Do you want UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS to get driver licenses?

[Colobo]

Poll question: Do you want UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS to get driver licenses?

Do you think that's a good idea?

I think it's better to reform immigration laws first and enforce the ones we have in the meantime.

[dsc]

1. If they are here, they will drive

if they drive they will get in accidents. If they don't have insurance then I pay more. Get licences and insurance.

[YvonneCa]

8. They are here, and they do drive...

...some with no drivers' ed, who don't know state law and many who are unable to read traffic signs that are in English. If an accident occurs that they are responsible for causing, often the other driver is left holding the bag, because they don't have insurance. Licensing everyone...with a requirement to take driving classes, learn the rules of the road and obtain insurance prior to licensing...is a safety issue.

[dsc]

12. that is why I said get licences and insurance.

[YvonneCa]

18. I know...

...I was agreeing with you. :)

[YvonneCa]

9. and...

...by the way...I hate this 'they' and 'them' stuff...:7

[LanternWaste]

72. best thing I'd read on DU all day

I told someone earlier that a post they made was the best thing I'd read on DU all day-- until now. Now she's relegated to second place and you get the prize!

A very enlightening method of perceiving nationalism/regionalism/racism-- the more the words "they" and "us" are used, begin to back away...

:hi:

[Romulox]

75. Can I have your address? I want to share some of your things!

And none of this "me" and "mine" stuff! :eyes:

[backscatter712]

46. Exactly right.

The ability and licensing to drive a car should be divorced from immigration status.

Illegal immigrants are going to drive, whether we like it or not, and attempting to disenfranchise them by preventing them from getting licenses will backfire and affect everyone's safety and insurance costs.

So I say we let them get driver's licenses and insurance, even if they're here illegally, that way at least they can be pressured into getting tested and licensed before driving, and getting insurance so that people involved in accidents don't have to eat the costs of uninsured motorists.

That doesn't mean they're citizens, just that they've been tested and are deemed by the state to be capable of operating a motor vehicle.

[Phx_Dem]

129. The thing is

that most if not all countries issue international licenses, so there is no need for a US one. An IT license can be used exactly like a US license.

[Hippo_Tron]

97. Damnit, stop making sense

[ImpeechBush]

134. Should the same logic apply to drunk drivers then? 12 year olds?

Those who fail to meet minimal visual acuity standards?

Or does the "they are here therefore they will drive" rationale apply only to those here illegally?

[napi21]

2. Absolutely NOT! And to alow them to get a voter ID during the process

is WORSE! I used to really respect Spitzer when he was the DA. He put a lot of criminal white collar crooks in prison, and I LOVE THAT! What in the world has happened to him since he became Governor????

[Blaze Diem]

3. What's dear and sacred about being a US Citizen anymore?

Its being rendered useless.
OH well, fu*k it. The pride of being a US citizen belongs in the past.
Had my ancestors settled 200 miles farther north, I'd be a proud Canadian.

[napi21]

5. Maybe not much, but I'm not willing to give any more of it away!

I worked too many years with people who had green cards, and the only difference between their rights and mine ws that they couldn't vote. It didn't seem to matter that much to them, but it did and still does to me!

[Blaze Diem]

16. I truely hope Spitzer does not get the go-ahead on this. For many reasons.

But when people in Spitzer's position boldly devalue the status of US Citizen in such a manner, is it a pipe dream that its value can ever be restored. I want to see immigrants from around the world come here because they want to become citizens, not exploit what they can via Bush, Spitzer, and Corp self serving policies.. One exploits the other and in the middle are the US Citizens, left to wonder what has happened to their Country.

[cuke]

51. Getting a driver's license "devalues citizenship"???

Giving them a driver's license "exploits" americans?

Are you high?

[xxqqqzme]

54. how in the worl does driving legally devalue citizenship?

That's a new one. Having been involved in a very serious accident, which BTW, out of the 5 cars involved in our portion of a 22 car pileup, we were the ONLY legal car involved. The driver that caused my disability had no insurance and was driving w/ expired license & tags. And he was a US citizen as were all the drivers invilved. Fail to see the distinction.

[YvonneCa]

11. Citizenship isn't about pride...

...it's about responsibility.

[Blaze Diem]

28. Well I recall being ever proud to be a citizen of the great USA.

I believe there was great pride in the generations who built this country to be that great & admired place.
Its a free-for-all at this point. Given away, sold off, outsourced, stolen... I don't see the past two elections as being in our control. I do believe the Bushcons will do the same to the 08 election. Manipulated, controlled, preplanned. I wonder what voice we really have left.
I have heard endless outing of Bush's dirty deeds since his appointment in 2000. On DU alone, we have continuously brought to light the illegalities of his policies.
Yet we have a dem congress that continues to defy all sensibility.
We can almost predict what they will do to confront Bush's requests.

I do not see the Bushcons giving up their power in 08 because the Constitution says they must. They operate by their own rules.
Eroding of civil rights and devaluing of the status of US citizenship, only gives Bush and his government wet dream of a New World Order more power.
He has gradually changed the face of the USA.
In order to do so, his policies have to take the power of the people out of "we the people".

