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Byronic Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:29 AM
Original message
Biden. Wow.
Yes, that is perhaps the poorest, least thought out headline for a post on DU for a while, but it sums up my feelings perfectly at the moment. I've just finished watching Joe Biden at an event in Iowa that was shown on C-Span today. I am unashamedly proud of him, and, he keeps impressing me more and more. Please indulge me a little....

His knowledge and sincerity on a whole host of subjects make me think he should be in a tier of his own. He again came out, bluntly and with no equivocation, for public financing of elections. He discussed the world situation with great skill and explained EXACTLY why he wanted to be president, and what he would do as soon as he was (he also admitted that he was "too arrogant" back in 1988 - but now firmly believes that he is the right man for the right time.) and his chat with the Vietnam veteran at the end was very moving.

There are times when we doubt our chosen candidate. We hear so much negativity from so many different quarters. These are usually only people defending and promoting their rival candidate. It is only natural, and yet, doubts can appear. Have I picked the right one this time? What about the polls, they say he is way back? What about the money? How can he compete against such overwhelming odds?

All that disappeared completely this evening upon watching Biden in Iowa. In the past I have supported great Democrats in the primaries: Gore, Tsongas, Kerry, but I have never been more certain about my candidate than I am right now.

I now live in England, and so to use British terminology to sum up my feelings at this juncture:

Sod the polls.

Sod the celebrity.

Sod the money.

Sod the odds.

Sod the negativity.

Joe Biden for President!

My candidate makes me very proud. I sincerely hope you all feel, or grow to feel, the same way about your candidate. For those still without one, may I humbly request that you give Joe one more look. You can catch the re-run of Biden in Iowa on C-Span at 7.30am. Even if you loathe Biden the discussion he had with the audience is very interesting and wide-ranging.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. Byronic. Wow.
You paint a perfect picture of Biden's impressive performance at the Town Hall Meeting. Beautifully done!

So MANY of us Biden supporters have said exactly the same thing about never having been so sure of a candidate as we are of Biden. I feel GOOD and RIGHT about my support of him.

That meeting with the Viet Nam Veteran was so moving. Don't forget - his 'speech' was finished. He'd thanked the people and was just doing the shaking hands thing. They'd removed his microphone -- I'm not even sure he realized that a couple of the cameras were trying to catch some last footage, or that the boom mic was over his head.

As I put it in another post, when Joe put his hand on the man's shoulder, leaned in and said "that's okay, man - take your time - I've got plenty of time" - it was like they were the only two people in the room. He was totally focused on what the man was telling him. I was absolutely humbled by the kindness, care and respect he showed that gentleman. And it wasn't for an audience. It was real.

The thing about Joe is, if he DOESN'T become President, having come to "know" him during this campaign, I feel as though I truly will have a friend in the Senate who cares, and who will continue to be fighting for us all. He's honestly a great man.

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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. not to open any sores but some DU'ers are questioning
his amendment voting such as the Bankruptcy Amendment, can we question him about this? and what was his reason to vote NAY on this. His town hall last nite was very genuine.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. I am convinced, for the good of this country, that we who
believe Biden would be best for the country should make ourselves be heard.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes. You should.
Absolutely stand up for your candidate and everyone of you turn out to vote for him.

I won't be with you as I am not a really forgiving person but you should do it.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. And that's valid and understandable. I don't believe you're 'unforgiving', though,,
there are just certain things that we individually find unforgivable. Biden's bankruptcy vote is one of those things that many people find inexcusable so you're not alone in this feeling as you know. There are a couple of actions of the other candidates which I find inexcusable, so I know how you feel.

That being said, the best to you and your candidate.


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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. do i remember correctly that delaware ...
...is the home of many credit card companies?
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Yes - it's their main industry, IIRC... n/t
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Bushwick Bill Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. Bingo bango. Credit card whore.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 08:54 PM by Bushwick Bill
Just sayin'. He would be a great Secretary of Defense or State.
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Think82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. I watched the C-Span thing and I, too, was wowed!
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
5. i've gained a lot of respect for biden. nt
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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. There are darn few politicians more skilled than Joe
The guy just sparkles.
Always strikes just the right tone.
Reads a room better than anyone.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yeah, he's certainly a politician. No statesman, though. And too corrupt to get my vote. /eom
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livvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. There is not a candidate running that is not a politician. n/t
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. elaborate?? please?
or do you just spew hate?
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
52. Elaborate please, on your allegations of corruption...n/t
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Deals Gap....
Tail of the dragon. Did you by chance watch Feasting on Asphalt 2? Oh, and pay no attention to the...well, you know...
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. errr...what's Ashphalt 2?...
And what's Feasting, while you're at it?!!!

mr liberty is the bike nut, I just ride with him! I loved Deal's Gap though, it is so beautiful up there. We're hoping to make the trip again in the spring; it's a day trip for us as we're in the NC foothills just a couple of hours away. It is a long day trip though - the day we had that picture taken we left at 5:45 AM and got home at 7:30 PM that evening.
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livvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. Nice post, and I agree.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 06:52 AM by livvy
I was holding out for Gore, but have pretty much given up, so I started looking very seriously at the candidates. There were some I immediately eliminated for a variety of reasons, but of the remaining choices, I kept coming back to one, Biden. I was pretty familiar with him from being a C-Span and Sunday morning news program fanatic, but I hadn't really looked at his position on the issues.

So I spent quite a bit of time recently going through his website, and those of my other top choices. Between what I learned through my reading and his responses in the recent debates, I found my candidate. I watched the event in Iowa, and was again impressed. Like you, I would suggest that others take a second look at him with an open mind, and a broader view.

There is no such thing as a perfect candidate, and I don't believe I will ever be in full agreement with any elected official on all the issues, but this isn't about me. This is about what I believe to be in the best interests of the country, and I believe if Biden were elected he would be the most effective and successful in restoring the country to where it was before this nightmare of an administration lied their way into power.

on edit: apparently it is too early for correct spelling.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. I agree with you....
it's not just my interest that I considered with my choice, but what's best for all of us.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. I only wish people had open minds.
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kevinmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
9. I am listening to him on C-SPAN Radio .......
and about 15 minutes ago donated to his campaign. The first one I have donated any money to in this election.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. That's interesting. There are several of us Binden supporters who have opened
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 03:55 PM by gateley
their wallets for the first time for a candidate during a campaign. Another refrain I repeatedly hear is "I've never been so certain of a candidate before...".


Thanks for the contribution - boy, does he need it! :hi:

EDIT: Because apparently words I'm thinking in my head don't automatically make it into my post. :eyes:
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Shanti Mama Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
11. Our last, best hope -- I keep saying it. He can beat anyone on
the other team. I donated for the first time this election.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. That's exactly what I have been saying:
Joe is our last, best hope!

Welcome to DU, Shanti Mama!! :hi:

Stop by & visit the Biden supporters group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
38. Hi, Shanti Mama (love your name - beautiful)
and welcome to DU! :hi:

Thank you for your support.
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Shanti Mama Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #38
65. Thanks. I aspire to live up to the name.
My kids might say otherwise ;-)
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. I Heard Some of the Speech, Too
It was very impressive.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
14. I watched the second half
of the meeting, and was impressed more than I expected, though I already liked Biden a lot. I do not have the time now to go into any details, but I think Biden is quite unique, at least among the current candidates, in his wide knowledge and understanding of issues (yes, foreign policy foremost, but not only), ability to connect to people, real empathy, etc., etc. And the way he talks is incredibly effective, if only more people would listen...
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
15. Actually I liked your headline
It really caught my attention.

Everyone has been raving about Biden on Cspan and I missed it because I was working. I have the rerun on TIVO though and can't wait to see.

This may be a unique opportunity in history to put a person in the White House who could possibly be a "great president". I really want to feel hopeful again.

