Obama threw the punch that landed

[Adelante]

Since here on DU the debate was about the prize fight, and considering the array of forces against her and the obvious media setup, Clinton rolled with most of what was thrown at her. She fumbled in convoluting her answer to the question on driver's licenses. I know what she was saying, but she didn't say it with force and clarity and brevity. I think by that point, she was pretty tired from being the punching bag, and got clumsy, and both Edwards and Obama called her on inconsistency.

Where she actually fell to the mat was on the first lady records and transparency.

Obama went in cool, elegant and sensible, and without looking like a bully:

SEN. OBAMA: Well, look, I'm glad that Hillary took the phrase "turn the page." It's a good one. But this is an example of not turning the page. We have just gone through one of the most secretive administrations in our history, and not releasing, I think, these records at the same time, Hillary, as you're making the claim that this is the basis for your experience, I think, is a problem.

Part of what we have to do is invite the American people back to participate in their government again. Part of what we need to do is rebuild trust in our government again.

And that means being open and transparent and accountable to the American people.

This was a situation with no openings for Hillary to come back. She has two choices: prove these records are not proscribed from release by the National Archives; or, publicly approve their release. Neither of those come back on Obama, which is why I say his was the sure shot.

Obama was wielding a stiletto; Edwards was using an axe. Edwards' attacks are open to all sorts of retaliatory actions, some of which will only neutralize his, as Chris Dodd has shown, but that's all that has to be done. This point alone is rife with opportunity:

And I think the American people, given this historic moment in our country's history, deserve a president of the United States that they know will tell them the truth, and won't say one thing one time and something different at a different time.

I question the netroots' apparent judgment that American voters are going to love what they love, a battering ram. I was wondering last night what the outcome will be of the sight of a line of men attacking a woman who is not attacking back. I don't know for sure one way or the other, or even if it will matter, but I still wonder. However, if Obama sticks to his own style and grace and sticks with the truth, he more than Edwards will be the effective challenger.


Transcript:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/us/politics/30debate-transcript.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

[Colobo]

1. Oh yes! Keep 'em coming!

Obama and Edwards > Clinton!

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AX10]

2. Obama is a typical politician. He promised not to..

fight dirty and now he is. :eyes:

[Tigermoose]

3. Obama was the winner last night.

I have been a Kucinich and Edwards supporter in the past, but Obama was graceful and devastating at the same time. My wife hasn't been following politics, and she watched it and was impressed by Obama. So there's one view from a "mainstream" voter.

I'm leaning towards Obama now. He can beat Hillary and any other Republican. Edwards comes across too forceful, even if he is right. The UFO thing with Kucinich was just brutal.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BootinUp]

4. Why I disagree

I just don't believe Democrats are interested in having any fodder for the opposition released right before the GE. They will question the motives of anyone who attacks her on this. On the other hand secrecy is distasteful to me so I admit to a bad taste in the mouth. I would prefer the information to have been released years ago.

[BeyondGeography]

5. How about fodder being released for US little primary deciders?

Is the entire world to be set up so as to make it safe for Hillary in the general? Are there no other considerations that even enter into question here?

[BootinUp]

6. Not sure I can add anything more to what I said.

I think this would just become a Monty Python exercise if I were to respond in a contrary manner.

[Tellurian]

9. Please! Wimpy Obama could never survive a pileon like we witnessed last night on Hillary!

Obama would get down on his knees begging to please make it stop. Look at how he handled his Gospel Tour mess? He's about as presidential as a manager at StarBucks. A company man just putting in a days work getting himself through the day..

Obama PRESIDENTIAL? I think not!

[BeyondGeography]

13. Won't happen

for the simple reason that he doesn't have the same problem your girl has: an utter inability to answer a straightforward question when any political risk is involved.

[cuke]

20. Obama wasn't very straighforward

He ducked a lot of questions starting from the first one. And no one is going to care about the archives, just as nobody cared about Dean's papers. It's only an issue on DU

[Adelante]

24. There is some difference, though

Only DU and Vermont (maybe) cared about Dean's papers. Hillary's are the nation's business and it can be made a very big issue in the GE.

[cuke]

34. Not really

IMO, people will not care about this. They can try to make an issue of it, and I wouldn't be surprised if she did, but I don't think it will work out for them

[Ethelk2044]

36. Yes, People do care about what information is in those documents

She claims being first lady gave her experience. Then put the papers up to see what you exactly did as a first lady. If not. Then your so call experience will not be counted.

[FrenchieCat]

45. I find the "Hillary Papers" to be a non issue simply because

These are papers in where she communicates with her husband....and even if he was the President, there is still a line in reference to privacy that voters respect when it comes to a man and wife.

As soon as I heard the demand from Russert, I instinctively felt that the request that these papers be released was only made to serve the purpose of instigating the right for Hillary's opponents and enemies to do another "Ken Starr" by dredging out anything and everything that might damage her candidacy within those papers.

I strongly do not believe that most voters are ready to allow such a information witch hunt.....and so that is why I believe that this will be a non-issue; it is transparent as to why there would be a call for such release.

My husband and I write emails to each other all of the time dealing with our business.......yet, there is enough "personal" stuff in there, that even with nothing to hide, it wouldn't be anything that I would want published for the whole world to see.

Additionally, when considering how the media has NOT demanded any secrets be made public from the Bush administration, it smells strongly of a double standard...something that the American people, again, will see clearly and resent.

If anything, the demand of that these papers to be opened before their time may instead backfire and give Hillary a sympathy boost as I find it difficult to believe that any husband and wife would want their communications made public, even if it is communications that could be interpreted as "public".

[BootinUp]

50. good point. n/t

[LakeSamish706]

14. The problem that I have with your candidate once again is her view on the war...

and her close relationship to Big Corporations. I don't believe that she is the right candidate for this moment in America. It seems to me that she would continue the rhetoric against Iran that the Bush Administration is engaging in, and that is not helpful in this world today.

[cuke]

23. Then don't vote for her

There were plenty of good Dems up on that stage. You can vote for any of them. Whichever one pleases you most based on the criteria that YOU choose.

I just don't know why some people think that the word "Hillary" in the OP means one should dump any and all Hillary thoughts in the thread. This thread was about the archive issue. What is it about Hillary that makes people react so reactionarily rabid?

[LakeSamish706]

27. Sorry, but I don't think my post was one bit rabid.. it was merely pointing...

out what many find objectionable about HRC...

[cuke]

32. In a thread

that has nothing to do with that.

[Tellurian]

28. lame argument..

Corporations are here to stay. It's a Global Economy. Hillary will change the current dynamics in a role reversal of master and servant. We will have an overwhelming Dem majority in both Houses and a dem president. It could be possible now, except Republicans are PIGS...they don't want to share the wealth with ordinary citizens. They want to keep the status quo at the top 1 %..The Clintons are NOT interested in being part of the status quo, unlike, welcome to my 33,000 sq ft "Compound John" Edwards and the "make me an offer" Obama.

[FlaxieB]

26. Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.

Sounds familiar? Obama knocked her off her throne and Hillary's left to pick up the pieces. Old girl was totally exposed last night What a belated birthday gift!

As the old saying goes: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on he porch". The race for the finish line has started. Is it in you, Hillary?:rofl:

[Tellurian]

30. hahaha! Obama needs to grow a set!

:rofl:

[FlaxieB]

41. Hillary needs to borrow Bill's set!!!!

:rofl:

[MNDemNY]

44. Why do you feel the need to go "incognito" to support BHO?

Just askin'.

[FlaxieB]

46. I'm confused. Please elaborate.

[MNDemNY]

47. Ok ,ethel.

[FlaxieB]

48. I noticed last night someone tried to make that claim. Where did it come from?

and who is Ethel? Please I would like to know. What is the full screen name?

[MNDemNY]

49. Inside info..........it's classified.

[FlaxieB]

51. Really? That code for someone made up an assumption.

Because they are comparing words and phrases. Old school trick. What's wrong? Chicken? Be man/woman and tell me what the specifics are for your erroneous claim. I really want to know but if you don't have the intestinal fortitude, Fuck it. I'm moving on. NEXT!

[MNDemNY]

52. What ever.. you (and others) are now known. Move on.

Technology is wonderful.

[FlaxieB]

53. Yeah, right. You're petty. thanks for the clarity. Discussion closed.

[MNDemNY]

54. Enjoy.

:evilgrin:

[MNDemNY]

56. Yes it is. Enjoy your pizza.

Bye-bye

[CyberPieHole]

58. *titter*

:evilgrin:

[MNDemNY]

55. Updated firewalls are gooood.

[flpoljunkie]

7. A youtube video of Obama speaking last night about the points you made...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K97hvOOdy_I&eurl=http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

[Bitwit1234]

8. Oh I thought this was a debate not a prize fight.

I would certainly have liked to see a person ask SENSIBLE questions than "throw punches". What a bunch of juvenile messages. No wonder this country is in a mess.

[Adelante]

10. I entirely agree

But we had what we had. I would actually like to see a similar setup against the other candidates to see how they would hold up to such an onslaught.

[hijinx87]

11. I think last night is going to turn out to be the tipping point

the primaries are probably about to get rough(er).

I readily concede that edwards and obama landed significant
shots to hillary last night. although I personally thought
it was a little unseemly to see two grown men gang up on a
woman (and it was probably unfortunate for the purposes of
television that they were on either side of her), politics
is a rough and tumble game.

I don't expect the clinton machine to take this lying down,
however. edwards and obama both have their share of weaknesses,
and I expect the gloves to come off this week.

I will regret seeing the otherwise civil tone of the primaries
thus far degrade into attack ads, but I am trying to convince
myself that it is all for the best. the nominee will have to
be practiced in taking punches and effective in responding to
attacks from the rethugs, so it's probably a good thing that
they will get some practice now.

I just hope our eventual nominee doesn't stagger into the general
election fatally wounded.

[jmp]

17. "unseemly to see two grown men gang up on a woman"

Poor poor Hillary. She's just a little woman, and all these big bullies are ganging up on her. :eyes:

America doesn't want a President with a victim complex.

[hijinx87]

21. you are misrepresenting what I said.

and I took pains to explain it as dispassionately as I
could.

[jmp]

12. Playing the damsel in distress card?

"the sight of a line of men attacking a woman"

Should they have laid their cloaks on the ground so the lady wouldn't muddy her shoes? :eyes:

Other women can stand the heat of competing on equal footing to men without pulling the damsel in distress card. Why can't Hillary?

[Adelante]

15. I think she can

I wonder about public reaction, if any.

[BootinUp]

16. Similar to the she is Shrill!! attack card, no? n/t

[jmp]

18. I wouldn't know about any shrill cards.

Maybe you should ask someone who does.

[BootinUp]

38. My point was that

unlike the OP, you seem to call out Hillary based on her sex. I don't see where Hillary has played the damsel in distress card. The OP is talking about peoples perceptions which are open to debate.

[hijinx87]

19. you never know how middle america

will respond to the whole "men attacking women" scenario. I
think it's a valid point.

we have never been here before, so how the electorate will
respond is a complete unknown.

[Adelante]

22. "we have never been here before"

Exactly.

[Mother Of Four]

35. Does no one remember...

Geraldine Ferraro? Walter Mondale's choice for VP running mate? 1984?

No, she wasn't a presidential candidate...but she was up for VP. You know...Italian immigrant father, congresswoman...etc?

[hijinx87]

37. yes, of course I remember her.

but I think a female veep candidate is a such a completely
different thing from a female presidential candidate, that
the ferraro experience can pretty much be written off as
far as being instructive in our current situation.

[Mother Of Four]

40. Gotcha...good point

I feel it was instructive as well, she may not have "paved the way" but she did help lay down the road.

:)

[jmp]

25. I only hear that nonsense from Hillarybots.

You guys act like the women's movement never happened.

Must be a DLC thing. :eyes:

[Adelante]

29. That's idiotic

I'll put my feminist credentials up against yours any fucking day.

[hijinx87]

31. you need to relax

and actually read what I wrote.

until both of those things happen, I am not even going
to attempt to discuss this with you.

[Bread and Circus]

42. how about the part in the debate where Hillary sounded like she was 2 decibels shy

of yelling?

I mean, like the whole debate.

[PollM]

43. Democratic Debate in Philadelphia - Who was least honest

"I think that our responsibility as presidential candidates is to be in 'tell the truth' mode all the time," Edwards said.

Which candidate do you believe was the least honest & least forthcoming during the Debate?
---> http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=846

.

[AtomicKitten]

57. Excellent analysis.

I agree.

[dflprincess]

59. What bothered me when Clinton said it was time to turn the page on Bush

was whether or not it meant that, if elected, her administration would turn a blind eye to the crimes committed by Bush & Company - using that tired old phrase "for the good of the country". Not unlike the way Bill let Poppy's crimes slide by.