Just how I see the big picture.
I am proud to be a responsible US citizen, yes, of course. But I doubt it means the same to those who cheer on Spitzer's promise. Trade off for a vote I presume.

I hope with all my born-in-the-USA heart & soul that I am proven wrong. This thing with Spitzer has just devalued the US citizenship one more notch.

[YvonneCa]

47. I agree with a lot that you say...

...in fact, most of what you say about the Bush Administration. It just seems like a lot of people are looking to blame someone and often illegal immigrants become the scapegoat.

We need to fix the immigration problem...I'm all for that. And I'm proud to be a citizen, too...I just wish more of us would get involved in voting and working to fix our country's problems, instead of watching 'American Idol' or other mindless entertainment all the time. That's why I said citizenship is about responsibility. I don't think we'd even have Bush if citizens had been participating in our democracy in 2000 and 2004.

My difference here is that...living in S. California...my reality is the streets and freeways can be dangerous if drivers are inexperienced, drunk, or unaware of our laws. We have MADD working on the drinking problem. Changes are happening in licensing processes for our children, age 16 - 18. I don't believe in rounding up and sending 12 million people to Mexico.( How do I tell who they are? Appearance? Surname? Should I break up families in the process, if some are legal US citizens?) But somehow these drivers need to be off the streets, or learn about our laws so that we are all going by the same rules. Solutions?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

69. Great statement

"Eroding of civil rights and devaluing of the status of US citizenship, only gives Bush and his government wet dream of a New World Order more power.
He has gradually changed the face of the USA.
In order to do so, his policies have to take the power of the people out of "we the people".

I happen to agree with that. We're soon going to be one big North/South American union. Giving rights to illegal immigrants and taking away our rights are good conditioning tools for big change coming when we're all just surfs making six bucks an hour.

[napi21]

34. You're right. Responsibility includes NOT BREAKING OUR LAWS!

I sympathize with the people in third world countries who are trying to make a better life, but I don't want anyone making that better life by breaking the laws of a country to do it!

[cuke]

52. That is the biggest load of bs I've seen in a while

Funny how "breaking the law" is good enough reason to deny an immigrant a driver's license but you never hear them say that anyone who breaks the law (by, let's say, speeding) should have their license revoked

And Democrats are fighting to get convicts their right to vote back

[CTLawGuy]

81. do you believe there should be no immigration laws?

NT

[cuke]

99. I'll make you a deal

Address my points, and I'll address yours

[CTLawGuy]

122. ok

illegal immigrants should be denied drivers licenses not simply because they broke the law, but because they broke the law that governs whether they can LEGALLY BE HERE. If you can't legally be here, having a drivers license FROM HERE doesn't make sense.

That logic doesn't compel the result that anyone who speeds should have their license revoked, since the crux of the denial of the license comes not from the "seriousness" of the immigration offense, but the nature of that offense (i.e. being present without authorization).

I also am against criminal disenfranchisement. If you are a US citizen you should have the right to vote no matter what. Again the nature of the crime is different.

[cuke]

125. Thanks

I don't see why there should be some kind of special punishment (ie denying DL's) for immigration violations. You can say that it "doesn't make sense" to give them DL's, but I can just as easily say that it doesn't make sense to allow a speeder or a murderer to drive. I could, as you did, go on to say "The crux of the denial comes not from the seriousness of the offense, but the nature of that offense (ie not obeying driving laws)"

[CTLawGuy]

126. the continued PRESENCE of someone here illegally is a

continuing offense. That's what I mean by nature of offense. By definition, to use a driver's license in America they would need to remain in American which they have no legal right to do.

Now, what do you think of immigration laws?

[LanternWaste]

73. It's hard for me to get worked up about, or find pride in

It's hard for me to get worked up about, or find pride in an accident of birth.

[Blaze Diem]

4. ..

self delete

[Bluebear]

6. yeah god forbid they get auto insurance, which you need a license to get

[zalinda]

7. This is also a way to keep track of them.

Use some common sense, even if they were just here on a student visa and stayed, you'd want them to obey the laws. Knowing that they know the rules, while they drive protects everyone on the road. And besides getting a license let's law enforcement know where they are if there is a crime, that they could be involved with.

They are not taking away your right to drive, but making you safer. And besides, how many illegals do you think will really step forward and get a license? Please calm down.

zalinda

[iverglas]

50. if you live in a jurisdiction

that allows people to vote based on possession of a driver's licence, you really ought to do something about it.

A driver's licence is generally accepted as proof of RESIDENCE (since people cannot obtain the licence without being resident, and have a legal obligation to report address changes to the issuing authority).

It is not, anywhere that I know of, proof of citizenship.

For one thing, driver's licences are issued by individual states in the US (and provinces in Canada, e.g.), which have no authority over citizenship.

One does not need to have the citizenship of a country to get a driver's licence there. If I were living in New York on a work visa of some sort, I could get a driver's licence there because I would have legal residence there. Ditto if I were living there on a green card.

In neither case would I be entitled to vote, because I would not be a citizen. And anyone who took my driver's licence as proof of citizenship would be a moron.

Your insinuation is just a nasty smelly red herring, thrown into the pot to stir it up. If you have an argument against issuing driver's licences to illegal residents, you should stick to making it.

[backscatter712]

53. Having a driver's license does not mean you're eligible to vote.

As stated, this is a public safety issue - undocumented immigrants are going to drive, so if they're going to be hurtling around in 2,000 lb of glass and steel, they should be tested and licensed to make sure they can do so safely, and make sure they have access to auto insurance so they and bystanders are covered in case of accidents.

I'm tempted to suggest that licenses for undocumented immigrants have "Ineligible to vote" printed on them, but I'm wary of the Scarlet Letter effect.

[ginchinchili]

10. Hey, they're illegal and most Americans are not sympathic.

We are a Democracy and the people, a good majority, don't think they should be rewarded for breaking the law when the rest of us are fined or go to jail.

[YvonneCa]

14. It's not about rewarding anyone...

...it's about safety for all...something valued in a democracy.

[Colobo]

17. Let's enforce our laws.

[YvonneCa]

21. All ...

...of them?

[cuke]

56. Let's change the laws

that are immoral.

Denying an immigrant a driver's license is immoral

[rucky]

13. If they pass a driving test...

who the fuck cares what country they're from? How does this affect the public good?

[napi21]

35. I don't care what country they're from, but they DO need some

legal papers to be here. You don't have a citizen to get a DL! Just what part of ILLEGAL don't you understand?

[cuke]

57. The part where rapists and murderers can get a license

since you're so worked up over lawbreakers, do you think anyone who speeds (speeding is ILLEGAL) should have their license revoked?

[rucky]

98. I don't understand what driving has to do with immigration. n/t

[cuke]

100. Neither do they

but they'll continue to whine about "rule of law" and the "priviliges of citizenship"

[Sapphocrat]

15. Biased, slanted, dehumanizing subject line.

Do you call children born out of wedlock "illegitimates," too?

[Colobo]

19. Apples and oranges.

People who come here illegally are illegal aliens. That's not dehumanizing. That's the law.

[YvonneCa]

20. Are you aware that some were brought...

...to the US as children, with no choice in the matter?

[Colobo]

26. Sí, eso lo sé muy bien. I'm Hispanic, just in case some people

think I'm some sort of hater of the Hispanic community.

[YvonneCa]

43. I don't think you're a hater...

...I just wonder about your solutions to a huge problem.

[napi21]

38. Yes, and some of us have to pay a price for the errors of our parents!

It doesn't matter to me. Go back to your home country and do what is necessary to legally gain access to the US if that's what you still wish to do.

All of us are sons & daughters of our parents, and some of us get lucky and have advantages, and some of us don't. Some inherit lots of money, and some inherit big problems. That's just the way it is.

[cuke]

58. IOW, you got yours

everybody elses problem is every one elses problem

[Sapphocrat]

22. That's all I need to know.

You answered exactly as I expected you would.

[EffieBlack]

39. yes - they are illegal aliens, not "illegals."

Calling them "illegals" IS dehumanizing.

Illegal aliens are not the only people in the country who break the laws. I'll bet you have broken one or two in your life. I know I have. But for some reason, they are the only people in this country who are called "illegals" - the noun, not the adjective while everyone else in this country who breaks the laws are given the courtesy and dignity of being called people or men or women or construction workers or teachers or children.

Calling undocumented people "illegals" is intended to label and dehumanize them - it's really sad that so many Democrats, who should know better, are falling in with the crowd (the same people, by the way, who refer to the "Democrat Party.")

[cuke]

59. No, they are 'undocumented aliens"

Illegal aliens is a right wing phrase

[EffieBlack]

131. You're absolutely right.

[napi21]

96. I disagree! People who steal are called crooks , criminals, felons,

and a host of other things that are applied to many. You think it's dehumanizing to be called an illegal? Would you prefer I call them criminals?

Yes I have broken the law a few times myself. I have one speeding ticket, and one parking ticket. I am a traffic criminal. You can call me what ever you want. The name illegal is simply a shortened version of the two word name "illegal alien". We shorten phrases all the time. You're making a mountain out of nothing.

[cuke]

104. You may call them whatever you wish

but the proper term is "Undocumented Alien". "Illegal immigrant" and specially "illegals", are right wing phrases

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. I prefer calling them

human beings.

[cuke]

111. Me too, but sometimes I refer to them as "undocumented", which is the proper term

You will never see me use a right-wing phrase to describe anyone

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. No Human Being is Illegal

I have that button and wear it frequently.

[LanternWaste]

82. People who come here are people.

People who come here are people. People who go there are people. People are people. Everything else is just a feel-good label.

[Skittles]

23. I detected that too Sapphocrat

it's right up there with "those people"

[Evil Librarian]

24. I really need more info to vote: "illegals" is a plural of an adjective.

English adjectives are not declined for number. Witness "one fat cat" and not "two fats cats."

