Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

What It Is that Makes Many of Us Mad at Dean (in my opinion)

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:02 AM
Original message
What It Is that Makes Many of Us Mad at Dean (in my opinion)
I noticed some supporters of Dean can still say nice things about Clark, but most of us who support a candidate other than Dean have trouble saying nice things about him. A poll that asked who would you vote for if Clark, Kucinich and another dropped out was conspicuous in not having any votes for Dean.

Here is my take on why that is:

1. Dean has unfairly gotten much more press coverage than the others.

I realize that this is hardly Dean's fault, but it's still unfair. When I was interested in Kucinich, the big blackout happened. Kucinich had dealt with the company who caused it, First Energy, before, both when they tried to force him to privatize energy as mayor, and more recently, when he argued against letting them reopen their nuclear plant any time soon, given their violations. I wrote an op-ed about it, and appeared to know days before anyone else in the media of Bush's campaign connections to First Energy. Nevertheless, I failed to get my op-ed published anywhere but on counterpunch.org, and then weeks later in a Florida newspaper. Kucinich should have been asked to be on all of the news shows, but there was hardly a mention of him.

More recently, we all know that Clark testified at Milosevic's trial, and that the Bush administration, because they didn't want Clark getting any free publicity, didn't allow his testimony to be broadcast live. There was barely a mention that Clark was in The Hague testifying -- in fact, the Bush administration tried to make out that he'd gone there for fundraising purposes! Yet even that didn't merit news coverage. I don't believe that would have been true if it had been Dean testifying.

It's no good saying they're covering him because he's in the lead. He's always gotten the most coverage, and in polls since Clark entered the race, Clark has been close to tied with Dean in most national polls. But he has never gotten the coverage. In fact, if another candidate wants to get in the news, their best bet is to attack Dean, as that will usually garner them a headline.

So it doesn't matter that it isn't Dean's fault, no one likes to see somebody winning because of cheating, even if the cheating is being orchestrated by a third party.

2. The other thing that has had me mad at Dean has been how his campaign has misrepresented his liberalness. Again, when I was with Kucinich, there would be Dean saying that none of the candidates had voted against the Iraq war, when Kucinich had. And anyone who cared to research Dean would read that he said he supported every military action in the last 20 or so years except Iraq. Which means he must have supported all of those things under the Reagan and Bush, Sr. administrations. And if you read about his record in Vermont, there is more evidence that his performance in the past has been as a moderate who is more interested in fiscal conservatism than in social programs. It has felt very unfair that he has attracted so many people to his side by saying he is from the liberal wing of the Democratic Party, when that isn't true. Those votes were taken away from other candidates and that's wrong, unless he has had a change of heart. But he has never indicated that he has changed in his views from the time he served, so recently, as governor of Vermont.

3. This one may just be personal, but the chin pulled in and the smirk. I find all of the other candidates more personable, and perhaps would be more likely able to forgive them, as a result.

4. Finally, there is a desperation to it. I wouldn't be as mad if I thought he could win the presidency. I was disappointed when Clinton spent all of his political 'points' to muster support for NAFTA, instead of for something that Republicans weren't already chomping at the bit to do. If I really thought Dean had a chance to win the presidency, I could swallow my disappointment at no doubt more of the same -- at least the debt would improve and the extreme greed of the current administration would be no more. But the thing is, I feel certain that he can't win. No, he's not a Dukakis, he's more of a fighter, but you know what? this Republican administration is far more vicious than Dukakis's opponent was. He's a northeastern guy who went to boarding school, got out of Vietnam, with no foreign policy experience and whose time as governor will probably yield more Willie Horton ads. It won't sell. I've just seen a chart in the LA Times today that shows that white males have only voted for the Dem candidate in equal numbers with the rest of the population the first time Carter and the first time Clinton was elected. Two southerners. And now we're in the midst of a foreign policy crisis.

5. One final one, that probably only applies to a few of us. Maybe it's just getting involved in the process so early. More likely it's reading up endlessly on my guy, Clark. But perhaps the worst disappointment would be to not get to see Clark as president. Because I've never felt this way about a candidate before. I've liked and admired every Democratic candidate since I've come of voting age, but I feel like Clark will put our nation on an entirely new and wonderful track. I'm wanting to change the constitutional limit of two terms for him. The vision that has been his in all of his years of service to this country, the incredible mind that seeks out new solutions, the fact that he is actively working on a 100-year plan for our nation and our world -- oh, man, don't spoil it for me Dean!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Stop filling the need of the far-right to watch us kill each other
Stop the Madness!

We aren't going to be losing anything, so stop these attack pieces!

All 9 Will Win!

Bush '04 = Draft '05
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
85. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Chomskyite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #85
109. They're saying that but . . .
. . . they're trying to attack and destroy him NOW.

You'd think they'd sit back and watch him emerge, right?

But the ONLY candidate Bush has attacked, with ads and with public tantrums, has been Dean.

Think about that.

Just for a minute.

Doesn't it make you think . . . just maybe. . . that the Republicans might possibly be . . .

LYING again?!?!

Noooooooooooo. Couldn't be. They'd never do that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
129. Please don't be so abusive. Hard to compare any criticism with Dean's
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. He reminds me of George Bush.
Just because he puts a D in front of his name is not going to make me support Howard Dean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. Exactly my thought, too n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
121. Even if Dean wins the nomination?
???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. Ehhhh ...
"A poll that asked who would you vote for if Clark, Kucinich and another dropped out was conspicuous in not having any votes for Dean."

Maybe cuz the "another" was Dean?!?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. My... aren't you the manipulative one, CatherineD
That's some real manipulative bullshit you pulled there that A-Schwarz. found, CatherineD. Almost like you are trying to keep the fighting going here.

Great find A-Schwarz. Thank You :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lurk_no_more Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
87. deleted
Edited on Mon Dec-29-03 09:37 PM by lurk_no_more
In five days this message will self destruct!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cryofan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. LOL!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
64. Was it? Sorry then, I really didn't realize. Come on, look at the rest
of my post -- would I have sabotaged it with an inaccuracy like that which is so easy to catch on purpose? When I read that poll, I was honestly struck by the lack of Dean's name among the choices -- don't know how I missed seeing it in the title.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #64
74. Was it the Marx Brothers?
Groucho walks in carrying a bowling ball.
CHICO: What's with da bowling ball?
GROUCHO: What bowling ball?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lurk_no_more Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
86. deleted
Edited on Mon Dec-29-03 09:38 PM by lurk_no_more
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. He attacks Dems unfairly
instead of Bush. Then he whines when these misrepresenatations are pointed out and calls for unity against Bush. Then he starts it all over again. He can't differentiate between fair policy debates and unfair attacks. He's the most annoying Democratic candidate we've ever had.

And he's less of a Democrat than any of the other candidates. In many ways, he's to the right of Lieberman even.

A revolutionary run to the center!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I don't think CathrineD is the best ally to want right now, sandnsea
She intentionally massaged the quote about the poll.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. I have the power
I have the power to get ALL the facts, THINK for myself, WRITE for myself, AND take responsiblity for what I write. CatherineD can write whatever she wants, it has absolutely NO BEARING on what I THINK. Don't hound me around this board. DO NOT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Hound You? I posted first on the thread.
Am I psychic now. Did I predict you were going to post after I did on this thread. Did I then force you to post on it after I did with my mind powers?

BWA-HA-HA!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
62. are you talking about me??
sheesh...I even laughed at your crybaby pic!

windansea is a very famous beach...have a look!
http://www.sciencemeetsart.com/emese/gallery/view_album...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemLikr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
39. Do you have the power...?
...to remove that chip from your shoulder?

If others' posts have no effect on your thinking, why bother to read them or participate in this board?

Wow, this place seems so hostile and overwrought these days.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
65. how do you know my intentions? I don't lie, and I apologize for not
noticing Dean's name in the title of that post. Your characterization of my post as simply an attack on Dean, however, and somehow ammunition for conservatives, strikes me as unusually closeminded. It has no ammunition for conservatives, for one -- my complaints are that he isn't as liberal as I want him to be and that, through no fault of his own, he has been given more media coverage than the others. Your response to my post seems to be knee-jerk and ready to attack anyone who has serious problems with your candidate, without reflection.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. You got that right
"Your response to my post seems to be knee-jerk and ready to attack anyone who has serious problems with your candidate, without reflection."

Any criticism of Dean attracts the exact type of post you are describing. I guess we're forgetting that Dean is the "victim" on DU, right? :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #65
107. Don't complain about knee-jerk reactions while having them
See that green bus on my post? That's for WELLSTONE.

Do you see any candidate promotional stuff in a sig line? No.

The reason for that? I'm an UNCOMMITTED ABB.

But you make assumptions that the only person who would call someone about a blatant falsehood at the top of their post would be a campaign loyalist?

No. I just happened to be cruising through the forum trying to convince people that negative attacks will only hurt the party, when I saw a big long massively negative post that started off with a terrible distortion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #107
113. And then you negatively attacked it.
It's certainly reasonable to point out misinformation -- and I'm sorry for accidentally including it in that post -- but attacking the motivations of people without knowledge is certainly no better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
White Mountain Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. Stick a Fork in Kerry
He's done... All that's left is to mortgage his house pretending he's Kennedy's ghost.

Sad, just sad. Even the F-word can't revive this corpse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. Actually, I believe
the fork is in the good Doctor's tongue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
60. Ha! good one
I don't like Dean mainly for his liberal/not a liberal dance and weaving.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
80. Dean forked tongue....That's a dandy. Volatile but a dandy none the less.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
32. Exactly my thought, too (second time)
"He's the most annoying Democratic candidate we've ever had."
Nail on the head.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
7. What makes me mad about Dean...
whenever anything comes out about him...it's always justified...but his supporters....no one ever says....well let me check into this...cause I don't like it. I remember about Clark and the burning Flag amendment....many of Clark supporters became disenchanged with Clark...and he lost some support...

Meanwhile Dean had a similar flag stance (his is unstated however)but none of his supporters cared.

It seems like it doesn't matter what Dean does or says....he's always right...and that reminds me of the right.....they try to justify everything....even when they are not truly convinced.

So what makes me mad about Dean is that his supporters don't process information like other people......it's living to defend Dean time always.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cryofan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Wow! You nailed it!
There is absolutely no indication of information processing on their part....Almost like bots! No offense meant, but "the end justifies the means" is a perfect fit here. It's a little scary......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. I'm a robot?
Edited on Mon Dec-29-03 07:53 AM by HFishbine
Thanks. That goes a long way to endearing me towards your candidate.

Want to talk about information processing? How about Clark supporters who offer nothing other than, "But, the terrorists!" when confronted with Clark's paid lobbying activities for Acxiom to help the government further diminsh our constitutional protections by establishing surveillance dossiers on American citizens? Or, the lack of an answer for the praise he heaped on Bush and Pals at a republican fundraiser?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Why do you care about Dean's supporters?
I dislike Clark because of Clark only.
Clark's desire to end the 1st Amendment is much worse than his followers' repulsive ethos.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I'll jump in here...
and say I care about Dean supporters because I'm not sure I trust all that many of them.

I don't know what they'll do in the general election-- where it counts.

Many of Dean's positions and past actions on defense, criminal justice, the environment and others are at direct odds with mine.

(I have no interest in debating this with anyone, btw. I've seen his positions, and a number of them I just don't agree with. YMMV )

But I'll still work and vote for him in the general election, should he get the nod, although I'd be more comfortable with some of the other candidates.

I wonder about some of Dean's people, though. Too many of them don't sound like they'll be out there pulling for Clark, or Kerry, or anyone else who may get it.

I hope they prove me wrong.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Which Dean supporters are you talking about most of the ones here say
that they will support the nominee. ABB is the most important thing for all of us here and Dean supporters are no different.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. I'm worried about...
the ones that don't.

And it's not only Dean supporters, but those are the ones I seem to see more often here and in meatspace.

As I said, I would like to be proven wrong, but that will be some time next year.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
96. Then look at post #2 by skwmom.
That is not the post of someone who is ABB. Every group has those who have to hate the competition. It's just that Clark, Dean, and to a small extent Kerry seem to have attracted younger supporters than the other camps, and younger people sometimes have trouble understanding the difference between friendly competition and a brawl. Of course it could also be angry soccer mom/dad syndrome. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #96
110. It's not?
Maybe, but it just says she doesn't like Dean all that much. No rule says we have to like all of them. Pretty good idea who she won't vote for in the primary, but no idea what she'll do in the GE.

Truth is, I don't like Dean all that much either. But I'll still vote for him in November if he's on the ballot.

That's a far cry from saying if "X" doesn't get it, I'm not voting at all.

Those are the people I worry about. I can't tell them what to do, but we sure could use their support no matter who gets the nomination.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. When Did People Stop Caring About The Truth

You said "Clark's desire to end the 1st Amendment"

Clark has expressed no such desire to end the 1st Amendment.

Clark has made specific remarks about laws banning flag burning.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. Who would you recommend?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #31
44. i just want you to know that every time you ask this
i grin like a cheshire cat because i know you can't threaten to dislike my candidate like you do to others who deign to dis dean.

"Thanks. That goes a long way to endearing me towards your candidate."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. to march in lockstep
Edited on Mon Dec-29-03 08:00 AM by cheryl27
with the message.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
artr2 Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
51. Hey cheryl27
Why is it that the only time I see a post from you is bashing Dean? Do you support anyone? Why don't I see any posts from you supporting any candidates? This is not a bash, just a question?

And you might consider this a bash. I resent like hell your characteration of me as a lock step repukkk. We all know about how the right wingnuts all match in step to the drumbeat of Rush. Are you comparing me to that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
26. You're wrong - Dean supporters are always saying they don't like
particular stances he has taken on certain issues at the o-blog.

Frankly, Dean's stance about putting Bin Laden to death was one I don't agree with because I think it would inflame an already volatile situation and I have a problem in general with the death penalty.

In addition, he has views on guns that are a lot looser than I would prefer.

But in general I do like how he thinks and what he says.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
57. From the Department of Sweeping Generalizations
Are you capable of being critical of your guy?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cryofan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
9. LOL! I LIke it! Dean is no Smirking Chimp. but he is a smirking....
Edited on Mon Dec-29-03 03:33 AM by cryofan
??? something else???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
48. are you familiar with the Mad Magazine character, Dr Fonebone?
Edited on Mon Dec-29-03 10:05 AM by bearfartinthewoods
tucked in jaw, smirking grin....weird.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/9043/dm1.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
14. Clark. He just feels right. He's squishy. He has no record. He's
unthreateningly intelligent and he says he's vaguely liberal.

Meanwhile, Dean's aura is hot pink. Trust me. Nobody likes a hot pink aura.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. No record is a good thing?
You're kidding right? BTW, he does have a record , a record of unswerving support of republican administrations and ideals, that is until he found out the repugs didn't want him. Liberal? So he says but he has no record. I don't believe that you get very far in the US military by being a liberal. All we have is his word, that and two and half bucks will buy you a good cup of coffee.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
67. Then how come he voted twice for Clinton and once for Gore?
And how come he wrote a brief for the Supreme Court supporting affirmative action? Get your facts straight. And all we have on Dean is his word that he's in the left wing of the Democratic party, but his word doesn't sound that good when just a couple years ago he was in Vermont giving corporations tax breaks, cutting the red tape of environmental laws, and otherwise acting like a moderate of either party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #67
81. The fact that voting for Clinton and Gore is considered a Record....
shows us just how little of a record Clark has. First of all, election law specifies that ballots are cast secretly, so there is NO record of how Clark actually votes. All the other candidatea have real records, we can see what they've actually done. Clark is the one whose word must be taken.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #81
103. You can believe
that Clark voted for Nixon and Reagan, but not that he voted for Clinton and Gore?

Well, which votes do you think he was lying about?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #81
115. So the fact that Dean has a record in Vermont that would make a Republican
proud -- at least a moderate Republican -- doesn't require further examination?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #67
92. Uh....
...if he remembers correctly....sheesh!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
17. 6. the unceasing attempts to mau-mau other Democrats

It's just dreary and despicable, especially given Dean's lack of principles (let alone liberal commitments). But on the other end of it are evidently people who get a power rush out of it, which seems to be their raison d'etre.

The whole movement is a part of the disease, not the cure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
19. At the end of the day, 8 of our 9 candidates will NOT be the nominee.
Disappointment is understandable, and if Dean isn't the nominee, I will be disappointed; that said, I am not going to 'hold it against' whoever *is* the nominee, because it's just the way it's got to be. :shrug:

Dr. Dean has run a unique campaign, and I think many people have been taken aback at the explosive growth in his support, and are at loose ends on how to match it, or at least slow it. As regards media coverage, catherineD has it right: no one should blame Dr. Dean for that; were the situation reversed, any other campaign would be thrilled to have gotten so much exposure, and we all know that deep in our hearts.

Furthermore, Dr. Dean has never held himself out to be some uber-liberal; he has time and again described himself as a 'passionate centrist'--- one who has a mix of liberal, moderate and conservative positions. If his 'liberal stances' attract more traditional liberals, can one truly blame him for accepting or courting their support?

Thank you for you post, catherineD--- we need more like this. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Exactly, and let's hope that Lieberman is not the one that wins!
I dread the thought of a deadlocked convention and have either Lieberman or someone hand-picked by the party hacks who is not currently a candidate come out as the nominee.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
35. I will agree with you here n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
68. Thanks, padraig18. I realize that Dean has sometimes during the
campaign described himself as much more centrist, but he didn't recently make that remark about the Republican wing of the Democratic Party and I feel that he's been kind of all over the map on this. But my problem here is more, again, how he's been portrayed, and the feeling that people are supporting him out of the belief that he's more liberal and will make a real change from the more centrist neoDemocrats of recent years, when he may actually be to the right of Clinton. It doesn't feel fair for the media to inform people that he's a liberal and take away votes from the candidates who really are liberal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #68
84. that's an issue for me too.
everyone says dean will sweep out the centerists but he's a centerist so what's the point? not to mention, some of those dc centerists are holding the fort in the senate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
28. This is sad
it is sad that people can get so upset that there is a front runner who energizes people. Even if Dean is not your candidate, you should be happy there is a possibility that some democrat is getting people involved and enthusiastic. When the final nominee is chosen whether it is Dean or someone else, we all benefit.
There are several obvious mis-characterizations of Dean in your post but I can't even be bothered anymore. Enjoy your ennui.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
47.  this army of dean supporters who will wash bush out of the whitehouse
are tired eleven months before the election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
76. NOT HARDLY
eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #28
49. I am not sad about what you said.
I think it is a good thing. Dean has proven that there is a fighting spirit within the Democratic party, Thank God. I'm not sure catherine is upset about that though, I certainly don't read that into her comments.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
61. I'll tell you what's sad...
It is sad that there is a "front-runner who energizes people" (i.e. Dean, in your statement) and I'm not one of them! And yet I'm expected to fall in line behind him because of all of these other people he energizes? :wtf:

This was a good, honest post by a person who doesn't like Dean. What you call "mis-characterizations" are her own perceptions; yet some Dean supporters seem to confuse them with right-wing propaganda.

Please accept the fact that some Democrats don't like Dean, no matter how big his bandwagon is, and they are still actively interested in winning the primaries. We would *all* like our own candidates to be the frontrunner. Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Thank you eileen_d
"And yet I'm expected to fall in line behind him because of all of these other people he energizes? :wtf:" This idea he has that all will march along after other candidates drop out is wrong. The remarks over the weekend, whining about the DNC not protecting him from the truth, really showed his colors. The good doctor appears to feel he is entitled to "god-like" support from Dems as a whole. I worship none. Support three but worship none.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
29. Good points
especially on 3 = condescending, very much so. It's come to the point for us that we flip the channel whenever he's on..like we do for shrub.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
36. The Dean campaign EARNS its press coverage
If other candidates are waiting for the press to recognize a good story and come to them to cover it, then they don't know how to work the press. The Dean campaign is innovative, responsive and knows how to pitch a story. They get press coverage because they MAKE press coverage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
116. One word: Diebold.
Have you heard of it? The company making software for touch-screen voting machines?

I don't hear much about what Dean actually does. I hear a lot about what he says. And I hear more about him eating his own words.

Earning publicity. Sheesh. If it bleeds, it leads, right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaggieSwanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
123. by accepting campaign donations from AOL/Time Warner (CNN)?
I guess if that's how you define earning...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
37. Dean says anything to anybody
Then recants it later.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maxanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
38. your reasons
may work for you - but they aren't terribly logical, Catherine. I'm not sure why you bothered to make them public - except to create more discord in this area.

1. The media give Dean more coverage and it's not fair. *sighs*
This isn't Dean's fault. He has an amazing and hard working organization. Kucinich does not. I've met some of his paid staffers, and they aren't doing anything positive for Kucinich. Anyhow, you can complain about this - but even you admit it isn't Dean's fault.

So - where's the beef?

2. The Dean campaign does not misrepresent Dean's liberalism, nor does Dean. I see this accusation coming from people who are unhappy with the way their candidate of choice is doing. Saying it over and over again won't make it so.

3. Give me a break. Childish.

4. If you don't feel desperate about getting Bush out of the White House, then we aren't on the same side. What you're doing here is a sorry attempt at justifying your loathing for Howard Dean, with rather faulty logic.

5. I'm glad you believe in your candidate. It's unfortunate that so many have chosen to smear other candidates in their attempt to promote their own. In fact, you are suggesting that Dean supporters are doing that to your candidate - while you start a thread which is doing exactly the same thing - just couched in some sort of pseudo intellectual justification.


I hope you don't speak for the "many" that are "mad" at Dean. If everyone is using this sort of "logic" we might as well just vote for Bush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
72. Oh, come on. I didn't say it was Dean's fault, I said it wasn't fair.
1. If someone else arranges for you to win at a game, it doesn't mean the other players don't have a beef, even if the winner wasn't in on the fix.

2. Dean talks about coming from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party and refers to centrists as the Republican wing of the Democratic Party. That's positioning yourself as a liberal and that is how the press reports him. But his record in Vermont isn't liberal.

3. I said that was subjective. Just like I couldn't believe after the 2000 election when Bush stood there with a pimple on his face with a deer in the headlights look and Republicans called him presidential. Everyone has their own feelings -- I'm just reporting the things that affect my feelings about Dean.

4. If I weren't desperate about getting Bush out of the White House, perhaps I wouldn't mind that Dean will surely lose the Democrats the election, if he is the candidate. Come on, you weren't responding to my point on this one.

5. I have not suggested that Dean supporters are smearing anyone in this thread -- in fact, I noted specifically that Dean supporters seem more capable of generosity about other candidates than do the rest of us with respect to Dean. I was analyzing why this might be so, and showing that much of it is not directly Dean's fault, but a matter of the press. Why don't you re-read my post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DancingBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
40. Hi catherineD
Thanks for your thoughts - shared by many, despite protestations from elsewhere. You have simply realized, like many of us, that Dean is a politician and should be held accountable fo what he says - at the time he says it.

Keep at it - we'll get there!

Oh, :thumbsup: on the "chin" thing... :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
41. For what it's worth:
I have indicated several times that I disagree with Dean on several issues, at least marginally.
-I oppose the death penalty, because I don't believe it is a deterrent. However, the statistics on that are not clear. When it comes to killing cops, for example, IF a potential death penalty would be a deterrent, then I am OK with it.
- I oppose a strict "balanced budget" position, because I recognize that there are times when it is better to go a little in debt than not.

When I chose my candidate, Clark was not an option, and Dean was the best available. I do not expect to agree with ANY candidate 100% on all of the issues. At some point, you just have to get a "feel" for which candidate you trust the most to do the best job. I have not had any reason to alter my allegience to Dean.

Dean's obnoxiousness is part of the package. It may annoy some, but it certainly gets attention. I have done phone banking for Dean several times, and one of the most consistent comments I have heard is that people respect his willingness to speak his mind- even if it requires a clarification later. I think it indicates a willingness to fight in some peoples' minds. A candidate can try to win by annoying as few people as possible, but it seems like it would be hard to get many people inspired, or even just get the attention one needs to get the message out.

I read an interesting article recently that said that just as Dean was emerging as the front runner- and therefore would be attracting closer scrutiny from the press- Clark jumped in, drawing a lot of the attention at that moment, and giving Dean a bit of a "pass" for a while. Dean is certainly catching the criticism now, but he has had time to build the campaign a little more because of Clark's timing on entering the race. So in a way, Clark may be at least partly at fault (if you want to place blame) for Dean getting an easier ride than the others.

As far as us Dean supporters failing to criticize Dean here at DU- there is plenty of others willing to do that. I find very few of the criticisms worthy of attention, let alone agreement. Even with the confederate flag flap, although I recognize that the words used were hurtful to some people, the intent (which I think is clear- that poor white southerners should take a look at the Democratic party), is valid. We are NOT drinking kool-aid, we just feel like we are bombarded with criticisms with little or no merit and have to work pretty hard just to counteract those.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
43. Wow! Very good!
You keep trying there catherineD. One of these days you will be a subtle as you think you are today.

Practice, practice, practice!!

Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
45. The true reason some Dems are pissed at Dean (there is only one...)
Many campaign supporters feel they were *owed* the nomination and are angry because they were outhustled by the Dean campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Bingo!
It's not that complicated really. Are they supposed to be HAPPY that he's beating them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
69. I don't feel owed anything however I see some Dean supporters
as thinking they are now owed the nomination because he was the first to come out against the war. I'm disappointed with the arrogance that the Dean campaign has assumed of late. The "front-runner" status has gone to his campaigns collective head. There is still a lot of time before the nominee is known.

ABB in '04
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
117. Proud to be hustled, are you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
50. I'll respond to point #2
IMHO Dean's campaign didn't misrepresent his liberalness (or lack thereof). What happened was that some liberals (and all of the press) mistook his anti-Iraq war stance as a liberal pacifistic stance, which it was not. I think Dean is a "hawk" in that he believes a strong military is vital to protecting the United States. But you can still believe that and be against the Iraq war because Iraq did not present a significant threat to the United States, our allies, or anybody else. I've noticed a simplistic idea in some people's minds (exascerbated, of course, by the corporate press and Bush propaganda) that if you're against a particular military action by the US then you are against all war. But in reality the issues are far more complex than that. There is a big difference between wars of self-defense and wars of imperialistic aggression.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. Then I'll take #1, 3, 4, and 5
#1 -This seems to have two parts to it. First, that Dean has been given more media attention than the other candidates -- this is undeniably true. Second, that this attention is unfair -- this is your opinion. The unstated third part is that the unfairness in coverage is somehow suspect, but this is certainly not borne out by the evidence. Certainly in the early stages, Dean was dismissed out of hand and given no coverage in the press whatsoever, so you certainly can't say that Dean's success was the direct result of the extensive coverage. The initial interest in Dean was as a critic of the war in Iraq, in the midst of massive anti-war protests ignored by the Democratic leadership, including the intended Democratic front runners. The media attention began to grow with Dean's success in internet recruiting, then fundraising, then growing poll numbers. It should come as no surprise to anyone on this list that our media is notoriously bad at looking at issues, preferring horse race politics. Dean received attention because of the unheard of success he was having in building his campaign, and he continues to receive attention because he is now the front runner. And far from painting an overly positive picture of Dean, the media seem to latch onto his every flaw and misstep. You can certainly make the argument that the way the media covers political campaigns is flawed, and I would join you in that criticism, but I don't see anything suspect in the media's coverage of Dean.

#3 - Because you think he looks bad? Okay, I'm not going to try to convince you that Dean is the next Brad Pitt. I'll just leave it up to you to decide if you want to choose a president on that basis. So far I haven't heard many say that what they really don't like about Bush is the fact that he isn't attractive enough to be president.

#4 - This wasn't precisely a rejection of Dean as an individual, but rather the famous statement that no non-Southern Democrat will ever be president. I have no doubt that any rejection of the famous importance of the southern states will be met with evidence culled from all the presidential campaigns since the end of WWII, showing us how, without a doubt, it can never happen because it's never happened before. Of course, most of Dean's supporters don't subscribe to the "conventional wisdom" about appealing to certain key constituencies like "swing" voters or southerners as the only way to get elected... in fact, most of us are pretty damned sick of it. That's why we started supporting Dean in the first place.

#5 - You like Clark so much that you'd be disappointed if anyone else got the nod? Fair enough, I suppose. But it certainly doesn't validate your disdain for those who show the same attitude toward Dean. Basically, you dislike Dean because he is the front runner and Clark is not -- I figure I'm pretty safe ignoring that one, since I'll never change your mind about that one, but it won't do a thing to bring others onto the Clark bandwagon either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
73. A fair reply. As I said, some of my points are mostly personal, but
nevertheless are part of what goes into my feelings about Dean. I didn't say anything about Dean's supporters, so I don't think it's fair to characterize myself as having disdain for those who show the same attitude toward Dean (of wanting their candidate to win). I was just stating what goes into my critical feelings toward Dean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Fair enough
I withdraw my comments on that point. It's too easy to project general perceptions onto individuals, and I apologize if I mischaracterized your stance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
52. I love it
People who oppose Dean are so churlish that they can't at least refrain from trashing him in a thread that asks for positive comments and yet again it is everyone's fault but theirs. It is Dean's fault or Dean supporter's fault or the media's fault. I have never in my life seen people who are so incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
54. no offense
but all silly arguments

1. Dean has gotten more coverage because he has a message worth listening to and because he came up from obscurity to be the frontrunner.

2. this is completely untrue, Dean never EVER claimed to be a liberal. No Dean supporter believes he is a liberal in the vein of Dennis Kucinich.

3. I'm sorry you don't like how his face looks, but thats hardly a deteriminant of presidential ability.

4. Dean IS electable, remmeber Ronald reagan had no FP experience and was elected at a time when soviet missiles were pointed at US cities. Dean governed as a centrist, which you complained about in point 2 and mysteriously contradict in this point, which won't lead to too many "willie horton" ads. Dean is bringing NEW people into the process in this campaign, people who never voted before. Also, as you said, he is a fighter, do not underestimate that. Bush is counting on us being afraid of him to win. Dean is not afraid of him.

5. I'm glad you feel that way about Clark. Even if he doesnt win this time, it doesn't preclude the future. You should spend your time on this board sharing your enthusiasm for Clark rather than dragging the whole party down by attacking Dean.



5.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jmaier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
55. I have no trouble
saying nice things about Dean. His campaign machinery has been impressively assembled. The grassroots energy is heartening, though a bit misleading, with respect to its impact on the 2004 GE at this junction.

He has well thought out reasonable positions on most issues. He is slightly center-left which is about where I sit. I think that he doesn't wear well on some folks perhaps -- a bit tinny, strident and surprisingly thin-skinned. That's how I regard him personally which makes me wonder about his ultimate strength in the GE. Yes, I have seen him in person -- several times.

But overall, I'd be happy to vote for him.



Wes Clark. He will make an extraordinary American President.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
56. I'm not mad at Dean
I just don't think I could stand watching him on TV pointing his finger in my face, even though it would only last till November.

he's just a pouting pointing pathetic panderering politician

we can and will do better!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
58. He's the front runner
I think it is that simple. Everybody gets mad at the front runner because he is the guy their candidates are trying to beat. So, much more anger and angst is displayed when discussing this front runner. You don't see anger towards Edwards because he is down at the bottom. Why waste that anger when it can be directed to the top guy?

I think this is natural, too. I just hope this anger doesn't poison the well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #58
70. That pretty much sums it up. Still, there's some frantic kind
of vitriol going around these boards lately.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
59. I'm not mad at Dean.
I'm MORE angry at his supporters. In NH a car load of Dean supporters drove by a Clark supporter who was putting up Clark campaign signs and gave him the finger. How did he know they were Dean supporters? The car had Dean bumper stickers on it. Dean supporters were the ONLY supporters of a candidate to HECKLE a candidate during his speech at the Florida National Convention. Who was that candidate they heckled? YES! Wes Clark! Dean supporters have harassed Clark supporters on the streets of New York while they were canvasing. THAT behavior is desperate and uncalled for. NOTICE, please, who their attacks are aimed at. CLARK supporters. He's a threat to Sir Howard.

With that being said, one of the reasons I switched from Dean to Clark was seeing all of the RW, WH ass kissing talking head pundits on TV DEFENDING Dean. PRAISING DEAN. They just can't say enough nice things about him. Huh? Why are they doing that? Could it possibly be because he can't win? You bet your sweet bippy, that's the reason. Then we have all of his flip flops that started making me very nervous. Now, I just turn the channel or mute him when he's on...which is usually all day long on every frigging channel. He gets as much air time in my house as the brainless wonder does. ZERO. I just don't like him anymore and for the most part it's because of his supporters, the RW defense of him and his flip flops. I'm not "mad" at him, I just don't like him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. "I'm not "mad" at him, I just don't like him."
Me, too.

Otherwise, ABB.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #59
75. I was in the audience during Clark's speach at the Florida convention
nobody heckled him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #75
83. LOL!
Coming from a Dean supporter? I believe you. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
78. You left out a big one: SOUR GRAPES
Dean is winning, and thus threatens everyone else's favorites.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #78
101. big, plump, juicy, sour ones.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
79. For me it's because he's a major league LIAR who can't keep his stories
straight because they're always in flux.

He throws something out then backtracks. He's more CLEVER like a conartist than he is intelligent and not thoughtful at all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. Not being smart enough to be a good liar is a bad sign.
Presidents are supposed to be smart enough to remember what they said. The best ones are honest, so they don't have to remembe what they said. Dean is neither.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #88
100. Gracious, are you saying that the ability to lie well is a good sign?
"Back up the jeep, we're in a patch of mud!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #100
125. No
They are saying that it's bad to be a LIAR, and even worse to be a BAD LIAR.

Believe it or not, but there are more choices besides "good" and "bad".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
82. He claims to be gods gift to liberalism
Edited on Mon Dec-29-03 04:00 PM by corporatewhore
he is imho an oppertunistic man. Painting himself as the savior of the liberal/progressive movement when his stances on issues like the pentagon budget,gun control, death penalty,getting money from aipac,and his record of cozying up to big business and screwing the environment show other wise.I also cannot stand to hear his speeches they are angry hate filled rants
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
89. Excellent post, catherineD. Unlike Dean, you are very brave.
That's become my main worry about the guy. Should Dean be the nominee, Rove will roast him as a draft-dodging mogul master. Furthermore, who in the service wants to follow the orders of a commander-in-chief who was not willing himelf to assume the responsibilities and risks of military service?

Anyway, here's my thinking about Howard Dean, from a post that ran July 23, 2003, before I learned about his skiing all winter after dodging the draft:

DEAN: What I Don't Like about the Guy (a Hatchet Job)


Howard Dean is a good guy who speaks what's on his mind. He doesn't hold back for the Repukes and he doesn't hold back from the DEMs. And I respect him for that.

Unfortunately, that's also what I don't like. Talk is all there is. And, in the real world, people who talk real good all-too-often arent all that good at DOING. Thats not a compromise, thats reality.

When has Dean actually DONE anything to make life better for the little guy? Wasn't a near-universal medical insurance program for the residents of Vermont already there when he took over as governor?

From what he's said: He sees it as a best-of compromise of Medicaid and Medicare, with the state allowed to use the money from Washington anyway that seens fit. Great. Try doing that in a city with a population larger than the state of Vermont Detroit, say.

What worked in Vermont wouldnt work in Detroit because Washington doesnt send Detroit enough money to cover everybody who needs it. What happens then? Sorry, no money? We've got to be fiscally conservative, after all.

OK. How about education for the poor and welfare reform success? There's not much of either in Vermont, but what there is can be solved if we compromise on the backs of those who most need the help the children of "Liberals like Marian Wright Edelman." Again, humanitarian concerns demand some compromise, but not when it comes to fiscal responsibility.

No explanation or heart needed there, evidently. Did I mention before he was a doctor, Dean was a stockbroker like his dad and grandfather before him? So he has DONE a LOT with his life to help others sorry to carry over his political works onto his truly remarkable career. But this is about politics and America needs the best politician it can muster ASAFP.

When Turd Russert interviewed him live a month ago, Dean answered "I don't know the answer to that, and explained why he didnt know and who will know. Sure, he talked about the material he knew, but the stuff dealing with national defense and international affairs, he could only guess close.

Close doesn't cut it in 2004 America. Theres no way Americans will compromise their safety in an ever-more dangerous world. And in domestic affairs, they want a candidate who knows more than just what worked in a state smaller than Detroit. The president has to know what is going on from Day One look whats happened to America with the idiot-in-charge weve got now. We can't afford more on-the-job training.

So that leads me back to the original concern: What has Dean done? The answers to many questions may be found by historians in 2013. You see, the good doctor ordered his gubernatorial papers sealed for 10 years.

Originally, Dean tried to get the papers he accumulated in his 11 years as Vermont governor sealed for 20 years, but had to compromise. Theres that word, again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

BTW: You can support Clark, Kucinich, or my horse, Kerry, and I'd still be proud of your bravery. A hearty welcome to DU, catherineD!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #89
99. POOP
Do you ever get another tune?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
90. I am not mad at Howard Dean.
He seems to have unearthed a fresh vitality in the Democratic Party for which we should all be grateful. If I am mad at anyone, it is the Democratic faithful who seem to be swept away by a hatred for President Bush and see Governor Dean as a mouthpiece for that hatred without realizing that in a general election it is more important for a candidate to articulate solutions then to identify problems.

Congressman Dennis Kucinich, Reverend Al Sharpton and Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun are the only candidates (in my opinion) to present real progressive solutions to the multitude of problems we face in America. These 3 truly Democratic candidates are the real voices of progressive values of peace, racial and gender equality, environmental justice and fair trade. Yet the masses of Democrats give them scant attention and even fewer votes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #90
93. my thoughts exactly
and welcome to du :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cryofan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. Exactly! And WHY do they not give DK his due consideration?
I think it is because the elite media outlets labeled him early on as a sure loser and longshot. The rest of the media went along. I think it is because Kucinich's politics would lead to an increase in taxes for the upper income brackets.

It would be very interesting to go back in time in this campaign and trace the development of the elite media depiction of the candidates. Then put that out as report on the Web, or use it in a book....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. I'm not convinced of that.
<I think it is because the elite media outlets labeled him early on as a sure loser>

The media ignores Kucinich, Sharpton and Moseley Braun because the super majority of Democrats ignore them. If the media sees them as losers it is because the Democrats see them as losers. It is sad that so many Democrats do not have the courage to support those whose principles truly reflect their progressive values. If either of these 3 garnered even 10% of Democratic support the media would gush over them to no end and we would finally have a national debate on the issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
91. I've really had it with the way Dean supporters are attacking Clark.
This MUST be a reflection on the character of Dean, who after all gives them their marching orders. No other Dem candidate supporters on DU react in such inflammatory and abrasive a manner. I AM TOTALLY DISGUSTED WITH THE DEAN MOVEMENT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
95. The reason Dean is getting all of the media coverage
is because all of the other Democratic candidates can't stop talking about him. *THEY* are the ones who are forcing the media to talk about Dean, because they aren't giving the media anything else to talk about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #95
128. Baloney. The media keeps asking THEM about Dean and have been
since the spring.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
97. Thanks for your honest piece.
Now a few responses to it, from an admittedly staunch Dean supporter.

1. You well note that it's hardly fair to blame Dean for the attention he gets in the press, at the expense of the other candidates. But let me ask you, isn't it entirely possible that this is because he IS the most interesting news story in this campaign so far?

Think of it. A guy from a tiny Northeast state who was little more than a dot on the political topo-map a few months ago. And now, he's the friggin frontrunner in a nine way race from the Democratic side. He has energized a group that is in the process of revolutionizing, yes revolutionizing the way politics are done. He has resuscitated whole throngs of disenchanted, disenfranchised voters and got them not only active in the process again, but driven like their on a mission. This is practically unheard of in a country that was experiencing a drop in the voting public that was hovering around the 30 percentile. His fundraising is damn near a phenomenon in and of itself.

Is this Howard Dean's fault, or is this truly a news story? If you were the editor in chief of a major news organ, would you follow a story like this or would you prefer the usual dry and dull meanderings of typical Washington insider types rising to take their door prize?


2. What exactly is a "liberal" these days anyway? I could lay down some basics - pro civil rights, pro environment, pro labor etc...but any of the candidates could claim allegiance to such things and even show a record of support. The complaint you have against Dean's degree of liberalness is simply that - a degree. And a subjective one at that. Did you know that there were "liberals" that voted for Ronald Reagan? And believe me they would take you to the matt claiming they were liberal, too! Succinctly, Dean is as liberal as your tastes allow. If you don't like the man, he's not liberal at all. If you do, he's as liberal as the rest of the crop.

Look, I'm a Red...a surprising ally of Dean. But I see enough in the guy, his past actions and the fear he seems to put into the right people to see that he is the only one that has the prospect of forwarding the things I want to see become real. He is a against imperialist wars. He protects the working citizen. He wants to throw out the bosses (ask my fellow Wobblies what we think of "bossism"!) in both the currently broken Democratic Party AND the national government. Liberal? As liberal as he needs to be!

3. His looks. Well, that's a subjective thing. I don't think being gorgeous is what matters to me at this point. If it were I'd be voting for Isabella Rosilini.

4. Winnability. Let me ask you something. If you don't think Dean can win, what makes you think a candidate with a fraction of Dean's support and money can win? This just makes no sense. Yes, I'm aware of polls that say otherwise, but polls change like the wind. The facts on the ground are that there is one person in the Democratic race right now that HAS the most support and HAS the most funds and HAS the best fundraising machine. That person is Howard Dean.

Hey I feel for John Kerry, I wouldn't want to have to hock my house for my campaign aspirations either. But seriously - what does that tell you?

5. It's wonderful to see you so devoted to your candidate, but open your field of vision for a second. There is something more important than satisfying your desire to see Clark take the oath of office. That something is the welfare of this nation, and principles of democracy that we are supposed to hold. I'm convinced that people don't make these great changes when they are needed, but Nature pushes forth the person who needs to lead the changes Nature has already put in motion. That person may not be a strapping General who snaps his gum like a playah. That person just MIGHT be a short little funny looking guy from Vermont.

Would YOU have written the history book which portrayed the President who brought us through the most widescale world war in our nation's history, WWII, as a guy in a wheelchair? Yet, it was.


Root for your man. But please, help educate your fellows to see that an ongoing stream of attacks against the other contenders is making no new friends and plenty of new enemies. You talk about anger as a factor in this election? Hopefully now you can see it comes from causes you might not have considered.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #97
114. There are now posts here full of capital letters and swearing.
Screaming and swearing.

I've never seen anything like it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #97
118. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'll have a look at Dean's policies --
they're at deanforamerica, right? If you'll have a look at clark's policy papers -- they're at clark04.com. I'm concerned that your reference to Clark as a "strapping General who snaps his gum like a playah" indicates you haven't really given him the attention he deserves. And the best way to find out about any of the candidates is to get away from this board and go to their sites. Oh, and Clark's raising 10 million this quarter, which with matching funds may end up giving him more than Dean for the quarter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aldian159 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
102. Great post
I'm in the same boat, but I'm also a little frustrated because the race was Kerry's to win and he dropped the ball. (Assuming he doesn't win, lots of time till IA).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shivaji Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
104. Very simple answer.....Dean is beating the pants off other 8 candidates
Jealousy, panic, ego etc are involved in supporters of other candidates getting angry at Dean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lil Kim Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
105. I don't like
the way he rolls his sleeves all the way above his elbow. It has this phony child-of-privilege-trying-to-look-working-class way about it, just like his pickup trucks and confederate flags comment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #105
112. Tell me SOMETHING about Dean that's NOT an ACT
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
106. in a word, dean appears arrogant.
regardless of whether he is right or not, and usually he is right, dean is a typical smart-ass know-it-all who rubs people the wrong way.

i say this as one who has donated to his and the american people's cause, but he turns off a lot of people by his attitude.

its not that he is is just smart, albeit he is that, but that he acts like a jerk all too often.

i'll definity vote for the guy, but i wish he would not act so much like his shit don't stink.

when i have to spend more time convincing people that dean is not really a jerk than i do defending his policy positions, then i know the man has a problem reaching out to people who are his natural allies but are put off by his personality. and anyone who thinks this is not going to be a big problem for dean doesn't understand politics.

i'm not asking the doc to start wearing a hairshirt held together by the threads of humility, but he has got to realize soon that the way he presents himself to people is going to have to change if he wants to be president.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chomskyite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #106
111. Let me . . .
. . . respectfully ask that you vote based on the issues and not based on what your emotional response is alone.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #111
122. did you actually read what i said? "i'll definity vote for the guy, "
and that he is usually right on the issues.

i posted my remarks fully expecting that dean operatives are on DU, read posts like mine and that somehow my observations about the dean campaign might be of value to them in judging the pulse of the voters and how to act towards them.

rather than waste your time attempting to convince me to use a rational methodology i already employed and take a position i arrived at long ago, try to understand the difficulty facing dean in a general election campaign where he and many of his more arrogant supporters project a know-it-all attitude.

your comments towards me were an absurd attempt to preach to the choir and indicated that you misread or failed to understand my own comments.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chomskyite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
108. Pretty shallow analysis
"1. Dean has unfairly gotten much more press coverage than the others. I realize that this is hardly Dean's fault, but it's still unfair."

Then why list it as a factor at all, let alone number one in your list? Aren't you interested in the fact that Dean would spend $20 billion instead of $2 billion on securing the Soviet Union's 7,000 missiles, keeping them from being sold to bin Laden? Or do the issues just not matter to you?

"The other thing that has had me mad at Dean has been how his campaign has misrepresented his liberalness." This is an out and out untruth, of course. Have you got any quotes in which is saying he's a fiscal liberal? The only thing he says about liberalism is that he doesn't like that it's become a dirty word and that those who say he's a liberal ignore his fiscal record in Vermont.


"but the chin pulled in and the smirk." How do you like W's speaking style? And if this was 1948, would you vote for Thomas Dewey? He had a neat mustache and Truman wore those granny glasses.

"but you know what? this Republican administration is far more vicious than Dukakis's opponent was." And Dean will be the best-financed, most aggressive Democratic nominee in history. He'll be finished with primaries by early February and he'll be relentlessly eroding Bush's support from that point on. I like Dean's odds, there. He's never lost an election.

"But perhaps the worst disappointment would be to not get to see Clark as president. "

Would you settle for Secretary of Defense or State? Or maybe CIA director?





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #108
119. The analysis wasn't meant to be of his policies, of course. It was
meant to be of why I have so many negative feelings toward Dean. And I do mention his policies -- they're not as liberal as I'd like them to be. But they're miles more liberal than Bush, of course, and I will vote for whoever the Democrats nominate. But if it's Dean, I think my voting for him won't be enough to win him the presidency.

Maybe Dean could be CIA director in a Clark Administration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phillybri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
120. My problem: The Bombthrower should NOT be asking for protection...
Dean has slung a lot of shit at other candidates. His asking for help from Terry McAuliffe now makes him look like a friggin pussy...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaggieSwanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. right on! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
126. Dean reminds me of my sister
She says shitty stuff, lies, or is generally pissy with people, and then when someone reacts, she portrays herself as the victim, "Why is everyone picking on me?"

The reason Dean is getting coverage is that he is saying things that are off-the-wall (part A of coverage) and then has to go to the retraction or clarification (part B of coverage) and then we hear the reaction from other candidates (parts C,D,E... of coverage).

I have seen VERY little from Dean that gives me hope for the future of my country. He doesn't inspire me (of course, neither does my sister).

When I see Clark, when I hear him answer people's questions at town hall meetings, I see that the future of our country can be bright and uplifting - that we can once again become a respected member of the world community, and that we can re-establish honor in the White House and the role of the presidency.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. Seen several candidates. None less substantial than Dean. Matters not!

Dean's audience is not that interested in substance.

Many have their own deep political phylosophy and see Dean as
a channel.

Many others are extremely young and immature in politics and
would not know the difference.

Many are just happy for any candidate who supported the anti-war protests. Anyone who jumped in front of the movement would get support. I just feel bad that Kucinich seems sincere and got no
press, while Dean appear insincere to me but the powers that be decided he was IT.

I wonder why?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Jul 23rd 2014, 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC