If Joe Biden learns to control his racist gaffes, he just might get my vote

[ecstatic]

My first full encounter with Biden was when he urged a black audience to get "AIDS" tests, and of course, his referring to Obama as "articulate" and "clean" for a black man. I googled him and learned he had a long history of offensive racist gaffes.

However, lately I find his comments, especially regarding Giuliani to be refreshing. Also, I love what he told the gun nut in the Youtube debate. If Biden could just keep his muzzle on when it comes to racial topics he knows nothing about, then he may become a serious contender at some point.

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

1. Why on earth would you vote for a racist? His comments

are too consistent to be "gaffes"?

[AuntPatsy]

95. Biden is a product of his times, he is no dangerous racist, by definition or at least the

media style ones which state more often than not that anyone saying anything about another race other than your own is considered to be racist style commentary.

I am beginning to believe that we are being somehow forced into calling out people for being racists when it is just not so cut and dry.

Several years back I got into a huge running argument with a close friend that racism was alive and well and had simply become more hidden, now, seven years later it is no longer hidden...

But to simply label someone a racist without a more thought out input into such a highly charged issue is wrong.

I have said years ago and still believe it today that if we cannot talk about it more openly it will never die away as it should because not enough of the right attention is being paid to such an important issue which it is by the way.


Racism effects many other issues in life such as health care, wars, education, an ineffective and highly dangerous prison building outbreak which has become just another lucrative investment, and so so many more,

[aquart]

2. Funny, my problem with him is about women.

Any color.

[iverglas]

14. well, as long as we're on the subject

what might your complaint be?

[gateley]

25. What do you mean? He's championed women's rights for years. He's

introduced legislation in support and protection of women, so I'm confused at what you're referring to.

If you can cite examples, I'd sincerely like to look into them, because it doesn't jibe with the person I believe him to be.

Thanks.

[iverglas]

27. I have a theory

Biden favours stronger firearms control ... women are helpless in the world without a pistol in their purse at all times, and liable to be raped and murdered by big bad strangers who jump out of bushes (as distinct from the men in their own households or circle of friends, who most commonly do those things to women) ... ergo Biden is bad for women.

No, I'm not completely making it up. Come visit the Guns forum sometime!


Time for dinner - my typing is deteriorating rapidly!

[gateley]

30. Interesting theory. I wasn't expecting THAT at all! Hmmmm.... nt

[iverglas]

32. hmm indeed

The favourite son of the Guns forum is Richardson ... if the denizens really really have to pick a Democrat, of course.

Both Obama and Biden have recently been subjects of their collective scorn. And of course Al Gore lost the election because he hates the second amendment.

[ecstatic]

48. I'll check out the gun forums... still

without having checked out the gun boards yet, your comment seems a little insensitive: "women are helpless in the world without a pistol in their purse at all times, and liable to be raped and murdered by big bad strangers who jump out of bushes." Women are raped and/or murdered every second around the world.

[iverglas]

64. yes, friend

Women are raped and/or murdered every second around the world.

Indeed they are. I am/almost was one of them.

And I don't take kindly to right-wingers exploiting my or any other woman's experience to push the gun-head agenda, you see.

And I'm still waiting to hear what our other friend's problem with Joe Biden "about women" might be.

[jillan]

3. If Jesse Jackson wasn't upset with "clean and articulate" than why would you be?

And about the aids testing - he is right. Infact there is a commercial on tv that says more African-Americans die from aids than everybody else. Look at this

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4RNWN_enUS233US233&q=more+blacks+die+from+aids

[ecstatic]

5. LOL. I think I can make up my own mind on what's offensive to me

and what's not. I'm not sure if you looked at the clip, but Biden's delivery was very condescending and offensive.

[jillan]

12. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if people read more into things than is really there due to their

own personal insecurities.
Just like people see faults in other people because they are the same things that they don't like about themselves.


I did not find either situation offensive at all.

[demommom]

33. Maybe, Maybe, you are the one with the problem

Maybe it's what you read into what he says. He is not a racist.
But I am sure if he knows that you are displeased with him , he will make every effort to prove it to you.:crazy:

[beaconess]

28. You're right! Since Jesse Jackson speaks for all black people . . .

if he wasn't offended, neither should the rest of us?

Of course, that means that whenever Jesse Jackson IS offended, that means the rest of us are right to be offended, as well. Right?

[jillan]

31. No - but since he is one of the most outspoken people for African-American's rights, I would think

he would have some credibility.

[beaconess]

55. Apparently he only has credibility when he says something that most white people want to believe

THEN he is the spokesperson for black America and if all of us don't agree with him, we're out of touch. But whenever Rev. Jackson says anything that white people DISAGREE with, he's a race-card-playing, demagoguing "so-called civil rights leader" who claims to speak for all blacks but who doesn't speak for anyone but himself (with a reference to the "Hymietown" remark thrown in for good measure as proof that he has no credibility about anything).

[EffieBlack]

56. Here's a very short list of other prominent blacks who are outspoken about civil rights

Marc H. Morial, President and CEO, National Urban League

Theodore Shaw, President, NAACP Legal Defense Fund

Dr. Dorothy Height, President Emeritus, National Council of Negro Women

Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, Chairman, Congressional Black Caucus (representing 43 African-American Members of Congress and the Senate, all of whom also speak out on civil rights issues)

Melanie Campbell, Executive Director, National Coalition on Black Civic Participation

Rev. Lennox Yearwood, President, Hip Hop Caucus

Mayor George Grace, President, National Conference of Black Mayors (representing more than 500 black mayors across the country, many of whom also speak out on civil rights)

just to name a few. These and other leaders represent tens of millions of black people across the country - but when was the last time you saw any of them on Meet the Press or Hardball or the Today Show?

