Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Are we really putting our country's best interests first? Can we?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:45 PM
Original message
Are we really putting our country's best interests first? Can we?
Consider the 2000 election, and I'm talking about the Republicans first. Who's more qualified to be president, Bush or McCain? The answer is obviously McCain, but Bush won the primary. Gore was the obvious choice for the Democrats. Gore won by a moth's breath, but Bush was able to work his network and steal the presidency egregiously ignoring the best interests of our nation. But Gore should have won by a much greater margin making it all but impossible for Dubya to steal the election. However, Gore ran a poor campaign trying too hard to craft his image to please some generic American. It's like a baseball pitcher trying too hard to control the ball instead of trusting his talent and just pitching his pitch.

In 2004 Bush should have been beat, even though incumbents have a distinct advantage. He's a lousy president. The Democrats chose Kerry, an intelligent, capable man, but has a difficult time connecting with the average American. After all, he's a kazillionaire. But in my opinion he blew the one chance he had by not passionately driving a stake through the heart of what appeared to be Bush's strength, national security.

At first Kerry wouldn't even say the invasion was a mistake. He slowly made his way to criticizing Bush on the actual invasion just a couple of months away from the election by declaring, "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time." Up until then he was mostly criticizing how the post invasion was conducted. Now I've gotten a lot of people hot under the collar on this blog by pointing this out about Kerry, but he did not go hard after Bush on the Iraq invasion until it got close to the election. Had he made the argument to the American people as soon as he won the primary (actually, he should have started during the primary) arguing that the invasion was a disastrous mistake and how it makes us less safe (including feeding the growth of Islamic fundamentalism, causing instability in the Middle East, causing oil prices to rise, the cost of the war, and, of course, the deaths of our soldiers--just to name a few points), if he could have successfully made his argument, I believe he might have had a chance. But he had to have done it from the start convincing Americans that he was running, not for the power thrill of being king of the free world, but because his passion for this country drove him to save it from Bush's disaster. It had to be about the passion.

But he didn't because, in my opinion, he was the wrong candidate. He slowly shifted the focus of his campaign, and it made him look wishy washy, unsure of himself. I supported Wes Clark because he's brilliant, graduating top of his class from West Point and was a Rhodes scholar, served in the military 34 years (rising to 4 star general), and spoke out strongly against invading Iraq before the invasion occurred. A brilliant 4 star general verses a reckless ideologue with sub-par intelligence who wouldn't even serve in Nam. I still believe Gen. Clark could have successfully made the argument to the American people that I wish Kerry had succeeded in making.

That brings us to 2008, and Hillary Clinton is the front runner. What frightens the hell out of me concerning Hillary is that she has many of the weaknesses our last two candidates had, but Democrats are in a euphoric state of mind after the 2006 congressional election and Bush's low approval ratings, and Hillary is so closely associated with her husband that I'm afraid people are confusing the two. And we're forgetting, the political landscape hasn't change THAT much. The nation still leans toward the right, but the Democrats have an opportunity in this election to demonstrate that a Democratic President will do a better job and can really unite us, not just say it and do the opposite, and get the majority to lean more our way.

Hillary Clinton is not perceived to be particularly impassioned about anything except becoming president. She's a very careful and skillful politician and it shows, for good and for bad. On some tough issues, e.g., immigration, social security, how to end the war, her position is not perfectly clear, trying too hard not to offend too many people. This is a mistake Gore made to a lesser degree, but that Kerry came to embody. Clinton often points to her experience in the White House, yet those records are conveniently beyond our scrutiny. We've recently learned that she plants questioners in her audience, not unlike George W. Bush. This suggests to me a lack of confidence. The Clintons make a surprise move to New York, Hillary runs for the Senate and wins, and now it's the White House. These aspects of Hillary Clinton have barely been mentioned compared to what we'll hear during the general election, and I don't think it will go over too well with the average voter. Hillary has an image problem. She has baggage, some bogus some earned, that negatively reflects on who she is underneath her political suit. Republicans revile her unceasingly, and she could be the strongest thing they have going for them in this election. I think Democrats are choosing the wrong candidate for the wrong reasons, and puts a Democratic victory at risk, and why? We have candidates who are at least as qualified as she is, but without the personal baggage. It's just that no one else is married to Bill Clinton.

The fact that the candidates with the most experience are having such a tough time in this election does not reflect well on Democrats, and referring back to my first paragraph, the inability to choose the candidate who could best serve our country is not just a Republican problem, because Democrats suffer from it too. It's an American problem. Our judgment is too easily influenced by all the things money can buy, and that obfuscates our ability to see these people for whom they really are, the qualities that we need to be able to recognize in order to choose the best candidate for our Party and for our country.

We need a candidate who can bring this country together, but such talk is anathema to too many primary voters, even though, whether we want to admit it or not, it's what our country desperately needs. It's what's best, but we no longer seem interested in what's best for our country. It's an objective leap Americans seem unwilling or unable to make, but if we don't start making that our guiding principle, all these issues we're now spending time arguing about will soon seem so petty, and we'll be wondering, what the hell were we thinking? And we'll wish to God we had done things differently.

In case anyone made it this far and is wondering who I support in this primary, I'm in strong support of the candidate who I think will, both, make the best president based experience and performance, and particularly his knowledge on foreign affairs (after all, we let's not forget that we are in two wars--and that's as serious as it gets), and makes the strongest candidate in the general election because he has the most to offer the whole America, not just half. I'm supporting Sen. Biden. His character is impeccable, he has a long record of achievements that have helped Americans, including a history of being able to work across the aisle with Republicans, he's probably the most knowledgeable legislator we have on foreign policy, something that should be an absolute requirement for any American's vote during this presidential election cycle, and he's honest, a straight shooter. If all Democrats gave a truly objective evaluation of each candidate, Joseph Biden would be our nominee. And for what it's worth, if Republicans were smart, they'd nominate John McCain. It remains to be seen which is the smarter Party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't know if you can (or anyone) can state what Kerry
Edited on Wed Nov-14-07 10:56 PM by truedelphi
was saying at various points in his campaign.

The MSM pretty much distorted his message.

I would watch the MSM and they would offer one or two sound bytes of what they wanted to convey Kerry as saying.

Then I would watch a recorded video posted on the internet of Kerry's entire speech. It would be obvious that the MSM obviously slanted their re-cap of his statements and made him as dull and lackluster as possible.

I bet very few Americans know for instance that Kerry FILLED an entire stadium in Madison Wisconsin with over 150,000 people sitting and watching him speak, the weekend before the elction.

This in a town of total population of 276,000.

I do think that Kerry saddled himself with a very inept campaign manager - I forget her name. But at one point she came on Sixty minutes and she sounded tongue tied. Compared to George W's staff, she just was not up to the task of being articulate and passionate and chrismatic.

I gave much higher points to W's campaign manager. (Didn't like the message - but had more Oomph!)

Kerry also should have educated himself to the various problems he was going to face on the day of the election in terms of the purge of voters and the debacle voters faced in Ophio with the long lines in Democratic precincts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I like John Kerry a lot, a great American and great asset to the Party.
And we could spend all night discussing the finer points of his campaign, but if he wanted to make it clear from the start about what a grave mistake we made by invading Iraq and how it poses a threat to our national security, he could have done it. He didn't and paid a political price for it. No one can say for sure, but in my opinion it cost him the election because it hurt his image as a strong leader, which was, perhaps, the essential quality Americans were looking for after 9/11. Unfortunately, the only thing Bush had going for him was that he appeared strong. Of course, we know "strong" was not the accurate word.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I thought it was stealing Ohio.
:shrug: MKJ
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. And that too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. JINX!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. OM, awesome post.
:toast:

(I thought the link would take me to another of the OP's work, so I only just now clicked)

MKJ
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. I have some questions re your post.
You put a lot of thought into, no doubt. My questions are really regarding why no resources were cited at all?

For instance:

Who's more qualified to be president, Bush or McCain? The answer is obviously McCain.


What specific qualities made him the obvious choice?

He slowly made his way to criticizing Bush on the actual invasion just a couple of months away from the election by declaring, "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time."


