling with life's difficulties will get that money after they file their taxes and have to use it on something else (the roof is leaking, the car died again, the furnace is kaput).

What exactly is affordable? What does Congress pay for their insurance or, the better question, what do we pay? They pay nothing so it may seem like a great plan to them. If we could pay nothing too, I'd be all for it. But you know that won't happen.
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Herman Munster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Have you even read her plan?
Stop talking out of your ass and read her plan. She expands medicare to all and opens the congressional plan to everyone. This is the only feasible way to single-payer as it will eventually phase out insurance companies if they can't compete on price with the government.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/am...
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Of course AC hasn't read the plan.
AC doesn't even know how much the tax credits are worth or how much the premiums will be.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
73. that is propaganda at best-- Clinton's plan does NOT expand medicare...
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 08:50 PM by mike_c
...to all, as you suggest. It proposes a "public plan option similar to Medicare," for which subscribers will pay just like any other insurance-- and no doubt that plan will in fact be administered for the profit of some insurance company, or a consortium of them.

America needs single payer universal health care like most other first world democracies boast, not more ways for the insurance companies and other health care parasites to make enormous profits. Clinton's "plan" might better be called the Health Insurance Industry Windfall Plan.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hillary's past healthcare failure is her version of "being more experienced"...
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Obama's past UNIVERSAL healthcare plan is non-existent
as is his current UNIVERSAL health plan

Why does Obama oppose UNIVERSAL health care?
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
66. Neither Clinton nor Obama have a health CARE plan
They're both pushing health INSURANCE.

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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. As one of the uninsured, I can safely say "insurance = care" in most cases
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. It all depends on what kinds of deductibles and copays the policy has
My insurance is great - as long as all I need is preventative care. I gather from what friends and family have to say, that's true of their policies as well.

Then there's the little games they play with wording. According to my policy all preventative care (mammograms, pap smears, etc) are covered 100%. After my last pap smear, I got a bill for $20.00 from my clinic... As it turns out, the pap smear is 100% covered but the office visit has a $20.00 copay (going to $25.00 next year). I haven't figured out how anyone can have one of these tests without showing up at the doctor's office.

I'm sure they get even more clever when applying the policy terms to big ticket treatments.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Read Clintons plan
It limits things like co pays and deductibles to a percentage of income, and if your private plan has copays, etc that are too high, you can buy into the federal pgm.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Does it specify what the percentage of income is?
I was also under the impression that you won't be able to buy into a federal program unless you meet certain income requirements and, in my past life as a social worker, the one thing I learned is that government expectations of what a person can afford has no relation to reality. Most programs seem to think people are being paid in today's dollars, but everything costs what it did in 1950.

Also, having once worked for a large for profit insurer, I cannot support any program that keeps the those companies involved. They exist to collect money, not pay it out and they will always find ways not to pay - even if it's stalling you until you give up or die.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. .
I don't believe it specifies the %. Anyone who can pay the premium can buy the fed coverage.

I do believe that the concerns about what is affordable are valid ones, but I am happy to have these matters determined politically. There will be much pressure on making sure that % is truly affordable. If it's not, the plan will have no chance of passing.

As far keeping the insurers, I also prefer single payer, but being uninsured I do not have the luxury of being too fussy about how the bills are paid. At least the bills will get paid. Right now, my bills are not being paid.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Explain to me how having no money to buy food, clothing, and housing
will allow someone to "buy into" ANY program for health insurance? Given the choice between feeding my family that week and paying the rent, I'd probably neglect to pay my insurance premium if no one was sick at that time. It doesn't matter if the co-pays, etc are limited to a percentage of income. A percentage of "not much money" is still too much. It's the same idea as flat tax income taxation. It's basically a regressive tax. It hurts the poor and middle class who are one catastrophe away from financial ruin.

This is a huge boon to the insurance companies.

For-profit health care is a horrible pox on the American people.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Poor people will receive Medicare and pay no premium
Ive already said this.

Poor people - pay nothing

middle class - pay premiums, copays, deductibles, etc that are limited to a % of income

Why is that so hard to understand?
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. I don't see from her website how she defines "poor"
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 10:13 PM by AllyCat
I'd love to know how that is and at what point someone is "poor". If one was middle class and had a financial disaster, would one suddenly be "poor" and get medicare or would you just get denied all the benefits of citizenship until you could cough up the dough?

Nor does she even say on the website issue page how poor people would even have access to care. It just talks about the middle class.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. It's not as if you are concerned for the uninsured
In another thread, you made it clear that your objections to private insurance are due to how it inconveniences you (red tape, copays, etc) and not because it won't provide insurance for the poor
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. And you did not read my post. I mean really read it.
Yeah, it's an inconvenience for me, but at least I have something. What I really object to is the folks that have NOTHING. And that is what they will get from mandated "health insurance". Absolutely nothing. This country needs to have single-payer universal coverage. The plan you like and the plan I like are both gov't mandates. It's just a matter of difference in getting there.

I think everyone should get health care, not coverage. You think everyone should have coverage as a means to getting health care. We will have to differ on that. We both care about the poor, but differ on the way to obtain it.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. You have no credibility
If you cared about the people who had no insurance you would support any plan that gave them insurance. But you don't.

And we differ on more than just how to obtain health care. You oppose every effort except the one that will reduce your inconveniences. All you care about is how it affects you. You oppose plans that achieve what you say you want to achieve. How can you be believed?
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #92
102. Done talking to you about this.
Ad hominems just show you for what you are.
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why did Hillary not try to bring us healthare in the second term? nm
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Why did you not try to defend Obama's miserable health plan?
Is it because all you can do is attack Clinton?
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. Have you bothered to notice that the mandate is failing miserably
in Massachusetts? You think it will miraculously work differently for the country? At least with Obama Im not being forced to buy some shit plan that I cant afford.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. You are obviously oblivious
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 06:05 PM by cuke
to the difference betweens the repuke Mitt's plan and the plans the democrats are offering

I asked you yesterday and you fled, so I'll ask again - Does Mitt's plan require insurers to cover EVERYBODY regardless of prior conditions? Does Mitt's plan limit premiums to a % of one's income? Does Mitt's plan prohibit large increases in premiums? Does Mitt's plan make insurance portable?

Hillary's does all that and more, and you think they're the same plan. Very shallow thinking
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. enlighten me.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 06:07 PM by bunnies
adding: and while youre at it, enlighten yourself...

In ways, Clinton healthcare plan resembles Romney's Mass. solution

By Lisa Wangsness, Globe Staff | September 18, 2007

Key elements of Hillary Clinton's healthcare proposal are strikingly similar to the tenets of the health overhaul that Mitt Romney signed into law in Massachusetts last year. But you would never guess it from the broadsides he hurled yesterday against what he called "Hillarycare 2.0" and described as "a European-style socialized medicine plan."

(snip)

But the central premise of Clinton's plan - an "individual mandate" requiring that every American have health insurance - is precisely what Romney proposed in the Bay State, in what was seen as a bold approach to attaining universal coverage. The idea became a pillar of the law, which he signed in April 2006.

Clinton's plan and the Massachusetts law also share a guiding principle: Build on the existing employer-based private healthcare system, instead of replacing it with a government-run system.

read on: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/09/18/i...
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I just did
but obviously it didn't take, just as it didn't take when I posted the same questions yesterday.

You ducked the questions today just as you ducked them yesterday
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. what questions? when did I duck? You lost me cuke. nt
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. These questions
I asked you yesterday and you fled, so I'll ask again - Does Mitt's plan require insurers to cover EVERYBODY regardless of prior conditions? Does Mitt's plan limit premiums to a % of one's income? Does Mitt's plan prohibit large increases in premiums? Does Mitt's plan make insurance portable?


(and you ducked it yesterday when you made the same false claims about Mitt's pgm)
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. *crickets* from bunny
again
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Sorry cuke... I was eating dinner.
Id have to reacquaint myself with Mitts plant to answer your specifics. But it doesnt change the fact that you cant force people to buy something they cant afford. I really dont care how much of my income the govt thinks I can spend on health care... the fact remains that they dont know how much my bills are.

Also.. you and I did not have this discussion yesterday. I still have no clue what you're referring to.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. LOL!! I knew you didn't know what you were talking about
You have no idea how the plans differ. You were just blowing hot air, and you got caught

And Hillary's plan limits premiums to an affordable % of income, so people will be able to afford it. Poor people will get free coverage, ANOTHER difference with Mitts that you don't know about.

You've been exposed as a fraud who talks as if you know the facts when the truth is you wouldn't recognize a fact if it smacked you in the fact. And now you want to continue to pretend you know anything about the issue, and in doing so, continue to state falsehoods as if they wer fact
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Listen to what Im saying.
What the hell gives Hillary Clinton the right to tell ME whats affordable for ME?! The bottom line is that mandates DO NOT work.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. You are entitled your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts
Whether something is affordable or not is not something that is subject to opinion. Either it is affordable or it is not.

And single payer is mandate and single payer works. You are wrong again. You're batting 1.000
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Of course its subject to my opinion....
when they're talking about MY income. Do they know how much my rent is? Will that be factored in to whatever extra money they think I have? No.

And as for single payer... I go to the Doctor, the Gov't pays... thats not exactly a "mandate".
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. No it's not. Affordability is an objective measure
not a subjective one.

"Do they know how much my rent is?"

What you spend on rent is your business. If you spend so much on rent that you can't afford insurance, then you better find an affordable rental and stop blowing your money on a luxury apt you can't afford.

Statistics concerning affordability and income take housing costs into account. If you are spending more than average, that is your choice and not a valid excuse for neglecting your civic duty to get health insurance

As for single payer, you are mandated to pay taxes on your income to pay for single payer, regardless if you go to a doctor or not. You have no choice about not paying taxes. It is a mandate
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. No. its not my choice.
I dont control the rent in my area. Should I move to a different state? Who would pay those costs?

And yes., I do have a choice about paying taxes. Mandate or no mandate. You'd be kidding yourself to think otherwise.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Yes, it is your choice
And no, you have no choice about paying taxes. Try again
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #65
89. I dont know what world you live in cuke...
but in mine we have a little thing called free will. We have prisons full of people who chose to defy all sorts of "mandates". Is car insurance required in your state cuke? Is there such thing as uninsured motorist coverage? Hmmm.. now why do you suppose that is? No one goes against mandates. Right?

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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. If you don't pay your taxes, you won't have to worry about rent
You don't get charged rent for your prison cell
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. self delete
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 06:13 PM by cuke
posted in wrong place
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. good point
It seems healthcare is a sort of dog-and-pony-show issue for Democrats, one that they roll out every election but don't do a damn thing about. I truthfully have no expectations that she will effect healthcare for all Americans. Been there, done that, and she folded her tent and went home. I want someone that at least gives me a modicum of hope that healthcare for all Americans can and will come into fruition.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:58 PM
Original message
Hillary has done a lot about health care. You must be referring to Obama
who has done little

Hillary convinced Bill to support SCHIP, which has provided coverage to millions of children. Hillary has also fought to expand Medicaid coverage in NYS. She has gotten legislation to help foster children, to insure the safety of prescription drugs given to children, and to increase funding for the Ryan White Care Act. She has also proposed and authored a long list of legislation designed to help with the health care crisis
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Well SCHIP was a big step.
But I agree that we don't get enough when it comes to health care reform. Even the plans offered now (except Kucinich) aren't new models. Just expansions on what has had mixed results.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. She was instrumental in the creation of SCHIP in Bill's 2nd term.
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
99. No she wasn't!
It was Ted Kennedy who was instrumental in the creation of SCHIP.

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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. hIllary is spreading phony information again. That number of uninsured
people (15 million nation wide, 100,000 in Iowa) sounds really solid. In fact, it is someone's estimate of the number of healthy young people who will opt to go without insurance even though Obama's plan guarantees access to low cost plans and assistance for the poor and near poor.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Which defeats the purpose of regular preventative care.
Which a person with insurance or a means of low cost health care is more likely to do.

The focus on preventative care is big in all of the Democrats' health care plans. Obama included.

Promoting Prevention and Strengthening Public Health

Obama's emphasis on reducing waste and inefficiencies and increasing spending on prevention appealed to Dr. George Weiner, director of the Holden Comprehensive Cancer Center at UI. The cost of providing health care to those without insurance often is more expensive than prevention would have been, he said. "I'm excited about his plan and others," Weiner said. "The time is right for universal health care."

-Cedar Rapids Gazette, 5/29/07

Obama believes that protecting and promoting health and wellness in this nation is a shared responsibility among individuals and families, school systems, employers, the medical and public health workforce, and federal and state and local governments. Each must do their part, as well as collaborate with one another, to create the conditions and opportunities that will allow and encourage Americans to adopt healthy lifestyles.

1. Employers. An increasing number of employers are offering worksite health promotion programs and many employers choose insurance plans that cover preventive services for their employees. Obama believes that worksite interventions hold tremendous potential to influence health and will expand and reward these efforts.

2. School Systems. Obama will work with schools to create more healthful environments for children. He will work to get junk food out of vending machines in schools and improve nutritional content of lunches through financial incentives, increase grant support for physical education, expand federal reimbursement for school-based health services, and provide grants for health educational programs for students.

3. Workforce. Obama will expand funding - including loan repayment, adequate reimbursement, grants for training curricula, and infrastructure support to improve working conditions - to ensure a strong workforce that will champion prevention and public health activities.

4. Individuals and Families. The way Americans live, eat, work, and play have real implications for their health and wellness. The Obama health plan will require coverage of essential clinical preventive services such as cancer screenings and smoking cessation programs in all federally supported health plans including Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP and the new public plan. In addition, Obama will increase funding to expand community based preventive interventions to help Americans make better choices that can help ward off chronic and preventable diseases and improve their health.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Obama undermines his goals but not supporting UNIVERSAL coverage
without UNIVERSAL coverage, cost cutting efforts will be undermined by the uninsured.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. To me they all undermine their goals by not supporting single payer (nt)
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. I disagree
While single payer is my preference, I think the other UNIVERSAL plans will lead to single payer when private insurers are forced to compete with a govt subsidized pgm (the one Congress gets) while having to provide coverage to anyone regardless of prior conditions, etc.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. While I acknowledge the bridgeheads some of the plans establish.
And I follow the political reasoning for doing so incrementally....

This is one of the few issues I do not think of as political. Rather to me it has become a necessity.

"Healthcare for all" should be as universal a declaration by candidates as I will defend this country and God Bless America.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Well, I won't even try to dissuade you from your position
We need people who are willing to fight for single payer. You are obviously willing. Far be it for me to talk you out of that
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. My position on this has been one of evolution and study.
3 years ago I would have been touting the non single payer plans offered as the best thing possible.

But unfortunately life has a way of directly showing you consequences for various actions and I have seen too many chronically ill people who I care about make decisions they should not have to.

I am not an all or nothing person. But I will keep saying that I want single payer. I will keep saying single payer is the way to go. I will keep taking the time to explain its benefits and quash the boogie men aligned against it.

Someday....you will to :hi:
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I'm sure you are right
but right now, I'm in the position where I'll take what I can get. I understand what you're saying but I need health insurance yesterday, and I don't care how it's funded (yet)

peace
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
30. Who has the best plan?
Paul Krugman with some interesting thoughts:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/21/opinion/21krugman.htm...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. We will lose on mandated health care
The End.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
39. Hillary never mentions who exactly are these 15 million? would it be the Rich & Famous or
the destitute and poor? does anyone know?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
40. How is Hillary going to enforce the cornerstone of her plan -- the mandate?
We still haven't gotten a straight answer from her about that, which shows a lack of detail that makes her plan makes her plan no more than a PR exercise
designed to pander to the Democratic base.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. When will Obama support UNIVERSAL Health care?
We still haven't gotten a straight answer from Obama about that, which shos a lack of detail that makes his shifting positions no more than a PR exercise designed to pander to the repuke base
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. But she has "a plan"...
Ewwww...

So what that it's yet another phony, impractical promise served up for electoral consumption.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. How does Obama plan to enforce his plans mandates?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. *crickets*
again
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
51. so the big difference and leadership that Hillary is promoting is
Health care. If elected a strip downed version will be passed that will likely leave some uninsured. Been down this path before and nothing got done, and this is what is being promoted as the cornerstone of Hillary's campaign. Sorry but this is a horrible idea. (not the Health care plan but the decision to highlight it)

When you think of Hillary and Health care you do not think of success.



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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. No
everything you just said was wrong
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. O.K.
Did you go to the George W. Bush school of persuasion?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. No, did you?
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #62
87. cute dog
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
64. Mandated insurance policies recommended by insurance companies is a disaster
If you think that forcing people to have health insurance and doing absolutely nothing to stop the gross negligence that health care insurance causes is the solution, then you are obviously not interested in really getting to the heart of the problem.

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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. Obama's plan has mandates
Obama opposes mandates, except when he support mandates
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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
68. I read a pretty decent report on all candidates health care plans
which gave Kucinich a 100, Clinton and Edwards both a 92, Obama an 87 and no puke got above a 38. Some actually had zeros.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #68
95. Single payer is the way to go and many see Clinton and Edwards' respective plans as a bridge head.
Obama is damn close.
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ripple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
84. Is Hillary giving tests now?
Hillary and Edwards' plans will haunt our party in the GE, if either of them are the nominee. FORCING people to purchase health insurance will only FORCE people not to vote for the candidate proposing such a thing. Guaranteed. People hate government mandates, even if they are in their own best interest.

Kucinich has the best position on health care, BTW. Unfortunately, his plan won't fly in the GE any more than Hillary or Edwards' will.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #84
94. Kucinich will FORCE everyone to buy govt insurance
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #94
100. HR 676 does not FORCE people to buy anything..
it forces the government to care for the health of its people. Good grief.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
96. Both their plans suck
In order to get any real change we need to dismantle the insurance racket altogether.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
101. The "test"???
:rofl:

She's become a joke!
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