[Debi]

71. Welcome to DU EffieBlack

:hi:

[ginchinchili]

4. It wasn't too long ago that medical professional were recommending...

that everyone who is sexually active get tested for AIDS. You should also consider Joe Biden's work on behalf of civil rights. It's what motivated him to run for the Senate in the first place. As for his comments on Obama, let's be clear. He didn't say Obama was articulate and clean FOR A BLACK MAN. This makes the content of your post very suspect. Obama IS very articulate, for anyone, not just for a black man, as you choose to put it. And he's a nice looking sharp dresser. Several people who know Biden made it clear that Biden may run at the mouth too much at times, but he's far from being a racist. Most thinking people can tell that in a person. There's no sign of it in Joe Biden. I hope I'm wrong, but I think your post is a disingenuous strike at the candidate who could do the most to help this country through the shit that it presently finds itself in.

[Bluebear]

8. You cannot be tested for AIDS.

You can, however, be tested for exposure to the Human Immunodeficiency Virus.

[ginchinchili]

11. Whatever.

[ecstatic]

10. I'm not convinced that he is actually a racist

For now, I think he just says a lot of offensive things, without thinking. I really need for him to correct that before I support him fully.

Also, I'm not being disingenuous, he really was on my shit list for a long time but now I'm warming up to him because he took on the guy I hate (Giuliani).

[gateley]

21. There's more to him than taking on Giuliani. He's been a civil rights activist

since he was young, and has a 100% rating from the NAACP. I won't go into detail beyond that, but suffice it to say if the NAACP thinks highly of Biden, my guess is he's not a bigot. If I believed he was, no way in hell would I be supporting him.

He really is a good, caring person - and extremely knowledgeable and experienced in so many areas.

[iverglas]

13. Joe Biden's mother probably had an expression for it

(like the "clean as a whistle and sharp as a tack" line he quoted from her in response to indignation about his description of Obama).

It goes: damning with faint praise.

[PatSeg]

6. When asked as a young senator,

by an old-time segregationist, southern senator, why he went into politics, Biden answered, "Civil Rights". The NAACP gives him a rating of 100%.

"Articulate and clean"??? What does that mean to most people? Evidently it means different things to different people, but Biden is of a political generation where "clean" means corruption-free, which certainly describes Obama. "Articulate" is a compliment, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with race or nationality. Some people express themselves clearly and intelligently - Obama does.

If the media had not made an issue of this, we wouldn't be talking about it now. I am so sick of people reading between the lines of everything a person says. And I'm tired of the media making a news story about things of little consequence, while avoiding far more important issues.

[jillan]

16. Well said!

And I am so sick of white people being called articulate and nobody cares.
To me it's as if the people that are making a big deal about it are the racists.

[PatSeg]

42. Thanks - I'm in a pissy mood

and I have a very low tolerance for any more political BS. I don't give a shit about Edward's hair, Dennis's UFO's, or Hillary's laugh. Maybe in a another time, we could play political games without repercussions, but not now.

If we don't grow up and start taking the issues seriously, then we'll deserve what we get. Empty rhetoric and obscure political promises may appease us temporarily, but it will not sustain us over the long term.

This is not about "my guy/gal" is better than yours. It is not about winning or losing. The media has hijacked our political process and this may be our last chance to take it back. Many of our young people don't realize what we are losing. They were raised on media sound bites and consumer driven realities. Those of us who are older, know where we've been and how we got here. We can see where we are headed and if we don't turn things around, Democracy as we know, it will become a quaint myth in future textbooks, if its mentioned at all.

[iverglas]

68. it's actually quite interesting

Biden gets some buzz in the media ... and suddenly the knives come out.

[PatSeg]

72. That is an indicator that he's getting some traction

The candidates who aren't a serious threat, rarely get attacked.

[demommom]

106. HERE! HERE!

You are so right. Thank you !!

[Alexander]

7. He liked to joke about how Delaware was a slave state...

and how it "tried to join the Confederacy but Maryland was in the way".

Biden's an idiot. No thanks.

[Colobo]

15. You are right...

I like Biden, but he says things...

[gateley]

23. Yeah he does say things, and although I cringe at some of them, I honestly

believe his intent and 'meaning' have been misconstrued.

I've heard people say - right in front of me - "gateley said.....and she obviously meant..." and I'm flabbergasted - their interpretation was not even CLOSE to what my meaning was. I think that happens a lot to all the candidates, and some people aren't willing to look at what that candidate has DONE, what that candidate stands for. They only glomp on to the sound bite, make a judgment, and there's no looking back.

[iverglas]

24. it's what passes for political discourse in the US

Of course, it is actually the worst kind of demagoguery, and a major enemy of democracy. Democracy depends on the truth being told.

As your Mark Twain once said:

A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

[Think82]

20. Whoa. hold on. He was asked by Fox News if people could get behind a northeast liberal like him...

to which Biden retorted. "Uh, my state was a slave state." He was obviously not bragging, but making a sarcastic remark to an idiotic question.

GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK, PEOPLE! If you think Biden is a racist, you're obviously not paying attention or acting out of your own insecurities regarding what a fantastic candidate he is.

[Alexander]

44. That was ONE occasion of MANY where he referenced Delaware being a slave state.

Surely this article will change your tune.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-15-politicians-king_x.htm

Biden noted Delaware was "a slave state that fought beside the North. That's only because we couldn't figure out how to get to the South — there were a couple of other states in the way."

You obviously like to whitewash Biden's foot-in-mouth problem. That's fine. Just be honest and admit what it is you do.

[KittyWampus]

52. You're obviously devoid of the wit required to detect sarcasm.Either that or you've a political

reason for failing to grasp it.

Biden clearly references the fact his Delaware was a slave state while obliquely chiding the fact.

It's obvious to anyone who listens or reads his comments.

[Alexander]

73. And you're obviously a shill for Biden devoid of all common sense and reason...

How's the weather in Wilmington?

[iverglas]

22. so here's your source

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFduMuP7v-k

Q: ... What kind of a chance would a northeastern liberal like Joe Biden stand in the south if you were running in Democratic primaries against southerners like Mark Warner and John Edwards?

A: Better than anybody else. You don't know my state. My state was a slave state, my state is a border state, my state has the eighth largest black population in the country ... (video ends)

How on earth does stating facts to dispel the inaccurate characterization of himself as a "northeastern" liberal -- and specifically pointing out that "the south" consists of African-Americans as well as the caricature rednecks who despise "northeastern liberals" -- qualify as "joking" about anything?


I don't find a source for the other material you have in quotation marks, so you might want to provide it, with an accurate quotation.

Until then, again, I see little problem with stating facts that provide an accurate characterization of his state at a time generations before he was born.

I actually looked into Biden's genealogy the other day. (He has at least one ancestor who comes from a few miles away from some of mine, in Cheshire, England. My people emigrated from England to Canada 250 years later.)

http://www.gedview.com/biden/individual.php?pid=I2&ged=BIDENjosephOGFN574408209.ged

His grandfather George Biden was born in Maryland in 1867; his grandmother Emily (Biden) was born there in 1870.

His grandfather George Robinette was born in Maryland in 1844; his grandmother Mary was born there or in Ohio in 1862.

His early Robinett ancestor can be found in local records in Pennsylvania from the early 1700s where a descendant of that English ancestor of mine is also listed. He accompanied William Penn to the colonies:
http://robinette.org/wp-content/uploads/Allen%20Robinett%20Part1.pdf

Penn was a Quaker. Obviously Robinett was too, as was my distant long-ago cousin. I would suspect that the same was true of the Biden line. (Joe Biden is RC because he was reared in his mother's religion.)

http://www.udel.edu/suapp/about/whatsnew.htm

The Quakers were an essential part of the Underground Railroad in Delaware, Maryland and Pennsylvania having condemned slavery in 1754, more than 100 years before slavery was abolished in the U.S.

Now I'm not saying that Biden's great-grandparents were conductors on the underground railway.

I'm saying that Biden is a product of Maryland, and of families who do not appear to have been involved in slavery and in all likelihood opposed it and were part of the very reason why Maryland stood in Delaware's way, and there is not the first shred of a reason to suggest that Biden has either joked about slavery in Delaware or, as a youtube pundit and others have had it, "bragged" about it.



Bad editing edited.

[Alexander]

45. You got the wrong source, I'm afraid.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-15-poli...

Biden noted Delaware was "a slave state that fought beside the North. That's only because we couldn't figure out how to get to the South — there were a couple of other states in the way."

[Debi]

53. You're link isn't working - here's one to the story

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-15-politicians-king_x.htm


Biden wants Confederate flag off S.C.grounds

COLUMBIA, S.C. — Sen. Joseph Biden said Monday he would vote to keep the Confederate flag off South Carolina's Statehouse grounds, a location that prompted the NAACP's ongoing boycott of the state.

"If I were a state legislator, I'd vote for it to move off the grounds — out of the state," the Delaware senator and Democratic presidential hopeful said before the civil rights group held a march and rally at the Statehouse here.

<snip>

In November, Biden joked about South Carolina's Confederate past at a Rotary Club meeting in Columbia after organizers said their Christmas party at the Department of Archives and History would include a chance to see the state's original copy of the Articles of Secession.

Biden noted Delaware was "a slave state that fought beside the North. That's only because we couldn't figure out how to get to the South — there were a couple of other states in the way."

Biden expects legislators here will eventually move the flag. Pointing to his heart, he said, "as people become more and more aware of what it means to African-Americans here, this is only a matter of time."

<snip>

[iverglas]

67. and your point is?

Biden pointed out what is apparently an historical fact -- that there was support for the Confederacy in Delaware.

Now, how about you say what you mean and mean what you say.

Are you saying that Joe Biden wishes that Delaware had joined the Confederacy? That he himself supports the principles and purposes of the Confederacy? Funny how he advocates removal of the Confederate flag from state property. Context is just so useful, isn't it?

The article is headlined:

Biden wants Confederate flag off S.C.grounds

and part of it reads:

Biden noted Delaware was "a slave state that fought beside the North. That's only because we couldn't figure out how to get to the South — there were a couple of other states in the way."

Biden expects legislators here will eventually move the flag. Pointing to his heart, he said, "as people become more and more aware of what it means to African-Americans here, this is only a matter of time."

To give it its real meaning, and not whatever meaning you seem to be wanting to ascribe to it: Delaware has a systemically racist past, and considerable vestiges of that racism remain, and he does not subscribe to those beliefs.

The article also says:

In Chicago, Sen. Barack Obama was a hit at a Rainbow/PUSH Coalition breakfast honoring King, even if he didn't deliver what much of the crowd clearly wanted: a declaration that he will run for president.

Obama received a standing ovation at the annual King scholarship breakfast when the Rev. Jesse Jackson introduced him with an approving reference to the Illinois Democrat's presidential aspirations.

... And all without dragging a bigot along to sing for him ...


Now, maybe you will tell us straight out what meaning you ascribe to it.


(By the way, as a white person, I don't have any problem with Jesse Jackson, who is undoubtedly as prone to sticking his foot in his mouth as Joe Biden and the rest of us human beings, and who does a mean Dr. Seuss to boot.)


(And by the way, when you cite no source and I find one that says what you referred to without quoting or citing, you don't get to tell me that I have the wrong source.)

[Alexander]

74. Biden: "You cannot go to a 7-11...unless you have a slight Indian accent".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIT3jUrNTX0

Oh, and context? At the end, to underscore his point, he says "I'm not joking".

:puke:

There's the video. Let Biden speak for himself.

You're whitewashing racism. Just admit that you're a shill for Biden and we can be done with this ridiculous conversation.

[Debi]

82. As compared to another candidate insulting Ghandi

<snip>

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton apologized yesterday for joking that Mahatma Gandhi "ran a gas station down in St. Louis." The New York Democrat made the remark Saturday at a fund-raiser in St. Louis for Senate candidate Nancy Farmer while Clinton was introducing a quote from Gandhi. Many in the crowd of 200 laughed, and Clinton said: "No, Mahatma Gandhi was a great leader of the 20th century." She then quoted the Indian independence leader as saying: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

The former first lady called her introduction "a lame attempt at humor" and insisted it was not based on any stereotype about certain ethnic groups. "I have admired the work and life of Mahatma Gandhi and have spoken about it many times," Clinton said. "I truly regret if a lame attempt at humor suggested otherwise."

<snip>

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/elec04.s.mo.farmer.clinton.ap/

[Alexander]

97. And have I EVER said anything supportive of Hillary?

Fuck no. She and Biden are two of a kind - worthless corporate Democrats in my book.

[iverglas]

86. enjoy yourself

Me, I don't even get to vote. No horse in the race. You, some other motivation.

So you just keep on trying to pretend that something Biden said TO AN INDIAN-AMERICAN DEMOCRAT about the Indian-American community in his constituency was ... I dunno, what? A really stupid slam at the Indian-American entrepreneurs in his state, gratuitously offered to an Indian-American supporter? Does anybody really believe Biden is that stupid?

Some people sure do love to take offence on behalf of others whom they don't bother consulting ...

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Indian-American+activist+defends+Sen.+Biden&articleId=0108a2f4-0530-4860-b010-5b076007bff6

Manish Antani says U.S. Sen. Joe Biden "definitely got a bad rap" from the national media for his remarks about Indian-Americans.

Antani is a 23-year-old Nashua resident and self-described Indian activist who was on the receiving end of what's been described on numerous political Web sites and talk shows as insensitive comments the presidential candidate made during a visit to Manchester last month.

"I was very upset" at the portrayal, Antani told UnionLeader.com today. "I'm 100 percent behind him because he did nothing wrong." He said he did not view the comments as derogatory.

... "The negative press coverage of Senator Biden's comments was completely unfair," Antani said.

http://news.indiainfo.com/2006/07/11/1107antani-biden-remarks.html

Manish Antani, 23, a resident of Nashua, New Hampshire, and a self-described Indian activist, has been quoted as saying that he was 100 percent behind him (Biden) because he did nothing wrong.

... According to a report in the New Hampshire Union Leader newspaper, Antani, who kept quiet for quite some time after the incident, has now said that his not commenting must have been a mistake.

"I thought it was so ridiculous that I didn't want to deal with it," he told the newspaper.

... "You can tell if someone's going to make a derogatory comment and he wasn't," Antani was quoted as saying.

... According to the Leader report, Antani, who claimed that he was a 'grassroots member' of the US-India Political Action Committee, has said that he was not yet committed to supporting Biden's presidential campaign. The Purdue University graduate is a registered member of the Democratic Party.

... but what does he matter?

http://www.usinpac.com/election2008/democrats.asp?candidate=biden
(my emphasis)

US India Political Action Committee

... Joseph Biden, Delware's longest serving senator, is also one of the nation's most committed Indophiles. Currently the chairman of the influential Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Sen. Biden is vocal supporter of India's place in the emerging global order, and backed the US-India nuclear cooperation agreement in Congress to the hilt. His passionate Senate speech on the day the Bill was put to vote endeared him even more to the Indian American community. Despite an unfortunate remark about Indian Americans stereotyping them with 7-11 stores and Dunkin' Donut outlets which he says was not intended to hurt the community, Sen. Biden remains a pro-India member of Congress at Capitol Hill.

Feel free to browse the other candidate profiles at USINPAC for Indian/India-specific content such as the above. You won't find any.

[Alexander]

98. All I know is what comes out of Biden's mouth all the time...

And how if it were a Republican saying those things, we here at DU would be attacking them for being a racist, and rightfully so.

If Biden doesn't want to invite such criticism, he should learn when to keep his mouth shut.

[Think82]

107. and what come sout of yours. I think you have a Biden crush and don't know how to deal

How many republicans have a 100% NAACP rating? Mmm? I dunno what your vendetta is against biden. You are like the only person here who goes out of his way to trash him.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

9. you can actually take a speech

in which someone talks about the neglect of the African-American community by the medical community and the white community ("as Hillary points out", and with Clinton nodding firm agreement in the background), and the real and serious problem of HIV in the African-American community, and call it "racist". Amazing.

Reminiscent of how the anti-choice forces take Margaret Sanger's efforts to make contraception available in the African-American community and call her a racist ...

Martin Luther King and Coretta Scott King didn't agree on Sanger.

http://www.joebiden.com/issues/?id=0024

Joe Biden was an original co-sponsor of the bill to designate a national holiday in honor of Martin Luther King, Jr., and helped guide its passage through the Senate.

-- and everything else you can read at that link if you bother: support for hate crimes legislation, measures to prevent African-Americans from being cheated out of their vote, ending the discriminatory crack/cocaine sentencing rules that effectively punished people for being black.

Interesting how you perpetuate a really very discredited interpretation of what Biden said when there is actually no reason to adopt that interpretation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcX_xfuivbs

What Biden is known for is honesty and collegiality.

I can't think of any reason to interpret his clumsy statement as racist, given his failure to exhibit racism in any other way; and I can't think of any reason to interpret it as an attack on another candidate, given his failure to engage in that strategy on any other occasion.

[ginchinchili]

17. People who use such deceitful and disingenuous attacks obviously don't have...

our nation's best interests at heart. It brings to mind the swift boat ads. Thanks for your post.

[jillan]

18. Thank you - I didn't know all that.

[Sandaasu]

19. Hadn't seen the gun thing before.

That's damn impressive, I've got to say.

His gaffes regarding race aren't so bad. The comments about Obama were iffy, but not outright racist I'd say. The ones about AIDS, on the other hand, were spot on. It's a tough thing to say, but people of African descent are harder hit by AIDS. Because of this, targeting educational programs regarding it towards them is not a racist thing to do. It's simply dealing with matters of the real world, and trying to help those that are harmed by it. I don't get offended that homosexuals are targeted for such things, because we can use it!

[beaconess]

29. I don't think Biden is a racist

He does, however, have a terrible penchant for talking too much and saying dumb things, some of which are offensive, as his "clean and articulate" comment was.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

34. Biden does say a lot of things that are odd for a politician

It's like he's missing one or two political filters.

I've been watching Joe's gaffes for years, and at some point I decided his problem is that he's not racist enough to even understand the problem with some of his statements. He feels good will and assumes (wrongly) that his good will is so obvious that nobody could take offense.

His reactions to these things are always confused and genuinely sad that he might have hurt anyone's feelings. I swear his staff has to explain these things to him... "I don't get it... what's wrong with saying Barrack is clean? Isn't clean a good thing? I like Barrack."

When he said all the 7/11s and Dunkin' Donuts in Delaware are staffed by Indians he was talking about how great it is that Delaware had a big influx of Indian immigrants who were doing well... he thought it was a good thing, not a jab at anyone. (And was probably thinking in terms of Indian ownership of the franchises, not in terms of dead-end cashiers jobs.)

Biden's arrogance probably also plays a role in why he doesn't filter his speech. He's smart and is a bit to aware of the fact, so he feels free to just free-associate incautiously. That style is the source of his gaffes, and also his greatest political strength. A trade-off, kind of like Bill Clinton's animal magnetism.

[More Than A Feeling]

36. Wait a minute. Posters up thread were talking about how Joe

went into politics to support civil rights. How can you have been a civil rights activist and NOT be aware of these things, especially if you are a smart person like Biden?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

39. I may have phrased it badly

It's not that he isn't intellectually aware of the aspects of American racism, it's that he doesn't frame those things in terms of himself... as something for HIM to regulate. At least in Biden's understanding of himself there's no simmering racist Joe inside that he needs to keep in check when he talks.

And, like I said, he seems to have an inordinately high opinion of himself. It's not like "how could that possibly mean anything bad?" It's more like, "How could that possibly mean anything bad coming from JOE BIDEN?"

I see his gaffes as a mix of innocence and arrogance. And I do see his loose lips as a legitimate political liability. (He's been around a long time, so I'm sure he has a lot of outmoded turns of phrase rattling around.)

Just one man's opinion, of course. Maybe he's a racist. I just haven't seen it.

[demommom]

40. Thank you, I have wanted to say this just wasn't able to

say this as well as you have. He is not a racist.

[More Than A Feeling]

43. Well, I guess that makes sense.

Says a lot about Biden's political talent or his connections that he can pretty much let it all hang out like that and still be senator, and starting so young...guess I've found my new hero.

And my pick for John Edwards' VP ;)

[Lucinda]

51. I'm a strong supporter of civil rights and got slammed not too long ago

for saying Obama was articulate. I don't know anyone who uses the word as an insult. It was a surprise to me...So I can see how Biden mught not be aware of how words or phrases are used my some people...

[PatSeg]

65. The whole PC thing is out of control

If you are judging a candidate without consideration to race or gender, then Obama is clearly "articulate". The media created a controversy out of a harmless compliment.

[Lucinda]

66. Yep.

It boggles the mind. We live in a world of spin, when a compliment can be twisted into an insult.

[beaconess]

108. Biden was not "judging a candidate without consideration to race"

Race was the gravaman of his point: "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy."

It was BIDEN who injected race into the discussion at the outset, not those who took exception to his comments.

[iverglas]

69. to be honest

The one that bothered *me* about it was "bright".

"Bright" is a word that is applied to inferiors. Women are called "bright" all the time; the old-timer in the marketing department might call the new young sales guy "bright". It's inherently patronizing. Someone who is taken seriously is intelligent; a non-threatening youngster / member of a subordinate group is bright. Because of who they are, it's a bit of a surprise for them to be so smart, is how it always sounds to me.

The thing is that Biden is far from the only person to use such words to describe, especially, newcomers. It is so widespread that no one even notices. If a man says it of a woman, I find it patronizing. I think the same applies when a white person says it about a black person. It is hardly ever intended as an insult; it is intended as a compliment, but it's back-handed because of the overtones.

But there again, we have Joe Biden as just like everybody else -- living a slightly unexamined life. A little more attention on his part to his context when he speaks would be wise. It's not wise to expect everybody else to be considering the context, every time one says something, to realize that no offence was intended.

Frankly, I think that whatever condescension Joe was probably unintentionally displaying was based on Obama's youth more than his race, and that if it had been a woman he was talking about the same would have been true. If he did have an ulterior motive, I would take it to be to point out Obama's youth and hence inexperience.

I grew up in a city in Ontario of about 100,000 where you could have counted the people of colour on your hands and feet -- it is still tied with a small town in Alberta for being the most ethnically homogeneous (WASP) community in Canada. No personal exposure to racism or other forms of bigotry, because there just weren't any opportunities for it, really. There were one Jewish kid and one Chinese-Canadian kid in my class; my best friend in the neighbourhood was RC, though. My family and my church, however, actively taught tolerance and respect. I now live in a very ethnically mixed, low-income inner city neighbourhood, after spending years representing and advocating for immigrants from all corners of the globe. I know that I have prejudices that I'll never be rid of, simply from growing up without any real contact with the "other".

In the late 1950s, when my little brother was about three, he and my mother were on the bus when a black man got on -- from my mum's description, I'd say he looked much like Obama looks on stage. My brother stood up and pointed and said, for all the bus to hear, "mummy, mummy, look at the chocolate man!" Not a racist bone in his three-year-old body, or in my mum's; he had simply never seen a black person. She tried to shove my brother under the seat while turning beet red. The "chocolate man" looked highly unamused.

Joe Biden doesn't have the same background, obviously. But he may well still have the "who, me?" mind-set. The one that doesn't grasp, at a gut level, what life is like for the "chocolate man", and doesn't always take into account that context before speaking. I suspect it's all a little intellectualized for him, just as I suspect the abortion rights issue is -- he can say that funding abortions for low-income women is "imposing a view", and not go beyond that to look at the real lives of the real women affected.

I've made the comparison to Pierre Trudeau -- our supremely big-headed former Prime Minister, who also lacked an ability to get things at a gut level. He championed the formal human rights, the kind that are in constitutions, as Biden has championed what are called civil rights in the US. But the reality of people's lives didn't really interest him.

I think the reality of people's lives does interest Biden. I think maybe he needs to be smacked a bit with that reality, in order to be a more perfect person (as Kucinich obviously was regarding reproductive rights, as I've said).

I don't think that whatever his shortcomings may be in that regard would make him a less perfect president than anyone else on offer.

[PatSeg]

70. Bright

That is a word that is usually used to describe someone younger and less experienced. It indicates a generational difference. I can see how an elder statesman would look at a new senator and refer to him/her as "bright", a word that was probably used to describe Biden when he first ran for the senate at 29.

[beaconess]

109. Beautiful!

[ecstatic]

47. Interesting, you may be right- but right now it's still too risky to have him in the GE

Our nominee *must* be aware of what s/he is saying at ALL times.

[ginchinchili]

49. I welcome someone who doesn't speak like a politician.

If given the choice between someone who only speaks safe, well-screened lines or someone who speaks honestly from the heart at the risk of misspeaking, I'll take the candidate who refuses to speak through filters. I trust Joe Biden. I trust his judgment on political matters and I trust his social integrity.

[beaconess]

58. VERY well said - I think you're exactly right nt

[Froward69]

35. I had to chime in here

Every time I sit down and watch TV the same commercial comes on. where Jamie Foxx urges Men to get an aids test. Then points out that more Black men die from it than cancer, heart disease, and stroke Combined. Why isn't Jamie Foxx a racist? by your logic he should be labeled as such.

Just because a white guy points out something disparaging about the black community, he is instantly labeled a racist. Why is that?

(The label "black community" is racist in its self. as we are all in the same community)

Distancing your self (from anything) based on the color of your skin, you your self are acting out your own racism.

Once when Groucho was denied admittance to the local swimming pool, he asked if his daughter could go in up to her waist? as she was only half Jewish.

Geeze Didn't anyone ever really pay attention to Sesame Street? not just letters and numbers, but race relations?

when I was a kid my favorite character from the "Electric Company" was "Easy reader". Name the actor.
if you can. Hint M F! he is still my favorite actor. (oops another hint)

[Froward69]

37. And another thing

This week Biden called Rudy Giuliani stupid. bated him to make ridiculous remarks. Made rudy out to be slightly smarter than retarded. Will rudy get upset, because he is of Italian decent? and try to label Biden a racist against Italians?


um no, not by a long shot.

[jillan]

38. BIDEN HAS THE SECOND HIGHEST RATING BY THE ACLU of all the candidates running - only Dennis is highe

ACLU Rating: Joe Biden has an 80% lifetime rating from the ACLU, the second-highest of any 2008 presidential candidate (only Dennis Kucinich, at 89%, has him beat).

and this

Race and Equal Opportunity - Regressive Words, Progressive Actions: If you judge Joe Biden by his words, he is one of the most problematic candidates on race issues--referring to Obama condescendingly as "clean, bright, and articulate" and making anti-Asian jokes about 7-11 and Baskin-Robbins. But the Rev. Jesse Jackson has stood up for Biden, claiming that he is a strong supporter of civil rights, and the record of Biden--a frequent speaker at NAACP events--bears that out.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/ussenators/p/joe_biden.htm

Lighten up people!

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

41. Gaffes aside... in 1987 Biden promised civil rights leaders he would lead the opposition to Bork

And Bork didn't make it to the Supreme Court. (Was our last victory against a republican SC nominee really twenty years ago?)

So that counts for something, at least.

[beaconess]

59. And then let Clarence Thomas get out of his Committee

I like Biden and will strongly support him if he gets the nomination, but I will never forget that he is largely responsible for Clarence Thomas sitting on the Supreme Court.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

63. Fair enough!

[Jade Fox]

77. Yeah, that's my biggest beef with Biden...

I'd like to hear him address how he would do that differently, assuming he would.

[Think82]

90. BIDEN voted NO on Thomas

[beaconess]

99. He was the CHAIRMAN of the Judiciary Committee who lost control of the hearing process,

allowed it to be turned into a circus, gave Thomas a primetime spot for his self-righteous "high-tech lynching" lecture, to which he listened, respectfully, chastened and quiet, like a scared pup, and then failed to even try to rebut. And, as if that wasn't bad enough, he then proceeded to allow the Republican senators to rake Anita Hill over the coals.

Biden was well aware that if Thomas made it out of Committee, there were a number of Democratic senators who would vote to confirm; it was his task as Chair to keep him from getting out of Committee. He failed miserably, allowing Thomas to come out of Committee with no recommendation - which, in reality, was the same as if the Committee recommended confirmation.

So by the time the final vote came around, Biden's "no" vote was meaningless. We needed him to do his job as Chair of the Committee and not punt the nomination out to the floor, as he did.

A lot of years have passed and although I will not vote for him in the primary, I will certainly support him if he's the nominee. But I will never forget his deplorable lack of leadership that has since caused this nation so much damage.

[Jade Fox]

100. No one behaved well.....

in that particular fiasco except Anita Hill. But, yeah, Biden just sort of caved. It was clear he had no idea what was the right thing to do. Hopefully, he's learned.

[youthere]

104. Biden voted NO on Thomas.

[Catherine Vincent]

46. Biden's alright.

He may say some things that can be taken out of context but let's give him a break. Didn't he have brain surgery a while back?

[Debi]

54. 20 years ago and he fully recovered. His brain aneurysms have nothing

to do with his intelligence and political ability.

[BronxBoy]

50. What's wrong with what he said?????

I'm Black and painfully aware that the Black community represents the single largest group at risk for contracting HIV\AIDS.

I think Black women make up 60% of all new HIV\AIDS cases.

And there has been a lack of leadership among certain sectors of the Black community in dealing with this issue.

So how is this racist again???

[ecstatic]

61. Did you view the clip

His delivery was offensive. And Sharpton's facial expression was priceless!

[BronxBoy]

62. Yeah I did

And I didn't think it was offensive.

Here's what's offensive

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3318-2005Feb6.html

http://www.natap.org/2006/CROI/CROI_18.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-12-01-aids-blacks_x.htm

http://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/20060210/blacks-top-hivaids-diagnoses-in-us

Not trying to bust your chops. I think we should be more concerned about his message not whether it was delivered in the most appropriate manner. Keep this in mind: NO republican candidates found it necessary to address ANY Black, Hispanic or Gay audiences to talk about OUR issues. So I'm not going to rake this guy over the coals for having the balls to come into our environment and discuss a REAL problem that we have. Is he were Obama, would we be having this conversation?

It's ok for Whites to speak to problems in the Black community.

Edited for spelling

[Jade Fox]

79. And he was applauded by the audience....

I watched the clip and had no problem with what he said.

[SaveElmer]

57. Biden is not a racist...

Not by a long shot...the notion is utterly ridiculous..

He has a shorthand way of talking from time to time that leaves what he says open to misinterpretation...

Which he does have to control...but I defy anyone to look at his record on civil rights and still make that claim...

[ecstatic]

60. So he shouldn't have a problem correcting his gaffes

At which point, I may seriously consider him. It absolutely essential that he think long and hard before saying anything that could hurt the Dems next November.

[Jade Fox]

75. I have no problem with his "AIDS test" comment....

Do you have a link to what he said about Obama? I'd like to hear what was actually said so I can judge for myself. Thanks!!

[goodgd_yall]

76. He has a history of gaffes, period

One of the big reasons I don't support him as our nominee. He's bound to put his foot in it in a big way, if president. The media would run with it, valid or not, and then we'd be stuck with weeks of distraction.

[Alexander]

78. Agreed. Biden's gaffe list is way too long for my liking.

He'd have to explain every stupid thing he did since he flunked that law school class.

[Think82]

81. You guys have pretty f-ed up priorities

Biden is the best we have.

[Inuca]

84. DId you notice how many gaffes he has made since

he started his presidential campain? As far as I know, ONE, the very first day, the Obama thing. The man is smart, and knows when to pay attention and control his mouth.

[goodgd_yall]

87. What "Obama thing"?

I remember one during the forum at Soldier's Field in front of the AFL-CIO members. A woman from the audience had just finished describing the suffering her husband was going through (a coal miner, I think?) and then asked Biden a question. He ignored her and her question and said he wanted to make a point on something one of the other candidates had just said. There were boos throughout the audience.

[Inuca]

88. Describing Obama as clean and articulate

the answer to the AFL-CIO question was most definitely not one of his best phrased ones, but he DID answer the question, before starting to speak about something else. There were indeed boos.

[goodgd_yall]

91. I didn't take his description of Obama as racist

I was surpised as he started answering the question, not sure if it was stereotyping or talking reality. I gave him the benefit of the doubt because I think Biden is a good man. I remember Gravel making a similar type of statement that could be taken as either racist or stereotyping in the Howard University debate as well.

[Inuca]

93. Neither did I

but there was a lot of talk about this back then

[beaconess]

101. Not racist - insensitive and stupid

Educated black people are frequently referred to as "articulate" by white people - it happens so regularly that we often joke about it. While it does happen occasionally, similarly educated and accomplished white people are not referred to as "articulate" - since it's assumed that an educated white person can ar-ti-cu-late.

And when we're called articulate, it's not usually done in passing - it's spoken with a tone of surprise "and she's so ARTICULATE!"

Interestingly, folks like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson are rarely called articulate - even though they speak beautiful English and articulate very well. I have come to believe that the reason for this is that they speak with a black cadence - and that when used to refer to black people, articulate doesn't mean that one speaks good English or ar-ti-cu-lates well, but really means "(s)he talks just like a white person."

[iverglas]

89. I love a bedtime story

A woman from the audience had just finished describing the suffering her husband was going through (a coal miner, I think?) and then asked Biden a question. He ignored her and her question and said he wanted to make a point on something one of the other candidates had just said. There were boos throughout the audience.

Oh, no, look; here we are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrDciFq57ak
at about 6:30 -- funny how I had to be the one to give a source (after considerable time spent finding it) for the facts of an event that you chose to characterize rather than give facts about.

Biden did not "ignore her and her question". He spoke to her, and he answered her question. What the booing was about is not plain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR_3WoDeYQ8

[goodgd_yall]

92. Those of us on DU watching this forum were clear what the booing was about

Biden gave the woman short shrift. If you saw the forum in the whole context, you would have understood what the booing was about. In the excerpt you give it may look like "what's the big deal" because it is an excerpt. Did you watch the forum at the time it was televised?

[PatSeg]

94. And that wasn't a real gaffe until the media jumped all over it

[jillan]

80. I'll take a few gaffes for a man who understands the ME>

Biden warned us about Pakistan.
Warned us about 9/11.

If the trade off is an insult to a 7/11 worker or handling ME relations in the corret way, I'll take the later.

[Inuca]

83. I do not agree with the premise in the OP

Yes, Biden sometimes talks too much and may say things that are not 100% PC. On the other hand, his way of talking is so different (in most cases refreshingly so) from the way most politicians talk that, as mentioned in some other thread, a kind of "urban legend" has been created about his propensity of talking too much and putting his foot in his mouth too much. He does it, but not often, and IMHO it is the price to pay for the intelligent and unusual way he has to talk about things, from the most important political issues to the trivial. And he most definitely is not a racist. The famous Obama comments may have sounded condescending, I am sure they were not meant this way, but if anything they were rather the condescension of an older more experienced man toward a youthful newcomer that has made quite a splash. The media ran with it, and made a mountain out of a tine anthill for a few days, and what fun that was!

In any case, the OP basically says that if Biden can HIDE his racism, then he will be OK, which is pure nonsense.

[goodgd_yall]

85. I was more upset with Obama in the Howard University debate

I thought it was a potential teaching moment when Biden said he was tested for HIV. This is the transcript from that portion of the debate:
BIDEN:...I spent last summer going through the black sections of my town, holding rallies in parks, trying to get black men to understand it is not unmanly to wear a condom, getting women to understand they can say no, getting people in the position where testing matters. I got tested for AIDS. I know Barack got tested for AIDS. (Laughter.) There’s no shame in being tested for AIDS. It’s an important thing.

Because the fact of the matter is, in the community, in the communities engaged in denial, they’re engaged in denial, no one wants to talk about it in the community, and we do not have enough leaders, in the community and outside the community, demanding we face the reality, confront the men in the community, as well as the women, letting them know there are alternatives. (Applause.)

MR. SMILEY: Thank you.

SEN. OBAMA: Tavis, Tavis, Tavis, I just got to make clear -- I got tested with Michelle. (Laughter, applause.)

MR. SMILEY: Ah.

SEN. OBAMA: In -- when we were in Kenya in Africa. So I want to --

MR. SMILEY: All right.

SEN. OBAMA: I don’t want any confusion here about what’s going on. (Applause continues.)

MR. SMILEY: All right.

SEN. BIDEN: And I got tested to save my life, because I had 13 pints of blood transfusion.

SEN. OBAMA: I was tested with my wife.

MR. SMILEY: And I’m sure Michelle appreciates you clarifying it.

There Biden is trying to say there is no shame in getting tested, and then Obama thinks he needs to "explain," contradicting the point Biden was trying to make.

[2rth2pwr]

96. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Hopefully that's not sexist or offensive to cat lovers.

[CyberPieHole]

102. Biden has my vote...

for the time being...I'm fickle.

[youthere]

103. Hmmm...a racist that has a 100% NAACP rating.

Biden has my vote and 100% of my support.

[ecstatic]

105. He may not be racist, but his gaffes are nt