Date? Venue?


At first Kerry wouldn't even say the invasion was a mistake.


Sources? Dates?

I still believe Gen. Clark could have successfully made the argument to the American people that I wish Kerry had succeeded in making.


Those who supported the candidacies of Dean, Edwards and Kucinich believe the same of their candidate. Can you offer more substance to support your "belief"?

The nation still leans toward the right


This particular statement is the one in which I have the most interest. I'd be intrigued to see the metrics upon which you base this assertion.


The fact that the candidates with the most experience are having such a tough time in this election does not reflect well on Democrats, and referring back to my first paragraph, the inability to choose the candidate who could best serve our country is not just a Republican problem, because Democrats suffer from it too.


Well, now you just plain lost me...MKJ



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. It's an opinion.
I make that clear in the post. You don't have to agree. I'm merely expressing myself.

Generally speaking, on McCain it's because of his experience, his personal story, and his ability to work with Democrats. But please, don't misconstrue that as an endorsement. McCain lost the respect I had for him after the 2000 election. But if you'd like to make the case for any of the other Republicans, by all means, have at it, preferably on another thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. But, you state events as facts from which you draw that opinion.
Edited on Wed Nov-14-07 11:34 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot
If you're looking to write a substantiative essay, you can't assume that your reading audience concurs with your recounting of certain events or why A trumps B without providing something that supports said view.

Otherwise, it is truly nothing more than one person's opinion, something which all persons possess. MKJ

on edit, you really prove that bromide is based on true life. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. How many opinions would you prefer I use?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Perchance the one which sucks less than this?
:shrug: MKJ
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. Why all the hindsight talk?
:shrug:


Why not focus on the future? Who Coulda, woulda, shoulda won or did other things only helps Rove and the GOP candidates.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Learning your history is how you prepare for your future.
Or else you're doomed to keep repeating your mistakes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-14-07 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
14. heart always wins over head but, democrats keep choosing Head.
We have been on a 30 year roll of picking the head but, unappealing candidate thinking they are electable.
What they cannot seem to understand is that heart always wins the race. FDR, Kennedy, Carter, B. Clinton. they were a heart candidate and we won.
but, still, we keep insisting on the head over heart and keep losing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-15-07 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I think that's largely true.
As our current president clearly shows, intellect is a good thing in a president. The Democratic candidates who do best, like the presidents you have listed, are the ones who have the wits, but can also come across as being relaxed in their own skin. It's confidence, but also an ability to connect in an effortless way, not calculated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-15-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I couldn't disagree more. Heart is what keeps us from destroying our opposition, even though we're
the significant majority.

Because, it's unkind and immoral to ruin another because they happen to have different political beliefs, even they're a freeper, there I said it, OK!

Our best candidates are those who have the smarts and the passion, no doubt. The R's best candidates are the ones who appeal to the basest instincts of all of us.

I would posit that the RW'ers go with the head much more. MKJ
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-15-07 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. The RW'ers go with the emotions.
You seem to contradict yourself, but that's probably. It's the classic heart vs head struggle. Of course, you need both. And "destroying the enemy" means destroying a significant number of Americans. That's Rush-speak. It would be better to convince them that there's a better way. "Destroying" is part of the problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-15-07 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. LOL, you got all twisted around there. I disagree with IP's premise, that the R's have the passion
Edited on Thu Nov-15-07 08:37 AM by BleedingHeartPatriot
and the D's are more cerebral..


And, I said that "destroying" the competition is against our "hearts" and that's why we don't do it...

:rofl:

P.S
I took another perusal of your fabricated "facts", telling us what happened whether it actually did or not. Of course none dare question if the events you cite occurred or were just made up by you...now that's Rush-like.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-15-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. You seem incapable of understanding both me and IP.
IP does not state a premise that Repubs have the passion, and the rest of your post is just time-wasting garble. I've come across posters like you. I could post dozens of links to back up my assertions and you'd still come up with silly inanities all because you don't agree. Why not just say you don't agree and give your reasons why rather than get all nasty by attacking me? Just chill out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-15-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I've seen posters like you as well.
Welcome :hi: MKJ
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC