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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:55 AM
Original message
Before this goes any further, let me tender my apology
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 11:08 AM by cali
for having used the phrase "Great white progressive hope) in reference to John Edwards. It was offensive terminology, and not apt as regards the attitudes most of his supporters have. I do not believe that the vast majority of his supporters here, or anywhere else support him for any reason other that they believe he is the best candidate for the presidency. That there are people that have expressed that they think he's more electable because of his race/gender isn't really germane anyway.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I know you're supporting him because you believe in him.

cali
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. "Great white hope" is a pretty common expression--not a big deal.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. it's evidently a big deal to a lot of folks here
and really it wasn't a good choice of words when I was trying to make a point about why I don't support Edwards.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Not the best choice of words, but don't feel too bad about it.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. No, it is a big deal because it implies his supporters are basing
their support solely upon his being white, not his qualities of leadership.

Flip the remark, apply it to Obama, and it is easy to see just how offensive it is.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:11 AM
Original message
Well, I didn't get that the OP was trying to imply that--it was just a poorly
chosen but common expression, to me. Your offense-taking may vary.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
39. Do you know where that 'common expression' came from?
1912, Jack Johnson became the first black heavyweight champion, and whites clamored for a "great white hope" who could kick his ass for having the affronty to not only take down all his white challangers but also date white women. 1912, a time when the KKK marched 5 million strong through Washington DC.

Great White Hope is, and always has been, a racist statement.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Yes, but it's been watered down by common use--and most
who use it are doing so in a sardonic/humorous way, not in a racist way--that's the spirit in which I took the OP.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. yes, that's how I was using it. I'm still sorry for offending
people, but I just googled it. It's widely used, and clearly not often as a racist comment. Furthermore, it seems to be widely used by African-Americans in the context of sports talk, in a sardonic manner.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I specified that SOME
of his supporters had said that he was more electable because of gender/race.

And it wasn't flipped, and sorry, white males have not suffered the institutional racism that blacks have, nor have they suffered the sexism women have had to contend with. Still, I'm sorry I used it. If you can't accept the apology, that's your thing.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
59. No apology needed. I was merely responding to the post that
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 12:47 PM by Benhurst
it was no big deal. And I don't think you meant it to be. But Obama supporters would certainly be offended if it were implied they were for him because he was the Great Black Hope. Unfortunately both camps probably have individuals who do base their support on race; but it is my hope their numbers are small.
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. John Edwards
You said that about him?
:shrug: :shrug:
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. He's more electable because he won in a very red state.
Clinton...Blue State
Obama...Blue State

But then, someone as smart as you knew that, right?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. look I don't run around saying I'm so smart
so don't throw that at me. But while we're at it, the Kerry Edwards ticket lost in his home state, his home district of Raleigh and his home town of Robbens. That's certainly not all to be laid at his feet, but part of the reason that Kerry had him on the ticket was in the hopes of doing better in certain red states- including NC. Also, Edwards is trailing badly in every state outside Iowa, and he started the game with a very recognizable name- not as recognizable as Clinton but more so than Obama.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Whatever Cali,
You should still know better than to use racially charged terms.

Obama started running for President the day he took his seat in the Senate. (That's what the people I know from Il tell me.) And Hillary started running sometime in 92.

I'm not here to answer for the 04 election. I'm here to learn, grow, and yes, support my pick. I just wonder why you never answer the hard questions, but you have no problem asking them.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Really? you're here to learn?
Where I come from when someone offends you and offers an apology, the gracious thing to do is accept it. What did you do? You came on a thread where I humbly offered my apologies to shit on me.

Think about that. Think about learning something.

Furthermore, there is no question thrown at me that I don't answer.
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. This thread was not intended as an apology and you know it
for someone so well versed in the art of rational thinking, you sure do dabble in the reverse psychologies. And Jesus Christ, someone having a problem with what you says means they are taking a "Shit on you"? Talk about playing the victim, Cali. Where I come from, an apology is "tendered" without the need to defend one's self. You are not truly sorry. As evidence...

1. Your apology was not sans a swipe at Edwards.
2. You took every opportunity to attack responses (including the jaw-dropping assertion that Edwards had better name recognition than Clinton at the beginning of the race).


You thought you had something with the Great White Hope thing, and you ran with it. Classic flamebait.

Sad.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. It was an apology. You are reading into it what wasn't there.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 11:33 AM by cali
I'm not playing the victim. I didn't mean to offend anyone. It was a poor choice of words.

And why are you simply making stuff up out of whole cloth? That's a very interesting question. I said Edwards had good name recognition at the start of the race, though not as good as Clinton's.

Here's the quote from about Edwards' name recognition v Clinton's name recognition:

"..he started the game with a very recognizable name- not as recognizable as Clinton but more so than Obama."

You claim that I said he had greater name recognition than Clinton. That is not what I said. I proved it is not what I said. Either you read it wrong, or you're flat out twisting what I said and making it unrecognizable. If it's the latter, know what that makes you? That's right. That's exactly what it makes you.
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. I either misread it, or you edited it. Either way my overall point
is that this thread is flamebait. And I took it.

Well played, Cali.

But for fun, anyways, lets dissect your apology:

"I'm sorry I said Edwards was the Great White Hope" --> Good so far.

"That there are people that have expressed that they think he's more electable because of his race/gender isn't really germane anyway" ---> backhanded swipe at Edwards supporters. Who are those people, certainly not you since you forthrightly apologized a few moments earlier, and you would be above such nonsense. You are repeating the meme as if you had nothing to do with it... it's all on Edwards supporters now.

Sure it's not germane, but you repeat it as if it is a fact, and you are above it.

If you had left that comment out, and then not proceeded to throw in the dramatics, you might have had me... but I doubt it.

For fun, I'm thinking of starting my own thread... "I'm sorry, in Cali's thread I implied that Hillary Clinton was acting like a man in order to beat all those boys. Sure there are those that think she is acting more hawkish because she is a woman, but I did not mean to imply that, and it is not germane anyways. I'm sorry -- I'm sure you are only supporting her because you think she is the best candidate"

You know what would happen.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. you are exactly what I implied you are
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 12:05 PM by cali
and bald faced as well. Go ahead, start a thread calling me out. See where that gets you.

I'm not supporting Clinton. I've said so hundreds of times. I've explained precisely why I can't vote for anyone who voted for the IWR and she's compounded that by voting for K/L. But what can one expect from someone who has no shame whatsofucking ever? You tell one ___ after another.

I'm still sorry I used that turn of phrase, but hey I still think you should go ____ yourself.

and yeah, throw shit at me, cupcake, you get it back tenfold. Or more.

edited to add: You know fucking well that I didn't edit that other post as there no bright red editing notice in it. That make you even more contemptible. You deserve all the shit you threw my way- and I'll give it to you.
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. mk.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 12:33 PM by dave29
:)

and for the record... two more items.

1) There is an edit on your original post (which is where I thought I read it).
2) I never said you were supporting Hillary. You made that logical leap all by your lonesome.

edit to add: I'm off to go ____ myself now (where have I heard that particular phraseology before? -- oh yeah, Dick Cheney on the floor of the Senate. But not while it was in session, so it does not matter :P )
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #16
32. From what I saw, it WAS intended as an apology...
I have nothing good to say about Edwards, but I would vote for him over any Repub. And your 2nd assertion was wrong. Cali never asserted that Edwards had better name recognition than Clinton...just the opposite as a matter of fact: "...he started the game with a very recognizable name- not as recognizable as Clinton but more so than Obama."
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. You're kidding right?
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 11:31 AM by asdjrocky
"You came on a thread where I humbly offered my apologies to shit on me."

Your words. Wow. You know I've had two teenage daughters. I recognize drama, I've been a performer for years. But I don't think I've every seen anyone quite as good as you.

Your posts, and you, are now a jokes to me. I'll show it to my friends and we'll all have a good laugh.

Have a nice day.

Meet the new boss...

...same as the old boss.

Oh, and I accept your heartfelt apology.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. you just showed exactly what you are
but I already knew what substance you're full of.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Seriously,
You're cracking me up.

Have a bunny,
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. sorry you have such a paucity of entertainment in your
life. How sad. and thanks for the cute bunny. I only wish you were amusing- or said anything beyond the banal, even if unintentionally.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Awwwww....
You ARE a sweetie!

Have two bunnies,
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. sorry, bunnies breed. one will do me.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 11:56 AM by cali
and forgive me for bowing out of this delightful little exchange, but your repartee isn't exactly sparkling. If only you could have come up with something just a tad bit more original than the tired little internet bunny. Can you spell hackneyed?

I knew that you could. You deserve a pat on the head.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Awww a pat on the head.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 12:11 PM by asdjrocky
I'm surprised you could reach from your place in the gutter.

Bye now.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. lol
:rofl:

I give as good as I get, sweetums.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I guess we both do then.
Sweetums.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. awww, how cute.
points for trying to keep up, cupcake.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Have a problem keeping your word?
"and forgive me for bowing out of this delightful little exchange, but your repartee isn't exactly sparkling. If only you could have come up with something just a tad bit more original than the tired little internet bunny. Can you spell hackneyed?"

Your words. Me? I can do this all day.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. nah, I hardly consider that a solemn pledge
and besides, I started having fun once you started... not having fun. You? I'm sure you can gimp along with banalities day in and day out. have at it, pumpkin.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Cool,
I have to go to the office for a while, but of course I'll be on line there.

Feel free to keep it going, honey, I'm having fun.

It's easy to be against something, or someone, the question is, who, or what are you for?

I'd really like to have a conversation here baby doll, feel free to shoot back with whatever ya got.

I'll be back in 10 min.

And seriously, maybe your more of a lizard type,
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Except that they didn't run very many ads in red states
I've heard they only ran one ad in his home state. Edwards takes more of the Dean approach, all 50 states are important.

And you know why he is trailing, come on...... He is hardly ever in the news except a big deal was made about his haircut. Even his wife having cancer was only on a few days. But you can't go a day without hearing about Clinton or Obama. Yeah, if had as much free publicity as those two, he would be much higher in the polls. Oh, and let's not forget about all the money they've spent too. For the amount of money Edwards has spent, he is doing remarkably well.

zalinda
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. That's true. They didn't focus on red states. And I agree that
a lot of the reason Edwards doesn't get as much media attention is because the media is framing it about Clinton/Obama. I do understand however, that he gets lots of media attention in Iowa, and if he does well there, he'll certainly get more.
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. No worries, all the candidates are acting like men anyways.
:P
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. lol
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. I hope your apology is accepted
because I know you'd never use it in a purposely racist way.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. It either is or it isn't
I can't control that. Thanks. Apologizing publically is never easy.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
15. Why are you apologizing? This is totally the kind of trash talk that
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 11:20 AM by acmavm
one would expect from you, inferring Edward's supporters are mysoginistic or racist.

I just consider the source.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. as you will
you'll believe what you want to believe, even though it's demonstrably untrue- I've never called any candidate a name, or called their supporters names. I made a mistake. I apologized for it.

You want to believe something about me that's not true. That's not something I can do anything about. Nor do I really wish to do anything more than I've done in the OP.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
18. One of the great difficulties of a message board is that the
nuances are rarely, if ever picked up as they are in spoken words.

We all tend to write things in short clips as if we were in a conversation ove coffee or a beer. When we write, all we see are letters typed into words, on a quick post. The time and energy required to "frame" our posts just aren't there.

We type out a post, put it up for all to see, then we await a response. 5/500 people at any given time can be reading the post and preparing a response, some just look and move on. It is a given though, that some will read it differently than what the poster intended, and find some slight, whether real, implied, completely irrelvevant.

Language is a colorful art, we lose a lot of the hues when we type out a message. I can write, "Great White Hope", Great White Hope, or great white hope...each could be taken in a different context, just depends who's reading and how the see the situation.

Such is the manner of message boards.



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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
22. Very gracious of you, Cali
I have not seen your post but I understand from where you came.

Certainly the media has had a preference for Edwards and one reason, I think, though perhaps subliminally, was that he can be perceived as more electable than a woman or a black (or a Hispanic).

However you are right that most who do actively support him do so for what he is offering.

I thought it strange, yesterday on CNN, when Jesse Jackson expressed his admiration for Edwards for highlighting poverty, yet for his support for Obama for the color of his skin.

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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
25. No problem, apology accepted as far as I am concerned. I don't
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 11:41 AM by EV_Ares
think you are the only one who has used some poorly chosen words before. In most cases we don't intend for them to mean what others interpret but that is the way of message boards and email. Regardless, thanks for the apology. I guess this puts you right up there with Biden now.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Thank you.
I appreciate your taking it as it was meant. I really do believe that you and the vast majority of JE's supporters here support him because they believe in him and his platform.
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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. I really do Cali, I believe in Kucinich as well. the two long shots, next
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 11:56 AM by EV_Ares
would be Obama and there is something about Biden I like. As you know, Hillary not so much.

I like Edwards story and I very much believe he has never forgot where he came from and he wants the best for his family, this country and those unable to fight their battles by themselves. Hopefully, they all feel that way. He has used his brilliance as an attorney to be able to do that and the money he has made from that he has used to further his causes for the good of others. Now, he has taken that further with the run for the presidency. He probably knows it is going to be difficult to win the nomination but he can get his message out there and he may be able to do some things with the democratic platform. Regardless, we do have good candidates and for me I guess this election is important because the next president and congress I believe will have a hand in someone going on the supreme court and we do not need another Roberts, Scalia or Thomas.

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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
29. OK, but it seems to me that many of the people you are..
apologizing to should be doing a fair amount of apologizing themselves.

Fat chance you'll see that any time soon.



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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. thanks.
but I did screw up. I know that some folks aren't ever going to apologize for their excesses, and I'm glad not to be in their number. There is a bit of irony here though, because many of them are Edwards supporters and they're big on his apologies.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
30. Now, if we can just get all of the people who have called Hillary a whore to apologize....
I see little wrong with your reference to Edwards. I've seen DU members indicate that the country won't elect Hillary or Obama because of her gender and his racial identity. Some of those people have indicated that Edwards is exactly what you described.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. not going to happen
You know, I've criticized Hillary a fair amount and the majority of her supporters do not go over the edge because of it. Interesting contrast.

I'm tempted to start a thread titled: Some Candidates Are More Equal Than Others.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. There's definitely a double standard. Or triple. Or more.
The tone and types of criticism "allowed" by DUers at large certainly varies by candidate.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
41. I appreciate your apology -
and hope that you are taking it to heart, because there is NO context in which "Great white hope" is not a racist comment, except possibly for snow-deprived ski slopes.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. thank you
and I just as sincerely hope that those few Edwards' supporters herewho do claim he's more electable do to gender/race, take it to heart that that in itself is racist. Whether on the ski slopes or anywhere else.
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
49. good job
you made a mistake, apologized, no let's move on.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
52. It's no wonder some posters have trouble accepting this "apology"...
How many threads trashing Edwards did you start today?
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. She wasn't apologizing for criticizing Edwards,
she was apologizing for using an offensive phrase. I don't think anyone can point to a post where cali's used racist or bigoted language before, so I don't see why this is so hard to accept. Well, that's my opinion FWIW.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. I started three threads; all of them with substantive and factual
information. But hey, look who I'm talking to: the chick who loooves Clinton but has no problem comparing her to bushco.

You bash in quite an ingenuous way, but surely you didn't think you could quite pull that off, did you?

I suggest you look at yourself hard in the mirror. Oh, and learn the difference between bashing and substantive criticism.

Don't want to accept my apology? No problem.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. The point of all those threads was to trash the candidate that bothers you...
The difference is I comment on both the good and bad points of each candidate. Your "substantive criticism" is just an excuse to start yet another negative thread.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. lol.
what self-deception. I don't support Edwards. I've posted threads saying why. I haven't compared him to bush- unlike lil ole you wrt Clinton. I have used links to reputable sources- again, unlike you. You want to see it as bashing, feel free, but you don't get a free ride with your "i really love Hillary, but she's exactly like bush" crap.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
58. I'm not an expert on this, but isn't Edwards white?
:shrug:
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