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Steely_Dan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. There is something about Biden...
I hope that I am approaching this campaign in good faith and with total objectivity. I bot only think that Biden is the best hope for our country. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that we may be looking at one of the great presidents in our history. Don't let the media pick your candidate. The top tier (while good candidates) are being romanced by the media. They should be reporting the news and not creating it. I refuse to have them select our next president.

Joe Biden for President.
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I'm listening less and less to the MSM these days
Every day is yet another "Hillary and Obama" show and too much focus on non-issues. We hardly hear anything lately about Iraq or Pakistan. Even Bushco doesn't get as much attention as it should.

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Steely_Dan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
17. Kick
Kick
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
19. Kick!
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Ishoutandscream2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
20. I grow more and more impressed with Joe daily
Does he like to talk? Sure. Has he made some gaffes? Yes. But you can't deny that he is extremely knowledgeable, and one hell of a debater. I think America could learn to really like him.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yes, and unlike the
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 12:02 PM by 1corona4u
mindless gaffes of the current resident, they seem to pale in comparison.
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
22. I'm still undecided
But he has done a lot to reverse my negative feelings that I've had for him from quite a few years ago. I do feel that he should be given more time to articulate his positions. He did very well in the last debate IMHO.

And I liked your subject. :hi:
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. Your post got me thinking.... I realize I came into this campaign with negative
feelings toward Biden, too. Never expected I'd become such a strong supporter. Come to think of it, I had underlying negative feelings (not strong, but there nonetheless) regarding many of our candidates. Some have been proven true, others have been proven invalid.

Apparently I was more influenced by the media or 'conventional wisdom' than I realized. Don't like having to admit THAT to myself!
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
23. If Huckabee can catch up to Mitwit
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 11:56 AM by Mz Pip
I don't see why Biden can't do the same in the Democratic field.

Huckabee has little money but seems to be overtaking the gazillionaire Mitwit despite the constant Romney ads being run around the clock in IA.

Maybe people are just starting to pay attention.

Mz Pip
:dem:
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southerncrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. I think Huckabee's boost has come from the Religious Right
because he's also a Baptist preacher & pro-choice (appeal Roe v. Wade), yada, yada, yada. :eyes:
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. kick..
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
27. Kicking
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
28. There's really not much to attack Biden with
they bank on the bankruptcy bill, and it gets contested every time. His using Neil Kinnock's speech in 1988 gets contested as well. There's nothing else, and THAT is a very good sign.

You would think that with all his years in the Senate, and all the irrational primary rivalry on DU, they would find SOMETHING, but they just can't! I expect a lot of shit from the Republicans for any Dem candidate, but I have the most confidence in Biden for his ability to fight back.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
29. If we really want to serve our nation and our party right, we'll nominate Sen. Biden.
His nomination would mean a Democrat in the White House. This candidate would garner broad based appeal, more so than any other candidate. Now, if we can only get our own Party to wake up to this gift that stands before us.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. And, that is the task...
which, seems overwhelming right now, but we must press on.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Nice bumper sticker!
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. LOL...I just wished I would have put it down a bit...
but I do have another one....was saving it though...I need it in line of sight...for the cars behind me...
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. I have 2 on my bumper.
I wonder if anyone here in Mississippi knows who he is. They will.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. I might see if I can move it, without destroying it..
if not, I may just add the other one below it....fot the lower cars, LOL...but I can't bring myself to put it on the paint..
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
30. I love it when he talks, he talks in sentences, not sound bites.
He explains himself, you never wonder if he is saying things for political purposes.
Whether you agree with him or not, you always know where he stands.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
33. I really think people should NOT judge him on his past voting record
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. You're right...
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 03:50 PM by 1corona4u
but some people are very myopic in their views, and opinions. I'd rather have someone who's bashed for their bad votes, as opposed to someone who throws things out of the floor that have no chance of going anywhere, or someone who has never brought a good, critical bill to the floor, or someone who doesn't vote at all 80% of the time.

Maybe it's just that some of us know how to take the good with the bad, and not act like spoiled brats that mommy took the cookies away from. Read; we're all adults, those types, are not.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. interesting that you really think that.
i think we should judge him by his record. interesting, eh.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. But his voting record is impressive - so I hope they DO judge him on his past
voting record!

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murbley40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. kick
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kad7777 Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
42. Needless to say, I agree with you
and I will leave my standard response.


*********************************************

In these troubled and dire time we live in, Joe Biden, to me, encompasses all that we desperately need for our nation:

1) Intelligence
2) Experience in ALL phases of government
3) Strength
4) Respect from world leaders
5) Diplomacy
6) Command of issues
7) Solutions to problems that face our nation
8) Honesty
9) Integrity
10) Respect and trust from his peers
11) Respect and trust from the people who follow him
12) an EXPERT in foreign policy

Joe Biden certainly meets ALL of the criteria above.

I pray and hope every day that Mr. & Mrs. America, the people of Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina know in their hearts, that if we lose Joe Biden, we'll have lost one of the best Presidents our nation will ever have.

Please watch a video I produced to show my support for Senator Biden. If you support him, please send the link below to family and friends, and ask them to do the same.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OtGCaqOdIJ4


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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
46. If not for his 2002 IWR vote, Joe could be my candidate
So far I'm still sticking to my litmus test -- I will not vote for any candidate in the primary who voted for the IWR in October 2002.

This isn't a punitive litmus test. It is a test that Biden and most of the other Dem candidates failed when the stakes were astronomically high and they made what was likely the most consequential vote of their political careers.

It was obvious to me and pretty much everyone here at DU at the time that Bush was lying, that given the authority Bush would invade Iraq no matter what, and that it would be a terrible tragedy.

Does anybody have something from Biden in which he gives a satisfactory explanation for his vote?

Aside from that, I like Joe Biden A LOT. But THAT still remains a deal-breaker for me.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. That's too bad...
I guess Obama gets a pass, again, since he wasn't even in the senate at the time, and had no idea of what kind of information they based their votes on. Lucky Obama.

Oh, and just so you know, here is Joe's statement on his vote for the IWR;


"It was a mistake," Biden says. "I regret my vote. I regret not realizing how incompetent (the Bush administration) would be. The president did not level with us. And if I had known it, I would never have voted to give him that authority in the first place."



And Bush did misuse his authority, plain and simple. At least Joe admitted it, and voted no on the Kyle Lieberman bill.

And, here is a comment from him about the the Kyle Lieberman bill;


I voted against the amendment to designate Irans Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization because I dont trust this administration not to twist its words into a justification for war. Do you think this president abided by the spirit of the 1998 Iraqi Liberation Act? What did he use it for? He used it to justify taking down Saddam. Do you think he abided by the spirit of the legislation authorizing use of force in Iraq? He did not. He just leap-frogged over the conditions in the legislation to go to war. Do you think this President believes the Constitution places any limits on executive power? Now, you're telling me we can trust this President and this Vice President not to use legislation that declares roughly a third of the entire Iranian military a terrorist organization as a justification to use force against Iran?"

"Unlike Sen. Clinton, I dont trust this administration to follow the plain meaning of the law. And unlike Sen. Obama, I believe this was a vitally important vote not one to miss and then complain about later."


Yeah, Obama totally missed the vote. I guess it was just to damaging to his political aspirations. That's the way I see it.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. "It was a mistake," Biden says. "I regret my vote ...
It was a HUGE mistake, and Joe should have known better.

Admitting a mistake is something many politicians won't do, but it still doesn't negate the extremely poor judgement Joe and others showed at the time. There was more to it than underestimating the incompetence of the Bush administration. This "preemptive war" was just plain wrong on several levels, and any expert on foreign policy should have seen that Bush's rhetoric was contradicted by the known realities of Iraq.

The second quote by Joe is fine and good, but it adds nothing to explain his 2002 vote.

Obama is a red herring on this point.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. Well, I'm just going to have to disagree with you...
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 09:41 PM by 1corona4u
Bush had been in office 2 years at that point. Biden, and the rest of them would have had to be inside Bush & Cheney's head to know what he would do. It's not fair to assume he "should have known" when in all of his years, he had never dealt with Bush before. Now, if Bush would have been in his 2nd term, and Biden, and the rest of them would have had more dealings with him, then maybe I'd see your point better, but again, I think you're being unfair, given the limited time they had to assess him.

Obviously he learned from it.

Martin, we all know that the information they had for the war was fabricated. We know that now, because people have spoken out about it. We don't, and probably will never know all of what they had, but a lot of it is out, and the whole Plame thing was a coverup because Wilson was going to tell the world that there was no uranium purchase in Niger. Bush lied, plain and simple. If you doubt this, at all, let me know and I will be happy to provide you with links to back up what I am saying.

Biden, and the others would have needed a psychic to know what Bush was up to. Oh, and you know, yesterday, Rove said that it was the Dems who rushed to war, right? See, this is what I am talking about. How could anyone guess what their next move would be. I never in a million years thought that would be blamed on the Dems.

Now Martin, I want you to watch this, and take it all in. Then, come back here and tell me, if you think any vote for the IWR, one way, or another would have made a difference in the outcome of this situation. It wouldn't have. So basically, what we're left with is blame. I choose not to blame congress. I blame Bush, David Addington, Dick Cheney, Carl Rove, Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld, and everyone behind the scene working to cover up the real reason for this war.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/cheney/view /

I have a lot more to say on this, but we'll start here.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. No psychic was necessary to know what the Bush neocons were up to
PNAC and the neocon agenda were not secrets. There should have been little reasonable doubt that Bush would invade no matter what if the IWR passed. Did you listen to chimpy's rhetoric during the fall of 2002? It was obvious he was lying, portraying the secular dictator as a close ally of Islamic fundamentalists who wanted his regime overthrown.

No psychic was necessary to see Bush was lying and exaggerating the threat from a fourth-rate power we easily brushed aside before it was debilitated by 12 years of sanctions. A senator experienced with intelligence issues would have seen there was no solid evidence of massive WMD programs, and a foreign policy expert would understand the sectarian powderkeg of Iraq and recognize that talk of a 6-month cakewalk was delusional and/or deceitful.

A responsible Congress would know that Iraq was not an immediate threat whereas we had an extremely difficult and dangerous task on our hands that needed our focus and resources in Afghanistan. A prudent Congress would have insisted on a resolution that brought the ultimate decision for going to war back to Congress where Constitutionally it belongs.

You don't need to send me any links showing how Bush, et al LIED. I've got more bookmarks than I can count and have made the case repeatedly in open forums. Nor do I need to watch Cheney's Law again. I know what this administration is and has done, and there were plenty of clues before October 2002.

What I'm cluesless about is this sentence you wrote:

"Then, come back here and tell me, if you think any vote for the IWR, one way, or another would have made a difference in the outcome of this situation."

EVERY vote counts, whether it was enough to block the IWR or not. What are you suggesting -- that when evil can't be out-voted you should cast your vote and lend your support to it? Think about how much better shape the Democratic Party would be in right now if more had stood on principle and good judgement in 2002 and were later vindicated by what transpired in Iraq.

There were many strong Democrats who spoke against the rush to war and/or voted against it, like Robert Byrd, Russ Feingold, and Al Gore.

Now, 1corona4u, I want you to read what they had to say, and take it all in. Then, come back here and tell me if you think Joe Biden and other Democrats shouldn't have known better.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. I wasn't suggesting that at all...
I said, that it didn't matter how they voted. If they had all voted NO, Bush was going in regardless. Even Paul O'neill stated that. Bush told them to "find a way", and they found it. 9-11, unfortunately, to paraphrase from Cheney's Law, was "a moment of opportunity, meeting preparation". I choose to blame Bush & Co. Not congress. I read their arguments, and I haven't changed my mind. My decision to forgive congress for the mistake is firm. Time to move on. I just don't hold a grudge over things I can not change. I'm a Sag, so it's in my nature to get really mad, then forgive. Not forget, but forgive. Dwelling on the past is counter productive. It does no one any good.

You believe what you will. It was not my intention to try and change your mind, only to ask that you be fair when stating that "they should have known better". A few apparently did, but most did not. And I gotta be honest with you, it's just not an issue for me in this election. I think there are more important things to change, and fix, than to dwell on the past.

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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. The past is prologue
I agree with forgive but not forget. My litmus test of the IWR vote is not a matter of dwelling on the past. It's a matter of evaluating presidential qualifications on the judgement a candidate has shown -- especially on the really crucial issues that separate enlightened leadership from good intentions that can go awry. I don't blame Joe Biden and other Dems who voted for the IWR for the catastrophe in Iraq. I blame Cheney/Bush. But I remember the crucial votes and factor that into my evaluation.

What you and I differ on is the extent to which past mistakes are a predictor of future errors in judgement. The 2002 IWR may be unique in its set of circumstances and the unprecedented criminal deceit by a president, but it still stands as a crucial vote and test of judgement. Perhaps if I myself had erred in trusting Bush I would not have this litmus test. However, as I've already pointed out and as Byrd, Feingold, and Gore articulated so persuasively, the reasons for not giving this president the authority at that time far outweighed any need to grant it. If Joe Biden could not see that, what might be his blindspots as president?

To tell you the truth, I have not completely ruled out casting my vote for Joe. He has been impressive, and is more electable than my favorite, Dennis Kucinich. I also think he is more electable than the top 3 Dem contenders, despite the polls.

There is plenty of time before the Illinois primary, and I will closely examine the candidates on the issues and make an evaluation. But anyone who voted for the IWR has an uphill climb to convince me he or she possesses superior judgement.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I like that Joe - and most of the other Dems - LEARNED from the IWR betrayal
not to trust Bush.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
55. This is what Joe Biden thinks
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 09:19 PM by Truth2Tell
about the views held by many of the Democrats who post on DU:

From: "Progressive Internationalism: A Democratic National Security Strategy" by the Progressive.. ahem.. Policy Institute, and endorsed by Joe Biden:

Too many on the left seem incapable of taking America's side in international disputes, reflexively oppose the use of force, and begrudge the resources required to keep our military strong. Viewing multilateralism as an end in itself, they lose sight of goals, such as fighting terrorism or ending gross human rights abuses, which sometimes require us to act -- if need be outside a sometimes ineffectual United Nations. And too many adopt an anti-globalization posture that would not only erode our own prosperity but also consign billions of the world's neediest people to grinding poverty. However troubling the Bush record, the pacifist and protectionist left offers no credible alternative.

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?contentid=252144&su...


If you don't think Biden agrees with these DLC positions on National Security and trade, just read the speech he gave to the DLC to celebrate the release of this paper:

As this document stresses, which I hope you'll all read, the right place is, quote, "the vital center between the neo-imperial right and the non-interventionist left" -- end of quote. We want to see America exercising its strength and leadership. It will not be shy about exercising its responsibilities to combat terror, tyranny, genocide or oppression.

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=106&subid=122&cont...


Nothing scandalous about any of this. But people should understand where Biden is coming from. He's a "centrist," DLC, American Empire, Lieberman, Credit Card Company, AIPAC, NAFTA Democrat. He's buried a lot of this under the sheets for his Presidential run (at least for the primaries). But it's not gone. I promise.

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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. I'm ok with that.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 09:50 PM by 1corona4u
I'm not OK with DK, who considers bringing a questionable republicult into the race for the dems.

That, is far more questionable than what you posted above. Oh, and just one more thing. I think you're wrong about what Joe's loyalties would be, should he be the president. He's going to be far, far, far, to busy to even think about any outside interest money. Not that he has ever gotten anything notable from any of them. He would be devoted to cleaning up the current mess, and getting this country back on track.
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Hear Here!!!!
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
66. kick
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
67. Kicking
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Steely_Dan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
69. The More I
read about Biden the more I like him.
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