By the way, if you refer to "undocumented residents in the USA," I don't give a hoot in hell what their status with la Migra is, rather their ability to drive.

Also, being an undocumented resident in most places is a "paperwork problem" and not a crime, per se. One can convincingly argue that one was out for a walk in the desert or taking a swim off Brownsville and accidentally wandered into the US and never noticed that it wasn't Mexico . . . the same goes for taking a canoe trip off Vancouver Island or on Lake Erie and then claiming, "You mean this isn't B.C./Ontario? I did notice the money was all one size and a little too green now that you mention it. . ."

[SaveElmer]

25. Yes...no use burying our head in the sand...

They are here, they are going to be driving anyway...this way they get insurance and some assurance they know how to drive...

Simply denying them any and all services isn't going to make the problem go away...we simply are not going to deport 12 million people...the resources required to do so would be staggering

We need to strengthen the punishment for hiring illegals to where it truly hurts. Employers are going to have to take an active part in determining the legal status of those they employ. Right now all anyone has to do is show two forms of id which can be easily forged. The employer is not obligated to check their authenticity.

We need to strengthen border control...and apply punishment to countries that do nothing to stem the tide of people coming from their country...

We need to reorient the way we deal with these countries economically so that people won't be tempted to come here in the first place. The exploitation of these folks buy their own countries, both government and business, as well as the complicity of large American corporations is what drives these people here..

And last, for the people that arrived here before the implementation of these measures...which must happen first...amnesty should be given.. it is the least expensive and most effective way to deal with those already here...get them in the legal work force so they can pay taxes and reduce the exploitation they are subject to now...as they are they are a drain on already strained local services.

[beaconess]

27. People are not "illegals"

Some people are here illegally (which is pretty interesting since many of these people are directly descended from the people from whom our "founding fathers" stole a good chunk of the USA.) They are not themselves "illegal" any more than you or I are "illegals" because we park in No Parking zones, exceed the speed limit or carry onto the plane a bottle containing more than 3 oz. of liquid.

Please don't adopt the right-wing demagogues labels.

[Blaze Diem]

30. I do believe you know what we refer to when we say "illegals".

Those people who come to the USA with no desire nor intent to become citizens.
Illegal residents of a Nation.
It is why the status of US Citizenship has been devalued in the Bush admin.
Removing the value & thus the power of the US citizen, weakens the power of the US Constitution.
Exactly what Bush wants.

You may pick apart a posters opinion word for word but the original message still remains.

Moving on to another topic. Later.

[cuke]

60. And I know what they mean when they say "Stay the Course"

but you won't see me repeating it

[Colobo]

29. The headline has been "fixed"

Better now?

[williesgirl]

31. If someone is "undocumented", how does he prove who he says he is for the name on the license?

You can pick any name, which will only make identity theft a bigger problem. Plus, anywhere I've been insured in this country, you need a Soc Sec # to get insurance. So now are we also supposed to issue the "undocumented" social security cards and numbers in whatever name they ask for?

This is all so much bullshit. Just giving them a license doesn't mean they'll get insurance. You can have one without the other and you must own a car to get insurance anyway. So one can buy a $500 deathtrap car and in VA at least, if you don't have insurance, you need to post a $500 bond. But that sure as hell isn't going to cover damages and possible injury to others.

The N. VA area is rife with horror stories about the "undocumented" causing accidents, having no license or insurance, and no fixed address to catch up with them when you need to. When they do give you an address, it's fake as well as fake phone numbers.

I for one am sick of them ruining our neighborhoods with public urination, overfilled houses that are never kept up or cleaned, cars parked on lawns and taking up every once available spot on street parking, hooting and frightening anyone trying to grocery shop or God forbid, stop in a 7-11 for anything. Grown men hanging out in gangs of any nationality is frightening.

Illegal is just that - illegal. Call them undocumented all you want, but they are still in this country illegally. If we don't stop giving away the store, we'll never lower the incentive to just keep crossing our borders or overstaying visas.

Flame away!

[Blaze Diem]

32. Didn't need to fix it any more than Stark needed to apologize.

I oftrn see some posters settle on specific trivialities when they no longer have an argument.
Besides, it appears they have been out voted.
So, has LaCrazy found a new home for their convention yet?
One free from those who oppose their support of illegal activity in the USA?
Good Luck to that, maybe they'll have to have it in Mexico.
yawn..same sh.. different day.

[iverglas]

55. "Flame away!"

Wouldn't waste the oxygen.

Not that calling your screed what it so obviously is would fit within any definition of "flaming" I'm familiar with.

[superduperfarleft]

124. Wow.

I for one am sick of them ruining our neighborhoods with public urination, overfilled houses that are never kept up or cleaned, cars parked on lawns and taking up every once available spot on street parking, hooting and frightening anyone trying to grocery shop or God forbid, stop in a 7-11 for anything. Grown men hanging out in gangs of any nationality is frightening.

Anyone else want to handle this or do I need to do it?

[incapsulated]

33. No.

The argument that this will make people get insured isn't backed up by any real statistics.

I really don't think we should be giving people here illegally the kind of legal documentation reserved for those here within the law.

But this is New York and they don't really care about the issue. It's almost an Amnesty State.

[cuke]

62. Not true

Driver's licenses are not "legal documentation reserved for those here within the law" Plenty of undocumented residents have driver's licenses

[ecstatic]

36. Sure! I'm all for stolen identities. In fact, I can't wait for someone to steal mine

Because the paperwork required to get a license will be authentic, of course. :sarcasm:

[CK_John]

37. I wish we could get back to a time when a driver lic was to verify you

understood the rules of the road and could safely operate a motor vehicle, and not be a national identity card.

[Fresh_Start]

40. Of course not. If they don't get a license than

they won't be driving any vehicles. Because obeying driver licensing regulations will be important to them even though being an illegal immigrant and an undocumented worker won't bother them at all.

[LanternWaste]

85. Unlike the God-fearin' Murikans...

Unlike the God-fearin' Murikans who never drive w/o a license or insurance...

[AtomicKitten]

41. As a former resident of Southern California I say HELL YES.

If you don't have a license you can't get insurance. Uninsured motorists are a plague in So Cal.

[incapsulated]

42. I was watching an interview about this...

And when asked about whether this really results in them getting insured, a politician who was pushing for this couldn't come up with any real statistics, just vague generalities. I don't know if there is any truth to this, frankly.

[cuke]

64. Then maybe you could just THINK about it

How many undocumented aliens will get a license if they are prohibited from getting a license?

Answer = 0

How many undocumented aliens will get a license if they are NOT prohibited from getting a license?

Answer = greater than zero

[incapsulated]

70. But you need to weigh that possible gain...

Against the possible detriments. Especially if there is no evidence that this will make ANY meaningful difference in the number of insured.

A drivers license has become a national identity card, in effect.

Is that something we want to hand out to people who are here illegally? With no other documentation to even prove they are who they say they are? Who are here for who knows what reasons?

Reforming immigration is one thing.

Giving people who are here illegally, actively breaking the law, legal documentation just seems illogical.

Why not just give them citizenship? Should we just devalue everything so anyone can come to the country and just claim it? What is the point of an immigration policy at all, if it is not only not enforced, we treat those here illegally as if they were legal immigrants?

[cuke]

71. You're just being silly

"Especially if there is no evidence that this will make ANY meaningful difference in the number of insured."

If you are concerned about uninsured driver's, your opinion on this would be different. Its obvious your concern is with immigration, so don't try to act as if you're worried about uninsured drivers. As even you acknowledge, denying them licenses will result in more people driving w/o insurance.
The rest of your post is just as ridiculous

"A drivers license has become a national identity card, in effect."

No it hasn't so stop being so dishonest. You have made several inaccurate claims and they have been refuted without your responding to them or acknowledging your mistakes in any way

"Is that something we want to hand out to people who are here illegally?"

Straw man. No one said they should be "handed out". Try being honest

"With no other documentation to even prove they are who they say they are?"

Straw man. No one said they don't need proof of residency. Try being honest

" Who are here for who knows what reasons?"

Did you have to explain why you're here in order to get a driver's license?

"Giving people who are here illegally, actively breaking the law, legal documentation just seems illogical."

That's because you are not logical in any way. A driver's license is not "legal documentation" of anything but their ability to drive. And I notice you don't mind if other lawbreakers get a license. Only the immigrants.

"Why not just give them citizenship?"

OK

"Should we just devalue everything so anyone can come to the country and just claim it? What is the point of an immigration policy at all, if it is not only not enforced, we treat those here illegally as if they were legal immigrants?"

Please be honest. You've made this bullshit argument about "devaluing citizenship" and you've been called on it, and all you did was hide from the responses.

[incapsulated]

77. Golly, you are all hot under the collar aren't you?

Look, you played your hand when you said OK, just give them citizenship.

I do care about preserving citizenship as something meaningful in sovereign nation, you care more about the HOPE that this will provide some car insurance.

Immigration needs reform and it needs to be easier for people to be here LEGALLY. Just extending rights and privileges to those here illegally is basically giving up. Obviously you don't care. I do and so do a lot of people.

As an aside to your responses, such as "I don't have to explain why I'm here to get a license". Because you are a citizen of this country. You are a legal resident. Not an illegal immigrant.

Documentation of current residence is not identification of WHO YOU ARE. Like WE have to provide to get a license. In NY you need a social security card just to get a fucking learners permit.

[cuke]

78. So you've got nothing but personal attacks

If I look emotional, it's from laughter, not anger

"I do care about preserving citizenship..."

Then why did you pretend to care about car insurance? Being dishonest with one argument isn't going to make you look honest in another one.


"Just extending rights and privileges to those here illegally is basically giving up"

A license is neither a right, nor a privilige. It is the means by which our govt tries to keep our roads as safe as possible.


"As an aside to your responses, such as "I don't have to explain why I'm here to get a license". Because you are a citizen of this country. You are a legal resident. Not an illegal immigrant."

And more intellectual dishonesty from you. We give licenses to non-citizens. We give licenses to people who break the law (ie "illegals"). You don't mind giving licenses to non-citizens (because they haven't broken the law) but you also dont mind giving convicted criminals a license even though they break the law.

"Documentation of current residence is not identification of WHO YOU ARE. Like WE have to provide to get a license. In NY you need a social security card just to get a fucking learners permit."

More nonsense. A SS card does NOT prove WHO YOU ARE and is NOT needed to get a learner's permit. Plenty of people who have no SS# get licenses such as legal non-resident aliens.

Basically, you're own argument (if you'll ever have the guts to admit it) is that they shouldn't get a license because they broke the law, but you can't say that because then you'd have to support the revocation of anyone who ever broke a law.

[incapsulated]

83. Oh, for fucks sake

You were the one who started with the DISHONEST WRONG NO GUTS!!

Of course I am arguing this because I care about citizenship, this isn't about car insurance, it's about giving illegal aliens drivers licenses, who is being dishonest now?

There is a huge and obvious difference between someone who "broke the law" and went to jail, and someone who is actively breaking law, like a person on the run and wanted by the police. Doing time for a crime doesn't strip you of citizenship the rest of your life. Someone who is here illegally is breaking the law just by being here.

A SS card is only ONE of the things you need to provide, you also need to provide proof of age. These ARE the ways we "identify" who people are, we don't store our DNA and check it. Here I will give you a link, you are talking out of your ass:

Proofs of Identity and Date of Birth

With the increase in requirements for public security, the DMV frequently updates the list of acceptable proofs of identity and date of birth. Carefully read the requirements for proofs of identity and date of birth. Make sure that you have the proofs required before you apply for any DMV document.

What You Need to Know to Apply for a Learner Permit:

You must show your Social Security card. If you are not eligible for a Social Security Number, you must get a letter from the Social Security Administration that indicates that you are not eligible for a Social Security Number. You must show the letter to the DMV.

You must have proof of identity. The proof must have a total value of at least six points and must prove your date of birth. If you do not have 6 points of proof of identity, your parent or your legal guardian can complete form MV-45 at a DMV office and show proof of identity.

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/license.htm

FYI, the SS# is only 4 points of identity, you need two more than that and yes, this is for a LEARNERS PERMIT.

Look, despite all your hysterical reactions, I am not all upset by this. NYC, as I said, is almost an Amnesty City. Most illegal immigrants are good and hardworking people. I would like it if they had a way to work here LEGALLY instead of just "turning a blind eye" and giving privileges, YES PRIVILEGES, to anyone who comes here.

If you came here from France, you would have to show more ID just to get into the country than someone here illegally to get a drivers license.

[cuke]

102. I appreciate the straight forwardness

AT least now I can address your real concerns

"There is a huge and obvious difference between someone who "broke the law" and went to jail, and someone who is actively breaking law, like a person on the run and wanted by the police. Doing time for a crime doesn't strip you of citizenship the rest of your life. Someone who is here illegally is breaking the law just by being here."

Revocation of a driver's license is not the punishment for any crime. People who speed do not have their licenses revoked. Murderers do not have their licenses revoked. You can whine all you want about illegality, but until you apply that standard equally, you will not appear credible. You claim it's about illegality, but it's only the illegality of immigration laws that seem deserving of denying someone a license.

"A SS card is only ONE of the things you need to provide, you also need to provide proof of age. These ARE the ways we "identify" who people are, we don't store our DNA and check it. Here I will give you a link, you are talking out of your ass:"

You own quote says " If you are not eligible for a Social Security Number, you must get a letter from the Social Security Administration that indicates that you are not eligible for a Social Security Number. You must show the letter to the DMV."

You don't need a SS card to get a license. It's you that's talking out of an ass

"If you came here from France, you would have to show more ID just to get into the country than someone here illegally to get a drivers license."

And what is wrong with that? You think it should be easier to enter the country than it is to get a driver's license?

[BootinUp]

88. They have ID's already, they are just fake ones is all

Other than the cost to do this, I don't really see a downside.

[incapsulated]

89. It's a state approved form of identification

Normally, you would have to be here legally to get this. Used to be, if they found you here illegally, they wouldn't offer you a state approved ID, they would send you to Immigration.

That is really the point. Instead of reforming immigration so this is done in fashion that is legal for everyone concerned and protects, yes, national security and the rights of immigrants not to be abused btw, we are now just start treating people here illegally the same way we treat those who went through all the shit of legal immigration. Why bother, then. Just open the borders.

[BootinUp]

90. They are open (the borders) for all practical purposes

The real solution is to document them, and then treat them different, via tax laws, benefits, etc. Tell me what I am missing.

[incapsulated]

93. Ah, now you make my point

What you are saying, though, Jim, is open Amnesty for anyone who sets foot in the US. Just come here, get a residence and we will give you all the documentation you need.

I'm not ready to go there, at all.

I want the process reformed so that people can more easily come and work here legally, with real ID of who they are from their own country when they do. Not, start a new life, whoever you are, and wherever you are from, with a whole new identity in the USA, and we will give you all the documents you need.

[BootinUp]

95. The open borders problem

is a fact we can agree on, I am not saying I agree to having it that way. I just don't think physical barriers will work. Also I think the federal government has left the states on their own to deal with this.

So a possible improvement to the current hands over eyes policy from the states point of view is to at least get some better means of tracking them going. What the federal government decides to do is anybodies guess. The ID could be different from a standard license in some way so the government at least knows they are illegally in country.

The only way to slow the invasion is to make it less profitable for them to leave their country and come here illegally. I don't think enforcement via physical means alone is sufficient.

[slackmaster]

45. Giving people licenses doesn't guarantee they'll get insurance

Plenty of people with valid licenses don't have it.

[YvonneCa]

49. Not in California...

...you can't get a license or renew one without proof of valid insurance.

[tammywammy]

63. In Texas

You have to have it as well. But your driver's license is good for years at a time. So, I guess you can get insurance for a month when you get a license or renew it, but other than getting pulled over and showing it, there's no check to see if you always have it.

[slackmaster]

68. No, you can't register your vehicle without proof of insurance

You don't have to own a vehicle to get a license.

With no vehicle, there is nothing to insure so you can't even get insurance.

You do have to have a driver's license in order to get insurance.

Another funny twist is that you don't have to have a license to BUY a vehicle. You just can't register it (or get it insured).

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. You can't get insurance without a license

[slackmaster]

44. No with an explanation

They shouldn't get driver's licenses that are not easily distinguishable from those issued to lawful residents.

Their licenses should be clearly marked to prevent them from being used for voter identification, to apply for any kind of government benefits, or to buy guns.

[tammywammy]

65. Good Suggestions

[DrFunkenstein]

48. They Are Allowed to Have Mortgages, Why Not Cars?

I say bring them into the fold as much as possible, because it only helps the economy and our federal revenues. Let them pay taxes, let them become responsible members of society on the road to citizenship.

I'm tired of letting racist conservatives determine the debate by playing the issue from all kinds of weird angles (terrorism, drugs, crime, etc.).

As a New Yorker, I know that the undocumented workers I've met are some of the hardest working and polite people I've ever come across. The vast majority are just trying to help out their families at great personal sacrifice as they are systematically abused by businesses that exploit their fear of standing up for the minimum levels of decent treatment.

[MrSlayer]

61. Sure, when they show up to get it, deport them.

Sounds like a plan to me.

[Hippo_Tron]

101. I think people will catch on to that one pretty quickly

[MrSlayer]

121. Probably.

But you'll get some of them.

[goodhue]

66. I want all drivers to get drivers licenses

eom

[slick8790]

67. Indeed.

Giving drivers licenses to people who are not here legally is an implicit endorsement of coming here illegally. "NO, WE WANT YOU TO SPEND YEARS WAITING TO COME HERE LEGALLY TO ENJOY THE BENEFITS OF LEGAL ALIENSHIP....buuuuut, if you happen to be here illegally, you can enjoy some of the privaleges anyway"

[cuke]

74. BS

A driver's license is a driver's license. It's not an "implicit endorsement" of anything aside from your driving abilities.

And "illegal" has nothing to do with it. If it did, you would want the licenses of speeders to be revoked permanently. Speeding is illegal

[Romulox]

76. A drivers licenses allows you to board a plane, vote, cross the border, etc.

Of course it's a privilege of citizenship!

[cuke]

79. Non-citizens can't get on a plane?

How do all those tourists from Europe get home? Swim?

Getting on a plane is not a privilige of citizenship. Same with the other things you mentioned

You need IDENTIFICATION to get on a plane. That can be a driver's license. It can also be a passport. Or it can be a number of documents as described on the HSA's website

[Romulox]

84. Non-citizens cannot board a plane under an assumed identity, or without documentation, no...

Getting on a plane with the identity of a US citizen is most certainly a privilege of citizenship.

[cuke]

107. You don't need a DL to get on a plane

You were wrong, and you should admit it instead of "moving the goal posts"

"Getting on a plane with the identity of a US citizen is most certainly a privilege of citizenship."

What does that even mean? Do you think people are coming to US so they can get on a plane "with the identity of a US citizen"? Do you really think that the Freedom to Travel mentioned in the Constitution is a "privilige" limited to citizens?

[LanternWaste]

86. I can't do any of that unless I have a DL?

I can't do any of that unless I have a DL? I don't think that's the case....

[incapsulated]

87. You better have ID before you get on a plane or enter another country

And a DL or passport is the most commonly used.

[cuke]

108. But you don't need a DL.

Pavulon said you need a DL.

P said this to further the ridiculous idea that travel is a "privilige" reserved for citizens

[Romulox]

94. LOL. Are you proposing to hand out PASSPORTS to illegal immigrants instead? nt

[cuke]

110. No, just pointing out your mistake

You claimed that getting on an airplane was a privilige of citizenship. It's not. Non-citizens get on airplanes every day

[Romulox]

115. Now you're just being silly!

Illegal immigrants do not routinely get onto planes in US airports as passengers (though airlines routinely use them to clean the planes.) They will be able to do so easily with a valid driver's license.

[cuke]

117. You blew it

I said "non-citizens", not "undocumented aliens".

You said that getting on a plane was a "privilige of citizenship" and cited the need to show a DL to board a plane. You were wrong on all counts, and instead of admitting it like an adult, you are trying to distract with a dictionary flame over a word I never posted.

"They will be able to do so easily with a valid driver's license."

OMG!!!! Mommy hold me, I'm scared!!

[slick8790]

114. Do you dispute that citizenship has been a classic requirement to get a driver's license?

By giving an undocumented alien an official state document, you ARE implicitly saying it is ok not to follow legal channels, and that they can get things even if they break the law.

[cuke]

120. Yes

because it is NOT a classic requirement to get a DL. Plenty of non-citizens (who are here legally) have DL's.

"they can get things even if they break the law."

So you are for revoking the DLs of anyone who speeds? Speeding is breaking the law

[BootinUp]

80. I voted yes. But I have no illusions

that this issue will be resolved in the near future...

[lojasmo]

91. Absolutely. Proven to have significant benefits. EOM

[NMMNG]

92. Who exactly is an "illegal alien"

Watch and learn.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nN1kp1ggWyM

[goodhue]

103. The Pinky Show rocks!

must see tv

[NMMNG]

113. That's the first time I've seen it

And that was by far the best explanation I've seen on "illegal" immigration.

[proud2BlibKansan]

105. They need a license so they can get insurance.

I am very much in favor of them having insurance, so whatever it takes for that to happen I will support.

[Romulox]

116. Why would they get insurance if they aren't required to follow other laws?

We "can't" enforce laws against identity theft and tax fraud, but illegal aliens will all line up to get insurance for their cars? :silly:

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. And they pay taxes too

They aren't a bunch of uncivilized hooligans.

[amandabeech]

128. If they don't register a car or drive with stolen plates,

they won't get insurance.

You need a driver's license to get insurance, but you also need a vehicle to insure.

You do not need insurance to get a driver's license. Plenty of people who don't own cars have licenses. Me, for one. I live within walking distance of the D.C. Metro instead.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

118. Encouraging people to stay illegally is clearly a bad idea.

My thoughts on immigration are:

:-I have seen arguments that immigration in itself is either good or bad for a country; I suspect there are both benefits and costs.

:-Immigration is clearly good for the immigrant in most cases.

:-Illegal immigration is clearly much worse for a country than legal immigration - illegal immigrants don't pay tax, they depress wages more than legal ones, and they provide a very fertile compost for organised crime to flourish in.

:-America's restrictions on legal immigration are currently too harsh, given how much of its wealth depends on trade deals with abroad.

:-It is neither morally justifiable nor practically feasible to deport 10 million people, or even most of them

:-It is both morally feasible and justifiable to deport a non-trivial (but probably small) fraction of that number.

:-Any form of amnesty which means that someone who has immigrated illegally ends up better off than someone who has applied to join the queue legally is clearly unjust.

:-Nevertheless, such an amnesty will have to be offered, anyhow, because not doing so is simply not practical - see above.

:-"Discrimination" against illegal immigrants has more in common with discrimination against pickpockets or trespassers than against women or blacks.

:-I think that the least worst solution would be to liberalise America's immigration laws, give all illegal immigrants already in the country an opportunity to apply on an equal footing with others, accept most of them, fail those who have e.g. non-trivial criminal records, and then deport all those who didn't apply and all those who failed, and crack down hard on subsequent illegal immigration.

:-Encouraging people to come & stay illegally is, I think, the worst of all worlds.

[1932]

123. I don't think State DMVs should be the henchman of the Federal INS

[trayfoot]

127. This is the Achilles Heel

of the Democrats in 2008. If the leadership and other prominent dems (Spitzer) continue to push this amnesty agenda (legitimizing the status of illegals), against the expressed desires of the American people, they WILL pay the price at the polls in '08.

[EffieBlack]

132. That's what people said about the Democrats' support for civil rights in the 50s and 60s n/t

It may not be politically popular to stand up for unpopular people, but it is the right thing to do - and history always vindicate those who have the courage to stand up in the face of demagoguery, fear, jingoism and scapegoating.

This may be the achilles heal of the Democratic Party - if by that you mean that they may lose some support from certain quarters. But those who refuse to give in to the Lou Dobbsian anti-immigrant "let's just call them all illegals" hysteria are truly representing the ideals of this party and will eventually - and probably not in the too-distant future - be correctly seen as being on the right side of the debate and history.

[uppityperson]

130. Of course they should have drivers licenses, anyone who drives should.

Would that make them documented then?

[TankLV]

133. Absofukcinglutely NOT! Spitzer has gone insane...

What is wrong with him?!?!